Big Problem with Sibling--please advise [Archive]

frugalone

7-5-12, 6:53pm

I don't even know where to start here. I have been made the keeper of a secret that I Do Not Want. I'm "not supposed to tell anyone" about this. After you read it, you may understand my mixed emotions.

About a year ago, out of the blue, I got an e-mail from my younger brother saying he was a nudist. At first I thought it was a joke of some sort. He said he was confiding in me because I was "free spirited" and "always did what I want no matter what anyone else thought." Yes, when I was a teenager, and I'm middle aged now. I was into punk when other people laughed at that sort of thing. No one had tattoos, piercings, weird colored hair, etc. OK, fine.

Let me make it clear that I have nothing against nudism or naturism or whatever. It's not my cup of tea, but live and let live. The only thing I objected to, and I did not say this to him, to my regret, was that he goes to a nudist resort on weekends and lies to his wife about where he is going. He does not have a very stable marriage--they have a child with health issues and my SIL is in that sandwich generation, with a mother who is ill and a young child to care for. My DB does not seem very helpful or sympathetic with the MIL situation. He does seem to care very much for his son.

Anyway, I told him I thought it was fine as long as no one was getting hurt. I heard nothing more. Then, about two weeks ago, I get this e-mail with a flyer called Nude E-News or some such thing, with events at this resort he goes to. Nude volleyball, nude happy hour etc. He said he "hoped I wasn't offended by this." I wasn't, and I just said, "Hope you bring a lot of sunblock!" He wrote and said everyone at the resort is very kind about that sort of thing--if they see you're getting fried in the sun, they will let you know, lend you sunblock etc. I told my DH and he said, "You know, I'm a little uncomfortable with this. Does he want you to come along to this resort or what? It seems odd that a guy would want to see his sister naked." I said I honestly didn't know.

Well, yesterday he dropped the Bombshell. Must have something to do with the 4th. Because he has this idea that I should come along with him to the resort, it would "be good for me" and "set my soul free" blah di blah blah. And that THEn he could truthfully tell his wife he was going somewhere with his sister and not be lying!

That's not the worst of it. I'm not interested and I'll say so.

He confessed to all sorts of infidelities. Told me his life story, sex history, you name it. Details about his marriage that I should not know.

HOW the HELL am I going to look him in the face (OR his wife, for that matter?) at my mother's birthday party TOMORROW? Assuming they show up. Sometimes they skip family gatherings. I hope they do this time!

My said I have options--I don't even have to respond to what he said. But it sure looks to me like he wants to have his cake and eat it too, and he wants his big sister's approval for cheating on his wife, possibly breaking up his home and hurting my nephew, etc. I'm sure I don't have to go on.

Anybody--any advice? What would YOU do?

I thank you for listening. This has been very hard for me. I started to cry at work today--I lost two pets in the last 36 hours, one two weeks ago and I don't need this BS on top of it!

sweetana3

7-5-12, 7:36pm

I think you should just tell him why it hurts you so and affects your whole relationship with him. Be honest. He seems to assume that your lack of response is agreement to his lifestyle.

Tussiemussies

7-5-12, 7:48pm

Think he is looking for approval from someone for what he has done or is feeling very guilty and wants to get it off his chest.

This is really between him and his wife. If it was me, I would tell him this is between you and your wife andcI don't want to be a part of this.

I would try in my heart to forgive him and let it go. If his wife finds out which eventually she will it will be their problem to work out.

Do you think your brother might be taking any drugs? Just thought that he might since he asked you to go to the nudest camp or eluded to it. That kind of behavior isn't normal to ask your sister to go there.

You can back out of this emotionally realizing that everyone has life lessons to learn and this is theirs. A lot of times these lessons are painful but people gain strength from going through them. Tell your brother you don't want to hear anymore about it too.

Wish I could offer more but this is what comes to mind. Good luck with this situation.

mamalatte

7-5-12, 8:04pm

i suggest to set a firm boundary on this. it is not fair for your brother to burden you with "secrets" that are harmful to people that you know and interact with, like your SIL. tell him to stop sharing this info with you and if he doesn't, hang up or walk away or whatever. as for what you already know, i would not tell SIL. she may already know and just not be dealing with it due to everything else she has going on; you never know what is truly going on inside someone's marriage. if she somehow directly asks you, i would tell her to talk to your brother. not sure what is your history with your brother, but possibly he is looking for a reality check from his sister to tell him to cut the crap and stop what he is doing. possibly his wife has been very unavailable to him because of her other heavy care-taking responsibilities and he is just dealing with it inappropriately. maybe you could suggest a more positive response for him, like therapy, or helping him find a way to ease the burden on his wife so they can have more time together or something. all easier said than done, it sounds like a tough situation, but that's my two cents.

JaneV2.0

7-5-12, 8:06pm

I just want to insert here that I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your pets. Losing one is a blow; I can't imagine what losing three in such a short time frame is like. I would be inclined to be direct with your brother, under the circumstances.

Anne Lee

7-5-12, 8:10pm

Oh dear. Whatever you do, I don't think you should let this pass. Let him know that you aren't ok with his philandering and lying. He either needs to cut it out and start working on his marriage or come clean and start divorce proceedings. Remind him these things always get out and when - not if but when - his wife finds out, you don't relish being in her dog house as giving tacit approval to his bad behavior.

So sorry you are going through this rough patch. Give yourself a little extra TLC.

Tussiemussies

7-5-12, 8:29pm

Am also sorry for the loss of your pets. When mine passed it was a horrible time for me. I can imagine it may be the same for you. Sounds like you need a little rest and relaxation both physically and mentally from what you have gone through...

bunnys

7-5-12, 8:32pm

I am so very sorry to hear about your animals! Please realize they had wonderful lives (however short or long they were) because they spent them with you! I have NO DOUBT that you were a good mother to them in every way. I know this pain will pass and eventually you'll be open to bringing another needy animal into your family.

As to the brother I'd say 2 things: "No, I have no interest in ever going to a nudist camp" and "I don't want to hear another word about your nude extramarital activities until I hear about them from your wife."

Good luck. He's being a self-absorbed, immature, jerk and a crappy brother and husband.

peggy

7-5-12, 8:47pm

What a jerk! And yes, he is being a jerk to you and his family. There is no other way to put it. He is playing you as a patsy in his infidelities, and playing his wife for a fool. He is using you both. I know the touchy feely thing is to say he is hurting and needs support, yada yada yada, but he is being a jerk and frankly he knows it or he wouldn't be trying to pull you in as validation for his chosen lifestyle. He wants you to call him on it. That is why he told you everything. Someone who wants to keep things secret, keeps things secret!
Unfortunately you have been cast in this little drama as an accomplice, and if I was you I would refuse. I would tell him that if he doesn't come clean with his wife in a certain amount of time, I would tell her everything. You could even remove yourself by writing an anonymous letter to her, but either way I'd let her know. She is being played for a fool and if you like this woman at all, or respect her at all, do the right thing and let her know. Believe me, your brother half way expects you to do this. In fact, he may be using you for this very reason, being too much of a coward to tell her himself. Either way, it's time for straight talk with him, holding nothing back.

I certainly don't have anything against nudist, but this isn't just him wanting to be a nudist. His kind of deception gives nudest a bad name.

Simpler at Fifty

7-5-12, 8:51pm

First I am so sorry to hear about your pets. 3 in that short time must be difficult to handle.

DB sounds very selfish. I would take him aside at the party and have a heart to heart.

Gardenarian

7-5-12, 9:03pm

Well, what a week :(

I think you should email your brother before the party that yes, you care for him no matter what, but you are not comfortable with him sharing this kind of information with you. Tell him you are deleting his email, that you hope that he makes better decisions in the future, and if he needs someone to vent to - well maybe he can try a forum or a therapist. You can tell him that he is putting you in the impossible situation of having to be deceitful to your relatives and to his wife, and that is unfair, and actually mean.

I would not get further involved by telling others what he told you.

(((((hugs)))))

bae

7-5-12, 9:29pm

A bunch of very sensible stuff.

I am on the same page as Peggy here.

iris lily

7-5-12, 9:34pm

This sucks SO MUCH! My sympathies are with you, OP. Your brother had no business laying this burden on you, this is extraordinarily bad behavior on his part. I hope you can get angry enough to cast off the burden of guilt of carrying this nasty information. You don't own it, don't let it move into your head.

Contrary to some of the other advice I see here do NOT engage with him on this topic again except perhaps to tell him you won't be on his "side" on this. Keep it out of your life, it's not your problem.

iris lily

7-5-12, 9:38pm

...
Do you think your brother might be taking any drugs? Just thought that he might since he asked you to go to the nudest camp or eluded to it. That kind of behavior isn't normal to ask your sister to go there.

.

I disagree with that.
I'm also surprised that the naturist camp allows him to come without his family. I thought that most of these places discouraged single men.

bae

7-5-12, 9:45pm

Mind you, I'm not anti-naturist at all - whole islands in my county are basically clothing-optional zones part of the year, and many people don't bother with much in the way of clothing on their property, but the naturism doesn't sound like it is the real issue with the brother, really. It's the boundary-crossing, and the scummy behaviour.

iris lily

7-5-12, 9:56pm

ToomuchStuff

7-5-12, 10:27pm

I have been made the keeper of a secret that I Do Not Want. I'm "not supposed to tell anyone" about this. After you read it, you may understand my mixed emotions.

About a year ago, out of the blue, I got an e-mail from my younger brother saying he was a nudist. At first I thought it was a joke of some sort. He said he was confiding in me because I was "free spirited" and "always did what I want no matter what anyone else thought." Yes, when I was a teenager, and I'm middle aged now. I was into punk when other people laughed at that sort of thing. No one had tattoos, piercings, weird colored hair, etc. OK, fine.

Let me make it clear that I have nothing against nudism or naturism or whatever. It's not my cup of tea, but live and let live. The only thing I objected to, and I did not say this to him, to my regret, was that he goes to a nudist resort on weekends and lies to his wife about where he is going. He does not have a very stable marriage--they have a child with health issues and my SIL is in that sandwich generation, with a mother who is ill and a young child to care for. My DB does not seem very helpful or sympathetic with the MIL situation. He does seem to care very much for his son.

Anyway, I told him I thought it was fine as long as no one was getting hurt. I heard nothing more. Then, about two weeks ago, I get this e-mail with a flyer called Nude E-News or some such thing, with events at this resort he goes to. Nude volleyball, nude happy hour etc. He said he "hoped I wasn't offended by this." I wasn't, and I just said, "Hope you bring a lot of sunblock!" He wrote and said everyone at the resort is very kind about that sort of thing--if they see you're getting fried in the sun, they will let you know, lend you sunblock etc. I told my DH and he said, "You know, I'm a little uncomfortable with this. Does he want you to come along to this resort or what? It seems odd that a guy would want to see his sister naked." I said I honestly didn't know.

Well, yesterday he dropped the Bombshell. Must have something to do with the 4th. Because he has this idea that I should come along with him to the resort, it would "be good for me" and "set my soul free" blah di blah blah. And that THEn he could truthfully tell his wife he was going somewhere with his sister and not be lying!

That's not the worst of it. I'm not interested and I'll say so.

He confessed to all sorts of infidelities. Told me his life story, sex history, you name it. Details about his marriage that I should not know.

HOW the HELL am I going to look him in the face (OR his wife, for that matter?) at my mother's birthday party TOMORROW? Assuming they show up. Sometimes they skip family gatherings. I hope they do this time!

My said I have options--I don't even have to respond to what he said. But it sure looks to me like he wants to have his cake and eat it too, and he wants his big sister's approval for cheating on his wife, possibly breaking up his home and hurting my nephew, etc. I'm sure I don't have to go on.

Anybody--any advice? What would YOU do?

I thank you for listening. This has been very hard for me. I started to cry at work today--I lost two pets in the last 36 hours, one two weeks ago and I don't need this BS on top of it!

Well you could do several things. Post a link to here, showing him your discussing it, and maybe he will shut up.
Tell him you flat out think there is no reason he needs to shovel his problems in front of you, you have your own life to deal with, and that you think if he can't talk to his wife, he should get professional help. (and not hookers)
Go to the family gathering, and say I don't need your (censored) right now when he comes over to talk. (better when others are around)
Well, as I have learned here, you could post up on Facebook as "everybody" is doing it, and say whoops, your computer was hacked.:laff:

Do you have a spouse that has access to your email? Maybe he should say to your brothers wife at the gathering, that he isn't comfortable with your brother inviting you to a nudist camp and ask her to stop her husband.
Tell his wife you believe in live and let live. You want him to live his life, and let you live yours so you don't do something that gets him killed. (and that is all you need to say)

Sorry about the pets.

Florence

7-5-12, 10:38pm

It sounds really odd to me that a brother would tell his sister about his sex life and infidelities. And to seriously invite your sister to a nudist camp just isn't right.

redfox

7-5-12, 10:43pm

Quoting Carolyn Hax:

Dear Carolyn: I just found out a semi-good friend is sleeping with the husband of another semi-good friend. I don’t know whether to stay out of it, or whether I’m obligated to say something to the married friend (which I want to do). What do you think? — San Diego
I’m sorry. Your impulse is to help your friend, rightly, but you’re in a bad spot yourself.
Since there are boundary, presumption and disaster problems with playing affair-buster, limit your actions to those that address your awkward position.
Specifically, to the husband or husband-poacher (whoever’s the closer friend), say something akin to: “I’ve heard this is happening, which means others have, too. That’s Issue 1. Issue 2, I want no part of this — I don’t even want to know what I already know. Issue 3: If Wife asks me something, I won’t lie. As someone who stands to lose friends in this mess, I hope you’ll clean it up.”
Then butt out, knowing that if someone forces your hand, your next move has been declared in advance — and if your friend finds out that you knew, you can say: “I’m sorry. I did what I felt I could.”

chrisgermany

7-6-12, 3:44am

Maybe he wants to be seen by the one person he trusts as a whole person, with all aspects of his personality.

In my country being a nudist or going to a sauna (nude, too) isn't a big thing. You would be frowned at or asked to leave if you are found in a sauna wearing anything. People go as a family. Nude beaches are very popular and have been at least since the 1920s.
The more often people go nude, the less they think of it. And I would guess this is what your brother felt about the "brother/sister nudity thing" when he asked you to join.

I would probably talk to him and tell him that as a matter of principle I have no secrets from DH and feel uncomfortable with the secrets he told me up top now. That as he basically imposed the secrecy on my against my will I have shared and always will share anything with DH. That I would not solicit the info to anybody, but not lie about it when asked by his wife or others. As on his marriage, I would tell him that I do not approve infidelity and that it is his responsibility to find a solution for his marriage and relationship to his kid. I would recommend getting professional support like marriage counseling asap.

razz

7-6-12, 6:31am

Truly sorry about your loss.
Inappropriate behaviour, no matter what it might be - sexual, nudity, abuse etc - violates your values.

I keep asking myself a question when I don't know how to respond to a difficult situation - if a stranger told me this same info, how would I respond? If a friend, how would I respond and if family, how would I respond? There is a sense of direction to your actions that will result from your responses to these questions.

Inappropriate behaviour from family is still inappropriate. Sorry to say this, but it strikes me that DB is getting his 'jollies' from telling your this info and that in itself is inappropriate foer you, your home and family. Emails are not private and can be accessed, think Wikileak. It seems to me that you are being used and abused verbally. Put a stop to it, set boundaries for contact and enlist your DH or close family member to reinforce. Silence enables him to continue.
Remember the AA code for inappropriate behaviour - you didn't cause it, your can't control it and you cannot cure it. Don't try.
It is for that reason that I advise against further contact one on one but only with support from trusted persons.

puglogic

7-6-12, 9:13am

I think you should email your brother before the party that yes, you care for him no matter what, but you are not comfortable with him sharing this kind of information with you. Tell him you are deleting his email, that you hope that he makes better decisions in the future, and if he needs someone to vent to - well maybe he can try a forum or a therapist. You can tell him that he is putting you in the impossible situation of having to be deceitful to your relatives and to his wife, and that is unfair, and actually mean.

I would not get further involved by telling others what he told you.

I tend to agree with Gardenarian here. It's not your job to fix your brother, fix your brother's marriage, or be Mighty Mouse (here I come to save the dayyyy!) and fix this situation, as angry as it might make you. Unless you want to, of course. That would put you in the middle, open up a whole NEW can of worms that you may not want to deal with....but only you know for sure. Being a quiet type here, my gut reaction is "Ick!!" :(

But I'd be clear that you love him but are going to pretend you didn't hear any of this, you don't want to hear about ANY of this any more, and that you hope he straightens his life out so he can live honestly instead of scurrying around hiding like a stray dog. I'd be pretty darned uncomfortable if my brothers told me any of this - a) I am not their father confessor and b) as Gardenarian says, involving you is just selfish and mean, even if he's doing it out of some need to gain acceptance. That's what psychotherapy is for. You are a person and deserve not to be put in this predicament.

Hugs to you on the loss of your pets --- as someone who loves hers, I know how you must feel.

awakenedsoul

7-6-12, 3:00pm

I would tell his wife because she could get AIDS from him. This is very serious. She could die, and not be there to raise her child. After that, I would stay out of it. I wouldn't have contact with this brother. He sounds very self centered, and like an addict.

loosechickens

7-6-12, 5:24pm

oh, BOY.....I am so glad I wandered in here today to try to catch up with postings.

First, let me say that what your brother is doing has nothing to do with "nudism" and EVERYTHING to do with lying to his wife, and trying to get you to collude with him to do it. An unfaithful husband who lies to his wife is the same animal, whether clothed or nekkid as the day he was born.

But, most importantly. We are nudists, and are spending the summer at a nudist resort in southern CA as we speak, and have visited a number of other nudist resorts across the country.

Most nudist resorts have a VERY negative view of this sort of behavior. People who are married almost always have to join as a couple, so if your brother is going to a nudist resort, singly, it is quite likely that he has lied as well to the management, and is representing himself as a single man. And as a "single" man, usually there are pretty strict guidelines about behavior, as most clubs do NOT want this kind of thing.

My advice? I would tell him in no uncertain terms that you do not want to hear anything about his private life that he is unwilling for you to be open with his wife about. Period. And, I might also mention that the "freedom" of nudism has nothing whatsoever to do with being a cheating husband, lying to one's wife, or any other misbehaviors. It is centered around being comfortable with one's body, appreciating it, accepting that we are born naked and there is no shame in that. It is a NON SEXUAL thing. And that he is looking in the wrong place for what he thinks he wants.

It just frosts me when people show up who have this twisted idea of nudist resorts as somehow being a place for "swingers", the sexually libertarians of the world, etc. It gives nudism a bad name, and the legions of happily married, monogamous couples who are nudists HATE these kinds of people.....GGGRRRRRRR

Honestly, if I knew who your brother was, I'd drop a dime (quarter?) on a phone call to the nudist resort to inform them that he is married, and is attending their establishment without the knowledge of his wife. If he wants to go to a nudist resort, his wife should know, approve and join him. And if not, he has no business being there.

If he doesn't want you to be passing along all his exploits to his wife, tell him he'd better button his lips to you. You have every right to be incredibly pissed about his behavior. And NO responsibility to him.

I guess the one thing I DO agree with is that when most people experience nudism, they DO begin to understand that it IS quite freeing to lose negative feelings about one's body, and to learn to separate sexual feelings from not having your clothes on. But it doesn't sound as though your brother is doing that at all. It sounds much more as though he is hoping that he'll find fertile field for his sexual infidelities.....but he would probably have as good an opportunity for that at his local bowling league, and certainly at the nearest neighborhood bar.....probably better.

puglogic

7-6-12, 6:32pm

Oh yes, loosechickens -- I dated a man for a while who was into attending nudist places, including resorts, beaches, cruises, etc. But for him, it was all about seeing women naked.....after a while he was found out and had to get his jollies in other ways. And he too was a liar and unfaithful, actually to every woman he was ever with. It was all part of his personality at the time and probably still, self-absorbed and really not at all in touch with how his behaviors hurt others, because there was always a justification. "My wife doesn't do X, Y, or Z so I have to look for it elsewhere" "I have needs, you know" .....not to put too fine a point on it, but it's a whole personality type, and not an uncommon one.

But by NO means is he, or the O.P.'s brother, the sort of person who usually participates in nudism, but they sure can give it a bad name.

loosechickens

7-6-12, 7:28pm

Exactly. Places where there are children are not there to please pedophiles, but they sure do attract them. And while nudist resorts have nothing to do with sex, the folks looking for it often think so. Which is why clubs and resorts try to weed out the guys and gals looking for flings. We have occasional folks coming around like the OPs brother, but thankfully not often.

cjones

7-7-12, 10:40am

Lots of good advice here.

Ordinarily I would say NOT to tell the wife, but the poster who warned about danger of AIDS is right. I think if I were in your shoes I would tell my brother my concern about his wife being exposed to VDs, and give him one week to come clean to her himself, after which point I would go to the wife and without giving specific details would tell her that brother has confessed to extra marital affairs and that she may be at risk for VD.

Ugh!!! NOT a conversation I would want to have!! But if God forbid my husband was sleeping around behind my back I would definitely want someone to tell me so I could at least protect my own health.

Sorry you're in this. It's awful.

chrisgermany

7-8-12, 7:33am

:+1: for loosechicken

I hoped that you would contribute here.

Merski

7-8-12, 8:13am

I also think that nudism and infidelity go together like a fish and a bicycle. Sounds like he thinks that the nudism philosphy of physically having "nothing to hide" ( I'm assuming this) means that he should have nothing to hide from you! Seriously!!! I might be inclined to give him a deadline to tell his wife about infidelity or YOU WILL! Especially if you like and respect her.

try2bfrugal

7-8-12, 12:42pm

I think the wife should be told since her life is literally at risk. She could get AIDs or any number of other STDs. Then I would tell the brother to find a therapist to tell all of this to, because you are not the appropriate person.

JaneV2.0

7-8-12, 3:00pm

cjones

7-9-12, 7:49am

The chance of female to male transmission of HIV in this country is minuscule (a fraction of one percent), and the number of infected women here is tiny, as well (according to most recent CDC statistics).

Nonetheless, STDs are always a concern in this kind of situation.

It's not just about HIV---it's about any type of VD, including Herpes, which is highly infectious and can be incurable and very unpleasant to live with.

leslieann

7-9-12, 9:13am

...Sigh......what a pain in the butt. I hate it when people give me information that seems to carry some responsibility.

I spend a lot of my working life helping people to get OUT of triangles like the one that your DB is trying to pull you into....if you tell someone his "secrets" you'll be in a triangle, STD risk irrelevant here. You will also be forever the bearer of pretty horrific news and thus tarnished. AND at risk of becoming someone else's confidant. GRRR....what a complex situation.

What seems to me most sensible is to set that limit with DB (no more information and by the way, you owe this information to your wife). He is pretty likely to hang himself anyway, if he's already dumping all of that info on you. He may want disclosure and want it to happen without his active effort (people do this A LOT) and then he can "blame" you for telling. He may be trying in some weird way to precipitate a crisis but you don't have to be the one who lights the fuse.

He could possibly retain some self respect if he actually owns up to his behaviour with his wife. That would be a positive outcome. And you need to keep yours, too, by setting that limit and reminding yourself that it is HIS situation, HIS problem, HIS stuff.

I do realize from reading all of these posts that people have very different points of view on this. I wish you all the best and I want to offer my condolences on the loss of your pets.

frugalone

7-10-12, 10:48pm

Wow...well...I'm back after a few days' hiatus. One of the reasons for the hiatus is my mother is now in the hospital and may need surgery. This was totally unexpected. What a week!

Thank you, loosechickens, for an "insider's view" on nudism. 'Cause I don't know anyone else who is a nudist.. I know a lot of European countries/resorts are pretty open about it...in Fla. where my uncle lives, there's a nude beach and a lot of German people visit and tend to go to that beach. But other than that...

I don't think I should be the one to tell my SIL anything. We are not close...I don't particularly like her (for various reasons). But I do plan to recommend my brother be tested for STDs, get some sort of counseling, leave me out of his business, and stop trying to get me to go to the nudist resort. I'm just not interested--not because I think it's wrong or anything; it's just nothing I have any interest in.

I feel sorry for my brother, in a way. He is really messed up.

Thank you all for your support and help in this difficult matter.

razz

7-11-12, 5:58am

{{{{{Hugs, Frugalone}}}}}

Merski

7-11-12, 6:25am

razz, sounds like all of our ramblings one way or another was of some help to you. What I love about the board is you can vent and we all help (&vent) and some kind of resolution is made. Half the battle to solving issues of all of our problems is voicing them.

frugalone

7-18-12, 1:16pm

Thank you, everyone. I am glad I can talk to you guys about weird stuff like this!

frugalone

8-29-12, 10:39pm

Here is an update on this situation: Well, the sh*t has hit the fan. My SIL found out about the nudist camp (at least). I believe she has access to his email and probably more. She threw my brother out and got a PFA against him. He denies hitting her, but through some extensive research, I discovered it is very difficult to get a PFA w/o "compelling evidence." He has been ordered to stay away from her for two years and from his son for 9 months. None of the family may contact either of them. I am not close to my nephew, but I feel as if I have lost him.

DB is staying with my mom, who knows nothing about this situation. He is lying to everyone left and right about the "lies she told the judge" and how she "has no proof" of anything. I feel like a sucker. I wonder if I should tell my mother that she does not know the whole situation. There is a chance she will tell my DB and he will fly into a rage. I am afraid of his reaction. Just telling the story the other day, he was getting very very angry and scary. (He's a big fella).

What do I do? My mother whines to me about the whole thing. I don't wanna hear it, frankly. IMHO he deserves what he is getting.

frugalone

8-29-12, 10:44pm

P.S. I did tell him I think he needs counseling but I seriously doubt he will do it.

redfox

8-29-12, 10:59pm

It is always the truth to say "You know, I can imagine that none of us actually know the whole story." and leave it at that. Oy. Your brother is asking for containment in some way. Hopefully he'll learn to self-contain, and not escalate. I am sorry you're not in touch with your nephew. Short term loss for long term health, as his mom is protecting her family as best she knows how.

And, I would suggest you consider not listening to him any more. If he's getting angry & scary, walk out.

awakenedsoul

8-29-12, 11:29pm

He's having to face the music. Consequences for his actions. Lying is a big part of addiction. Yogi Bhajan used to say, "Tell the truth and you will have many enemies."

I am the truth teller in my family, and I'm not very popular. But, I feel better in the long run. In this case, had you told her, she might have felt she could trust you. I'm not saying this as a judgement, but that's how I would have felt. I know you don't like her so it's more complicated than that. It sounds like you're afraid of him. He has the qualities of a dangerous abuser. I would go with your gut.

Oprah used to say on her show, "I believe that the truth heals." I think so, too. Addicts do this a lot. They set themselves up to get caught. I think on some level they want to get in trouble.

frugalone

8-30-12, 9:27pm

razz

8-31-12, 8:21am

I am having a tough time dealing w/my feelings, esp. since my mother uses me as her confidante. Now she's complaining about how much stuff DB has brought from his home to hers and how she has no room for it. IMHO he ought to get his own damn apartment, preferably somewhere close to his job (which is literally hours away from DM's house).

I feel so angry. Not only is my brother not the person I thought he was, but he has spoiled my relationship with others in the family through this. I do not want to be the Secret Keeper. Every time I hear other people discussing this at family gatherings I will have to bite my tongue.

So sorry you are going through all this. Is it possible to emotionally detach by approaching it as a serious disease instead?

HE has a serious problem, it is not yours, thank your lucky stars. Keep saying/affirming that to yourself and to others who contact you regarding His issues. You can only wish them well in in finding ways to deal with HIM. Each one of those people has the wisdom, knowledge and ability to deal with HIM IF they wish to choose to do so. Remind them gently of that fact.

His misuse/abuse of your mother and her home is HER problem to deal with, it is not yours. Remind her that you can only work to resolve your own problems, not hers that she brought on herself with her choices.

Keep reminding everyone that HE has made the choices that mess up HIS life. HE is capable of making choices that will correct whatever is going wrong in HIS life and no one else.

When people dump on me, I simply say that "we don't know the whole story. I didn't cause it, can't control it and can't cure it. I can only change the the things that I can change. The rest I leave to God, the Universe, life, karma, (whatever works for you etc) to deal with.

I keep repeating this until I get left alone and often people are grateful for a detached way to approach the 'issue of the moment' and use it themselves.

As far as being the 'secret keeper', let it go. It was trash-talk. Would you carry a bag of garbage on your back 24 hours a day?
When it comes to mind, affirm: this garbage is not mine, never was, never will be; I am grateful for (the sun shining, my loving partner, beautiful room..." Keep doing this until you batter the trash-talk into extinction in your thinking.

You can do it!!!!

redfox

8-31-12, 11:00am

Razz, you nailed it. I would add that if his bombastic behavior feels threatening to your Mom, you might want to help her figure out how to protect herself. I say this assuming she may be getting older & vulnerable.

puglogic

8-31-12, 11:05am

On the flip side, I detest lying so much -- and being asked to lie -- that I would probably tell my mom I no longer wanted to talk about, or HEAR about, my brother unless it was to help her with the logistics of getting him the heck out.

And knowing me, I would probably reach a snapping point where I'd tell anyone the truth who asked me. The cat's already out of the bag, and he's a grown man who shouldn't have to be living with his mommy. Seriously, who DOES that any more? Get an apartment and stop being such a whiny, lying jackhole. (whoops....non-buddhist judgmental statement, sorry) I guess I just do not like carrying those kinds of weights, as they interfere with my own serenity too much. Deceit is heavy, and it burns. Like awakenedsoul, I'm not the most popular person in my family for that reason, but it's who I am.

I'm sorry you're having to deal with this, frugalone. It's sick on every level.

I'd say do whatever you feel is necessary to return your OWN life to balance and calm, if balance and calm is what you want.

frugalone

8-31-12, 1:25pm

I want to thank you for listening to me on this issue. Razz, I like what you say! and puglogic, I have said to my SO several times that I am afraid I am going to snap, and blurt it all out.

I will do what brings the most peace to my life. I don't think my mother is in any danger, or I would definitely intervene. I will try to encourage her to encourage HIM to find his own place, though.

I am feeling much better after reading your kind responses.

puglogic

8-31-12, 2:13pm

{{hugs}} to you, frugalone. All will be well...just keep pointing your feet toward whatever brings you the most peace.

fidgiegirl

8-31-12, 4:41pm

For you, frugalone. You are having a hard time lately. Here's to brighter days ahead.

http://www.victortheflorist.com/khxc/media/ccp0/prodlg/Picture%20101.jpg

frugalone

9-4-12, 9:20pm

Thank you so much, fidgie!!! Big hugs to you. The flowers are beautiful and just what I need today!

frugalone

9-9-12, 3:24pm

I hate to keep harping about this, but my mother sent me an upsetting email today kind of kvetching about how many changes this has brought about in her life, and how she'll never forgive my SIL and how my "poor brother" is being deprived of his son. Boo-hoo-effing-hoo.

I really don't know how--or if--I should respond to this sort of thing. I did try telling her "none of us really knows the whole story" which brought a sort of dead(ly) silence in a phone conversation. I think the poor woman would drop dead if she knew "the whole story."

Can anyone advise me on what I should say? If anything? How do I get her to stop talking to me about this?

jennipurrr

9-9-12, 3:39pm

Sorry you are still dealing with this mess frugalone. Do you have any other siblings you can confide in, or is it just you and brother?

frugalone

9-9-12, 3:41pm

I do have a sister, yes. I should probably talk to her.

razz

9-9-12, 3:51pm

You are not responsible for what your mother is experiencing. SHE chose to let your DB into her house. She may never have encountered anything like this before and truly does not know what to do.

Simply reply to her words - "Mom, I am sorry that you are going through this. That is all that I can say or do" - You are offering empathy to your mother but not absolving either your mother or DB of responsibility for their choices. Also, nothing written can be quoted or used against you, now or later.

Keep repeating that phrase until it finally fully registers on both mother (and DB who will read the email) that those words are truly all you can offer or do. Stay out of anything else. Don't get involved in the DB's manipulations of his/your mother.

redfox

9-9-12, 5:49pm

Razz, perfectly said... Hard to hold these boundaries through one's own discomfort... But in the long arc of time, so necessary & important. You're being the grown up here, frugalone.

iris lily

9-9-12, 5:59pm

I do have a sister, yes. I should probably talk to her.

Oh jeez, I wouldn't do that. It just extends the circle of intrigue and gossip.

Go with what razz says, and understand that you can't get you mother to do anything, you can only control your own behavior.

awakenedsoul

9-10-12, 9:24am

I see it differently. Your mother doesn't know the truth. You do. You could tell her. She probably suspects it. When people cover up for him, he gets away with it.

redfox

9-10-12, 12:33pm

I see it differently. Your mother doesn't know the truth. You do. You could tell her. She probably suspects it. When people cover up for him, he gets away with it.

Awakened, I'd love to hear more about your thinking. I am of such a different perspective! I'm sure I will learn from it! Thanks... here are my beliefs...

Keeping out of others business is not covering up, imho. As Byron Katie says, there's My Business, Your Business, and God's Business. If I am in Your Business, no one is tending to mine. This dude's behavior is his business, and no one else's.

And... The truth is so subjective! Has Mom asked son for the whole story? Would he report the circumstances as frugalone has? What is the truth here? I'm not questioning frugalone.

However, what is the internal truth that her brother is experiencing? Wy did he choose his actions as he did? Is he mentally ill? Deeply scared? Running from something? This is his life path to understand, and his mom's is hers. If I were in this situation, I'd step out of any triangulation, as that just makes things messier, and keep simple, clear boundaries with all.

puglogic

9-10-12, 12:51pm

I favor repeating, "We can't know the whole story, Mom, we weren't there. Maybe there's another side to this. I'm staying out of it and I don't want to talk about it any more."

Practice ending conversations with her if she will not change the subject. If you feel she can't handle the truth without suffering, then this is probably your only recourse...and it's true, right? You know some of what your brother was involved in, but not even YOU know the whole truth.

Make the decision to get out of the drama, frugalone, and avoid it at all costs. Drama might have its own rewards, but it doesn't help you have a happy life.

If your brother starts to hurt your mom, another story entirely. But that doesn't sound like the case yet, right?

awakenedsoul

9-10-12, 2:03pm

Awakened, I'd love to hear more about your thinking. I am of such a different perspective! I'm sure I will learn from it! Thanks... here are my beliefs...

Keeping out of others business is not covering up, imho. As Byron Katie says, there's My Business, Your Business, and God's Business. If I am in Your Business, no one is tending to mine. This dude's behavior is his business, and no one else's.

And... The truth is so subjective! Has Mom asked son for the whole story? Would he report the circumstances as frugalone has? What is the truth here? I'm not questioning frugalone.

However, what is the internal truth that her brother is experiencing? Wy did he choose his actions as he did? Is he mentally ill? Deeply scared? Running from something? This is his life path to understand, and his mom's is hers. If I were in this situation, I'd step out of any triangulation, as that just makes things messier, and keep simple, clear boundaries with all.

I'm not saying this as a judgement, but I believe lies build upon lies. I would have told the SIL about the nudist activity to protect her from disease, and because she deserved to know. I would have shown the email to both the SIL and the mother. This way the mother would have known the reasons for SIL's behavior. I have a very legal mind. I like to see justice, and I say something if I see someone in danger. I'm the type who stops a bully. People in my family don't want me to know if they are doing something illegal or dangerous, because I will expose them. I find it makes my life cleaner and simpler.
I'm not in the situation, so I'm not saying this as advice. I have an entire family of addicts, so I know how painful it is. I know what it's like to have a parent who flaunts promiscuity. As I've gotten older, I don't "play the game." I see a chain of cause and effect. To me, not saying anything is like saying it's okay. If everyone knows what this guy was up to, he can't continue to manipulate his mother and sister. I also would be thinking of his child. The father could have been infected, the mother could have, too, and the child could have been an orphan. There are a lot of men "on the down low," and this is happening to innocent women and children. I know it's more complicated, but that's where I was coming from, in my perspective.
After that, I would stay out of it. I would feel an obligation to reveal what I had been told.

Jilly

9-10-12, 2:49pm

Perhaps the brother's business is his business, but he changed that when he involved his sister. Making it worse is that he lied to his wife about being with his sister whilst cheating on his wife, and I will bet that the only reason he even told frugalone about it and asked her to lie for him is because everything was probably beginning to fall apart.

When frugalone's brother involved her it stopped being just his business.

Lies serve only the liar. I suspect that his wife now knows most of what was going on and that mom suspects and may be in denial about it.

I do not want to impose my own experience on this, but keeping silent about what you know, and being the person who suffers most from that holding, is terrible, painful and personally-destructive .

Knowing what I know today, I would tell all of the players in this disastrous situation what I know. I would not stress over having kept silent so far, and would immediately share everything that I know.