Organic Foods - Worth the Cost?

[try2bfrugal]

Do you spend extra for organic foods, if so, what kind - produce, grains, meat? I go back and forth on this myself. I like the idea of organic food, but I have read that the rules are all voluntary compliance and in favor of big business. With four adults in the house it gets really expensive to buy organic.

What do you think?

[Rosemary]

If a product is USDA Certified Organic, there are very specific rules and compliance is not voluntary. However, it is a costly certification for farmers to obtain and in that regard does favor big business.

We focus on buying organic for the foods mostly likely to be contaminated - meats and dairy, as well as the "dirty dozen" published by the Environmental Working Group (ewg.org) every year. Organic foods, in addition to not using pesticides, herbicides, and synthetic fertilizers, are also not allowed to use some practices that conventional agriculture uses, such as the use of sludge as fertilizer and feeding arsenic to chickens to make them have a pinkish color. (Isn't that bizarre? Apparently chicken producers think that people prefer their raw chicken to be pink rather than the natural yellow that it should be.)

[bunnys]

I think I heard something like avoiding the "dirty dozen" cuts down by 97% on all pesticide exposure. This link shows a slide show of the dirty dozen but it says only 80% of pesticides will be avoided this way. But that's pretty significant too. Some veggies/fruits simply don't have that much pesticide residue on them because of the way they grow so you really don't have to go organic on everything.

I only eat organic tofu though bc I don't want any Roundup Ready soybeans.

I don't eat any dairy/eggs/meat but if I did there is NO way I would buy anything with BGH in it. Actually, I think I'd go organic on all that--including grass fed. I'd rather consume less of better quality that wouldn't make me sick if I were going down that road.

http://www.thedailygreen.com/healthy-eating/eat-safe/dirty-dozen-foods#fbIndex2

[redfox]

We buy all our food organic & from a food coop. I used to be a commercial farmer. I'm supporting my health as well as the health of the farmer & their sound practices, and I am happy to do so.

[IshbelRobertson]

I have bought only organic meats and eggs for nearly 25 years - at the beginning, that was considered madness by many of my friends! I grow a lot of my own veggies, and they are grown organically. I also buy organic veggies from the supermarkets, but not when they are at their most expensive.

I am not rabid about this though, in other words, when I go to a friend's home for a meal, I don't enquire whether or not the food is organically-raised - nor do I do so in restaurants!

[raeann]

Leafy greens is the #1 thing I buy organic. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't eat it otherwise. The some of the pesticides used on those plants are chemicals outlawed by the government, but allowed to continue to be used by certain farms due to paperwork and fine print. I can't remember the details, as I learned them 3 or 4 years ago, but I definitely didn't forget the lesson: buy organic lettuce and spinach because they have the worst chemicals on them! After that, it comes to what I can afford. If I could, I definitely would buy ONLY organic. Fortunately, we grow nearly all our own veggies, so we can save a few bucks there.

[SteveinMN]

I've bought largely organic for the last 10 years or so, for three reasons:

- I don't want the adulterants -- organic meat is not fed antibiotics on a preventive basis, nor is it butchered and then sold "with a solution of [some]% of" water and other chemicals I don't want. Though I'm on the fence about GMOs, I can understand not wanting to support a GMO market until I learn more and make up my mind. As others have mentioned, pesticides and herbicides and other "treatments" are not permitted for food labeled "organic" by most sources (though the USDA certification is probably one of the loosest out there);
- Frankly, most organic food just tastes better to me. The eggs taste like eggs, the cheese isn't pasty, the pork and chicken have actual flavors (they're not just chewy proteins), and, if I keep it local, the fruit and vegetables taste better to me as well (see the recent news article on the tomato gene that makes them look nice at the expense of their taste).
- Finally, when I buy organic I'm using my dollars to support businesses I trust and want to encourage. While I want to encourage organic alternatives wherever possible -- I'll buy Heinz's organic ketchup in preference to their regular ketchup -- I generally avoid products from old-school organic companies which are now part of the industrial-food conglomerates -- General Mills, Dean Foods, and Heinz own dozens of organic brands. In addition to the unadulterated aspect of the food, I appreciate the smaller scale of most organic farms and at least what I perceive as the interest in doing it right rather than simply doing enough to satisfy corporate shareholders every quarter. I appreciate that local organic producers are treating their livestock humanely and are not relying on massive public subsidies to handle fertilizer runoff and topsoil erosion or to provide "benefits" to transient undocumented workforces or to make it cheaper to haul their products thousands of miles over public highways and polluting everyone's air.

I don't always buy organic. I prefer to buy local (though in Minneapolis/St. Paul, "local" can include General Mills, Cargill, and Land O'Lakes, and I try to avoid those for the reasons stated above) so I will buy, for example, a local "inorganic" pear rather than an organic pear shipped all the way from Washington. Now that we're temporarily at one income, i do need to watch more closely what we're buying. But I'll still try to honor my values.

My point of view long has been that it's not that organic food is more costly than conventionally-produced food; it is that conventionally-produced food is heavily subsidized by all of us through taxes no matter where we are and where the producer is. Organic food costs what food should cost. Conventional food seems cheaper because so many of the real costs are bundled off to everyone, whether or not we eat the product.

[try2bfrugal]

Thank you all for your input. Since we got serious about FI I have been very good about cutting back on all of our expenses but it is very tough to do if I buy organic. I have been coming in under budget that last couple of months, so this month I decided to go back to buying more organic food. We do have some co-ops and a supermarket type natural foods place but they are 10 miles away. I will check out the co-ops and maybe I can go once a month and stock up on staples.

[Mrs-M]

From everything I have heard (and read), Organic (as a whole), is utter rubbish. "Save your money", would be my advice to anyone looking to venture into this tainted industry.

[bunnys]

From everything I have heard (and read), Organic (as a whole), is utter rubbish. "Save your money", would be my advice to anyone looking to venture into this tainted industry.

Why do you say this? It sounds like you're saying that consumers can't rely on the food they purchase actually being organic when you refer to it as a "tainted industry." Is that why you say save your money? Or do you think that pesticides aren't harmful. More details, please.

[Mrs-M]

Originally posted by Bunnys.
It sounds like you're saying that consumers can't rely on the food they purchase actually being organicYep, that's exactly what I am saying. A while back I watched a very interesting and informative segment on television related to the organic industry, and the program made it crystal-clear as to what a sham the organic industry really is. It was an eye-opener to say the least.

I wish I could remember many of the details mentioned on the program, but the jest of it was (Re: falsified organic products claims), was one, both regular and organic products are sprayed with the exact same chemical compounds, and two, nothing in the way of soil content or nutrients differs between regular or organic farming.

The program even highlighted the percentage of growers claiming to produce 100% organic goods, when in actual fact their product was not 100% organic (or even organic at all for that matter), and the percentage was asininely high.

The program concluded by saying, "if you do not personally know the grower you are buying from and how they farm, then chances are very good, you are not getting organic anything, when you buy from a regular store".

[Mrs-M]

To add, I wasn't at all surprised over the lying nature of the organic business after watching the program. It was in keeping with the sneaking-suspicion I had (all along) Re: the industry.

[creaker]

It's sad the regs for organic are constantly being pushed to be watered down so everything is "organic" >:(

That said, I find this helpful - at least you can pick your battles and go after the worst instead of having to decide all organic or not:

http://www.organic.org/articles/showarticle/article-214

[IshbelRobertson]

Mrsm


I obviously cannot talk to the rules governing 'organic' foodstuffs in either the USA or Canada - but here intheUK the Soil Association has very very strict rules about any foodstuffs which call themselves Organic.

[ApatheticNoMore]

There are hard and fast organic rules and they prohibit a lot of things (though we might wish they prohibited even more). How good enforcement of the rules are can be questioned. However I think there is a lot of money with a *vested interest* in making sure organic is organic (Whole Foods profits, profits of large organic producers etc. etc.), so I think there are forces that mitigate against it being entirely a fraud (money can corrupt, but sometimes money can protect also). Thus, I don't think the claim that it is entirely a fraud is that plausible on the surface, and I'd need a lot of proof of it. And I wouldn't want people to stop buying organic on the mere rumor that it is all a fraud (and if it is then we just need better methods of enforcement - not necessarily governmental - the solution is not in abandoning the concept entirely). Because the toll of conventional agriculture is real and serious. I've heard from a doctor that they never saw so many *children* with serious INTERNAL diseases (there is a medical name for these type of diseases but I forget) than well in parts about the California central valley (that is agricultural land, it's unlikely it's just due to pollution drift from urban areas - since the kids in the polluted urban areas are actually much healthier!).

[treehugger]

There are hard and fast organic rules and they prohibit a lot of things (though we might wish they prohibited even more). How good enforcement of the rules are can be questioned. However I think there is a lot of money with a *vested interest* in making sure organic is organic (Whole Foods profits, profits of large organic producers etc. etc.), so I think there are forces that mitigate against it being entirely a fraud (money can corrupt, but sometimes money can protect also). Thus, I don't think the claim that it is entirely a fraud is that plausible on the surface, and I'd need a lot of proof of it. And I wouldn't want people to stop buying organic on the mere rumor that it is all a fraud (and if it is then we just need better methods of enforcement - not necessarily governmental - the solution is not in abandoning the concept entirely). Because the toll of conventional agriculture is real and serious. I've heard from a doctor that they never saw so many *children* with serious INTERNAL diseases (there is a medical name for these type of diseases but I forget) than well in parts about the California central valley (that is agricultural land, it's unlikely it's just due to pollution drift from urban areas - since the kids in the polluted urban areas are actually much healthier!).

I agree with everything you said. I find it sad to think people would dismiss such an important and complicated topic out of hand, based on misinformation and rumor. And I also think that distinctions can and should be made between BigAg organic and small, local organic. I know for a fact that my local organic CSA is not a fraud, because I have researched them and been to their farms.

And I'm not saying even that BigAg organic isn't actually organic, but just that their business practices may not be better for their workers, the environment, and consumers than conventional produce. Monoculture is still monoculture, after all.

Kara

[awakenedsoul]

To answer the original post, yes, I definitely think it's worth the cost. I grow a lot of foods organically: lemons, oranges, tangerines, pineapple, apples, peaches, pomegranates, plums, persimmons, rhubarb, watermelon, cantaloupe, honeydew melon, blueberries, strawberries, blackberries, and raspberries. One the vegetable end: zucchini, pumpkins, potatoes, onions, garlic, lettuce, heirloom tomatoes, popcorn, chili peppers, and bell peppers. I also grow all my own herbs.

I started growing my own because it was so much more expensive to buy organic. I'm single, and it seeme to cost twice as much! With a family, I can see how it would really add up...I started by joining a local organic co op. We can go visit the farms and see their work. These farmers are very honest, dedicated, knowledgeable people. They give us the food at a 33% discount. I buy the fruit in bulk, and it's only $10.00 a case, for seconds.

Looking at my own soil, I'm amazed at the microbes, worms, and healthy bugs I find. My homestead is filled with birds, lizards, bees, butterflies, and wildlife. My family owns land in Napa Valley and they used to sell fruit to Del Monte. I remember we would get cases of pears sprayed with pesticides. I'll never forget that taste! It was nasty. My father still doesn't understand how I can grow all of this food without spraying. I just send it to him in boxes and let him sample the quality. I buy raw milk from a local farm, and raw cheese from a woman at our Farmers Market. The quality is superb! I'm thinking of getting a miniature dairy goat someday, and making my own. I buy grass fed beef from another local farmer, and organic free range chicken from our organic co op. I'm going to start buying their oats, too. It feels really good, emotionally. I have such respect for organic farmers, since I do it myself. I've been incredibly healthy and I have plenty of food to share with others.

When I was paying off my debt, I worked a side job down the road for a local farm, selling their produce at the stand. The owner was very threatened by the idea of not using Round Up, or other sprays. He started yelling at me when I explained I was just using compost and mulch on my land. So, I don't discuss it with people who feel that way. It's a waste of energy.

[razz]

Recommended foods that are low in pesticides.
1. Onions
2. Sweet Corn
3. Pineapple
4. Avocado Avocado
5. Asparagus
6. Sweet peas
7. Mango
8. Eggplant
9. Cantaloupe (domestic)
10. Kiwi
11. Cabbage
12. Watermelon
13. Sweet Potatoes
14. Grapefruit
15. Mushrooms


Read more: http://www.thedailygreen.com/healthy-eating/eat-safe/dirty-dozen-foods#ixzz20LLuJC4J

Mrs. M, I believe that the research program that you are referring to was about Canadian-grown foods. This may not be true for other countries. If one takes certain limited criteria and compare two foods from organic and non-organic, they may be the same in basic nutrients. If you change the criteria, the results will be different - organic has less undesirable residue, better taste, more of the nutrients, keeps the soil healthy and so on.

Yes, the 'organic' label has unfortunately been adulterated/abused by big business so I prefer to use the term pesticide-free. Food grown organically allows the soil to become healthy and alive and does taste better, IMO anyway

[IshbelRobertson]

I posted my earlier comment from my new Ipad - and wasn't sure how to cut and paste details re the Soil Association. Here's the link!
http://www.soilassociation.org/

[bunnys]

What I would like to know is that when one doesn't buy organic how effective are the various attempts to wash pesticides from produce prior to eating it.

I remember back when there was an E-coli scare (I think it was that one on spinach about 5 years ago) and I saw some show about trying to wash contaminants off produce and they used various methods for cleaning the produce. The gist of the results were that NOTHING made much of a difference. Rinsing with water wasn't much different than washing with hot water and soap and a scrub brush. But that was for E-coli. What about pesticides?

About a decade ago they had a bunch of produce washing products available in the produce section. I never bought any of it and now you don't see it being sold any longer. Does anyone know why these products went away and how effective or ineffective they were? Or how effective trying to wash pesticides off produce is, for that matter?

Any info would be helpful.

Sorry to thread-jack.

[try2bfrugal]

Sorry to thread-jack.

Not at all. That is a valid comment and I am interested in the topic as well. I want to provide healthy food for my family and I am interested in how to do this in low cost ways. I like buying produce at the local markets but I am unsure how much pesticide sprays are used.

[SteveinMN]

I like buying produce at the local markets but I am unsure how much pesticide sprays are used.
Perfectly valid question and very hard to ascertain without sampling and analyzing chemically. My guide is to ask the vendor if the produce has been sprayed with anything. I have to trust that they are answering accurately and most seem to. Then I can decide to buy or not. It helps to stick to the "Dirty Dozen (http://livingmaxwell.com/the-dirty-dozen)" list, as well, to identify the produce where pesticide use is most damaging.

Related to Mrs-M's statements, I know some "greenwashing" goes on in the big corporate organic industry as companies nudge up against the rules (for example, there is no definition for the word "natural" so it can be used with impunity, and "free-range" chickens don't have to have free range at all times of the day). We see the same kind of behavior with mileage ratings on some of the new hybrid cars, yet I don't think dismissing the entire auto industry is an appropriate response to that, either. There are organic producers (some large ones, even) who are truly committed to growing as healthfully and as minimally invasively as possible. I have every intention of supporting those producers and letting the rule-pushing products sit on the shelf.

[awakenedsoul]

bunnys,
You can wash your produce in a sink full of water with some baking soda in it. I read about a woman in New Mexico who did this, and I think she lived to be 97. From my understanding, it works well.

Here's the link for my co op. www.abundantharvestorganics.com (http://www.abundantharvestorganics.com) They are a great example of honest, successful, organic farming here in Southern California.

[Rogar]

I buy over half of my produce organic. One thing is for sure, if it advertised as organic it nay not be perfect but the chances are significantly higher than routine super market produce as being free of harmful pesticides and herbicides. I don't like to promote places like Whole Foods too heavily, but I have a good impression that they do their homework on their produce and it is pretty true to it's designation. I also have some faith in some of our regional farms, co-ops and CSAs as doing a reasonable job of advertising and behaving responsibly. Nothing scientific, just my impressions from what I've seen. And I'm pretty sure about my garden produce. Organic meats are often out of my budget through normal channels. But I don't buy much meat anyway and choose expensive organic about half the time I don't think I'm especially lazy, but sometimes it just seems easier to buy things from the standard super market two blocks from my house rather than hunting down good fresh organic produce 6, 8 or 10 miles away. I have not seen the Dirty Dozen list before and will pay closer attention to it in the future.

I am surprised sometimes at some people who complain about the high prices of quality foods, but have fancy cars and big houses,

[Zoebird]

When we lived in the US, the difference between being organic vs conventional in our neck of the woods was a meager $50/mo more expensive. Considering the better flavor and overall better product (in our experience), we made the switch.

Here in NZ, the price is sometimes 30-60% more for organic vs not-organic. Therefore, we buy the regular, since food is already very expensive here. We do focus on purchasing as much local as we can -- as many locals are running organic farms but are not certified organic because that is difficult in this country (and expensive). Many are just running 'conventional' farms, but they are local, which is nice.

Since it is cost prohibitive to buy organic, we no longer do.

[Tussiemussies]

Bunnys, someone a long time ago suggested that I wash off my produce with vinegar. I can see how this would disinfect it but I don't know how it would rinse off the pesticides. The downside is that even after rinsed the produce still had somewhat of a vinegar taste to it...

[redfox]

To add, I wasn't at all surprised over the lying nature of the organic business after watching the program. It was in keeping with the sneaking-suspicion I had (all along) Re: the industry.

I think this is true for mega-"food" producers. Not so for locally produced items. We buy via a food coop that does its own certification process, and is highly trustworthy. Excepting coffee, sugar & bananas, our groceries are grown in Washington. It pays to be careful, ask questions, and get to know your local farmers.

[Rosemary]

I always spray my produce - even organic - with vinegar, let it sit for a few seconds, and then rinse, washing it with my hands.
Cooks Illustrated tested a few methods of washing produce, but they were measuring bacteria, not pesticides. For bacteria, the most effective is using H2O2 (peroxide) and vinegar in a particular order - you can find it online.

I would guess that the pesticides that are simply sprayed on to otherwise untreated produce are not that difficult to remove (but this is just a guess). The more problematic treatments are likely the systemic pesticides, which are applied to the soil and which the plants take up through their roots, and those that are applied after harvesting (mostly fungicides) with a wax, as on apples and cucumbers and possibly other produce.