View Full Version : Saving the frog....interferring with nature
I have several small watergardens in my back yard. Usually there are some water snakes and green frogs. This year there haven't been any because of the heat/drought. But yesterday, DH saw a snake. Then I heard a green frog. DH noticed that the snake didn't seem concerned that he was standing close to it in the water garden. (in retrospect it was because it was intent on the frog).
Seemed to me that the frog would have noticed that the snake was only 2 feet away from it. We went back to sitting on the deck, when I heard a strange sound. I knew what that meant. I jumped down to the watergarden and there on the edge was the snake with one whole leg of the frog in its mouth. I know this is nature, but the snakes signed a contract with me that if they were going to eat any of the frogs, they would do it when I wasn't around. I grabbed the snake behind its head with one hand, and its thrashing body with the other. It finally let go of the frog, which hopped away, bleeding. I threw the snake back in the water garden. It was really po'd at me for the rest of the day. I haven't heard the frog since............but I have the feeling the snake will find it and be successful before long.
I felt bad for denying the meal to the snake........but I just can't bare to actually watch some things in nature...........especially when I have invited them to my back yard, and like them all.
I also struggle with nature and it's ways. I have yet to be thrust into a situation requiring me to make a split-second judgement, and either act or not act, but I can definitely see myself doing what you did, although, not with a snake. Glad you did what you did.
Yes--I would have had the same impulse, and I know that nature is predatory and needs to be so to survive. But that doesn't make us feel better about seeing Kermit being some slithery snake's dinner. I love the National Geographic channel but I always have to turn my attention away when the cheetah takes down a gazelle or some other unsuspecting animal.
My adorable little border collie/lab/terrier mix was let out without a leash by my DH when I was on a business trip and he called me horrified to tell me that she had discovered a nest of baby rabbits in a planter and had just gone at them, killing most of them before my husband intervened. We figure she just thought they were squeaky toys, like the ones she plays with. Makes us feel better than to think our little pet is a cold-hearted killer.
It's so hard to accept how life and death are just everyday occurrences out in the wild--even just out in our own back yards.
Wildflower
8-13-12, 2:47am
Nature can be so cruel. :(
CathyA, you were brave to wrangle that snake. I don't think I could have done that...
We are also a part of nature, and what we do is part of nature...
Wildflower
8-13-12, 2:57am
We are also a part of nature, and what we do is part of nature...
That is true, and alot of what we do is not good...
Tussiemussies
8-13-12, 3:04am
Hi Cathy A , so glad you did that. I just hate that part of nature. Give you a lot of credit for picking up that snake. Don't know if I could have been that brave!!!:)
Tussiemussies
8-13-12, 3:06am
Although we are a part of nature we have the potential to change, which always gives me hope!
It is the circle of life, true, but that snake isn't going to starve because you prevented it from eating your frog. The way I see it is, in the environment of the pond, snake trumps frog in that snake would be the boss of the pond. But, that pond lives in your environment, and you are the boss of that, so snake trumps frog and you trump snake. And that IS the circle of life!
I watch these kinds of life and death struggles go on all the time down at the fen at the back of my lawn. Especially as the fen shrinks from this drought, tempers are getting hotter. The fish are being corralled, as it were, into a smaller and smaller space, which the heron love, but the bad ass snapper turtles are constantly fighting now. Everyday there is some epic battle. I've seen at least one killed, and there might have been more I just didn't witness. Circle of life. (not that I would intervene in one of those fights!)
I feel that way when I see my resident Cooper's hawk pick off a sparrow from my bird feeder, but then I remember that being a predator is really hard, and most of them don't live to adulthood. I have seen enough juvenile hawks reaching one foot into a thick hedge full of shrieking sparrows to no avail, or hopelessly chasing a screaming blue jay around a tree trunk to know that it is hard work and the stakes are very high! And, when they do finally get the hang of hunting for a living, they tend to catch the slow, the stupid and the sick, and in that way keep the gene pool of their prey tuned up.
My sympathy is with the snake, they tend to get the short end of the stick, sometimes literally. I was delighted to see a baby garter snake the other day, it was about 4" long, looking like a piece of string with a knot at one end, wriggling across a road as fast as it could, and diving to safety in the undergrowth. Long may it live!
According to a book I am currently reading on anthropology, for most of our existence humans have been prey. Up until recently, we humans were dinner for lions, tigers, bears, etc until we learned that we could rise up and slay animals with weapons. I don't know what I would do in that situation but would probably just watch out of curiosity. I recently watched a hawk pick apart a dove in the backyard. I wish they would eat the squirrels.
Peggy........I mostly agree with your logic, but it seems like animals are hard-wired to keep the balance of things healthy. We humans on the other hand..............
I would never kill a non poisonous snake. When I first water snakes in the water gardens, I moved them to outside the fence. (Yeah......like that's going to stop them). Then I accepted that if you are going to build a special water habitat, you need to accept the water animals that come to it. I'm sure lots goes on that I never see (which is fine with me! haha).
I'm on a water gardening forum. And one thing that drives most of us crazy is when someone builds a little pond and then asks "How the heck can I get rid of all these frogs coming to my watergarden? Can I use chemicals on them? Would that hurt my grass?" ACH!!!!
iris lily
8-13-12, 11:36am
Over the weekend DH discovered a nest of baby rabbits. I was surprised when he said that he couldn't shoot them at that stage. He has no compunction about shooting adult rabbits and squirrels. I was the agent (unintended) of a baby rabbit death last spring when I disturbed its nest. I later found it dead, perfectly preserved, at that absolutely perfect stage of cuteness that they get to.
Nature can be so cruel.
It seems that way to us sometimes, but I think humans are about the only one that assigns that adjective to a natural lifecycle. Maybe that's because we are about the only species capable of actually being cruel intentionally...
Gregg, I've thought about that many times.........what kind of feelings do animals have? what kind of sorrow? what kind of thought process? Do they go just on instinct all the time? Was that cry of the frog in the snake's mouth just a reflex?? I just don't know. I try not to anthropomorphize too much. But I also don't want to be so arrogant to think that we're the only species that feels things on an emotional level. Its just really hard to know...........
Peggy........I mostly agree with your logic, but it seems like animals are hard-wired to keep the balance of things healthy. We humans on the other hand..............
I would never kill a non poisonous snake. When I first water snakes in the water gardens, I moved them to outside the fence. (Yeah......like that's going to stop them). Then I accepted that if you are going to build a special water habitat, you need to accept the water animals that come to it. I'm sure lots goes on that I never see (which is fine with me! haha).
I'm on a water gardening forum. And one thing that drives most of us crazy is when someone builds a little pond and then asks "How the heck can I get rid of all these frogs coming to my watergarden? Can I use chemicals on them? Would that hurt my grass?" ACH!!!!
Why ever would someone want to get rid of a frog? That's kind of the point of water gardening, isn't it? We like the little frogs. Good thing too cause I think we have pretty much cornered the market on Northern Cricket Frogs!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGeDWb7O5wE
I love frogs Peggy, and wish we had more varieties of them. We would if we had a big pond, I'm sure. I'll see if I can post the recording my DS took of the tree frogs outside my bedroom window one night.
Sometimes people on the watergardening forum would write "something near our pond is screaming at night. It sounds like a woman screaming". haha I just love all those sounds. I hate human sounds........but I can tolerate just about any nature sound.
Hmmm....I can't figure out how to play that recording on here. Anyone have an idea how to do that?
The Storyteller
8-13-12, 6:17pm
Over the weekend DH discovered a nest of baby rabbits. I was surprised when he said that he couldn't shoot them at that stage.
Ironically, young is when they happen to be the best tasting and most tender. Most folks who raise them butcher rabbits at 8 weeks old.
I have no issues with any creature eating its natural prey for lunch. It's darned hard being a predator, and many of them don't make it. If I don't want to watch (and I never do), I think it's my responsibility to walk away. Quickly. I had a little teeny bull snake try to strike me in the park the other day -- and by teeny I mean less than the diameter of a pencil, and maybe 8 inches long fully extended. Itty-bitty. I kept trying to push him off the trail so the mountain bikers wouldn't squish him, but he kept trying to strike me instead. It was pretty amusing. Ultimately I found a longer branch and just flipped him off into the creekside scrub. That's as much interfering in nature as I do, and only because of the unfair advantage a 40-pound bike -- not a native species -- has over a tiny thing like that. :)
By the way, we learned that the rattlesnakes have come up in elevation in the past couple of years, probably because of the warmer temps here. It used to be that we were safe from them here at 7000+ feet. Not so this year. There are warnings left and right about rattlesnakes in our open space parks. Too bad, really. I hate having to be that vigilant. Oh well.
CathyA
Off topic, but I'm interested in creating a little pond in my back yard. there is a natural spot for it, between two conifers where there is a bit of an indentation where rain run-off fills up. Any tips? BTW, I have no intention of using chemicals to kill frogs or any other thing... :-/
Gregg, I've thought about that many times.........what kind of feelings do animals have? what kind of sorrow? what kind of thought process? Do they go just on instinct all the time? Was that cry of the frog in the snake's mouth just a reflex?? I just don't know. I try not to anthropomorphize too much. But I also don't want to be so arrogant to think that we're the only species that feels things on an emotional level. Its just really hard to know...........
I completely believe that animals feel a whole range of emotions. My dog exhibits deep sorrow when I have to leave her at home because its too hot to stay in the truck and unabashed joy when I get back home. Almost all animals show survival instinct and you have to believe that translates to fear of some kind in some cases. My comment was really just about cruelty. I don't think the snake was trying to be cruel or that the frog felt it was a victim of cruelty. As far as I know high level mammals are the only ones that will intentionally inflict harm on another living thing for a purpose other than survival.
I completely believe that animals feel a whole range of emotions. My dog exhibits deep sorrow when I have to leave her at home because its too hot to stay in the truck and unabashed joy when I get back home. Almost all animals show survival instinct and you have to believe that translates to fear of some kind in some cases. My comment was really just about cruelty. I don't think the snake was trying to be cruel or that the frog felt it was a victim of cruelty. As far as I know high level mammals are the only ones that will intentionally inflict harm on another living thing for a purpose other than survival.
Except cats. Cats will kill just for the joy of it. I don't know if wild cats do it, but house cats sure will.
Cats may not be quite as high up as orcas or apes or humans, but I think they are still pretty high level mammals. We had one that was the best mouser I've ever seen, but also a master of torture. I think all the mice died of sheer terror rather than injury. I haven't heard of wild cats exhibiting that behavior, but then again they usually don't have a bowl of meow mix waiting if the prey gets away.
catherine..........How far apart are your pine trees and how big are they?
I have to admit that the only water gardens I've had were either above-ground stocktanks or in-ground stocktanks or preforms. I tried to make a bog once, and it just didn't work because I had to line it and the area just wasn't naturally wet enough.
The 2 problems you might have if you try to dig out that area more, is that you might harm the pine trees. Also, you may end up with alot of pine needles in the 'pond'.
What some people do who have wet areas in their yards is to plant bog plants in there. Do a google search for bog plants and see if they are some you would like.
If you want to make a little pond out of the area and your trees aren't too close, you would have to dig it out deeper and line it with a special liner. The only problem with this is that if its a very wet area, you could have ground water seep up and lift the liner.
Is this area wet all year? If so, it sounds like a good place for a little bog. I think bog plants like acidic soil, so being near the pine trees might even help it out. I would probably replace a little of the soil with peat moss.
Have I totally confused you? ;)
Heaven help me, but I will chase off a cat if they're simply torturing something for fun. Some things I just can't turn my back on.
And my husband annually votes me Most Likely To Land In Jail For Beating the Cr## Out Of Someone Abusing An Animal. Puts me over the edge, mentally. I had to make him a solemn promise not to track down and punish the previous owner of our big dog, who still bears the scars of his abuse as a youngster.
Dreaming of being able to have a pond someday.......sigh.
Cats may not be quite as high up as orcas or apes or humans, but I think they are still pretty high level mammals. We had one that was the best mouser I've ever seen, but also a master of torture. I think all the mice died of sheer terror rather than injury. I haven't heard of wild cats exhibiting that behavior, but then again they usually don't have a bowl of meow mix waiting if the prey gets away.
Yes, our old fur person, who died this past spring just shy of 18 was, in his day, quite the hunter. He was especially good at hunting moles, which I encouraged, and often presented us with the 'proof', usually after thoughtfully removing the head. Once he found a nest of baby rabbits and presented us with one each day for several days, some even still alive! This was too much for my daughter so we decided to put a bell on that fellow until the season was over. He was ruthless, but a gentle soul none the less. He was able to spend the last several years of his life in the country on an extended visit with my niece as he absolutely fell in love with her cat and neither one of us wanted to part the two. He is missed.
The Storyteller
8-22-12, 7:21pm
What this thread brings to mind...
893
Because as we all know, meat really comes from grocery stores in nice styrofoam packages wrapped in plastic.
:D
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