View Full Version : Why are American kids so spoiled? - NY Times
I found this very interesting and thought you all might too!
"
With the exception of the imperial offspring of the Ming dynasty and the dauphins of pre-Revolutionary France, contemporary American kids may represent the most indulged young people in the history of the world. It’s not just that they’ve been given unprecedented amounts of stuff—clothes, toys, cameras, skis, computers, televisions, cell phones, PlayStations, iPods. (The market for Burberry Baby and other forms of kiddie “couture” has reportedly been growing by ten per cent a year.) They’ve also been granted unprecedented authority. “Parents want their kids’ approval, a reversal of the past ideal of children striving for their parents’ approval,” Jean Twenge and W. Keith Campbell, both professors of psychology, have written. In many middle-class families, children have one, two, sometimes three adults at their beck and call. This is a social experiment on a grand scale, and a growing number of adults fear that it isn’t working out so well: according to one poll, commissioned by
Time and CNN, two-thirds of American parents think that their children are spoiled."
http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2012/07/02/120702crbo_books_kolbert?currentPage=all (http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2012/07/02/120702crbo_books_kolbert?currentPage=all)
awakenedsoul
7-3-12, 2:49pm
mira,
Thanks for posting that! Hysterical! So true...I taught dance to children for 30 years and stopped for the same reasons. I've been saying for years that it makes such a difference when children have chores, help with the siblings, learn to cook and clean, etc...
I cooked from a young age and my mother taught me how to run a household. I loved it. Other mothers hired me from age 13 on to babysit, because they could see that I was a little homemaker. It was great for my confidence and self esteem. I used the money to pay for my dance classes.
I completely agree with that. I work with someone who is raising children this way. They have literally anything they want. IPods, I Phones, laptops, cars, you name it. One even got a second car after destroying his first one in a DUI accident two weeks after he got his license.
And it goes beyond just that. If anyone dares criticize her children she unleashes on them, no matter how deserved the criticism is. Her son recently got told that he wasn't being called back to work at a local restaurant because of his bossy and self entitled attitude. She tried to sabotage this restaurant for all she was worth in retaliation involving everyone in her extended family in an effort to do so.
Her daughter got in trouble in religion class, and then made a mockery of the punishment she was given. By her own admission she did this to piss the teacher off. So the teacher punished her further. Mom went into action emailing, calling and writing letters to the priest, and anyone further up who would listen in an effort to get the teacher fired. Her attitude was that her daughter was smarter than anyone else in the class and the teacher just doesn't like her daughter.
And when her other son couldn't balance the cash drawer where he worked for two days in a row, she went to his job and and checked and rechecked to try to fix it, on both days. He's just graduated from high school. It's kind of weird to have your mother come to your job to try an fix things for you.
What she's creating is kids that cannot function without her intervention. She constantly reinforces the notion that they are incapable of making mistakes and if someone thinks they did, it's the accuser's fault. They are going to have a rude awakening in the real world. They'll likely find it impossible to maintain the standard of living accustomed to because from what I've seen, they don't have the ambition to try and earn it. Mom will just fix it.
I'm not arguing that childrearing practices aren't evolving, along with the rest of our culture, but rotten kids and terrible parenting have always existed (along with the rest of us rolling our eyes at it). Look at the little brother in Daisy Miller, written in the late 1800s, for instance, who could come right out of a modern middle school. I was just reading Mr. Midshipman Easy, which was a novel written in the early 1800s, and there is a scene of a kid tantrum there that is as bad as anything in the New York Times article. (Of course, the teacher's solution in that novel is to cane the heck out of him....) Those depictions are fiction, of course, but the novelists obviously meant to connect with readers' own experiences. I do think parenting styles and expectations of both children and parents are becoming more diverse and changing very quickly. The same parents who are accused of being "helicopters" are operating in an environment where many people get uncomfortable if children spend even five minutes not under adult supervision. No wonder some people get it wrong...
What she's creating is kids that cannot function without her intervention. She constantly reinforces the notion that they are incapable of making mistakes and if someone thinks they did, it's the accuser's fault. They are going to have a rude awakening in the real world. They'll likely find it impossible to maintain the standard of living accustomed to because from what I've seen, they don't have the ambition to try and earn it. Mom will just fix it.
:( Mom has failed at one of the most important tasks of parenting -- preparing the fledgelings to leave the nest and survive on their own. Unfortunately, this failure likely will extend to her kids if/when they marry and suffer because their spouses aren't willing to be the parent(s) they didn't have. And if they do end up having any children, the inappropriate "normal" in which they grew up likely will be perpetuated. What a shame...
rodeosweetheart
7-3-12, 4:42pm
It always seems to come back to Mom-bashing with the topic of "spoiled kids." No broader cultural pressures on Mom to produce the perfect offspring, or else she is a complete failure.
I know two incredibly wonderful mothers whose kids are now grown. One robbed a bank and one committed suicide. Think there's a lot more going on here than just the input of Mom, and it just seems to perpetuate the women hating that is behind so much of this social commentary that we see in the popular media.
I agree with AmeliaJane. It's not just parenting, it's society. Society now believes so strongly in not allowing children to do anything, that it's a catch 22. If you let your children ride their bikes to the park to play, they are unsupervised, and you, the parent are now negligent.
awakenedsoul
7-3-12, 5:27pm
That's a good point. We used to ride our bikes everywhere when I was a kid. We rode the bus to the mall, hiked in the fields, made tree forts...
Also, back then it was drilled into us that "we better behave." If I was doing something wrong, that mother who drove by and saw me would call my mother. My mother would thank her and I would be punished. I knew there were eyes on me everywhere. I kind of liked it, though.
Now it's incorrect to "correct other people's children."
That's a good point. We used to ride our bikes everywhere when I was a kid. We rode the bus to the mall, hiked in the fields, made tree forts...
Also, back then it was drilled into us that "we better behave." If I was doing something wrong, that mother who drove by and saw me would call my mother. My mother would thank her and I would be punished. I knew there were eyes on me everywhere. I kind of liked it, though.
Now it's incorrect to "correct other people's children."
True true. When I was young, it wasn't uncommon for younger children than now to babysit, to mow lawns, help with common chores. Children aren't even allowed unsupervised time now, there is no trust of children. No building of character.
ApatheticNoMore
7-3-12, 6:47pm
Helping with chores is beneficial, we never did that. We did get guilt tripped about being spoiled all the time though and looking back I can't at all see why - since it was such a modest middle class life, at least in terms of material things. Maybe it was spoiled compared to starvation and deprivatation but that's an odd standard, compared to a monk who has took a vow of poverty maybe but that too is an odd standard. Caused major coming of age crisises where I went into hard rebellion in wanting THINGS (material things, darn it things, I should have things, I'm entitled to things, THINGS!). That all seems so pointless now too, it's just that all the guilt tripping was also so pointless. I think spoiled was just at the end of the day another epithet to hurl at children (but of course). Chores OTOH really do have some benefits.
Gardenarian
7-3-12, 7:18pm
"...That’s why no generation of teens and young adults has ever been as self-centered as this one. Take it from journalist Peter Wyden, the cover of whose book on the subject depicts a child lounging on a divan eating grapes while Mom fans him and Dad holds an umbrella to protect him from the sun: It’s become “tougher and tougher to say ‘no’ [to children] and make it stick,” he insists.
Or listen to the lament of a parent who blames progressive child development experts for the fact that her kids now seem to believe “they have priority over everything and everybody.”
Or consider a pointed polemic published in The Atlantic. Sure, the author concedes, kids have always been pleasure seekers, but longtime teachers report that what we’re currently witnessing “is different from anything we have ever seen in the young before.” Parents teach “nothing wholeheartedly” and things come so easily to children nowadays that they fail to develop any self-discipline. Forget about traditional values: Today, it’s just a “culte du moi.”
Powerful stuff. Except now that I think about it, those three indictments may not offer the best argument against today’s parents and their offspring. That’s because they were published in 1962, 1944, and 1911, respectively." (from Alfie Kohn) (http://www.alfiekohn.org/articles.htm#null)
Same as it ever was.
OK, I am going to sound like a grouch. Many people in their 30 and 40's have a sense of entitlement that blows me out the window at times. They seemingly believe that they are entitled to regular wage increases (and all the benefits that the older generation gained in lieu of wage increases), plus large houses and annual vacations to exotic locations, largely done on credit. Even commercials talk about "you deserve it".
DH and I saved to able afford any of our holidays, focused on paying off our mortgage and living within our income which did vary over the years.
I read an article some time ago that children today were the family pets not contributing members of the family.
Of course, I also see many exceptional independent thinkers who don't fit the model presented above.
Razz, that sense of entitlement certainly didn't start with people in their 30s and 40s. We learned it from the Baby Boomers. You know, the Me Generation?
Regular wage increases go back further than us, it has always been a rallying cry at union strikes. Not denying that I belong to an entitled generation, I just don't think it started with us.
Square peg, I have been thinking further on this topic.
I wonder if the entitlement started when WW2 was over and there was the huge rush to start the economy so as not to relapse back into the Depression of the 30's. As the consumer world grew, jobs increased, employment increased, availability of money increased until the late 70's. I can remember that suddenly vacations that only the truly rich formerly could afford, friends started doing it so you are probably right about the Boomers being the start of the change. If I was totally honest, it probably was true for my era as well as I was born just before the war ended. I remember thinking that I wanted to travel through Europe and did with my kids to a limited extent, another family member did. It was a time of "anything was possible".
Unfortunately, the whole mindset seemingly changed from "anything was possible" to "I deserved it" and "I deny my children nothing and you better not deny them anything".
Wedding gifts for us were a salad bowl, wedding showers were for teacups and homemade doilies. Now it is a cash cow of store registries.
I have to say though that my generation did not consider their children 'the miracle of the world' and from an early age they were raised to know hard work and to be self sufficient and self reliant.
The attitude of some parents today is different - their children are rare miracles, baby showers are insane with listing on "Toys to Go", they are indulged and kept occupied every hour of the day as others have mentioned on these boards. I see many young people at after school work who are charming and capable so I do think that the "indulged children" is only a part of the total but they sure are attracting a lot of attention.
I don't think it's a lack of trust in children that has lead to the loss of childhood (Last Child in the Woods -- book. very good.). It's fear of predation. Look at what women are constantly fed about the dangers of leaving their children unsupervised. Even I carry it. My mother told me while I was pregnant, over and over (and I grew up with this idea). You have to watch your baby ALL THE TIME. People want to STEAL blond babies and SELL THEM TO ON THE BLACK MARKET! and if you have a girl, it will be SEXUAL SLAVERY that she gets sold to. So only ever leave her with people whom you trust. ANd don't let her travel to the following 93 other countries. . .
Honestly, I was compltely raised with the idea that I would be kidnapped at any moment by random strangers and used and/or sold into sexual slavery because I was blond. My parents seriously have that fear.
I've started to realize that, in fact, it's not reality. I've learned that this sort of situation is very rare. And while sexual abuse does happen, there are things that you can do to prevent a child (and your family) from being 'groomed' by predators, so that the kids can protect themselves (Protecting the Gift -- book).
So, part of the reason why kids aren't allowed to just jump on a bus, or play in the woods, or go for a bike ride is because of this *abject fear* of their child being harmed/taken. And, i've felt that. I lost DS in an indoor play ground, and just about lost my mind. It took me 20 minutes to find him -- happily playing in a corner that I couldn't see into when outside of the space (and couldn't FIT into to get there). Luckily, another kid (about age 7) found him for me, and said "I think he's in there." And described his hair, eyes, dress, bandaid on his head, etc. Ok, good. I didn't just loose my kid. But it scared the crap out of me, and brought back that old fear of "never take your eyes off of your child" even though I knew we were in a very controlled environment.
I admit, i have trouble taking my eyes off of my child unless I feel that we are in a completely controlled environment. An indoor play area no longer counts.
Of course, my boy is only just nearly 4.
----
Aside from that, I don't really know about or understand the rest of it. Yes, there are entitled kids out there. THere are also lots and lots of parents doing a good job.
I didn't find the story all that enlightening per se, but I did see some of DH's "habits" in there -- which creates more work and conflict for him. The shoes thing really rang true for me in re: DS and DH. I've seen that play out. DS doesn't even try it with me. I just repeat myself 3 times and walk out the front door, which really gets his attention and then he puts his shoes on and we go. And that's sort of a "last chance" for him, and it happens perhaps once every blue moon.
I think these articles are really just a little bit nuts.
Perhaps a variation on "mommy wars" -- supposedly we "mommies" start them, but it's usually an article like this that does.
I agree with the pervasive attitude that the kid is the boss in too many families, rather than the other way around. And I also think that many--often two-income professionals--tend to treat their kids like "little adults" rather than at the appropriate level of their maturity. For instance, a friend of mine was telling me about her interaction with her 3 year old daughter and a simple instruction like "don't touch the stove" was an entire dissertation on thermodynamics. I was a day care provider for a kid like that, whose parents were late-in-life parents and both lawyers, and that kid was the most neurotic kid I ever saw at age 18 months. He could rattle off his doctor's phone number but he was anxious from morning to night.
And that whole "helicopter mom" complex is real--come on! I don't know if people feel they are failing their children if they don't carry them every step of the way in their lives, or if they don't believe their children CAN do this stuff? I remember one time my grandmother-in-law wrote out some bills and then said, "Well, I'm off to the post box." It was a bit of a walk away, and she was elderly, so I said, why don't you have [18-year old Grandson] run to the box with the mail for you? And she said, "Oh, I couldn't trust him with that!" Now, this grandson, my brother-in-law is almost functionally handicapped in his inability to make his own choices and do the simplest of tasks.
It always seems to come back to Mom-bashing with the topic of "spoiled kids." No broader cultural pressures on Mom to produce the perfect offspring, or else she is a complete failure.
I know two incredibly wonderful mothers whose kids are now grown. One robbed a bank and one committed suicide. Think there's a lot more going on here than just the input of Mom, and it just seems to perpetuate the women hating that is behind so much of this social commentary that we see in the popular media.
The Mommy Wars, mostly. It gets old fast.
Can you tell that this thread has made me think?;)
We have had such a privileged existence over the past 60 years as result of cheap oil to supply our every need cost-effectively. Rather than living in the state of real fear that most people in less developed countries face on a regular basis, we need to invent our fears and the media feeds them for their personal gain. We, as a general comment on society, have not developed the daily skills to detect, recognize and cope with unsafe conditions beyond alarm systems and total control of our environment.
I realized how out of touch I had become when I read the story of human fecal waste issues around the world (cannot remember the name of the book) and how male predators waited until women had to go by walking some distance to a ditch or primitive latrine and men pounced on them and violet assault resulted. How these women developed defence methods to cope and how NGO's built these fancy systems but did not train locals in maintenance or help resolve the predator issues so the waste systems provided women no assistance and were neglected. Enormous waste of donor $$$$$.
We expect life to be safe and perfect and under our complete control. It simply must be. WE demand it.
A very wise SIL once told me that "That's life" when she talked about her challenges over her lifetime. I call it "Life happens". Societally, we are devastated with challenges and tragic happenings. They are hard but simply part of life. Deal with it.
I agree with AmeliaJane. It's not just parenting, it's society. Society now believes so strongly in not allowing children to do anything, that it's a catch 22. If you let your children ride their bikes to the park to play, they are unsupervised, and you, the parent are now negligent.
It's a different world today. When I was a kid (probably many of you all, too), we played outside in the sun for hours, never hindered by SPF 500 sunblock or the knowledge that we were courting melanoma. When I was a kid, no doctor or nurse ever asked me if I "felt safe at home" (I did). When I was a kid, the TV went off or I was in my bed before the TV shows for more mature audiences went on, and there certainly weren't cartoons like 'The Simpsons' and 'Family Guy' pushing the envelope during "kiddie hours". JonBenét Ramsey was an outlier, not one of enough kiddie beauty queens to support seasons of reality shows. Without deteriorating into a "get offa my lawn" rant, I'll just say that, in some respects, I agree society puts more pressure on kids and parents than there used to be. Still, parents have tools available to them that their parents and grandparents did not (parental leave, the Internet, etc.). And they still are the ones who should set the expectations, not the kids. Too many parents almost seem afraid of disappointing or frustrating their kids.
And, for what it's worth, I hope my comments were not taken as "mom-bashing". I mentioned her specifically because the OP never mentioned a dad. If dad is present, IMHO, he has neglected his duties as well.
Square Peg
7-4-12, 12:17pm
Razz, I agree with you on that. I think the entitlement did start in earnest post WWII, when suddenly even a high school diploma could equal enough money to buy a house. The Baby Boomers were the first generation to be the target of marketers and Scientific Research from birth. And yes, cheap oil, the need to use all the stuff made during the war, and parents who were raised during the depression all factored in, i believe. As those Baby Boomers grew, our access to more and more products grew, the need for more and more education also grew as competition got fiercer. Those baby boomers spawned my generation and we really wanted for nothing, but still had a lot of independence. But, we were expected to go to college AND we were raised in the environment that told us (especially by the TV) that we were special. We grew up, got hyper educated, and have always lived under the shadow of the boomers, who have told us (or were telling themselves, but we were listening) that we can have anything we wanted! We waited until we had established careers (well, not me, but my peers) to marry, so we were used to doing thing a certain way. Then we had babies and so of course want to take the educated approach and so w go to get educated and so we go to the Barnes and Noble OMG!! have you seen the amount of books in the baby aisle!?!?!? Fear and anxiety on the book shelf right there! If you don't play Mozart in the womb, your kid will not go to Harvard; if you vaccinate, your kid will die; breastfeed or your kid will grow up obese; SPANK! DON'T SPANK!! Use this discipline method! Use this discipline method! No, this one!! Add to all of this the suburban lifestyle that gets more and more exceptional and competitive, and parents that are used to succeeding in everything they do (remember the great education and well established career) and you get an anxiety stew!
Square Peg
7-4-12, 12:31pm
Zoebird, I don't know if we are the same age or not, but I thought my mom was the only person that actually instilled this fear in people! I am 41, my mom is 81. Whenever we would go to the big suburban mall, she would say, "Stay right with me, otherwise a guy will come up behind you, stick a needle in your back to drug you, kidnap you and take you to China to become a prostitute" There was so much fear there: He was coming up from behind so I couldn't see him, I was drugged and helpless, I was taken to China where I couldn't even speak the language, and the thought of prostitution at age 10 was terrifying!
I have mixed feelings on the Protecting the Gift. I believe it was written with the best of intentions and has truly helped a lot of parents feel safer and allow their kids more space. However, I have also seen it abused, because any weird feeling a person has can be seem as instinct. I remember reading this thread (not on this board, on a parenting board) written by a mother who had a weird feeling about a woman because this woman (an older woman, grandmotherly age) was being kind to her son. So many people on the board jumped in with, "Oh, trust your instincts, if you are concerned, than you have reason to be!" We can't always tell a person's intention, especially if that other person is from a different culture or has a disability, or even is from a different generation. And once we can call our fears and prejudices instinct, they become sacred and not to be messed with, at least for some people, and those people are often the ones who would benefit most from that book! Which is a sad conundrum.
Did you know that some parks do not allow adults to sit at the park if not accompanying a child? That kind of law makes me sad. It further segregates people and feeds into the notion that the world is a scary place.
It's the culture we live in nowadays, everyone (working-class) trying to out-do one another and be something they're not, so let's pass that down to our kids so our kids can shine brighter than the other neighbourhood kids.
Square Peg
7-4-12, 12:47pm
Zoebird, another thing is the fear of CPS. Whether real or imagined, we parents have been instilled with the fear that any bump, any burn, leaving the kid home alone, letting him roam town on his bicycle, any of these things can result in a knock on the door.
Catherine, yes to the small adult thing, although we are totally and completely guilty of this. I think maybe it is because dh and I are both youngest children and weren't around kids very much. Also we have really smart kids who are on the autism spectrum, and so process information differently. When your 2nd grader is reading college textbooks (and reading them thoroughly in a day), the approach is different. But I remember once we were at the zoo and our oldest was about 2. Maybe even younger. And dh was explaining to him all about tigers and where they live and what they eat and on and on. There was a young family standing next to us and the dad said to his 2 year old, "Yeah! Big kitty!" After we left the exhibit, I pointed it out to DH. We laughed and it became our tagline for when we thought the other was going over the kid's head. "Big Kitty"
"...That’s why no generation of teens and young adults has ever been as self-centered as this one. Take it from journalist Peter Wyden, the cover of whose book on the subject depicts a child lounging on a divan eating grapes while Mom fans him and Dad holds an umbrella to protect him from the sun: It’s become “tougher and tougher to say ‘no’ [to children] and make it stick,” he insists.
Or listen to the lament of a parent who blames progressive child development experts for the fact that her kids now seem to believe “they have priority over everything and everybody.”
Or consider a pointed polemic published in The Atlantic. Sure, the author concedes, kids have always been pleasure seekers, but longtime teachers report that what we’re currently witnessing “is different from anything we have ever seen in the young before.” Parents teach “nothing wholeheartedly” and things come so easily to children nowadays that they fail to develop any self-discipline. Forget about traditional values: Today, it’s just a “culte du moi.”
Powerful stuff. Except now that I think about it, those three indictments may not offer the best argument against today’s parents and their offspring. That’s because they were published in 1962, 1944, and 1911, respectively." (from Alfie Kohn) (http://www.alfiekohn.org/articles.htm#null)
Same as it ever was.
Exactly. Nothing to see, folks. Move along.
I'm 36.
Yes, fear of CPS is at issue.
I also think that the 'kids ruling the house' phenomenon is really just a lack of awareness/knowledge on what boundaries are needed. That's what I see, anyway. But you can't really advice people on parenting; it goes awry.
I agree it isn't just the parents, but you also can't exclude the parents from the issue entirely. And I also think this did start a long time ago which is how we as a society got into as much debt as we did. Somewhere along the line we got sold on the notion that we should have what we want whether we can afford it or not. That in itself is a sense of entitlement.
But one thing that I started noticing a few years ago is very different. There are a growing number of ads on TV for cars that are based on what your kids will want you to drive. Marketer's clearly saw a shift in the decision making process for adults making purchases and geared their advertising approach to it. You'll see it a lot in food advertising as well. It makes me nuts when I see ads where the mom is the hero because she was able to get three kinds of chicken in one bucket rather than disappoint one of her kids with crispy instead of original. Oh horrors. We I was growing up we were happy to have KFC at all. No one asked us about our preference.
awakenedsoul
7-5-12, 3:51pm
I agree it isn't just the parents, but you also can't exclude the parents from the issue entirely. And I also think this did start a long time ago which is how we as a society got into as much debt as we did. Somewhere along the line we got sold on the notion that we should have what we want whether we can afford it or not. That in itself is a sense of entitlement.
But one thing that I started noticing a few years ago is very different. There are a growing number of ads on TV for cars that are based on what your kids will want you to drive. Marketer's clearly saw a shift in the decision making process for adults making purchases and geared their advertising approach to it. You'll see it a lot in food advertising as well. It makes me nuts when I see ads where the mom is the hero because she was able to get three kinds of chicken in one bucket rather than disappoint one of her kids with crispy instead of original. Oh horrors. We I was growing up we were happy to have KFC at all. No one asked us about our preference.
Me neither. "This is what we're having." My mom was an excellent cook. We loved everything she made. I think it's also technology. When I taught ballet, one 11 year old went out in the hallway and phoned her father on her cell phone because I had disciplined her. (I think I told her to stop talking.) The father drove in to the studio, ( on a workday,) burst into the door, and started yelling at me. It's really unbelievable how things have changed. I gave a lecture after he left, and the little girl hung her head. She was one of my best students, too. She was highly intelligent and incredibly talented, but very manipulative. At the end of the year, her mother gave me roses!
There's another article by the same author on Tiger Mothers. It talks about how Chinese mothers parent as compared to Western mothers. I guess my mom was more like the Chinese.
We live by "This is what we are having" too. Most families here are, but man, so many families run short-order kitchens. It's amazing. I dont' know how they manage.
I read the Tiger Moms articles as well (haven't read the book), but I didn't see a ton of great qualities. I felt like the parent was making too many decisions for the child, and that the child was 'overscheduled' based on the descriptions in the articles.
We do "free range parenting (http://good.net.nz/magazine/fifteen/features/free-range-kids-happy-parents)" and "slow parenting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_parenting)" with "unconditional parenting (http://www.positive-parenting-ally.com/unconditional-parenting.html)" (which is discipline without punishments/rewards). And of course, with steiner and buddhist underpinnings.
It's working well so far. :)
I am definitely a "this is what we are having for dinner" mom too. I have a jar where people can put their suggestions for meals and I do try to work in suggestions within a week or two of them being suggested. I suppose if it were something off-the-wall I would probably say no entirely, but who knows. Anyone requesting lutefisk would be out of luck, but I'm adventurous otherwise. :) It gives them some input and gives me some ideas when I'm short on them, but it's delayed gratification, to be sure. Tomorrow's grilled pizza is a request item from a week or two ago.
I don't know what I'd call our parenting style really. Our kids have routines, rules, chores and expectations, but also quite a bit of freedom to run around and explore. We don't listen to whining and complaining, but we listen to suggestions and concerns. We take those to heart, but ultimately we are the authority and make the decisions. Once in a while someone bucks and tests, but mostly that's just how life is to them. One nice thing about having a bigger family is that a lot of lessons on sharing, getting along with others and caring for others are easy to come by. They have to learn how to share things and space. There's just no other option.
WildOnesMama
7-18-12, 7:04pm
[QUOTE=Square Peg;88733]Zoebird, another thing is the fear of CPS. Whether real or imagined, we parents have been instilled with the fear that any bump, any burn, leaving the kid home alone, letting him roam town on his bicycle, any of these things can result in a knock on the door.
EXACTLY!!!! Our kids are taught in school that if they feel uncomfortable or mishandled in anyway REPORT. My sons will be uncomfortable when facing consequences for misbehavior. Many times they tell me, I'll tell my teacher you were mean to me, because they don't get their own way.
They are taught over and over that they DO NOT have to respect authority figures. Teachers swear in class, and tell crude jokes to be the "cool" teacher. I have seen female teachers dressed in ways that would embarass a prostitute. Its ok for kids to wear their pajamas and slippers. As long as they are comfortable.
Egos have been so inflated that everyone is out for ME, ME, ME.
awakenedsoul
7-18-12, 7:17pm
That's so true, WildOnesMama. It's unbelievable now. If you teach the old way, they call you a "tough teacher." I don't teach anymore because of it. There's no respect, and forget about boundaries! Everyone wants to be you "friend." Many of the parents were insulted that I didn't make myself available to them at home, by cell phone, or on the Internet. They put more time into inviting me to parties than they did focusing on the class. Everything is so social now. The kids are running the show.
I know there are excellent, disciplined parents out there. I don't mean you.
"They are taught over and over that they DO NOT have to respect authority figures."
Really? I learned that all on my own.
I am at fault, hit me with the wet frugal noodle. My guys are grown now, to do it again you know. I had to take lectures, group counseling, and way to much reading last winter to learn the art of freeing myself from Enabling ( I have done well, I must say) My sons were given everything we could afford, love too and a good family structure to top it off. Cars.....I have lost countmy guess is 8 for one and 3 for the other???,the oldest totaled a few, trip to the Bahamas with friends in 12 grade.......Both IMO suffered from the smothering of ???Love???. As we went to rehab last fall to visit our oldest :( I found we were not alone, it looked like a luxury car lot for the loved ones on visiting day, In the classes we all had pretty much the same loving stories. My comment was "look what the money bought" everytime we left after visiting.
I did it all as I thought more was better. I wanted them to have it all. It was all done out of love and for all the right reasons. If I could only pass it on to other new parents my mistakes and successes, alas most find it hard to learn from others mistakes.
Ps: we have all come along ways and it is never to late to make amends.
Little Ben may not be able to tie his shoes, but that shouldn’t preclude his going to Brown
I see this at work every year when a new crop of grad students show up. They are mostly young - around 23. Their parents (boomers?) have raised them with unbelievably high expectations and failure is not an option. They have very impressive undergrad degrees and extracurricular experience. They have traveled the world and speak several languages. Primarily female (at least for this course of study), they are high-striving, physically fit, and impeccably and fashionably dressed, ie perfect. I guess the helicoptering paid off in one sense but I have to wonder sometimes if these kids have any common sense skills. Or does that even matter anymore?
I wonder how much we are intentionally conditioned to be this way - overly indulgent parents and kids who expect everything is a crack formula for selling a hell of lot of stuff. I expect there is a lot of research going on that goes way beyond how to sell more breakfast cereal.
ApatheticNoMore
7-19-12, 11:33am
As we went to rehab last fall to visit our oldest I found we were not alone, it looked like a luxury car lot for the loved ones on visiting day, In the classes we all had pretty much the same loving stories. My comment was "look what the money bought" everytime we left after visiting.
posh rehab. There's the really posh rehabs for the kids that always have had it all and the AA meetings for the down and out. The down and out have shocking tales of real crimes committed to get substances, they steal from their mother and grandmother, commit robberies, the women prostitute themselves and it seems they are all doing it. The children of the well to do or even the middle class with access to money have never had to. The senior executives show up to posh rehabs with the company they work for covering their trails. Those without such resources show up in the food stamp office stoned. Meth addicts from the middle of nowhere scream their heads off in the jails, their brain damage probably permanent.
SteveinMN
7-19-12, 12:00pm
I have to wonder sometimes if these kids have any common sense skills. Or does that even matter anymore?
Well, look at how far those young adults have gotten just by having well-rounded resumés and looking great. Besides, if what I see in the "adult" world is any indication, having (and using) common sense doesn't seem to matter much anymore. Half the adult population is willing to believe that you grow the most productive plants without water and there's a surprising chunk of the populace that still thinks our President is a Muslim who was born outside the U.S.
Having the right credentials, having the right friends, and looking good are all you really need, as far as I can tell.
ETA: Actually, you really only need two out of three, most times.
[QUOTE=ApatheticNoMore;91399]posh rehab. There's the really posh rehabs for the kids that always have had it all and the AA meetings for the down and out.
Well perhaps posh is not the word, private pay and lots of $$ is a better phrase for it. I suppose after all the giving and enabling in the name of love for the pryor 27 years.....it was the best money spent. AA/NA still the basis, they become equal in those meetings they have no $ signs on them at that point, they are all climbing out of the H**L hole they were in.
I think we have spoiled our kids, in a sense. We had the money, so they got to have private music lessons, good musical instruments, decent used cars (when they were about 20-23), and probably some opportunities that lots of kids don't have.
They have lived in decent housing with our help. We're still paying for their license plates, insurance, and loan them money when they need something really important to their professions.
When I look back on things, we DID buy them too many toys, but recently I've been thinking about how absolutely, incredibly expensive it is for anyone to live in the U.S. DH and I are always talking about when we were in college and didn't have a phone, no computer, no car, etc., etc. Today seems to require so much more for young people than it did when we were young.
Sure, we didn't have to buy our kids used cars.........but then they couldn't get to their job, student teach, and all the other opportunities that help them earn more money. Plus, we wanted them to be driving safer cars, so that was more expensive too.
As far as apartments, we didn't want them living in dangerous areas, so we helped pay for them to live in better areas.
We've been backing off what we help DD with, plus she really wants to make it all on her own.........but she gets pretty depressed because it is soooooooo hard to afford everything.
I honestly don't see how so many Americans can even make it out there.
Even though I feel our kids are somewhat spoiled, they are extremely decent, sensitive kids who are very intelligent and don't run with the crowd. They aren't perfect, but I'm very proud of them and would feel pretty comfortable about the future of this country, if all the kids were like them.
So even though my kids have received alot from us, I still feel like they are excellent people, who would also make the best of things, if they had alot less.
I think all of America is spoiled. But that might change real soon.
awakenedsoul
7-19-12, 6:32pm
I'm kind of glad now that I had to pay most of my own way growing up. My dad gave me $50.00 a month towards my dance classes, because that's what he spent on my brothers for AYSO. I babysat, cleaned houses, walked dogs, and taught dance classes to pay the remainder of the tuition. I knew I needed to train heavily every day to go pro. Also, my dad said he'd pay for one costume, not twelve. He thought it was ridiculous to spend money on something "I was only going to wear once." So, I paid for the others. The studio owner paid for one, because I was filling in for a girl who dropped out of the recital. It was a great experience. I saved up my money from working and bought a moped to get me to class. That cost $500.00. I received a couple of scholarships that enabled me to attend summer programs. I was working professionally in my field at age 17. From there, I just kept training and applying myself.
My family was considered wealthy, but my father kept his money invested. He was very frugal. He even would hand deliver his bills to save the money on a stamp! He drove an old 1967 Chevy and did the family grocery shopping. I would go with him, and he would stay under $100.00 every week for a family of six. (We got our meat from cattle that he owned.) He was definitely like the men in the book, The Millionaire Next Door. He didn't try to impress anyone with flash. He was much more into the discipline of compound interest.
As a general rule, I do not respect authority figures just because they are in a position of authority. Everyone has to prove themselves to me. That's my personality type.
I desparately *want* an authority figure, but I hate to say it, all of my teacher's humanity seriously made it difficult for me to respect them. Institutionalized abuse (not taking care of bullying, etc in the classroom and out), nepotism/favoritism for a variety of reasons that usually had nothing to do with education, capacity, knowledge that the student was gaining, etc -- ooh, yes, that chapped my little 6 yr old hide. First time I consciously encountered it.
And lets not forget engrained sexism!
No, I'm sorry, i've never just respected authority figures.
And for what it's worth, I've seen traditional education in action here, and I will not subject my kid to that. It's terribly disgusting behavior towards small, intelligent, sovereign beings who may not have the full context of the situation in hand. Instead of punishing them for not understanding their context, better to create an environment for success for them.
Which is why I chose steiner education.
my son has a lot of personality attribute that would mark him as a "bad kid" in any other context. In fact, in a *preschool* where we went for 1 day he was labeled as a "naughty, naughty boy" for being enthusiastic with another boy about a truck. Yeah, F you and your authority preschool teacher. You are an idiot. Learn to teach, instead of relying on your "authority" in this situation.
When he's at his kindy, his enthusiasm, his weaknesses are seen as potential strengths. They work with him and say "we see the pitfalls of this positive attribute he has, so we are making sure that he doesn't fall into them, by creating opportunities for success and community (the whole class) based approach." They do this for all of the children.
Yeah. I respect these teachers. They teach. They don't' punish a kid for having flaws that don't make their lives easy.
Want respect? Earn it.
Earn it from a 3 yr old, earn it from a 36 yr old, earn it from a 70 yr old. Don't expect to have it just because you happen to be the tallest person in the room and you get paid to be there.
Don't expect to have [respect] just because you happen to be the tallest person in the room and you get paid to be there.
I will openly admit that I do not respond well to hearing "Just because" when I ask "Why?". But I do think that one of the big problems we face these days is that there is a basic lack of respect for anyone and everyone.
A teacher is due at least some respect because (s)he is the tallest person in the room and paid to be there. That person is responsible for your child's safety and education while little Bird is in his or her charge. In case of emergency or a general toddler insurrection, (s)he is the adult in the room. Now, respect beyond that, reflecting ability, intelligence, rapport with Bird, Jr., if such is present -- that can (and should) earn a teacher a great deal of respect. That respect, in turn, should be reflected in teacher's compensation. Similarly, you deserve respect from the teacher for being Bird Jr.'s parent and responsible for little Bird when the teacher is not there. There should at least be an acknowledgement that you know your child well (if not best) and a consideration for your challenges and choices in raising him/her.
I think one of the great losses of our age is losing respect for positions of responsibility. I know that not every person in a particular position deserves personal respect (Anthony Wiener, where are you?). But their position certainly does. Ironically, sometimes it's the value we give a position or office that should drive how we allow people holding it to behave. We could start with Congress. But I think that's a topic for a different forum. ;)
True true. When I was young, it wasn't uncommon for younger children than now to babysit, to mow lawns, help with common chores. Children aren't even allowed unsupervised time now, there is no trust of children. No building of character.
I think I've mentioned this before, but I have a coworker who has two big strong teenaged sons, now 15 and 17. The family has lived in the same nice, middle class neighborhood for 10+ years. My coworker always brags about how they know the neighbors, mostly senior citizens. After our blizzard here in February of last year, I asked her if her boys had gone out in the neighborhood, offering their shovels for hire, as the mom had been saying her boys needed to find something to earn money. Her response? They couldn't let their boys go out in the neighborhood like that. You never know about people...
<rolls eyes>
Steve, I thought that was very well said.
rosarugosa
7-19-12, 10:53pm
I'm with Zoebird on this one. I was a nursery school dropout. I remember being called a "greedy girl" or some such thing because at cookie time once, I took a cookie from the basket and two stuck together. I think I weighed all of 12 lbs., and I could have gotten way better cookies at home if I wanted them. Or lobster, or fine french pastries or whatever. Miserable old *itches. I started feeling sick a lot on nursery school days and my Mom took me out because I didn't want to go anymore. The *itches said she was making a big mistake and that I would never make it through high school. Graduated 1st in my class from college. I hope they enjoyed their d*amned cookies, because I didn't need them.
*sanitized of profanity to comply with Forum standards.
ApatheticNoMore
7-19-12, 11:44pm
There's a difference between treating a person well because of general decency of how you treat a human beings and respecting authority figures just because they are in positions of authority. +1000 and the former and NEVER on the latter.
I do agree that we need to respect individual sovereignty.
One of the things that I teach DS in terms of manners/social decorum is that he can observe other's needs and respond accordingly. He knows how to behave in public -- and public includes a school room. He'll look to the leader of that room for cues on the behavior that is expected of him.
And this, I think, might be what we're talking about.
That is, that perhaps awakened one and steve are speaking to the idea that people simply lack this basic courtesy extended toward others and do not understand basic social decorum. As such, they have "no respect for authority" because they don't look to anyone in particular for leadership on what the rules of a given space are (a classroom, for example).
And as such, it's probably pandemonium. And frustrating. And the teacher can't do his/her job effectively.
The real issue here isn't a problem with authority per se, or that people don't respect it. It's that we've moved towards a more egalitarian society, without having matured into the underlying principles that make that society work.
Denmark is a very egalitarian society. It's also a highly *polite* society. The process of politeness is understood to be the glue that allows egalitarianism to work. People will follow the rules not because they were set up by an authority, or the rules are an authority, but because it helps the society function better if the rules are followed.
I think there's nothing wrong with moving from an authoritarian model to an egalitarian one, but the requisite manners required might need to come into the picture.
Denmark is a very egalitarian society. It's also a highly *polite* society. The process of politeness is understood to be the glue that allows egalitarianism to work. People will follow the rules not because they were set up by an authority, or the rules are an authority, but because it helps the society function better if the rules are followed.
I think there's nothing wrong with moving from an authoritarian model to an egalitarian one, but the requisite manners required might need to come into the picture.
Well stated, Zoe. I remember in my lifetime that there was a code of behavior in public that was different from the code observed among friends. One didn't swear like a sailor in restaurants and shopping malls and parks. People didn't wear their clothes in a way that made their bare butt or breasts visible. Private topics were discussed in private (and, technology aside, not shared with everyone in earshot on a cell phone). So maybe it is politeness even if the situation is not truly egalitarian. But it is a basic level of respect we should afford others and that they should afford us. I really think it's gone missing.
But it is a basic level of respect we should afford others and that they should afford us. I really think it's gone missing.
I ditto that one.
This is a very interesting thread. My 6 year old seems very spoiled. I think because he's 6. But it's a constant struggle against the "more more more" that seems to infect his school/class/age.
This is a very interesting thread. My 6 year old seems very spoiled. I think because he's 6. But it's a constant struggle against the "more more more" that seems to infect his school/class/age.
My kid is an only child. I think she is spoiled by default. She's already enrolled in activities I only dreamed of taking as a kid from a large family where money was tight. It's a fine line for me, because I remember the feeling of not fitting in and not being able to do the things other kids could. I'm not going to make her go throught that if I don't have to. I'll probably tie her wants to work/chores when the time comes.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.