politically incorrect: we just don't like the heirloom tomatoes

[Blackdog Lin]

I've always wanted to try an heirloom variety and this turned out to be the year, as I was with DH when he was purchasing the tomato plants in the spring. "Ooh, Brandywines! Honey, we've GOTTA try some heirlooms this year, they're gonna be so much better and tastier and we'll save the seed and....." (I've since learned that there are about one bazillion different varieties of Brandywines, so perhaps we just didn't get a good one for our area.)

Bottom line for us is while the heirloom plants did just as well as the hybrid plants (Goliaths and Jet Setters this year - we're not wedded to any particular tomato variety), with the tomatoes themselves the heirlooms didn't perform NEAR what we've become accustomed to with the hybrids. The Brandywines, while just as tasty (but NOT dramatically more delicious) were more mushy than the hybrids. They pi**ed all over the kitchen island while setting waiting to be canned or eaten. They were too messier with slicing and sandwiching. I had to experiment for two weeks on whether to pick them earlier or later to try to get them to keep well enough to preserve (earlier picking turned out to be better).

We have eaten and preserved about 90% of our hybrid tomatoes; and I think we've only been able to use about 50% of the heirloom tomatoes. They went bad too quickly after picking. Too much wastage for us.

Maybe it's a learning curve - but it's academic, as DH is so annoyed with the results that he'll NEVER let me try any heirloom variety again.

I feel I'm SUPPOSED to support and grow heirloom vegetables.....but practicality rears it's ugly head. Our homegrown hybrids provided us much more in the way of using up and enjoying and preserving than the heirloom variety did.

Opinions? Ideas?

[bae]

Opinions? Ideas?

Step One: Have a mother who lives 5 minutes away who is an insane gardener, a Master Gardener, and who knows all the good gardeners in the area.

Step Two: Ask her what works. There are too many to even keep track of or try in one lifetime, but my Mom is the sort of person who visits seed farms and trades seeds with friends in Outer Elbonia. Trust Mom.

Step Three: If you're really on the ball, bat your eyes and beg her to grow you some :-)

[treehugger]

Well, I don't really understand what so-called political correctness has to do with tomatoes, but I do know there are hundreds (thousands?) of different types of tomatoes, and the reason that people get into growing heirlooms is because of all their different characteristics (that is, they are not homogeneous). So, just because you didn't like the Brandywines you grew, doesn't mean you won't like any one of the hundred other types of heirlooms.

Personally, I think one of the fun things about gardening is trying something new each year, along with old favorites. So, next year, stick with some you know work for you and try another new-to-you variety. Look for one that has the qualities you look for in a tomato (for sauce? for slicing? mild flavor? extra juicy? low juice?). Whatever you want, you will find it if you just do a bit of reading. Enjoy the search.

Kara

[iris lily]

Well, I don't really understand what so-called political correctness has to do with tomatoes...

Kara

Oh I do, well, with "heirloom" anyway. It's about being
"organic" and "natural" and etc etc.

But agreed, the OP could try other varieties. DH used to get a seed catalog that had only tomatoes in it. He has a graduate degree in tomatoes. And yes, the new varieties are firmer, developed that way for shipping.

But the OP doesn't have to experiment any longer if she already has modern hybrids that she likes. I hope that we are respectful of a diversity of tomato opinions here.>8):laff::laff::laff:

[Tiam]

I've always wanted to try an heirloom variety and this turned out to be the year, as I was with DH when he was purchasing the tomato plants in the spring. "Ooh, Brandywines! Honey, we've GOTTA try some heirlooms this year, they're gonna be so much better and tastier and we'll save the seed and....." (I've since learned that there are about one bazillion different varieties of Brandywines, so perhaps we just didn't get a good one for our area.)

Bottom line for us is while the heirloom plants did just as well as the hybrid plants (Goliaths and Jet Setters this year - we're not wedded to any particular tomato variety), with the tomatoes themselves the heirlooms didn't perform NEAR what we've become accustomed to with the hybrids. The Brandywines, while just as tasty (but NOT dramatically more delicious) were more mushy than the hybrids. They pi**ed all over the kitchen island while setting waiting to be canned or eaten. They were too messier with slicing and sandwiching. I had to experiment for two weeks on whether to pick them earlier or later to try to get them to keep well enough to preserve (earlier picking turned out to be better).

We have eaten and preserved about 90% of our hybrid tomatoes; and I think we've only been able to use about 50% of the heirloom tomatoes. They went bad too quickly after picking. Too much wastage for us.

Maybe it's a learning curve - but it's academic, as DH is so annoyed with the results that he'll NEVER let me try any heirloom variety again.

I feel I'm SUPPOSED to support and grow heirloom vegetables.....but practicality rears it's ugly head. Our homegrown hybrids provided us much more in the way of using up and enjoying and preserving than the heirloom variety did.

Opinions? Ideas?

I've heard Brandywines are "fussy"?

This hasn't been a good year for me for tomatoes. Low yields and low flavor. I went for early, determinates and have been disappointed. I say, go with what you like. But you can experiment too. There are lots of heirlooms.

[flowerseverywhere]

Bae bought up a very important consideration. It takes years of experimentation, seed saving and growing to figure out what works for you and your area. Pictures of tomatoes in catalogs don't take into account your own soil conditions and climate. and if you go to any big box store, the tomatoes could have been grown in Georgia to sell in NH. This year has been particularly tricky with the drought overtaking much of the country.

I grow a combo of hybrids and heirlooms. I have found that Cherokee purple are by and far the best suited for my little microclimate. I do have a batch of brandywines that are heavenly this year.

but there are no tomato police, do what is best for you.

[CathyA]

LOL Blackdog Lin! I feel the same way.
I grew several kinds of heirlooms from seed, along with a couple hybrids one year. The bunnies ate all the heirlooms. I had a few back-up plants and put them out.........but the bugs liked them the best.
And for some reason, my brain doesn't like eating purple tomatoes.
But............I grow Rutgers, which is very dependable and is an heirloom. Have you tried that variety? The tomatoes aren't huge, but big enough. They freeze well too. Give those a try.

[Gregg]

Along the lines of what bae said, you could talk to people at a farmer's market to see what they grow. Those are obviously people that depend on a high yield of good quality fruit. Also, any old farmer will tell you that you need to plant a few varities so you always have a back up plan in case one fails. Maybe this just wasn't a good year for brandywines in KS, but some other variety could have gone gangbusters. And there is nothing wrong with growing hybrids. I love a thick slab of beefsteak tomato on my burger!



The bunnies ate all the heirlooms. I had a few back-up plants and put them out.........but the bugs liked them the best.

The bunnies and bug might be trying to tell you something...

[CathyA]

LOL Gregg........that's a possibility!

[Blackdog Lin]

What great responses and I thank y'all.

bae: love your tomato method. I shall work on finding a mother or mother-in-law master gardener to help with dilemma. :) I actually do have a master gardener "mentor" (79-yr. old truck driver at the office that I am able to chat with and get gardening advice for about 4 minutes every day during season - all we have time for) - but he's a canny one and obviously understands about yields in our area and only recommends the best hybrids to me (he's the reason we grow Goliath tomatoes).
Iris Lily and CathyA: thanks for understanding about the "political uncorrectness". It's all we see these days, gotta be green and sustainable and grow heirloom varieties. Can't it be enough that I grow a home garden? Must I also forgo hybrids and chemicals and whatnot? Must I forego sleep to spend 4 hours a day picking bugs off the garden plants? Some years here in SE KS, if it wasn't for Sevin we wouldn't HAVE any garden. We try to do it without, many years it works (we have been Sevin-less this year), but some years if you don't apply something for bugs, you have no garden. It's the same concept as doing heirloom varieties (well, as it seems to me right now, with my disappointment with this years heirloom tomato). Politically incorrect, gardening-wise.
CathyA: I laughed about your brain not liking purple tomatoes. In our area many people grow yellow and orange varieties, and I just can't enjoy them! My mouth may say they're delectible, but my eyes and brain say "this is NOT a ripe tomato". And so they're just not as tasty as a good red one, are they?

[razz]

I have tried various tomatoes over the years including heritage and hybrid. They all got blight! This year I paid $5.85 for 11 seeds of Roma tomatoes that are highly resistant to blight, developed in N. C, I believe, and they have delivered both bountifully, tastefully and blight-free. I will buy more next year!
Life is an experiment so play in the garden with variety of different plants and techniques.

[flowerseverywhere]

In our area many people grow yellow and orange varieties, and I just can't enjoy them! My mouth may say they're delectible, but my eyes and brain say "this is NOT a ripe tomato". And so they're just not as tasty as a good red one, are they?

one year I grew black cherry tomatoes. They were yummy but the friends I give to just didn't like eating them. I have grown orange tomatoes that were practically flourescent, as well as bright yellow. A salad looks so wonderful with all the colors. but wouldn't life be dull if we all had the same tastes.

It is funny about the whole "political correct" thing. Hybrids would never have been developed if there was no need for them. Reminds me when everyone was in an uproar about the olympic atheletes wearing outfits made in china. Hello. I challenge people to find clothes made in the US in their own closets. Sometimes we fuss about the silliest things.

[Gregg]

It is interesting that people sometimes associate hybrid with GMO or some other politically undesirable trait. Hybrids occur naturally as well as in a lab. Plant two heirloom tomatoes next to each other. If the pollen from one hits the flower of the other and a fruit forms you have a hybrid. If it happens to get the most successful traits of both parents for its specific environment (stronger in the wind, more leaf area to catch sun, less leaf area for lower water requirements, tastier to birds, etc.) then the new variety just might thrive. Of course there are places where talk of evolution, even beyond tomatoes, isn't politically correct...

[Amaranth]

Razz, would you post info about where to get those roma seeds? We are looking for some that have all those attributes.

Lots of our new gardeners have that same sort of question about hybrids vs heirlooms. I encourage them to start out with about 80% different hybrids and 20% different heirlooms. Lots of times the heirlooms have better flavor than the hybrids, but it seems like it's better to have enough/100s of tomatoes even if they are only a 7-8 on a 1-10 taste scale rather than only a few 10/taste scale tomatoes if something goes wrong with diseases in the area. But even their hybrids are going to taste better than the grocery store hybrids because they can pick them ripe.

Also for canning look for some of the italian plum tomatoes of various sorts, rutgers, improved rutgers, campbells and heinz varieties. Plus some of those are bred to be specifically good for pasta sauce, tomato soup, or ketchup. Look also for other varieties bred by Rutgers University as they bred specific lines for specific commercial needs.

Brandywine is one that usually is best picked and eaten fresh within 24 hours. I haven't ever canned it, though I have frozen a few. If I canned it, I'd probably try using it in tomato juice as a first experiment.

There are legitimate differences of opinion though on hybrid vs heirloom. If you save seeds from hybrid tomatoes, and replant the next year, you can wind up with very different tomatoes including things that don't taste very good or have low productivity. You can keep saving seeds from generations of the original hybrid though that are most similar to the hybrid. Eventually you will have an open pollinated tomato that is very close to the charateristics of the hybrid. The advantage of heirlooms is that you will get plants very similar to what you had before and it's more sustainable for the gardener.

Some of the most intense debates on this issue center around which seeds should be used when working with groups of impoverished people. Do you use hybrids which they will have trouble affording when the aid group is gone, but increase the odds of high yields? Or do you use heirloom seeds which they can save, but will have a steeper learning curve as the area figures out which heirlooms do well in the area? My suggestion is to do both.

[razz]

Razz, would you post info about where to get those roma seeds? We are looking for some that have all those attributes.
Despite the drought, the A365 Plum regal are producing good fruit, meaty and tasty. The only thing that I don't find great is the solid core from the stem but that is easy to cut out.
www.damseeds.ca/

http://www.damseeds.ca/productcart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=3007

[CathyA]

I just can't believe my tomato production this year. Who would have thought in an "exceptional" drought..........
My Rutger plants are about 7' tall! I grew the usual Romas and tried some San Marzano paste tomatoes.
The Romas always do pretty well, but they make all their tomatoes down by the ground and they're hard to pick.
Really Blackdog Lin........try Rutgers. They're an old reliable standard. I've never had problems with them and they are "heirloom".....and very red!

[Blackdog Lin]

Cathy: us too! This "exceptional" drought and we've had one of our best garden years ever. Weird. Last year we got the intense heat and drought so early, and so prolonged, that the entire garden just looked at us and basically said "you've GOT to be kidding", even with our watering efforts. Everything chuckled weakly at our hopes and expectations, then dried up and died.

This year all we've had to do is twice-a-week watering, and the tomatoes (and okra) are thriving. We DID bring in 3 loads of composted manure-pasture dirt to build up the garden this spring (it was sinking); I can only think that that is the difference this year.

I have made a large note to look for Rutger tomatoes next year. We buy from 2-3 area nurseries (no big-box stores in our area, and we shy away from Wal-Mart and the like garden plants). So I THINK we're getting what works in our area, from local knowledgable growers.....but who knows? We've never been successful with trying to grow from seed - we buy nursery plants every year, and have to choose our varieties from what they have available.

[Amaranth]

Blackdog Lin, Our local nurseries will start plants for people. Usually if you get something special you need to order a whole flat or special order a flat with half of one variety and half of another. There is also an improved rutgers which may or may not be better for your purposes.

Razz, thank you for the link. They look very prolific.

[awakenedsoul]

This is a funny thread. This is the first year I've had success with my tomatoes. I planted Early Girls and a few heirlooms. Some critter ate most of the green zebras, but the others all did beautifully. I think the composted manure makes a big difference. I'm going add more to my soil in the fall. I plant hollyhocks and herbs in my vegetable garden, and it seems to take care of the bugs. I plant sunflowers on the perimeter, too. Our local nursery always has a nice selection of tomatoes that do well in this area. I have to get mine in the ground right after Easter, too. If I plant too late, they don't make it. Too bad some people make gardening political. To me it's very personal, and an art form. I think it's great that you had a successful harvest.

[CathyA]

Amaranth.........does an "improved Rutgers" mean its no longer an heirloom/standard? I hope they just leave it alone. Its very hardy for an heirloom, and very dependable just the way it was.
As they say........."if it ain't broke, don't fix it". haha

[razz]

Well, bad news..... the tomatoes grown from expensive seed are starting rot at the ends and it is looking a lot like late blight on the inside while the outside skin does not break down. I watered these plants and babied them so while it may be drought damage, I don't honestly believe that. Oh shoot, I had such high hopes too.
Cancel my endorsement of these tomatoes please.