View Full Version : Colorado residents/members, thinking of you this morning (theatre shooting).
Thinking about all those who reside in the Colorado area, and hoping everyone is OK this morning.
How sad/disturbing/horrifying. Guns. Anyone can get them anywhere. We know how this thread is going to go....... But I'm here to say, we have a BIG problem with guns in this country. And I would truly like to see that change.
Yes, we do know how this will go. If a few people in that theater had been armed and properly trained the outcome may have been very different. You can't regulate mental instability out of the population. The guy who did this could just as easily have killed people by ramming a stolen cement truck into the theater. It seems we in North America live in an increasingly violent society. That is the issue. If not for that part guns could be checked out like movies at Blockbuster without any problems. Guns do not cause violent behavior, but something does. Until we move past the denail and figure out what does we will continue to wake up to tragic stories like this one. Heart fealt sympathy and wishes for peace to eveyone affected by this.
I know guns don't kill people kill. Give me a break. I have also hurd the story line that if others were trained and were armed they could have stopped him. I don't believe in fairy tells either.
My prayers are with my fellow citizens in Colorado.
At the last movie I attended, for some reason I had a thought out of nowhere that someone could come in and start firing and we would all be trapped in that space.
It is all very sad that violence is so normalized and accepted in our culture. No doubt that very movie was full of it, too.
I know guns don't kill people kill. Give me a break. I have also hurd the story line that if others were trained and were armed they could have stopped him. I don't believe in fairy tells either.
How about this fairytale from just last week? http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/national-international/71-Year-Old-Man-Shoots-Would-Be-Robbers-at-Ocala-Internet-Cafe-Authorities-162941656.html
It is all very sad that violence is so normalized and accepted in our culture. No doubt that very movie was full of it, too.
+1 That is exactly what the sad part is. Our whole society is in denial. It is oh so much easier to blame the tool rather than try to figure out why a criminal chooses to use it. I'm no shrink but it sure seems like a constant barrage of violent images are going to take a toll on people, especially those who are for whatever reason more impressionable or open to suggestion. There is a certain tragic irony, and I bet no coincidence, that this took place where it did. Hollywood is the biggest generator of violent images on the planet and the "stars" don't make eight digit incomes because nobody is watching. Our society is obsessed with violence. Are such images the only reason someone would commit an act like this? Highly unlikely, you hope there has to be something else wrong, too. Even so, the desensitizing effect of constant exposure to that kind of imagery must have an impact on all of us.
Well, we just are never going to agree on this issue.
ApatheticNoMore
7-20-12, 1:27pm
Yea pretty much :). And really guns are the least of the problems this country has.
It seems we in North America live in an increasingly violent society. That is the issue.
But is there ANY evidence it is an increasing violent society? Crime has been down the last couple of decades, heading steadily down. Now the sociologists stand with their mouths agap because many subscribed to the theory that the economy being in the tubes should have increased crime. The economy IS in the dumpster, but it didn't. Now we do lock up a massive part of the population (more than any country in the world, how about that for a BIG problem this country has?), so that might be part of it. As in: hey half (really not quite that many) the population of young males is behind bars for some reason or other, no wonder there's no crime. Yea the population behind bars is a pretty big mark of a really messed up society right there, that needs to lock up all those people just for what, to function? But I don't think that can be narrowed down to "guns".
It is all very sad that violence is so normalized and accepted in our culture.
Is it normalized? The main "normalization" of violence in this society is the acceptance of endless war. I admit that alone does sometimes make me think my society is insane. I will say this: way more normalization of violence comes out of Washington than Hollywood, what Washington is normalizing is atrocious and immoral and it has the added benefit of being *REAL* not fiction.
I know guns don't kill people kill. Give me a break. I have also hurd the story line that if others were trained and were armed they could have stopped him. I don't believe in fairy tells either.
My prayers are with my fellow citizens in Colorado.
And yet, in another Colorado shooting event, an armed citizen saved dozens if not hundreds of people.
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_17482832
...A bunch of great observations....
Very well said, ANM.
How about this fairytale from just last week? http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/national-international/71-Year-Old-Man-Shoots-Would-Be-Robbers-at-Ocala-Internet-Cafe-Authorities-162941656.html
Here is just a partial list of mass shootings in the us since 2007. Get real we are violent society with too many guns. It is just too easy for someone to get. Colorado has laz concealed weapons laws so all most anyone in the theater could have opened up. Then how many more people would have been killed. To pull a weapon in a dark movie theater with 100s of people in it and kill the shoter requires skills that the majority of people do not have. Again I say get real.
"Get real" you say...
Yet your comments are not based in reality. Colorado doesn't have "laz" concealed weapons laws, for instance. I'll leave you to look up the details.
Get real we are violent society with too many guns....
May I introduce you to the works of Dr. John Lott (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lott_(econometricist)). You may be interested in his signature work, More Guns Less Crime (http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493636) which is available at the link provided, or at your local library if you prefer.
Another day, another excuse to argue about gun control?
For heaven's sake, people. I have two friends MIA who were bound for that film last night. Can we possibly suspend the debate until the dead are buried?
Another day, another excuse to argue about gun control?
For heaven's sake, people. I have two friends MIA who were bound for that film last night. Can we possibly suspend the debate until the dead are buried?
Apparently our political leaders are unable to do so, because they've already been leaping on the tragedy before the blood is even cold.
Oh gosh Pug, I hope they are okay. :(
Puglogic-My thoughts and prayers are with you tonight. I sincerely hope that your friends are found safe and sound. What a terrible, terrible nightmare for all who are involved...
ApatheticNoMore
7-20-12, 3:35pm
Another day, another excuse to argue about gun control?
For heaven's sake, people. I have two friends MIA who were bound for that film last night. Can we possibly suspend the debate until the dead are buried?
yes well the 2nd post in this thread headed down that road, so the thread was doomed from that second post in it I figure, then everything else just followed from that 2nd post I think.
I live in a Denver suburb and and fortunately don't know anyone who was in attendance. Denver is a fairly big city with a variety of neighborhoods and it is slightly disturbing to have had a couple of these types of shootings.
At times like this, gun issues get a little confusing to me. I think a lot of people or most have guns for home defense, but I don't know of anyone who would live in enough fear to take a gun to a theater showing for self defense. If that is what the world is coming to, we are regressing back to the days of the wild west.
I think a lot of people or most have guns for home defense, but I don't know of anyone who would live in enough fear to take a gun to a theater showing for self defense.
You can trawl through earlier threads for lengthy discussion on that point. To summarize: your assumption that people carrying firearms are "living in fear" is likely incorrect.
I've been carrying a firearm every day for decades now, I don't "live in fear". I've had auto insurance, fire insurance on my home, and catastrophic medical insurance on my body, but I'm not "living in fear" waiting for an auto accident, a wildfire, or for cancer to strike.
I don't know of anyone who would ... take a gun to a theater .
I have. Didn't last time. Will next time. The bigger issue to me is I usually carry a smaller one on such occasions and would have anticipated a COM POI.
Miss Cellane
7-20-12, 4:11pm
Just as guns don't kill people, the presence of a gun doesn't automatically mean that you are safer.
In the Colorado shooting, a gun in the hands of a member of the audience *might* have meant that the shooter could have been put out of commission. It also might have meant that additional audience members could have been shot in the confusion, with the tear gas or whatever it was filling a darkened room.
A gun in the hands of my cousin, 25 years a police officer, yes, that might be safer. In the hands of my 30 year veteran military brother, yes, that might be safer. In the hands of someone who takes gun safety seriously and practices at a shooting range or other safe place and who has learned, through experience, how to handle the gun and who also can keep her/his head in a tense situation, yes, that might be safer.
In the hands of someone who bought a gun to be "cool" or to "protect my family" who then puts the gun in a drawer and never learns anything about how to hold it or aim it or shoot it--scares the living daylights out of me to think someone like that could be in the movie theater with me, with a loaded weapon.
Just as guns don't kill people, the presence of a gun doesn't automatically mean that you are safer.
True enough - just as owning a guitar doesn't make you a musician, owning a gun doesn't make you magically able to use it effectively. It's sort of a straw man point though - I don't think many people will reasonably advance the argument that a gun itself is sufficient.
In the hands of someone who bought a gun to be "cool" or to "protect my family" who then puts the gun in a drawer and never learns anything about how to hold it or aim it or shoot it--scares the living daylights out of me to think someone like that could be in the movie theater with me, with a loaded weapon.
Unlikely to be the case in Colorado, which requires
The applicant must meet the following criteria:
- Successfully complete a background investigation, which includes, but is not limited to; information obtained from the National Crime Information Center, Colorado Crime Information Center, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Colorado Bureau of Investigation, and other Law Enforcement Agencies.
- Be a resident of the county of application. (Active military stationed in the county qualify as residents)
- At least 21 years of age upon receipt of your application.
- Submit proof of completion of a firearm safety or training course or class
- Provide a copy of your current Colorado Driver's License or Colorado ID and if applicable your Military ID and active duty orders.
Furthermore, my own state, which has no training requirement or performance standards before issuing permits to carry a concealed handgun, and which has been this way for many decades, has not seen any significant number of instances of the sort of person you fear shooting up public places and hitting bystanders.
So, I suspect the "guy ...who then puts the gun in a drawer and never learns anything about how to hold it or aim it or shoot it" who causes you to "scares the living daylights out of ..." you is more a creature of fiction than fact.
Yes, we do know how this will go. If a few people in that theater had been armed and properly trained the outcome may have been very different. You can't regulate mental instability out of the population. The guy who did this could just as easily have killed people by ramming a stolen cement truck into the theater. It seems we in North America live in an increasingly violent society. That is the issue. If not for that part guns could be checked out like movies at Blockbuster without any problems. Guns do not cause violent behavior, but something does. Until we move past the denail and figure out what does we will continue to wake up to tragic stories like this one. Heart fealt sympathy and wishes for peace to eveyone affected by this.
Well, it would appear someone in that theater WAS armed.:(
I wonder if any of the dead or wounded were NRA members, supporting this guys right to have all those guns? Did he have a license for those? Go through the states list of requirements to own them? Oh, ok, well then it's all good.
I just love how the rabid NRA types are saying...'Now if MORE people were carrying guns....!'
I wonder if any of the dead or wounded were NRA members, supporting this guys right to have all those guns?
"All those guns". From the accounts, he had a shotgun, a rifle, and a pair of handguns. Probably not off-the-end-of-the-curve for much of Colorado.
The implicit point behind "all those guns" in that sentence seems to be "even four firearms is too many for a civilian to own"... Four is too many, presumably 3 is OK, or is it 2? Or 1? Or, likely I guess, 0...
I just love how the rabid NRA types are saying...'
"The rabid NRA types". Really? Out come the cultural insults, the demeaning of others, wonderful job!
They probably haven't even mopped up the blood from the crime scene yet...
For shame.
Miss Cellane
7-20-12, 5:12pm
True enough - just as owning a guitar doesn't make you a musician, owning a gun doesn't make you magically able to use it effectively. It's sort of a straw man point though - I don't think many people will reasonably advance the argument that a gun itself is sufficient.
Unlikely to be the case in Colorado, which requires
Furthermore, my own state, which has no training requirement or performance standards before issuing permits to carry a concealed handgun, and which has been this way for many decades, has not seen any significant number of instances of the sort of person you fear shooting up public places and hitting bystanders.
So, I suspect the "guy ...who then puts the gun in a drawer and never learns anything about how to hold it or aim it or shoot it" who causes you to "scares the living daylights out of ..." you is more a creature of fiction than fact.
I never said that there would be more crime. I just said that I fear guns in the hands of people who don't know how to use them. People with little or no training. People who do not know how to keep calm in a tense situation. I think this is a reasonable concern.
And you present no proof that there aren't untrained people who own guns. You just quote crime statistics, which really aren't my concern here. My concern is that someone who barely knows how a gun works might open fire in a stressful situation and hurt the very people she/he is seeking to protect.
Guns in the hands of trained killers--sure, no problem. They aren't going to be taking out innocent bystanders by mistake.
I'm not totally against guns. I have friends who hunt and who treat their weapons with care and keep them locked up when not in use. I have friends and family members in law enforcement and the military--some own their own weapons, some don't. But they all use them with care and a concern for the safety of others.
What I'm concerned about are the people who get guns and don't know how to use them and who may do something stupid with them. I don't want to be killed by stupid. I have no problem with stupid people killing themselves by doing something stupid. I do have issues with stupid people doing stupid things that hurt or kill other people.
Let's face it. The shooter in the theater, if he really wanted to hurt lots of people, could easily find a way to do so without a gun. He could have set fire to the theater, released a toxic gas in his workplace, run his car into a small coffee shop, poisoned the drinking water at a school. A gun was just easier for him to get ahold of.
I wasn't speaking of crime statistics. I was speaking of the number of incidents of law-abiding citizens lawfully carrying weapons who inappropriately use them in this sort of self-defense situation, and injure bystanders. There are so few they are in the noise. You can dig and find a few here and there, but you are more likely to be struck by lightning.
You bring up your fear as a reasonable concern - I agree, it is right to be concerned about the risk presented. A reasonable person would then look at the data and perform a risk analysis, and then almost certainly come to the conclusion that the risk was miniscule, and that it was not reasonable to "fear" the risk.
Miss Cellane
7-20-12, 5:20pm
I wasn't speaking of crime statistics. I was speaking of the number of incidents of law-abiding citizens lawfully carrying weapons who inappropriately use them in this sort of self-defense situation, and injure bystanders. There are so few they are in the noise. You can dig and find a few here and there, but you are more likely to be struck by lightning.
You bring up your fear as a reasonable concern - I agree, it is right to be concerned about the risk presented. A reasonable person would then look at the data and perform a risk analysis, and then almost certainly come to the conclusion that the risk was miniscule, and that it was not reasonable to "fear" the risk.
So now I'm unreasonable?
Thanks ever so.
Have a nice day.
On the other side of the coin, the specifics of this incident are being discussed at the moment in a law enforcement training group I am involved with. The consensus opinion is that this, with the details available at present, was likely a no-win situation for even pretty highly-trained and equipped people, given the circumstances.
The fellow was wearing comprehensive body armor, and used gas for concealment and distraction. The theater was full of folks trying to get away. It was dark. Etc.
Now, some of us have trained a lot in the dark, and in smoke-filled structures, and carry handguns with small lightweight optical sights that allow for rapid target acquisition, fast follow-up fire, and better-than-average accuracy, and practice a great deal with them. And yet, in this situation, much of that wouldn't have helped anyways, is the suspicion.
So, while guns aren't necessarily the problem, guns aren't necessarily a solution to every incident - sometimes there's just not much you can do.
Even if it works that way in the movies....
So now I'm unreasonable?
I did not say that, now did I?
Well, it would appear someone in that theater WAS armed.:(
I wonder if any of the dead or wounded were NRA members, supporting this guys right to have all those guns? Did he have a license for those? Go through the states list of requirements to own them? Oh, ok, well then it's all good.
I just love how the rabid NRA types are saying...'Now if MORE people were carrying guns....!'
Having spent the majority of my adult life in CO I am aware that a significant portion of the population there does own guns. I do not know what percentage are NRA members, but can assure you that the ones who are support the rights of a citizen to legally own guns. They also support extensive training programs available to members and non-members alike. I have not heard if the shooter in the theater was a NRA member, if he came by his guns legally or if he was legally allowed to own guns (felony record? mental illness history? etc.) so I will not take the popular course and jump to conclusions.
Defense of the 2nd amendment can be difficult when an individual takes a course of action that is against everything we know as right. There are similarities to what it takes to defend the 1st amendment when someone spouts off views that rub you the wrong way. Living in a free society is not easy. I choose to stay here and by doing so will continue to support the right to carry on by those with views different than my own and will also support the right of citizen to legally purchase a firearm.
On the other side of the coin, the specifics of this incident are being discussed at the moment in a law enforcement training group I am involved with. The consensus opinion is that this, with the details available at present, was likely a no-win situation for even pretty highly-trained and equipped people, given the circumstances.
The fellow was wearing comprehensive body armor, and used gas for concealment and distraction. The theater was full of folks trying to get away. It was dark. Etc.
Now, some of us have trained a lot in the dark, and in smoke-filled structures, and carry handguns with small lightweight optical sights that allow for rapid target acquisition, fast follow-up fire, and better-than-average accuracy, and practice a great deal with them. And yet, in this situation, much of that wouldn't have helped anyways, is the suspicion.
So, while guns aren't necessarily the problem, guns aren't necessarily a solution to every incident - sometimes there's just not much you can do.
Even if it works that way in the movies....
A no win situation is a sad but very possible outcome when something like this happens. I'm curious bae, is there a suggested course of action? I'm thinking mostly of my teen daughter. Instinctively I want to tell her to stay as low and hidden and still as possible until there is a clear and easy way out, then run like hell. Do you know of recomendations based on past cases that indicate the best chance to come out alive?
On the other side of the coin, the specifics of this incident are being discussed at the moment in a law enforcement training group I am involved with. The consensus opinion is that this, with the details available at present, was likely a no-win situation for even pretty highly-trained and equipped people, given the circumstances.
The fellow was wearing comprehensive body armor, and used gas for concealment and distraction. The theater was full of folks trying to get away. It was dark. Etc.
Now, some of us have trained a lot in the dark, and in smoke-filled structures, and carry handguns with small lightweight optical sights that allow for rapid target acquisition, fast follow-up fire, and better-than-average accuracy, and practice a great deal with them. And yet, in this situation, much of that wouldn't have helped anyways, is the suspicion.
So, while guns aren't necessarily the problem, guns aren't necessarily a solution to every incident - sometimes there's just not much you can do.
Even if it works that way in the movies....
I agree with bae. This was a situation in which even a highly trained police officer in the theater would of been no help. We're did he get all of this equipment including tear gas, and bomb making material.
I'm curious bae, is there a suggested course of action? I'm thinking mostly of my teen daughter. Instinctively I want to tell her to stay as low and hidden and still as possible until there is a clear and easy way out, then run like hell. Do you know of recomendations based on past cases that indicate the best chance to come out alive?
This is of no comfort, but "it depends". The duck/cover/lockdown approach, the scatter-and-run-like-bunnies approach, and the everyone-throws-objects-and-fleshpiles-attacker approach all have pluses and minuses, and it really depends on the motivation and mental outlook of the attacker, the physical layout, the reactions of the other people at the scene, and a dozen other things.
There's no good cookbook approach. Awareness, quick-thinking, and not being paralyzed are the top-level things to work on.
This is of no comfort, but "it depends". The duck/cover/lockdown approach, the scatter-and-run-like-bunnies approach, and the everyone-throws-objects-and-fleshpiles-attacker approach all have pluses and minuses, and it really depends on the motivation and mental outlook of the attacker, the physical layout, the reactions of the other people at the scene, and a dozen other things.
There's no good cookbook approach. Awareness, quick-thinking, and not being paralyzed are the top-level things to work on.
Oh good..you are discussing it analytically. Gee, maybe you can get lucky and your gun group can re-create the scene so you 'armed defenders' can be ready...next time.
Of course, there are dots to connect, but we aren't allowed to do that in this country. Don't want to offend the NRA now do we? Don't' want to say that every gun purchase, in or out of a gun show, should be recorded and saved on a national database. Nor can we say that someone who starts buying guns hand over fist, like it is reported this guy did, should ring some bells and call for investigations. Nope, can't do that.
Love that you are defending this guys right to arm himself to the teeth. IN fact, you should write an essay for your local paper saying how this guy had a right to buy all these guns, since you are defending his right and all. Be sure to add the part about how 'we recommend everyone who buys all these guns go through proper training'. I'm sure that would bring comfort to everyone. Knowing that you recommend it and all.
Shame on you!
Having spent the majority of my adult life in CO I am aware that a significant portion of the population there does own guns. I do not know what percentage are NRA members, but can assure you that the ones who are support the rights of a citizen to legally own guns. They also support extensive training programs available to members and non-members alike. I have not heard if the shooter in the theater was a NRA member, if he came by his guns legally or if he was legally allowed to own guns (felony record? mental illness history? etc.) so I will not take the popular course and jump to conclusions.
Defense of the 2nd amendment can be difficult when an individual takes a course of action that is against everything we know as right. There are similarities to what it takes to defend the 1st amendment when someone spouts off views that rub you the wrong way. Living in a free society is not easy. I choose to stay here and by doing so will continue to support the right to carry on by those with views different than my own and will also support the right of citizen to legally purchase a firearm.
Yes, and the pitbull breeders of America 'recommend' everyone train their dogs.
Even the 1st amendment has it's limits.
Pug, how are you doing? Are your friends accounted for?
Just got a text 17 minutes ago.
My friend Mark's new baby wouldn't stop crying and go to sleep, and so at the last minute he stayed home with his wife instead of going to the film (with a mutual buddy).
Now I can't stop crying.....it's like holding your breath as long as you can, and then it all comes out.
And the media feeding frenzy is so very, very sickening. We're awash with wannabe Geraldos, all after the next heartfelt vignette, the next gun-control comment pitting neighbors against each other, the next "which politician said what inflammatory remark," the next lurid little tidbit that will get clickthrough. I can't decide which is more horrible - the event, or what the media DOES with the event.
Simpler at Fifty
7-20-12, 7:24pm
Peggy you are rude.
I agree with bae. This was a situation in which even a highly trained police officer in the theater would of been no help. We're did he get all of this equipment including tear gas, and bomb making material.
I would suppose that an ordinary person could find all of this in an afternoon on the internet or talking with folks at gun shows for some simple black market items. Tear gas is basically pepper spray. Here is a sampler of what a person can buy on the internet. I think you can make explosives with some common household items if you find the right instructions. http://www.keepshooting.com/clear-out-6oz-tear-gas-grenade.html
Just got a text 17 minutes ago.
My friend Mark's new baby wouldn't stop crying and go to sleep, and so at the last minute he stayed home with his wife instead of going to the film (with a mutual buddy).
Now I can't stop crying.....it's like holding your breath as long as you can, and then it all comes out.
And the media feeding frenzy is so very, very sickening. We're awash with wannabe Geraldos, all after the next heartfelt vignette, the next gun-control comment pitting neighbors against each other, the next "which politician said what inflammatory remark," the next lurid little tidbit that will get clickthrough. I can't decide which is more horrible - the event, or what the media DOES with the event.
Oh honey... In all the heat and fear, the gun debates pale in comparison with knowing your friends are safe. I'm so glad. Please, everyone, consider lowering the temperature a bit here?
I would suppose that an ordinary person could find all of this in an afternoon on the internet or talking with folks at gun shows for some simple black market items.
The gun shows I have attended in California, Washington, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, and Colorado over the past three decades have had not much in the way of "black market items", but a good solid law enforcement presence was at each. It would seem to me that trying to sell black market goods at a gun show would be a pretty quick way to end up in Federal prison.
Was this fellow carrying anything purchased via the "black market", or were they all legal goods?
(Making bombs, of course, gets you in all sorts of Federal hot water, and it is impossible to stop people from getting their hands on materials that can be used to make bombs. Even if you occupy their country with the best-funded military on Earth. )
Pug - I'm so glad your friend didn't go to the movie.
Yes, and the pitbull breeders of America 'recommend' everyone train their dogs.
Even the 1st amendment has it's limits.
And yet I still stand willing to defend your right to speak your mind...
There's no good cookbook approach. Awareness, quick-thinking, and not being paralyzed are the top-level things to work on.
I guess that makes perfect sense. Above all else I've always preached to my kids "don't panic"...in any situation. Glad to know that at least that much seems to hold up.
Peggy you are rude.
And simpler at fifty, you don't get it.
Peggy, I think we get it, and you're getting increasingly out of line. Please tone it down.
Pug - I'm so glad your friend didn't go to the movie.
I am wading through and ignoring the vast majority of this. And yes I am kinda pissed the way this thread is going. I am very glad your friends did not go Pug. I knew 2 people there, both are okay. One works there, in fact I know many young people who have worked there and the group they hang out with attends movies there, my staff attends movies there, the suspects house is 2 miles from me.
I am waiting because we most likely will recognize someone when the photos and names are released. I have been up and down since 3 am (the first report I got I just thought the shooting was a gang incident, we lost a police officer 10 minutes from my house a few weeks ago, last Sunday my church parking lot was a crime scene but the victim survived that shooting). I have several people I know that could have easily been there besides the 2 that were there.
Guess what, none of us here directly or semi-directly affected by this are jumping into the gun debate. If I have more to share I will start my own thread. I would appreciate not using what is happening in my community for your debates, just start a debate thread and leave this one to be for those affected and those who care,
[QUOTE=puglogic;91601]Just got a text 17 minutes ago.
My friend Mark's new baby wouldn't stop crying and go to sleep, and so at the last minute he stayed home with his wife instead of going to the film (with a mutual buddy).
Now I can't stop crying.....it's like holding your breath as long as you can, and then it all comes out.
QUOTE]
I think I may actually be able to let loose and cry soon, but sleeping will take awhile.
I greatly appreciate everyone who put aside questions that cannot be answered today, this event has happened. The people affected need to be cared for. I think I understand the casserole approach. My coping was to go to work and care for a lot of kids, then come home and care for people here.
Guess what, none of us here directly or semi-directly affected by this are jumping into the gun debate. If I have more to share I will start my own thread. I would appreciate not using what is happening in my community for your debates, just start a debate thread and leave this one to be for those affected and those who care,
+1!
Sorry this happened so close to you, Zoe Girl and you, Pug Logic. When this stuff happens and it's like 1 degree of separation it's just so much more stressful than feeling bad when you hear it on the news. So much stuff has happened up and down the Front Range this summer, everyone is closely affected by something and it just sucks. I don't think I know anyone involved, but pretty sure my boss's wife knows the shooter. Ugh. And I agree with your disdain for the out of town reporters, Pug. They suck too.
iris lily
7-21-12, 10:20am
And one of the victims, a dead girl, survived a random mass shooting in a Mall in Toronto. What are the odds of that?
I am waiting because we most likely will recognize someone when the photos and names are released. I have been up and down since 3 am (the first report I got I just thought the shooting was a gang incident, we lost a police officer 10 minutes from my house a few weeks ago, last Sunday my church parking lot was a crime scene but the victim survived that shooting). I have several people I know that could have easily been there besides the 2 that were there.
Hugs to you, Zoe Girl. The names are trickling out as families are notified, and everyone in my circle is reading them with this mix of dread and relief and guilt, because all you can really think is, "Please don't let anyone I love be on that list." So selfish, but true.
When I see Mark's baby girl next, I'm going to give her the biggest hug.
Peggy, I think we get it, and you're getting increasingly out of line. Please tone it down.
OH, are you saying this as an administrator Alan? How exactly am I getting out of line. Exactly. Cause I haven't called anyone names, or said anything against those poor people. All I've said is, we aren't allowed to connect the dots that lead to this tragedy. I don't believe offending your delicate gun sensitivities, or speaking against the power of the NRA is against forum guidelines.
so, you are offended that I manage to trace this tragedy to guns, but no one seems to be offended by the incredibly insensitive and arrogant meme that "If only I were there with MY gun things would have been different!' as if a dark room full of George Zimmerman's would have changed the outcome. What arrogance!
You know what offends me? What offends me is how quickly you all jumped in with your analysis on how 'armed protector citizens' would have SAVED THE DAY!. Not only is that really delusional, but incredibly insensitive to all those who were injured or the families of those who lost their lives. Just as insensitive as the inevitable preacher who will step forward within 24 hours (or maybe has already) to declare that HE/we 'forgive' the shooter.
All the gun toting, swaggering hero wanna be's make me nauseated. I guarantee each and every one, coast to coast, is right now shaking their heads thinking, "if only I were there, with MY gun.."
Now how exactly does this opinion go against the forum guidelines?
OH, are you saying this as an administrator Alan?
Nope, as you may know, I'm very much in favor of free expression. However, this thread was not designed as a vehicle to vent our personal frustrations for or against gun policies. Several of our members have expressed the desire to stop it from going in that direction and I think they are right in doing so. Someone else has even started a new thread where it would be more appropriate. If you want to move the discussion there, I'll be more than happy to comment on your points. Hope to see you there.
Thank you Alan and others for the support in separating topics.
I know 3 people who were shot, one has died. He is the one who threw himself in front of his girlfriend. She was also shot but it likely to survive.
And one of the victims, a dead girl, survived a random mass shooting in a Mall in Toronto. What are the odds of that?
A merchant in Baghdad sends his servant to the marketplace for provisions. Shortly, the servant comes home white and trembling and tells him that in the marketplace he was jostled by a woman, whom he recognized as Death, and she made a threatening gesture. Borrowing the merchant's horse, he flees at top speed to Samarra, a distance of about 75 miles (125 km), where he believes Death will not find him. The merchant then goes to the marketplace and finds Death, and asks why she made the threatening gesture. She replies, "That was not a threatening gesture, it was only a start of surprise. I was astonished to see him in Baghdad, for I had an appointment with him tonight in Samarra."
(traditional, via Maugham, Wikipedia)
Life, sadly, imitating art.
Zoe Girl- I'm sorry this has touched you on such a personal level. Stay strong and know we're here if you need something. I remeber how I felt when the Twin Towers went down- waiting and wondering if I had lost anyone I knew that day. Thankfully none of my friends were killed.
Puglogic-That is great news! I'm so very happy for you.
Simpler at Fifty
7-21-12, 7:43pm
We watched the national news tonight and they interviewed one of the guys shot in the neck. He was still in ICU. He was biking across country and decided to stop and catch the movie. He said he will have long scars on his neck but that will be good because he will look in the mirror each day and know he has to do his best. This is the reason I am glad the media flocks to these places. Several states away I would not get to hear that story or see the people that were asked to hug 4 people on the spot last night. Most of us live in places where there have been horrific crimes and the media came in droves. It seems intrusive when it is in your own neighborhood but for those of us that are wondering what is going on, this is our only way to 'see' the good stories that came out of this along with the sad reason they are there.
ZG, so sorry to hear about your friends. What an awful tragedy.
pug, so glad that baby was fussy!
I am not going to jump into the gun debate but think it is appropriate to raise a related issue -- the role of mental illness in these kinds of things. Can we all agree that a sane person would not act in this way? That seems obvious to me. So what can be done to better identify the types of mentally ill individuals that might act out like this and get them the help they need so that this kind of tragedy doesn't happen? Because if we control guns then without help they will probably still find another way to inflict major harm.
lhamo
ZG, so sorry to hear about your friends. What an awful tragedy.
pug, so glad that baby was fussy!
I am not going to jump into the gun debate but think it is appropriate to raise a related issue -- the role of mental illness in these kinds of things. Can we all agree that a sane person would not act in this way? That seems obvious to me. So what can be done to better identify the types of mentally ill individuals that might act out like this and get them the help they need so that this kind of tragedy doesn't happen? Because if we control guns then without help they will probably still find another way to inflict major harm.
lhamo
I continued this discussion on the other thread, and in advance, I apologize for copying lhamo's post on that other thread if that is a problem.
Nope, as you may know, I'm very much in favor of free expression. However, this thread was not designed as a vehicle to vent our personal frustrations for or against gun policies. Several of our members have expressed the desire to stop it from going in that direction and I think they are right in doing so. Someone else has even started a new thread where it would be more appropriate. If you want to move the discussion there, I'll be more than happy to comment on your points. Hope to see you there.
I didn't actually start this gun debate in this thread, just added my opinion well into the debate, so it was really kind of unfair to pile on me. But I will gladly take time to gather my thoughts and post them in that other thread.
I heard from all of my Co folks today. One in the same area, not at the theater at the time, otherwise everyone else is accounted for.
And, being semi-connected, I still spoke about gun issues in the public policy thread.
pug, glad that your people are ok.
ZG, sorry to hear of the losses close to you, as well as the injured. My thoughts are with everyone of course.
I'm glad the gun debate will continue on in the appropriate setting because it is an important topic. This is a good and appropriate place to work through some other issues that deeply impact all of us. I didn't know anyone in the theater, but do have several friends in the area. Sending good and positive thoughts to all of you that were affected by this terrible event.
We've had huge amounts of media coverage here and I have been amazed at the number of everyday heros in this story. I've lost track of how many folks put themselves in harm's way to protect or help a friend or a stranger. Some of them made the ultimate sacrifice.
I've heard a few accounts of ordinary young people using proper first aid or CPR that might have been life saving. The police made an appearance with in one or two minutes or being notified and made an immediate arrest with firing a round, which probably had an element of luck. This person, suspect A, was probably a borderline genius but the devices left in his apartment didn't harm anyone and were defused without destroying evidence or the building.
It is a hugely unfortunate thing, but the acts of bravery and sharp judgement are impressive almost beyond words. I sometimes wonder of all places, why Colorado, for several of these incidents. But I am proud and amazed at the good acts my theoretical neighbors have shown.
My dd went to our local mid-night showing of Batman -- this was the first time we allowed her to do this -- and probably the last.
We tend to be overly protective. My dw grew up in a very rough part of town and has tried to make sure our dd's avoid situations that could put them in harms way. Basically she specializes in scaring the crap out of them.
I think kids can feel invincible - like it will never happen to them - but unfortunately it can, and they must never let their guard down. In today's world kids (and adults) need to know how they will react in an emergency situation.
My heart go out to these families who have been harmed by the crazy man. Wow, what makes someone turn into such an evil person? I can't help but think that the voilence protrayed in movies today played a roll in this. It seems like Hollywood is always pushing the envelope. I can't even begin to imagine how his family is feeling right now. So sad.
...
My heart go out to these families who have been harmed by the crazy man. Wow, what makes someone turn into such an evil person? I can't help but think that the voilence protrayed in movies today played a roll in this. It seems like Hollywood is always pushing the envelope. I can't even begin to imagine how his family is feeling right now. So sad.
My first thought was SSRI psychosis, and then I thought maybe incipient schizophrenia. Certainly if he was always a murderous madman, it wasn't apparent to people who knew him casually.
I was also impressed at how so many people reacted (and knew first aid!). One of mygoals in this coming school year is to form some partnerships based on a conference withFEMA for disaster preparedness for youth inour after school programs. I would love to have babysitter and home alone safety courses as well. I know that in Colorado it seemed that they were not taking any more volunteers for types of citizen emergency responders because they already have so many. I could be mistaken however it seems we have a prepared population here.
My organization wrote me a nice note about how this affected me personally and I thought that was very nice. I was appreciated to remember how these shocks impact us all.
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