View Full Version : Do you raise your children with traditional gender roles?
Regardless of your arrangement between yourself and adult family members, do you raise your children to do all chores/duties well or do you have them specialize along traditional gender lines (boys do outside and messy stuff, girls do inside and creative stuff)? Do you follow your kids interests on this and have them do the chores they most enjoy?
I was thinking about this because of my neighbor across the street, who is a strong believer that girls/women should not do certain roles (this is not in a religious/biblical sense from what I've gathered). I feel sad for her daughter because I almost never see her outside playing, while her brothers are outside a lot. Maybe the girl would prefer to be inside alone or feels her brothers are too rough in their play, I don't know. The few times I do see the girl, she seems happy to be running around or playing lacrosse with her older brother, so I wonder how much her mother is hindering her.
DH and I are raising our daughters to understand that while some people think there are traditional gender roles, and while there have been in the past, they are not limited by them. We are pretty proactive in encouraging them to see outside of gender roles. DH is a SAHD and I work full time, so we are off to a good start, I hope.
I think a lot of parents reinforce traditional gender roles automatically, without thinking about it. They buy their daughter pink clothes. (Because if you look at the girls department, it's like a fairy tale threw up on that side of the store. It takes purposeful effort to avoid a closet of pink if you have daughters.) The daughter sees a section of the toy store with pink dolls and accessories. She sees her brother in orange, and sees a store with a separate section of orange play tools. Without encouraging gender roles, that is the message they will get, because of the way we learn, by making associations.
We have one DS and two DDs. As far as play goes DS and one DD were the rough and tumble, everything outside, go for it kids. The other DD was more the inside, crafty kid (although she does have several outside, sporting hobbies). We pretty much tried to expose them to all the options we had and let them fall into their own place from there. As far as chores go DS is very mechanical and very strong so kind of naturally gravitated toward the tasks that are traditionally considered masculine. I think those traditions exists simply because men are more likely overall to be mechanically inclined and stronger so we really didn't try to swim upstream just for the purpose of breaking any gender based tradition. That said, the girls put in a whole lot of time chopping firewood, moving rocks and at least learning how their cars work. DS had to do his share of dishes & housekeeping, his own laundry, etc. We tried to take advantage of each of their particular skill sets, and help shore up the weak points, but didn't give a whole lot of thought to traditional gender roles one way or the other. Most of the time it was just a case of everybody pitching in and doing what needed to be done.
... do you raise your children to do all chores/duties well ?
Yes. I see no reason why most skills/tasks should be have anything to do with my child's gender.
My daughter can compose music, ride a horse, fence with saber/rapier/longsword/Bowie, forage for food, hunt, fish, raise vegetables and food animals, cook, manage investments, speak foreign languages, do the dishes, navigate a boat on the ocean, repair automobiles and small engines, make jewelry, sew, train dogs, babysit, shoot/maintain/repair firearms, shop for groceries, paint a house, set up and maintain computer networks and maintain PCs, split firewood, trim brush and fell small trees, make fire 4-5 different ways, ...
If I had a son, he'd be learning the same things.
We haven't really made an effort either way, encouraging or discouraging gender roles. I have focused my emphasis on all of the kids gaining useful skills. I want them all to know how to cook, clean, fix stuff, change a tire and do pretty much anything else they might need to know how to do. My oldest daughter is as girly as they come when it comes to clothes and hair and toys, but she loves carpentry and electronics.
My second daughter... she's hard to describe. She'd be likely to wear a pink sparkly twirly skirt with a t-shirt with skulls on it. She has a pronounced dark side. :) She is not into carpentry, mechanics, robotics or any of the other stuff her sister is into but loves to cook and take care of babies. Both girls are obsessed with horses and superheros.
My oldest son is very boyish. He likes cars and trucks and he is all action all the time. He is a 3 year old testosterone tornado. He does like baby dolls though and is good with his baby sister.
The youngest boy is only 15 months old and the youngest girl is almost 3 months, so its too early to tell how they will be.
We have a boy (well,two now, but the second one is in the nurse/poop/sleep phase).
He is definitely a boy. But we still are raising him to learn all household chores. Heck, I didn't learn to cook until I was 32. My dh did all the cooking until then. Ds can learn too.
My sons are now grown. You know the old If I had only known what I know now, thought would I have done different, No when it come to gender specific tasks. Hubby and I do not have exact chores, so I do not think the guys were lead to think there were tasks that were only men or women tasks. I however stayed home fulltime most the years while hubby was in Europe, so they saw Mom doing many things that used to be considered men stuff. The thing I know they picked up on was that a Woman can do anything if she wants to. Perhaps they picked up Mom took care of the kids? more then Dad, that would not be a good thing however.
Yes. I see no reason why most skills/tasks should be have anything to do with my child's gender.
My daughter can compose music, ride a horse, fence with saber/rapier/longsword/Bowie, forage for food, hunt, fish, raise vegetables and food animals, cook, manage investments, speak foreign languages, do the dishes, navigate a boat on the ocean, repair automobiles and small engines, make jewelry, sew, train dogs, babysit, shoot/maintain/repair firearms, shop for groceries, paint a house, set up and maintain computer networks and maintain PCs, split firewood, trim brush and fell small trees, make fire 4-5 different ways,
This reminds me (delightedly) of this part of the Walt Whitman poem,
They are not one jot less than I am,
They are tann'd in the face by shining suns and blowing winds,
Their flesh has the old divine suppleness and strength,
They know how to swim, row, ride, wrestle, shoot, run, strike,
retreat, advance, resist, defend themselves,
They are ultimate in their own right--they are calm, clear, well-
possess'd of themselves.
I think I read that when I was 12 and wanted to be just like that as I grew up.
My parents gave up on trying to get me to be a "real girl" when I was young. But they refused requests for things like erector sets, chemistry sets, or a really good fielder's mitt. I guess it was girly or nothing in their book. Glad times are changing!
This reminds me of a book I recently read called Delusions of Gender: the real science behind sex differences. There is a large part about parents who try to raise their kids in a 'gender neutral' way and how often it backfires or doesn't work the way they had hoped, due to environmental/societal influences or unconscious adherence to traditional gender-based norms. She gave one example of a family who went to the trouble of editing picture books by changing the text and pictures to depict women in traditionally male roles and vice versa, and who also told their children that the only way you can tell if a person is a boy or a girl is by seeing what's in their pants :). Extreme, but it seemed to work.
I only have only one child -- a boy -- and he'll learn all of the various chores. Same if I was a girl.
He is very adamant (a nature of his age) that some things are "boy" things. For example, we are having car trouble, and some friends are helping us fix it. Also, a mechanic. All male. So, DS gets the idea that "working on cars is a boys thing." Of course it isn't, but it is true that in his experience, women don't work on cars.
That doesn't mean that I'm not interested in it, but when I do work on the engine (i.e., change oil, or make sure water and other fluid levels are good, etc), he pitches a fit about how he should be doing it because he's a boy and I'm a girl.
i think he's mostly in the 'pitch a fit' age.
We also just follow his interests in general. He wants a bow/arrows -- and my parents got him a nice set from cabbellas that they are sending to him for his birthday. He also asked for a baby doll and wants a girl doll. I'm going to get him a waldorf/steiner doll at the steiner craft fair in November. My friend is making a 'wrap' for his baby for me, since he was carried in a wrap and he asserts that he wants to carry his baby in a wrap.
I would say that most of his toys are non-gendered, whereas many of his girl friends have strongly gendered toys (houses, dolls, tea sets, etc). He has blocks, lego, some trucks that he asked for specifically, and stuffed animals of various sorts -- most of them weren't purchased until he was asking for specific ones, some of them were gifted out of kindness for him and so not his direct choice. I have some toys outside that he mocks up into a play kitchen (i wanted it to be open-ended) -- it's a bench, and then he has used kitchen/camp supplies that I picked up at the tip shop.
As far as chores go, he doesn't actually have any, btu he helps his father and I with our chores, and the kindy as well.
Square Peg
7-18-12, 6:28pm
My kids are being taught that gender roles are socially constructed. I have all boys, so it would get tedious if I got stuck with all the "girly" tasks.
Though we both work in engineering, at home Mommy does most of the cooking and baking and sewing, and Daddy does most of the fixit jobs and yard work. That is just where our skills and interests lie. Our four-year-old daughter seems fairly equally interested in participating in all of it, so far.
I try not to be judgmental of anything she shows interest in, whatever stereotype it might fall under. So I indulge her love of sparkles, pink and foofy princess dresses, as well as her Thomas the Tank Engine obsession. She has plenty of gender neutral toys too (blocks, puzzles, stuffed animals, art supplies) and a vast imagination.
Our young adult children were definitely not raised to be limited by socially antiquated roles based upon gender! Consequently, both cook, use power tools, make art, etc. my DSD is a tech theatre grad student, and comfortable in a shop building things. DSS is a fine arts major, and due to a rheumatoid disorder, no longer super physically active. He was a skier & bicyclist, but pain has stopped those activities.
They are both very competent at life skills, and both, I believe, will carry on into adulthood being unhindered by those dying role assumptions. The results of being born in the last decade of the 20th century, and being raised by a boomer Radical feminist hippie (me) and a Gen X'er feminist man. <fist pump>
We also focus on life skills more than gender-based roles. We're both engineers, so I've spent my share of time defying gender roles already (when I was at the university, women were about 15% of the engineering school - and represented a smaller proportion of some of the departments in which I worked).
Around the house, I do the vegetable garden, the cooking, and most of the inside chores. DH mows the lawn, shovels snow, and occasionally vacuums. We both fix things and do maintenance. DD helps with all of these tasks and has her own chore list that includes indoor and outdoor chores. DD loved her train set when she was younger, played with cars, still uses Legos more than dolls. But she also does play with dolls, likes to play dress-up, and likes pretty clothes.
Wow! If I am shipwrecked on an island, I want bae's daughter there to take care of me.
As a single parent, my kids observed me doing "girl and boy" chores. And their fathers as well, though one of them does not know how to clean a house.
And now as teens/adults they do what they prefer:
DS#1--he "takes care of the yard" and his wife "takes care of the inside of the house" though he cooks more than she and they both do laundry.
DD--mows ditches with tractor and attachments, will help load hogs if paid, cleans house, does laundry, can do minor repair of bike. Does not cook. Plays three instruments.
DS#2--cleans house, does laundry. Not very mechanical. Does not cook. Says that's what peanut butter is for. Plays three instruments well, and two just starting out.
DS#3--does not clean house very well, does laundry, but does not fold clothes. Can take apart your bike, clock, 2-cycle motor and put it back together with only a couple left-over parts. Plays four instruments.
My dad taught me how to change the oil in my car and gap the spark plugs (no use in the current car w/ injectors.) I'm a self-taught cook. My grandma's maid taught me how to iron. What I have observed in other humans and myself, is that if I want to do it, I will teach myself or find someone to teach me. If I do not want to do it, even if I know how...I will pay someone else to do it.
I'm at a crossroads Re: the raising of my children and the teachings of traditional chores/duties/responsibilities.
My husband is terribly old-fashioned Re: the male role, so a lot of his ideals and ways rubbed off on the boys (early on), so consequently the boys naturally shied-away from all things girls, and as for my daughters, I took them under my wing and taught them (from an early age) all things mom/homemaker.
Oldest daughter helped with her baby brother in all areas from the get-go. (Feeding, changing diapers, etc), and when the baby boys (#5 and #6) were added to our family unit, both girls took on mother roles.
I attempted to get oldest son on-board with a little baby-care (youngest two), but no go. He wouldn't bite, and in many ways, I was OK with it.
I do think (in many ways) I, too, have become quite old-fashioned Re: gender roles. I like the idea of reserving feminine roles for girls, and more masculine roles for boys, albeit, I'm not against the swapping of the two, just that I have gotten quite used to the fact that certain things are better left to us girls, while other certain things are better off left to the boys.
To add, I did manage to get my oldest son interested in learning how to iron his own shirts, after he asked me if I could teach him how, which of course caused me to glow with happiness and contentment.
I have gotten quite used to the fact that certain things are better left to us girls, while other certain things are better off left to the boys.
I was hoping to hear from you on this thread Mrs M. I was hoping you could give me some insight into my neighbor. WHY do you feel things should be determined by gender and not interest (not a criticism, a genuine wishing to learn)? What makes girls more suitable to say, cook dinner and boys more suitable to say, mow the grass?
I grew up in a traditional household and I was shamed and criticized/yelled at/forbidden for not wanting to play with dolls, or for wanting to go outside and climb trees. When I got older, my mother told me I would never get a boyfriend unless I acted dumb, because "boys don't like smart girls". I was not allowed to take shop, instead had to take home ec even though I already was an accomplished cook and fair sewer at that point. I had pushed against traditional gender roles most of my life, including selecting a profession where women are a small minority. I always felt like those around me were trying to stuff this square peg into a round hole, and I thought there was something wrong with ME. (Of course I know better now, and my husband says "I like smart women".)
Additionally, I'm a firm believer in the idea behind, if you are raised such and such a way, chances are, you'll steer towards practicing the same. I never learned/did guy things (at all) growing up, and IMO that goes a long way towards securing little-to-no change when raising ones own children. Monkey-see, monkey-do...
Originally posted by Herbgeek.
I was hoping to hear from you on this thread Mrs M. I was hoping you could give me some insight into my neighbor. WHY do you feel things should be determined by gender and not interest (not a criticism, a genuine wishing to learn)? What makes girls more suitable to say, cook dinner and boys more suitable to say, mow the grass?Your opening words made my day! :)
Let's examine babysitting for openers. Both girls and boys can babysit, and although neither gender automatically qualifies as being "the better" suitor for such a job/position, girls (as a general rule), are more loving and nurturing, thus making for better candidates for such.
Example: Kid falls down and starts to cry, girl babysitter reacts by gently picking child up and hugging him/her, while boy-sitter asks child if he/she is OK. I know- I know, my example doesn't make for a strong case towards equality and credit, where credit is due, because I blanketed boys (in general) to react the same, even though I know exceptions do and would exist, however, in my experience, boys (for the most part), simply are not born with the natural nurturing qualities of girls. So, Re: babysitting, I believe girls (better) fit the mold for such.
Another example, stay-at-home moms. Sure, there are lots of women who fancy careers outside the home, but knowing what I know about the women on both sides of our family (immediate and extended), the women traditionally prefer being at home with the children and caring for all things home-front. With all things home, comes the likes of cooking, cleaning, organizing, etc. It's not so much that women are the only ones who are allowed, entitled, or suited for stay-at-home duties, or that they can do it better, just that "traditionally", it's the woman of the house who stays-at-home, while the man of the house works outside the home, supporting those who are dependent on him.
Re: lawn-mowing, same thing. Most women I know would rather leave that aspect of home-maintenance up to the male figure in the relationship, because getting dirty and playing around with mechanical stuff isn't (for the most part) something that most women fancy, so boys (IMO) definitely rise above their female counterparts when it comes to things like that.
To add, I did manage to get my oldest son interested in learning how to iron his own shirts, after he asked me if I could teach him how, which of course caused me to glow with happiness and contentment.
When DD plays, the dollhouse dad is the only one who gets to do the ironing. (In practice, our awesome cleaning lady does most of the ironing, but DH has been known to iron a shirt in an emergency. I'm pretty sure she's never seen me iron...)
On babysitting:
One of my very first enterprises was a baby-sitting service a friend of mine and I offered. We were 11-12 at the time, and we were both boys. We provided a puppet-and-magic show as part of the deal, and came certified with all sorts of merit badges in Dealing With Things. We made a fortune, and were usually solidly booked, and the kids in our market area demanded us, so we charged a premium price.
Viewing your child as "a girl" or "a boy" instead of as an individual is so limiting for them.
Cute story, Maribeth! :)
I totally agree with you, Bae, Re: viewing a child as a girl or boy, rather than an individual.
One of the biggest reasons behind my old-fashionedness, comes by way of (from the time I opened my eyes), "girls babysit, boys cut lawns". I'm not saying it was as black-and-white as that (in our house), but close, and now (after so many years), it's really difficult to look beyond such teachings/beliefs.
I believe strongly that children should be encouraged to be true to who they really are, not pruned into miserable little bonsais of themselves. Like Herbgeek, I got the wise counsel (snort!) about playing dumb and letting boys win at games, etc. I didn't buy it for a minute, and still don't. If you start out playing a role, you may be stuck with it for life.
I've never had a moment's interest in baby sitting, and very little in the domestic sphere in general. I wish I could have taken shop instead of wasting time sewing aprons. (Aprons! My God.) IMO, children should be taught a wide range of life skills across a spectrum similar to those bae's daughter is learning--if for no other reason than to challenge and expand their little brains. More practically, they'll be able to use those skills to their advantage later in life.
I find I have very little in common with people who subscribe to the idea of strict gender roles, for the most part.
I find I have very little in common with people who subscribe to the idea of strict gender roles, for the most part.
I also find I am not attracted to such people as potential friends or relationship partners.
I met my wife in high school, ~35 years ago. She was the only girl in my Physics and Calculus and Latin classes, and taught me to ride horses, cross-country ski, and fly fish on weekend trips with her family. She lured me in with her brains and skills.
Well....hmmm. I only have sons, no daughters.
I just called home a bit ago to ask if they'd done the dishes and laundry yet and that they needed to vac/dust the living room.
Well....hmmm. I only have sons, no daughters.
I just called home a bit ago to ask if they'd done the dishes and laundry yet and that they needed to vac/dust the living room.LOL! Such chores (in our house) have no attached gender requirements, and believe me, I capitalize on it!
Let's examine babysitting for openers. Both girls and boys can babysit, and although neither gender automatically qualifies as being "the better" suitor for such a job/position, girls (as a general rule), are more loving and nurturing, thus making for better candidates for such.
Example: Kid falls down and starts to cry, girl babysitter reacts by gently picking child up and hugging him/her, while boy-sitter asks child if he/she is OK. I know- I know, my example doesn't make for a strong case towards equality and credit, where credit is due, because I blanketed boys (in general) to react the same, even though I know exceptions do and would exist, however, in my experience, boys (for the most part), simply are not born with the natural nurturing qualities of girls. So, Re: babysitting, I believe girls (better) fit the mold for such.
My mind on this is quite different.
I wouldn't have a boy babysitter not because of his inability to be loving, but because of -- in my observation of many boys the same age as girls who sit for us -- is that they tend to be slightly more impulsive and less 'universally aware' of their surroundings.
That being said, i don't think girls at the same age hold the market on this skill, nor are they necessarily going to have those skills. One of my firends in high school would have made a terrible babysitter for that exact reason, whereas a male friend of mine at the same age would have been excellent.
So, I think that what I look for in a sitter is not just consideration for the little child, but also a sense of awareness around the potential risks that the kid might get into, and how to avoid those risks. And also, the ability to handle emergency situations in a calm and direct manner (which I find is often more a skill of boys than girls, but both genders mature into this by about age 16/17 in my experience).
I would have no problem having my 16 yr old girl apprentice babysit for DS, but I also would have no problem with her 18 yr old brother doing the same. And DS likes both young people.
I would say that our 14 yr old babysitter doesn't have the same skill as our 17 yr old one (first one being a girl, second one being a boy); but also I wouldn't trust a 14 yr old boy in my home to babysit when I would a 14 year old girl.
So it really depends upon maturity and the person's skill sets and the needs at the time.
We are going to an over-night of movies in the near future, so we'll ahve the male, 17 yr old boy stay overnight with us and do the bed time routine with DS.
Another example, stay-at-home moms. Sure, there are lots of women who fancy careers outside the home, but knowing what I know about the women on both sides of our family (immediate and extended), the women traditionally prefer being at home with the children and caring for all things home-front. With all things home, comes the likes of cooking, cleaning, organizing, etc. It's not so much that women are the only ones who are allowed, entitled, or suited for stay-at-home duties, or that they can do it better, just that "traditionally", it's the woman of the house who stays-at-home, while the man of the house works outside the home, supporting those who are dependent on him.
Re: lawn-mowing, same thing. Most women I know would rather leave that aspect of home-maintenance up to the male figure in the relationship, because getting dirty and playing around with mechanical stuff isn't (for the most part) something that most women fancy, so boys (IMO) definitely rise above their female counterparts when it comes to things like that.[/QUOTE]
Your opening words made my day! :)
Let's examine babysitting for openers. Both girls and boys can babysit, and although neither gender automatically qualifies as being "the better" suitor for such a job/position, girls (as a general rule), are more loving and nurturing, thus making for better candidates for such.
Example: Kid falls down and starts to cry, girl babysitter reacts by gently picking child up and hugging him/her, while boy-sitter asks child if he/she is OK. I know- I know, my example doesn't make for a strong case towards equality and credit, where credit is due, because I blanketed boys (in general) to react the same, even though I know exceptions do and would exist, however, in my experience, boys (for the most part), simply are not born with the natural nurturing qualities of girls. So, Re: babysitting, I believe girls (better) fit the mold for such.
Another example, stay-at-home moms. Sure, there are lots of women who fancy careers outside the home, but knowing what I know about the women on both sides of our family (immediate and extended), the women traditionally prefer being at home with the children and caring for all things home-front. With all things home, comes the likes of cooking, cleaning, organizing, etc. It's not so much that women are the only ones who are allowed, entitled, or suited for stay-at-home duties, or that they can do it better, just that "traditionally", it's the woman of the house who stays-at-home, while the man of the house works outside the home, supporting those who are dependent on him.
Re: lawn-mowing, same thing. Most women I know would rather leave that aspect of home-maintenance up to the male figure in the relationship, because getting dirty and playing around with mechanical stuff isn't (for the most part) something that most women fancy, so boys (IMO) definitely rise above their female counterparts when it comes to things like that.
But do these qualities/tendencies arise solely out of nature or could it be nurture and societal influence? The age-old question!
I am striving to change 'traditional' gender-based roles in my own family. My partner and I split household chores/management tasks already and I am dead-set on continuing this once we have children. We'll both be asking for part-time hours from our employers (you are allowed to request this, but who knows if the employers will actually agree to it! I'm scared that his employer won't, because the 'traditional' gender roles are so ingrained, unfortunately). I do not want to get into a situation where work and home are completely synonymous for either of us. I'd also like my partner to be able to confidently take charge where the kids and household stuff are concerned. Both sets of our parents are traditionally gender-split, so we'll have to make a strong conscious effort.
mira, I think there are some biologically explained differences. We are not the same, obviously. I recall someone telling me once that they didn't think there was anything different between men and women except biology, but biology is not something inconsequential. The biological differences between me and my cat, for example, can tell you something about what you might expect from each of us. :) Beyond the obvious example of pregnancy, men are generally physically stronger, for example.
Does that mean that individuals of either gender should be limited to "girl tasks" and "boy tasks"? I don't think so, but it might be a consideration if I am weighing a 14 year old boy or girl babysitter that, in general, women seem to have the ability to focus on more things at once and at an earlier age, something that is important if you are watching children. It's one factor among many, but it's a factor.
In my case, Mira, societal influence, definitely plays a role in how I approach this, that, and the fact I'm a traditionalist (through and through).
You know... times have changes sooo much compared to 40 years ago.
Forty years ago, dads didn't change diapers.
Forty years ago, dress-code in schools was, boys wore pants, girls wore dresses/skirts.
Forty years ago, there was a gender-divide on school grounds. (Boys on one side, girls on the other).
Forty years ago, any boy found out to babysit, would have been laughed off the face of the planet!
Forty years ago, classroom studies (in school) seen traditional attendance (gender specific). i.e., Home-economics (girls), woodworking/metalworking (boys). You never seen a guy take Home-EC, just as you never seen a girl take metalworking.
I believe for some people (as myself), something got in the way of me growing accepting of, and open-minded to, non-specific gender roles, which, doesn't make me a bad person.
I believe for some people (as myself), something got in the way of me growing accepting of, and open-minded to, non-specific gender roles, which, doesn't make me a bad person.
Nope it certainly doesn't make you a bad person at all. I think each person should have the freedom (both personal freedom as well as social freedom) to be how they want to be in life, and to do what works best for them, as well as for their families However I think it's when people force "their way" as the "only way" onto others that is when people get upset. You don't do that and seem to respect other's personal choices - just as other's respect yours.
If I had kids I'd probably have them each do all tasks equally irregardless of gender. However if one child had more of an interest in certain things, I'd be happy to let them follow that interest - again irregardless of gender. Like other's here, I came from a very traditional family background where gender roles were expected to be strictlu adhered too. I rebelled big time and eventually my parents came to recognise that each of us kids were individuals with varied interests and skills and allowed us more freedoms to choose our own way and cross gender lines. But, even though they were very open to us doing things outside what they thought was appropriate for girls or boys, they still held the belief that is certain things were only for girls and certain things were only for boys. And that each gender wasn't capable of doing what the other gender was - at least not as well. I had no problem with their beliefs because they didn't force those beliefs onto us kids. Did my parents ever fully accept my and my siblings life style? My Dad did but my Mom never did. She "tried " to understand and be supportive but just never "got it". Kept waiting for me to "see the light" and change. Didn't happen. So while she never understood the choices or lifestyle I had (or that of my siblings), and didn't feel it was an appropriate life for a woman, she never condemdend me for it and, in her way, was proud of what I had accomlished in life. But if she could choose for me, she would have choosen a vastly different existence.
You know... times have changes sooo much compared to 40 years ago.
Forty years ago, dads didn't change diapers.
Forty years ago, dress-code in schools was, boys wore pants, girls wore dresses/skirts.
Forty years ago, there was a gender-divide on school grounds. (Boys on one side, girls on the other).
Forty years ago, any boy found out to babysit, would have been laughed off the face of the planet!
Forty years ago, classroom studies (in school) seen traditional attendance (gender specific). i.e., Home-economics (girls), woodworking/metalworking (boys). You never seen a guy take Home-EC, just as you never seen a girl take metalworking.
I believe for some people (as myself), something got in the way of me growing accepting of, and open-minded to, non-specific gender roles, which, doesn't make me a bad person.
Just out of curiousity, what would you do if any of your kids didn't want to follow traditional gender roles in their lives? Either as young kids or adults? I always joke with my friends who have young kids and list all the plans and dreams they have for their kids future, that their kids may end up wanting and doing exactly the opposite.
I also find I am not attracted to such people as potential friends or relationship partners.
I met my wife in high school, ~35 years ago. She was the only girl in my Physics and Calculus and Latin classes, and taught me to ride horses, cross-country ski, and fly fish on weekend trips with her family. She lured me in with her brains and skills.
Wow, that's a bummer. Hard to believe it was like that - it was probably only 10 years (or less) before I was in HS. My classes were at least half female.
You know... times have changes sooo much compared to 40 years ago.
Forty years ago, dads didn't change diapers.
Forty years ago, dress-code in schools was, boys wore pants, girls wore dresses/skirts.
Forty years ago, there was a gender-divide on school grounds. (Boys on one side, girls on the other).
Forty years ago, any boy found out to babysit, would have been laughed off the face of the planet!
Forty years ago, classroom studies (in school) seen traditional attendance (gender specific). i.e., Home-economics (girls), woodworking/metalworking (boys). You never seen a guy take Home-EC, just as you never seen a girl take metalworking.
I believe for some people (as myself), something got in the way of me growing accepting of, and open-minded to, non-specific gender roles, which, doesn't make me a bad person.
Interesting thoughts. I know that when I was in HS, I took home-ec and the boys took shop. But by the time my brother hit that grade (2 years later), both had to take both.
I have a friend from my new mom's group with my 6 year old. She asked many of us how we got our husbands to help with the baby - her husband just wasn't interested. I said 'honey, your husband is 60! He's our parents' age. Men didn't do that often back then.'
...
I am striving to change 'traditional' gender-based roles in my own family.
Well, good luck with that. I've told this story many times, so you long term SL people can nod off.
Boys like guns, right? Or is that nurture not nature? My mother strove mightily to keep toy guns away from my brother. When he was about 8 he took every penny he had and bought a very realistic looking toy gun. He wanted one and she wouldn't get it for him, so he went out and did for himself.
Fast forward decades and now he's nearly 50 years old. He has a concealed carry permit and a few guns and a lifetime NRA membership.
Maybe boys are wired to like guns, or maybe our mother's weird obsession to keep him "peaceful" backfired to give him an obsession. Who knows, but I think it's unfortunate when parents make their children live according to the parental agenda. If your girls like pink dresses and dolls, that's fine, and if your boys like them too, help them figure out how to channel that interest.
DH OTOH grew up on a farm and can do anything: fix motors and carpentry and grow crops and gardens as well as traditional women's work such as canning, baking, and preserving the garden produce.
A toy handgun was on the list of asked-for items I never got. My mother was big on the gender-appropriate stuff. It's a wonder I was allowed to play in the mud and raise tadpoles. Warped for life, you betcha! :~)
cattledog
7-24-12, 10:30pm
My DD will probably grow up thinking that men do stuff like fixing cars, wiring homes, installing plumbing and women do things like clean, cook and grocery shop, since that is what DH and I do. I stay home with her now and DH works, so I do most of the domestic stuff. She'll probably never really grasp that I had a well-paying career for the last two decades (we are older parents). Oh well. I told my hubby to make sure that she learns how to fix cars though. That seems like a good skill to have.
A toy handgun was on the list of asked-for items I never got. My mother was big on the gender-appropriate stuff. It's a wonder I was allowed to play in the mud and raise tadpoles. Warped for life, you betcha! :~)
My Mom eventually gave in and gave me a toy handgun - as well as a cowboy hat, chaps, and a little holster. So maybe nuture does goes much farther then nature :-)!
I had the basic girl-stuff: Barbies and baby dolls and a "Suzy Homemaker Oven". I liked dressing them up in their little outfits, combing their hair, cooking a cupcake under a 100 watt little bulb. Then using most of the Barbies and Baby dolls in the endless "war" games my slightly older brother and I used to play in the backyard. The much renowed "Battle of the Barbies and Babies verses the G.I. Joes" are infamous in our family. Nothing like a "Baby-Poops-Alot" flung at high speed into a trench of G.I. Joes to give new meaning to the word Weapons of Mass Destruction :-)!
Many great points, Spartana. I agree, we all can't be the same, and that's the way it should be. Even today, I find strong European families tend to be traditionally-minded, supporting gender-specific roles for their children. As far as approaching and accepting my children's gender-equality needs, I would do that (for sure). ROTFLMAO, re: the doll wars of your childhood!
MM1970. Exactly. My dad is in his 70's, and has NEVER changed a diaper in his life! Not-a-one! That doesn't make him a bad dad, just that my dad (along with 99% of all other dads during that time/era) conformed to the ideal male-figure in the house. i.e. Work outside the home, and when it came to the raising of children, warming a bottle or taking a little one out for a stroller ride, simply didn't figure into the equation, neither did spelling-off mom in the middle of the night.
Originally posted by Iris Lily.
Maybe boys are wired to like gunsThey are IMO. I could share endless stories related to gender likes and dislikes, but the one that stands out in my mind the most, related to such (in our home), was when we moved the boys in with us (our two youngest). There was dolls, toy guns, blocks, stuffed animals, games, you name it, we had it in our house, so the boys weren't binded to play with any "one thing", and as sure as I expected, both boys went straight for the toy guns and boy-things (right away), the very instant they were introduced to the toy-box! Any dolls unfortunate enough to have been in the way of whatever they were after, got tossed off to the side without care.
JaneV2.0. Guess what? Had you been my daughter, you probably wouldn't have gotten that toy gun you asked for, either.
Cattledog. Your situation made me think about a little something that took place in our home related to my kids and their exposure to girly-things. When our last was born (a son, 2002), both of my daughters were absolutely giddy over the idea that we now had a new baby in the house, and with just under ten years difference between oldest daughter and youngest-born son, and just over five years difference between oldest daughter and youngest daughter, I instantly had two mothers-helpers!
They wanted sooo bad to help with EVERYTHING! Oldest son, however (18 months junior to oldest sister), cared less. In fact there was many an occasion where he vocalized his displeasure of a screaming, crying baby in the house, and, "what were we going to do when we were out in public"! LOL! My daughters, however, embraced their baby brother with open arms and hearts, and not because that was how I curtailed things to be in our home, just that my daughters (like myself) already had the natural motherly instinct in them.
DS watched a few diaper changes, a few feedings, and asked a few questions, then quickly faded into the backdrop of his own world. It was apparent he was not interested... my daughters on the other-hand, never tired helping with changing, feeding, etc.
I had a younger sibling and zero interest in diaper-changing (I don't remember ever changing one) or child care chores in general. The women in my family aren't big breeders (understatement), so I'm guessing the lack of enthusiasm for motherhood has a genetic component. We're not all the same, and that's a good thing, IMO.
You know... times have changes sooo much compared to 40 years ago.
Forty years ago, dads didn't change diapers.
Forty years ago, dress-code in schools was, boys wore pants, girls wore dresses/skirts.
Forty years ago, there was a gender-divide on school grounds. (Boys on one side, girls on the other).
Forty years ago, any boy found out to babysit, would have been laughed off the face of the planet!
Forty years ago, classroom studies (in school) seen traditional attendance (gender specific). i.e., Home-economics (girls), woodworking/metalworking (boys). You never seen a guy take Home-EC, just as you never seen a girl take metalworking.
True. Maybe in another 40 years, we'll be looking back and reminiscing about how funny it was that there were so few stay-at-home dads. Who knows!
mira, I think there are some biologically explained differences. We are not the same, obviously. I recall someone telling me once that they didn't think there was anything different between men and women except biology, but biology is not something inconsequential. The biological differences between me and my cat, for example, can tell you something about what you might expect from each of us. :) Beyond the obvious example of pregnancy, men are generally physically stronger, for example.
Yes, but biology is also malleable and not necessarily 'hard-wired' as we are often led to believe. As Ms Fine, the author of the book I mentioned in my first post stated, "because of the brain's plasticity in responding to the world around it, differences in male and female brains can't just be chalked up to congenital biological differences. 'The circuits of your brain are a product of your physical, social and cultural environment, your behaviour and your thoughts,' she says. 'Gender as a social phenomenon is part of our neural circuitry.' "
Suffice to say, since reading her book, I've become very skeptical of the simplistic "male brain vs female brain" idea without consideration for the world around us... it's food for thought anyway!
Rightfully so, Jane, we all can't be the same, and I agree, that's a good thing.
Mira. Such a change from then till now, isn't it.
When she was about 8 months old, DD took part in a study that was designed to determine whether gender preferences existed even in baby brains. They put a tiny EEG cap on her, and showed her images of "girl" things (baby dolls, dresses, etc.) and "boy" things (trucks, toy soldiers) and "neutral" things (charts, graphs, text). With the EEG and some eye tracking software they tried to determine if she would look at some images longer or differently than the rest, or if different brain waves would be active.
We were curious about the effects of environment -- would she look longer at things that seemed familiar, or unfamiliar? (We have a lot of charts and graphs around the house!) Unfortunately the researchers didn't have a clear hypothesis on that issue. She was the first test baby and I don't think the results of the study have been published yet. It will be interesting to find out if there was in fact a statistical difference between boys and girls.
How interesting, Maribeth.
Square Peg
7-28-12, 5:49pm
I don't know if this has been covered here, but it is so hard to tell genetic from environment because gender is so deeply engrained in our society. Mothers respond to babies differently based on their gender, and this happens from birth.
When she was about 8 months old, DD took part in a study that was designed to determine whether gender preferences existed even in baby brains. They put a tiny EEG cap on her, and showed her images of "girl" things (baby dolls, dresses, etc.) and "boy" things (trucks, toy soldiers) and "neutral" things (charts, graphs, text). With the EEG and some eye tracking software they tried to determine if she would look at some images longer or differently than the rest, or if different brain waves would be active.
We were curious about the effects of environment -- would she look longer at things that seemed familiar, or unfamiliar? (We have a lot of charts and graphs around the house!) Unfortunately the researchers didn't have a clear hypothesis on that issue. She was the first test baby and I don't think the results of the study have been published yet. It will be interesting to find out if there was in fact a statistical difference between boys and girls.
I had a younger sibling and zero interest in diaper-changing (I don't remember ever changing one) or child care chores in general. The women in my family aren't big breeders (understatement), so I'm guessing the lack of enthusiasm for motherhood has a genetic component. We're not all the same, and that's a good thing, IMO.
That's funny Jane, same here. I was nine years old when my brother was born and I'm certain I never changed a diaper. I wasn't wired to be mommy's little helper and fortunately my mother didn't expect that.
When she was about 8 months old, DD took part in a study that was designed to determine whether gender preferences existed even in baby brains. They put a tiny EEG cap on her, and showed her images of "girl" things (baby dolls, dresses, etc.) and "boy" things (trucks, toy soldiers) and "neutral" things (charts, graphs, text). With the EEG and some eye tracking software they tried to determine if she would look at some images longer or differently than the rest, or if different brain waves would be active.
We were curious about the effects of environment -- would she look longer at things that seemed familiar, or unfamiliar? (We have a lot of charts and graphs around the house!) Unfortunately the researchers didn't have a clear hypothesis on that issue. She was the first test baby and I don't think the results of the study have been published yet. It will be interesting to find out if there was in fact a statistical difference between boys and girls.
This reminds me of that well known study about gender in babies. Didn't it find that female babies focused for longer periods on people's faces? longer than boys, I mean.
Square Peg
7-28-12, 8:56pm
When I was 7, my sister paid me a dime to watch her sleeping baby (my niece) while she went outside and helped my dad lay the foundation for the garage. That was my first exposure to babies, and I don't remember being very hands on with them either. Also, I really never had dolls. They creeped me out. Except for 1 in 3rd grade, and a couple of china dolls when I was older. I liked stuffed animals instead.
I don't know if this has been covered here, but it is so hard to tell genetic from environment because gender is so deeply engrained in our society. Mothers respond to babies differently based on their gender, and this happens from birth.
I agree. There is so many environmental factors influencing gender even before birth that it's hard to tell what is what. Rooms and clothes and toys are pink or blue even before the child is home. Mother or Dad may behave differently and speak differently to a male or female child even at birth. Lots of little ques about gender that many parents don't even realize they are doing. As a person who never had kids, I see those different parental behaviors very clearly amongst my friends when they interact with their kids. It's something they don't seem to see, or think about, but that behavior can greatly influence babies gender I think. Especially as the kids get older. I think by age 8 months, the age one posters child was for the gender studies, that child has been so bombarded with "gender signals" that many things are ingrained already.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.