View Full Version : Fed Up
Fed Up
I am well and truly fed up. I am fed up with Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, and most of the rest of the world too. I am especially fed up with candidates, PACs, SuperPacs, and The Election in general. I'm fed up with NPR and the whole culture of everybody's a victim. *Time for a news fast. *The world will just have to get along without my concern.
Time for reading good books, quilting, cooking, and keeping the roses watered and me cool. *Time to plan our fall foliage trip to Maine.
I love NPR but am glad to have my opinion validated that their victim culture is pervasive.
The whole trick is being able to walk away when you need to - or picking what you expose yourself to in the first place. And we're the ones that control that.
I listen to Car Talk every week and there may be a victim or two, but I'd hardly call it pervasive :-)
flowerseverywhere
8-21-12, 10:27pm
florence I am with you. It seems like the media is waiting to pounce on every misspoken word, everyone wants to be the one that discovers someone's flaws.This election is not about what you stand for, but what can you dig up on the other candidate that you can criticize.
It really sickens me. The violence and hate that is escalating seems to know no bounds.
the victim mentality is something I have noticed but not really figured out what is going on. I think it is especially hard for me because I grew up in a two bedroom house with five kids, and abusive alcoholic parents. With little help I graduated from nursing school and raised two kids without violence or alcohol in the house.
Maybe because I never thought I was a victim.
I love NPR but am glad to have my opinion validated that their victim culture is pervasive.
I'd be interested in hearing more about this perspective... it's new to me.
I'd be interested in hearing more about this perspective... it's new to me.
I haven't noticed that either.
I'm fed up with the summer rush hour traffic here....
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-TBYNz6twBJI/UDRR5r-bGrI/AAAAAAAAGKk/jqLuMC3SJAA/s640/Awesomized.jpg
iris lily
8-21-12, 11:35pm
The whole trick is being able to walk away when you need to - or picking what you expose yourself to in the first place. And we're the ones that control that.
I listen to Car Talk every week and there may be a victim or two, but I'd hardly call it pervasive :-)
Ok, not pervasive, but it's a theme.
But since I've only listened to Wait Wait Don't Tell Me and the aforementioned Car Talk guys recently, I can't think of any examples from last Saturday. Sometimes they do get on a roll, though, especially the local station. The local guy interviews many local do-gooder organizations and those tend to be in the business of spreading the word about the victims they serve.
IL, what do you define as "victim"? And... Car Talk is going off the air soon! Waaahhhhh! It's absolutely my fav.
Oh my goodnesss, Bae, that is so tragic what you have to suffer through under those conditions.:D
I don’t know that we’re in a particularly wearisome period as far as the news is concerned. Other eras have had their share of even worse times, although I suspect it was easier to ignore the Zimmerman Telegraph or the Suez Crisis when media was less ubiquitous.
I do agree about the general smug obnoxiousness of NPR, at least for anyone who doesn’t buy into their premise that most of life needs to be viewed through the race, class and gender perspectives of well-to-do liberal arts majors. They really lost me several years ago when they started covering military funerals with pornographic relish. That week-long victory lap they took after the 2008 election didn’t set well with me either. I do like “a Way with Words”, and what’s left of their classical music programming, though.
humm...I always though covering military funerals was a way for the whole nation to mourn with the families these terrible losses, not to mention keep reminding us that these horrible deaths were actually going on while the nation traveled and dined out and went to the mall.
But, I guess it's interesting to see other perspectives.
ApatheticNoMore
8-22-12, 11:36am
at least for anyone who doesn’t buy into their premise that most of life needs to be viewed through the race, class and gender perspectives of well-to-do liberal arts majors
Well to do liberal art majors are like the ultimate in priviledge, just as rather be them as the 1%, but also quite an exception to the rule if the only thing you have on your resume is a liberal arts major I think. ;)
Are there liberal arts majors still these days, what with the high cost of college, and the poor job market for new graduates?
flowerseverywhere
8-22-12, 12:17pm
Are there liberal arts majors still these days, what with the high cost of college, and the poor job market for new graduates?
Yes, I know quite a few. I work on call in the school system and a lot of the young people I run into that are also working on call are in school. They will graduate with tens of thousands in school loans and little to no job prospect. I know two that are going to school online, one for counseling and taking on debt to do so. Even if you get a degree in education, it is very hard to break in as schools all over the country have had massive layoffs.
One day at a picnic one of these young people's parents actually said "with a degree in English you can do anything". In my opinion anything will consist of asking if they want fries with their burger these days. I just cannot imagine taking on debt for anything that does not prepare you for a specific career field.
and student loan debt is not forgivable, many seniors have their social security wages garnished for their own or a child or grandchild they co-signed for. A very sad situation indeed.
We are all liberal arts majors, some are just more methodical.
Are there liberal arts majors still these days, what with the high cost of college, and the poor job market for new graduates?
They seemed to be well represented in the Occupy-Whatever Movement, which may help to explain its lack of staying power.
We are all liberal arts majors, some are just more methodical.
That is an excellent point.
Well to do liberal art majors are like the ultimate in priviledge, just as rather be them as the 1%, but also quite an exception to the rule if the only thing you have on your resume is a liberal arts major I think. ;)
I don't disagree. You could argue that an unearned sense of moral and intellectual superiority is the ultimate luxury item.
When I went to the web site of my local NPR station to see who the locals have recently interviewed, here was the lead news story on their site:
Pew: Middle class poorer, earning less and shrinking
By Kelsey Proud
The middle class. An enigma of socioeconomic standing often used as a barometer of the United States as a whole. Perhaps you identify with the term 'middle class,' or perhaps you don't, but the newest data from Pew Social & Demographic Trends is something to see. Check it out, with reporting from NPR's The Two-Way, via the link.
Beating that class warfare theme is a key occupation at NPR. Pew studies are good, I like them, but is it just a random event that when I look at their site their #1 story is from victimland? No.
I can criticize them all I like because I'm an annual contributor and a regular listener. Plus, just last week I wrote a big check to go toward their building fund.
happystuff
8-22-12, 4:10pm
Interesting thread. If I really stop and think about it, I admit that - at various times - I could probably be put into several different "mentally" groups myself - depending on many variables, of course. The group I tend be encountering/seeing more and more often, however, is the "holier than thou" mentality. Among immediate acquaintences, it often comes out embarrassing and simply sad.
awakenedsoul
8-22-12, 4:16pm
I'm focusing on my daily tasks, too. Fixing everything from jewelry, to home appliances, to the 20 year old toilet. I no longer listen to the radio or watch television. It's a relief. I scan the news on the Internet, so I know what's going on in the world. Am spending more time growing food, doing easy yoga, walking, bike riding, knitting, and reading library books.
I'd rather be influenced by Mother Nature and my pets than the media...
When I went to the web site of my local NPR station to see who the locals have recently interviewed, here was the lead news story on their site:
Pew: Middle class poorer, earning less and shrinking
By Kelsey Proud
The middle class. An enigma of socioeconomic standing often used as a barometer of the United States as a whole. Perhaps you identify with the term 'middle class,' or perhaps you don't, but the newest data from Pew Social & Demographic Trends is something to see. Check it out, with reporting from NPR's The Two-Way, via the link.
Beating that class warfare theme is a key occupation at NPR. Pew studies are good, I like them, but is it just a random event that when I look at their site their #1 story is from victimland? No.
I can criticize them all I like because I'm an annual contributor and a regular listener. Plus, just last week I wrote a big check to go toward their building fund.
What would they do for stories? It seems that in most situations someone has the shorter end of the stick.
Competitive sports - definitely out. Seems like you can't hear about a game without having to hear about somebody losing (excepting ties, but they are pretty rare).
flowerseverywhere
8-22-12, 5:58pm
You know creaker, it isn't so much that someone is getting the short end of the stick but a lack of solutions except for government intervention.
We all want a smaller government but we want someone elses pie to get smaller, not ours.
We all want a smaller government but we want someone elses pie to get smaller, not ours.
Actually, I'd prefer that everyones pie get larger.
When I went to the web site of my local NPR station to see who the locals have recently interviewed, here was the lead news story on their site:
Pew: Middle class poorer, earning less and shrinking
By Kelsey Proud
The middle class. An enigma of socioeconomic standing often used as a barometer of the United States as a whole. Perhaps you identify with the term 'middle class,' or perhaps you don't, but the newest data from Pew Social & Demographic Trends is something to see. Check it out, with reporting from NPR's The Two-Way, via the link.
Beating that class warfare theme is a key occupation at NPR. Pew studies are good, I like them, but is it just a random event that when I look at their site their #1 story is from victimland? No.
I am not quite seeing how reporting data showing that the traditional middle class is making less money can be construed as "class warfare" unless you're gunning for conflict. It's just data, and it's mildly interesting to anyone who considers themselves "middle class" like myself --- and I'm no victim, thanks. Why are we earning less? Especially since many of us are working more? Is it necessary and just, or is there something I should be trying to change? Etc etc. I'd be curious to read such a story, and since I'm NPR's target audience, I am not seeing the issue here unless someone is looking for an argument. Someone in the top earning echelons would say "victim story" and someone who's poor would say, "what about us? we hurt even more!"
I no longer even turn on NPR most days, and probably won't until the election is over (let alone Fox or Comedy Central after 9pm). I'm so weary of the whole divisive mess I could puke.
Like awakenedsoul, I'm concentrating on my own life, building community, learning all I can about self-sufficiency, saving money, and trying to keep clear of everyone firing salvos from his own little extremist political corner --- either corner.
The whole election cycle is way way too long. Too many good people in both parties are hung out to dry for some misspoken comment. Personally I would tire very quickly of always having a microphone stuck in my face wanting a comment on this and that.
Please send me my ballot now please!
When I went to the web site of my local NPR station to see who the locals have recently interviewed, here was the lead news story on their site:
Pew: Middle class poorer, earning less and shrinking
By Kelsey Proud
The middle class. An enigma of socioeconomic standing often used as a barometer of the United States as a whole. Perhaps you identify with the term 'middle class,' or perhaps you don't, but the newest data from Pew Social & Demographic Trends is something to see. Check it out, with reporting from NPR's The Two-Way, via the link.
Beating that class warfare theme is a key occupation at NPR. Pew studies are good, I like them, but is it just a random event that when I look at their site their #1 story is from victimland? No.
I can criticize them all I like because I'm an annual contributor and a regular listener. Plus, just last week I wrote a big check to go toward their building fund.
I've never understood the "class warfare" phrase either. What exactly does it mean?
As someone who is struggling to maintain any semblance of middle class life, I appreciate having the data behind my experience. I don't consider this 'victimland', it's my life. I am sad & frequently frustrated by it, and often feel at the mercy of patterns I cannot control. Is this 'victimland'?
What is the point of using that kind of language, anyway? I ask this in all seriousness. The language feels baiting and mean. I doubt you, IL, mean it thusly, as I don't conceive of you as being mean at all! My question remains, for anyone who wishes to reply, of course.
I am not quite seeing how reporting data showing that the traditional middle class is making less money can be construed as "class warfare" unless you're gunning for conflict. It's just data, and it's mildly interesting to anyone who considers themselves "middle class" like myself --- and I'm no victim, thanks. Why are we earning less? Especially since many of us are working more? Is it necessary and just, or is there something I should be trying to change? Etc etc. I'd be curious to read such a story, and since I'm NPR's target audience, I am not seeing the issue here unless someone is looking for an argument. Someone in the top earning echelons would say "victim story" and someone who's poor would say, "what about us? we hurt even more!"
I no longer even turn on NPR most days, and probably won't until the election is over (let alone Fox or Comedy Central after 9pm). I'm so weary of the whole divisive mess I could puke.
Like awakenedsoul, I'm concentrating on my own life, building community, learning all I can about self-sufficiency, saving money, and trying to keep clear of everyone firing salvos from his own little extremist political corner --- either corner.
The one thing I do fault NPR on is having a topic like a Pew study - and then spending 30 seconds going over the data in the study, and the next 59 and a half minutes on various guests opinions on the data in the study. I'd rather hear more about the study and arrive at my own opinions.
The whole election cycle is way way too long. Too many good people in both parties are hung out to dry for some misspoken comment. Personally I would tire very quickly of always having a microphone stuck in my face wanting a comment on this and that.
Please send me my ballot now please!
+1!! I am always jealous of the Canadians, who announce an election, and have 6 weeks to make their case.
The whole election cycle is way way too long. Too many good people in both parties are hung out to dry for some misspoken comment. Personally I would tire very quickly of always having a microphone stuck in my face wanting a comment on this and that.
Please send me my ballot now please!
I don't think Obama was sworn in yet when this election cycle started.
I've never understood the "class warfare" phrase either. What exactly does it mean?
As someone who is struggling to maintain any semblance of middle class life, I appreciate having the data behind my experience. I don't consider this 'victimland', it's my life. I am sad & frequently frustrated by it, and often feel at the mercy of patterns I cannot control. Is this 'victimland'?
What is the point of using that kind of language, anyway?
I think the language and the idea of class warfare, and the associated victim class, is something promoted by several groups. It's nothing exclusive to NPR. If your desire is to grow the government, to expand its scope in any variety of ways, then this could be a good way to do it. If we are struggling or suffering and someone comes along and tells us its not our fault, its beyond our control, we didn't do anything wrong and then says they know how to help that is a pretty powerful statement. It is also one that will attract a whole lot of votes in an election cycle. Over time a group that promotes that idea will gain power and as they follow through with their promises to help the victims that elected them dependency will increase dramatically. Whether there was a victim class to begin with is an interesting debate, but there is certainly a dependent class now. The illusion has become real.
In an election it is, of course, always the other guys fault no matter who that is or what your talking about. As someone with a generally conservative POV when it comes to government it would be easy for me to point a finger at Mr. Obama and crew and blame them for this increased dependency, but that would be wrong. It has been steadily increasing during the last 50+ years I've been alive and maybe longer than that. It's been a long, slow slide through at least 10 presidents (5 Democrats & 5 Republicans). It is the kind of thing that always takes me back to that John Adams quote:
The nature of the encroachment upon American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer; it eats faster and faster every hour. The revenue creates pensioners, and the pensioners urge for more revenue. The people grow less steady, spirited and virtuous, the seekers more numerous and more corrupt, and every day increases the circles of their dependents and expectants, until virtue, integrity, public spirit, simplicity and frugality become the objects of ridicule and scorn, and vanity, luxury, foppery, selfishness, meanness, and downright venality swallow up the whole of society. John Adams
I feel like we're being swallowed up. There are all kinds of theories trying to figure out who is responsible and what their intent is, but does it even matter in the end? As long as we're all arguing about whose fault it is we won't be trying to change things. Right now, IMO, neither party is offering anything except another serving of the same old gruel. The machines are so big I'm personally at a loss as to how to initiate change, but then again it rarely gets started with guys like me. Revolution will come eventually, it always does. I'm just curious to see what form it will take.
flowerseverywhere
8-23-12, 10:29am
Actually, I'd prefer that everyones pie get larger.
How can this be achieved? I am one of the lucky ones whose piece of the pie has been pretty stable, but I know a lot of people whose piece has gotten much smaller.
And every day we read about some people who have gotten a gigantic piece of the pie (ceo and wall street bonuses for example.)
Thanks, Gregg. I appreciate hearing your thinking. What makes you think that government helping people turns into dependency? That's certainly not been my experience at all in my 3+ decades of working in social services. Also, what & who comprises the 'victim class'? This, and the class warfare term, is language so foreign to me!
In my community, when a family needs help, for instance in affordable housing, enough food, decent medical care, I have worked & volunteered for both ad hoc neighbor groups & formal non-profit & government services designed to assist those in need. In housing, I've worked for groups that build permanently affordable homes, so families can stay in their communities. This creates opportunities that are the exact opposite of dependency; it helps people with self-suffiency. Having stable & affordable housing - a basic need and human right - means they can hold a job, their kids can stay in school, they can cook decent meals, and feel safe. In every agency or government department I have worked in, the goal has been self-suffiency. I have seen countless families and individuals achieve that goal... though at this point, I fear it may be faltering. The wealth disparities in the US are driving many formerly self-sufficient people into despair and needing assistance.
The schism in this country between economic classes is intensifying, and wealth is being concentrated at the top. In my city & in my immediate neighborhood, I see no benefits to regular working people by this reality - I don't see the so-called job creators creating jobs, and the trickle down theory is not apparent. I personally despair of ever having a solid retirement, of being able to pay off my student loans, of holding a decent and stable job with a middle class wage & health benefits. I am at the point where I can see myself needing help from social services & government to make ends meet. It shocks and frightens me. This is what so-called class warfare looks like to me... and I have a MA. Some of my neighbors have high school educations, and their situation is bleak.
I certainly do not believe that anyone wakes up in the morning and lays out plans to make others miserable, no matter what their politics. I do believe that the impacts, as distinct from the intent, of our countries policies has been this unfortunate and devastating concentration of wealth at the top, and the shredding of the middle class that my parents experienced. Both of my parents, now 85, came from rural America, and made it into the middle class due directly to government subsidies. These were the GI Bill & low-cost housing loans. If not for those, my family would still be working class. Due to the education they received and the affordable housing they bought - thanks to that federal government assistance - they slowly built a middle class life for us. I will never achieve what they did. A GI Bill would have helped me & my siblings immensely, and affordable housing loans too. My dad supported a family of 5 on one income, including buying a house & two cars. That will never happen again for the majority of Americans.
Today, they have savings, a retirement income, very good long term care & medical insurance, and social security. They therefore have been able to provide the downpayment to all 3 of their children for our homes. Otherwise, we would not have had the savings to buy. They still help us all out when we have extraordinary bills, because none of us have robust savings except the one who did not have children. Despite advanced degrees and a lifetime of working, none of the three of us children will retire with anywhere close to what my parents have.
I have seen how government & the private, not-for-profit sector can benefit regular people. What I see now is government benefitting the super wealthy, and that this is not benefitting the rest of us. And, I am old fashioned enough to still believe that the government is us, so I continue to support citizen involvement in elections & in holding electeds accountable for their performance. I believe we can wrest our federal government away from corporate influence, and of course local government is much easier to impact..
I feel as if the revolution is happening, and it is one of re-framing what community is, how we are interdependent, how we are responsible for each other's welfare, and how we can live together with enough for everyone - creating a world that works for all. The growing network of those who call themselves urban homesteaders/farmers, and are raising food in the city, the Transition Town movement, people who have developed alternative currencies & are making ends meet by barter & work trade, those who find themselves unemployed or partially employed (like me) jumping into working as volunteers in their neighborhood - I have organized a Community Kitchen - are changing the model of everyone fends for themselves, builds their little suburban castle, pulls up the metaphorical drawbridge, and no one else matters. I am looking forward to the re-shaping of American life to be more collaborative, cooperative, community-based, and equal. Being 57, I hope I live long enough to see much of this transition - but I fear it will not come easily. I am doing what I can to contribute to that future.
Powerful post, redfox.
"Actually, there’s been class warfare going on for the last 20 years, and my class has won. We’re the ones that have gotten our tax rates reduced dramatically.
If you look at the 400 highest taxpayers in the United States in 1992, the first year for figures, they averaged about $40 million of [income] per person. In the most recent year, they were $227 million per person — five for one. During that period, their taxes went down from 29 percent to 21 percent of income. So, if there’s class warfare, the rich class has won." --Warren Buffett, CNBC, September 2011
I think you hit dead center on where a big part of the solution needs to come from redfox....community. I don't think government support is a bad thing in and of itself. I'm a very big supporter of having a safety net and go so far as believing it is a moral obligation in a privileged society. The problem is that sometimes people get caught in that net and can't get out. It seems like small shades of gray to go from helping someone to supporting someone to having someone depend on you. I'd just like to see us doing all we can to teach people to fish while we are feeding them fish, but it seems like there are a lot of areas where we, as a society, are just giving handouts without really doing anything to help people get into a more positive situation. I see that as a failure.
Bless you for the work you are doing to build community. And I mean that in the most sincere way. That is a very big part of how our society came to be as great as it is and, I agree with you here, how it will survive. Sidestepping the class war mine for a minute, the wealthiest folks around don't have a whole lot that we can't all have if we work together. Sure, money buys you more options and lets you feel a little more secure about your future, but that's nothing that most of us can't have even without great wealth. I beat the opportunity drum once in a while, but I really do believe that is where our true wealth lies. We should help people who need help, but we should also be doing everything we can to see that everyone has a chance to realize their potential. The best way to close the income gap is to bring the bottom up. Redistribution isn't necessary because wealth isn't a zero sum game. We can create wealth, in the form of opportunity, for every socio-economic class. Your parents are perfect examples. They got help with education and housing to get started. We may never go back to the Leave It To Beaver life that I grew up in, but we can do a lot to help people get started on self-sufficient paths. Like you, I know how to do that in a relatively small community. How do we accomplish it on a larger scale?
Hey youse guys, what's with the liberal arts major bashing? I beat up on my parents a lot, but I'll give them this - they sent me to school for four years. I kept changing my major, but I loved the arts and couldn't decide what I wanted to do for a living. My parents told me that you can't make money doing anything artsy. But I wasn't interested in other stuff, so I just kept taking courses I was interested in. Started as a piano performance major, then switched to dance, theater, English lit, visual art. I took Latin and loved it, though my friends rolled their eyes and said, "Isn't that - oh watchamacall it - a worthless language?" (It's a dead language, not worthless, but I figured if you have to explain it - sigh) I took rhetoric and yoga and psychology and even (drum roll please) a physics course, and realized I enjoyed the sciences too! I had 300-plus credits, but none were all in the same discipline. My adviser looked at me and said, "Want to get out of here? Let's call it Liberal Studies." So twenty years later I did - got my undergrad degree in 2006. I loved school, and I still miss it!
Anyway, I don't think you can really extrapolate my politics from what I studied in school. You can be a liberal arts major and not be liberal in the political sense. Let's not conflate these things, okay?
BTW - I hate NPR too! But mostly because I think it's bad radio. Droning, boring delivery, segments that go on way too long, intros that repeat the first thing you hear in the cut, announcers who have no clue how to engage as personalities, etc. etc. They've got a lot of great content, they just need to learn how to package it in a more engaging, sparkly way. Their whole approach is so hipster college radio. Gawd it gets old...
Well to do liberal art majors are like the ultimate in priviledge, just as rather be them as the 1%, but also quite an exception to the rule if the only thing you have on your resume is a liberal arts major I think. ;)
Are there liberal arts majors still these days, what with the high cost of college, and the poor job market for new graduates?
Well I also have a usesless BS degree - in Criminal Justice. Like the liberal arts majors, we can't get jobs, but we do get guns :-)! I wised up and got an environmental engineering degree later and it was a tad more useful. Actually together (and including my armed forces training and education) they were most useful for my job.
I actually know quite a few people (kids of my friends) who are liberal arts majors. Partly because so many of the other, more lucrative major programs like nursing and engineering, are completely full up with no hope of them ever getting in. Part of that is due to more people changing majors but much of it is due to budget cuts which greatly reduce the number of available classes. So, rather than going into a trade or some kind of on-the-job-training, many kids still want to go to college even if they can't get the major they want. To me, as a frugalista, I'd choose to wait or go in another direction rather than pay for college (or worse, get a student loan) for a liberal arts degree UNLESS it was purely for the love of education rather than to find a good job. If I was looking for good job security in the future, I'd forgo college and study a trade.
ApatheticNoMore
8-23-12, 12:37pm
I think if you are able to make good money ("well to do" meaning I figure at least well into the middle class) using purely what you learned as a liberal arts major you basically "won the life lottery" as it were, and such people should at least recognize it as such, know how unusually fortunate they are.
That said I think ideas like Iris Lilly have floated of young people getting a bachelors in whatever (whatever interests) and then supplementing it with technical training probably can work well (if one can stand that much school). I think liberal arts education is valuable but not very likely by itself to make one "well to do". So sure it's ok for a young person to get a liberal arts degree (preferably at a state school so it comes with minimal debt), but they should also have a career plan.
Hey youse guys, what's with the liberal arts major bashing? I beat up on my parents a lot, but I'll give them this - they sent me to school for four years. I kept changing my major, but I loved the arts and couldn't decide what I wanted to do for a living. My parents told me that you can't make money doing anything artsy. But I wasn't interested in other stuff, so I just kept taking courses I was interested in. Started as a piano performance major, then switched to dance, theater, English lit, visual art. I took Latin and loved it, though my friends rolled their eyes and said, "Isn't that - oh watchamacall it - a worthless language?" (It's a dead language, not worthless, but I figured if you have to explain it - sigh) I took rhetoric and yoga and psychology and even (drum roll please) a physics course, and realized I enjoyed the sciences too! I had 300-plus credits, but none were all in the same discipline. My adviser looked at me and said, "Want to get out of here? Let's call it Liberal Studies." So twenty years later I did - got my undergrad degree in 2006. I loved school, and I still miss it!
Anyway, I don't think you can really extrapolate my politics from what I studied in school. You can be a liberal arts major and not be liberal in the political sense. Let's not conflate these things, okay?
BTW - I hate NPR too! But mostly because I think it's bad radio. Droning, boring delivery, segments that go on way too long, intros that repeat the first thing you hear in the cut, announcers who have no clue how to engage as personalities, etc. etc. They've got a lot of great content, they just need to learn how to package it in a more engaging, sparkly way. Their whole approach is so hipster college radio. Gawd it gets old...
Good points Kitten but I don't think Iris Lily meant that a liberal arts degree wasn't educationally valuable - just that it isn't valuable when you need a job after college. I think she meant that for many people (myself included) we didn't have our parents or anyone else to support us or pay for our education while we were in college, let alone once we graduated, and so we had to chose majors where we would actually be able to become employed. We could not afford to be the "Well to do liberal arts majors" who could spend years in school with others to pay for it - and support us financially. Of course I had my dear Uncle Sam to help pay for my college education - something I will be forever grateful for!
Of course I had my dear Uncle Sam to help pay for my college education - something I will be forever grateful for!
Uncle Sugar covered my undergrad degree through ROTC, as well as a sizeable chunk of two graduate degrees. He also taught me that excuses are for wimps, the importance of reciprocal loyalty and that you should never draw on an inside straight.
I think you hit dead center on where a big part of the solution needs to come from redfox....community. I don't think government support is a bad thing in and of itself. I'm a very big supporter of having a safety net and go so far as believing it is a moral obligation in a privileged society. The problem is that sometimes people get caught in that net and can't get out. It seems like small shades of gray to go from helping someone to supporting someone to having someone depend on you. I'd just like to see us doing all we can to teach people to fish while we are feeding them fish, but it seems like there are a lot of areas where we, as a society, are just giving handouts without really doing anything to help people get into a more positive situation. I see that as a failure.
Bless you for the work you are doing to build community. And I mean that in the most sincere way. That is a very big part of how our society came to be as great as it is and, I agree with you here, how it will survive. Sidestepping the class war mine for a minute, the wealthiest folks around don't have a whole lot that we can't all have if we work together. Sure, money buys you more options and lets you feel a little more secure about your future, but that's nothing that most of us can't have even without great wealth. I beat the opportunity drum once in a while, but I really do believe that is where our true wealth lies. We should help people who need help, but we should also be doing everything we can to see that everyone has a chance to realize their potential. The best way to close the income gap is to bring the bottom up. Redistribution isn't necessary because wealth isn't a zero sum game. We can create wealth, in the form of opportunity, for every socio-economic class. Your parents are perfect examples. They got help with education and housing to get started. We may never go back to the Leave It To Beaver life that I grew up in, but we can do a lot to help people get started on self-sufficient paths. Like you, I know how to do that in a relatively small community. How do we accomplish it on a larger scale?
Thanks, Gregg! Same back atcha. I have to say that one of my models for community organizing & support has been the Mormon community. Many faith communities are incredible examples, as are many ethnic communities. In my neighborhood, the Somalis are rock stars when it comes to community support... Plus they love to party. ;) always a plus in my book when organizing!
So, a few reflections... First, scaling it up is what non-profit social services do. Every non-profit began at someone's kitchen table when they and a friend or two declared "we can end hunger/rape/homelessness/abused pets, etc. in our community!", and they were wildly successful. I've made my career in the non-profit sector because I like spending my time dedicated to a community based cause. Sometimes non-profits get out of line, like Komen did, and the donor feedback is instant and obvious. It is not hard to gauge the effectiveness of a non-profit; if one is making a demostrable impact in one's community, one is supported by donors. Outcomes generally equal support, in my experience.
Regarding the role of wealth, and wealth creation, I agree that it's not a zero sum game. Sadly, that wealth creation that has concentrated has meant that the big wealth accumulators are driving public policy, such that they are hoarding their wealth, often gotten at the expense of wage inequality in their corporation or industry.
Corporations are not people, but they are run by people, and there was a time when those leaders were people in the same community as their employees. The feedback loops were pretty immediate there as well. Henry Ford famously said that he paid his workers enough so that they could afford his product. His market was local, and he knew his business would be in trouble if he could not sell to his own workers. In Seattle, there is an ice cream business, Molly Moon's. In addition to selling the most addictive substance I know of, she pays her shop workers health insurance & a liveable wage. She is accountable to her local community! This community accountability has not scaled up. I believe corporations need to be limited in size, legally. Redistribution of wealth isn't necessary when the playing field is level, which it is not. Until all advantages of class, of race, of gender, etc., are gone, redistribution is necessary. I would be happy to see this change.
That's where government comes in. Of course, the baseline difference in political stance is usually in regards to government intervention. Since I am assuming neither of us are anarchists, that means we each hold some government role to be valuable. For me, I appreciate government stepping in when communites cannot or will not assist their own, and when community norms, like Mr. Ford's, are no longer effective, and when certain community players, like big corporations, take more than their share and do not give back to their communities.
I am a big fan of the Preamble to the Constitution as the context setting for the role of government. "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." Establish justice & Promote the general wefare are of course my favorite phrases! I am not a constitutional scholar, and much has been written about the meanings & intentions of this phrase. Let me just say that I emphatically believe that it is the role of government to make sure that basic human needs are met for everyone. This is a matter of equity, justice, domestic tranquility, and promoting the general welfare, IMHO!
Finally, the role of money in government. I detest the manner in which elections are run. The highly regrettable Citizens United case has injected money so clearly onto center stage in our democratic republic. We will live to rue that decision - I believe this election cycle is demonstration of how wrong a decision it was. I see our electeds for sale, I see their influence being bought, I see the logical result in the intense concentration of wealth at the top, back to the Robber Baron age. This is undoing our social safety nets, both government & community based. I was raised in relative security and modest comfort, due to the advantages I mentioned. I do not feel this security for my own family, and I have done things "right". I cannot imagine the terror of those who are poor. We need to get private money, all of it, out of our electoral process. That is what I believe will drive active revolution.
Thanks for sharing, thanks for listening. I sure would love to have this conversation over a cuppa!
ApatheticNoMore
8-23-12, 4:51pm
The way I see it is a lot of non-profits depend on grants to get by. Where do the grants come from? Sometimes from wealthy people and organizations but don't many of the grants also come from government? I don't have stats on what percentage, this is just my impression.
Then there's the problem with volunteering. All problems should be solved as a community with volunteering, right? But pretty soon you have volunteers in lead positions putting in 20-40 hours a week on the cause, but they also often have real world needs like working a job that actually pays money (rent/mortgage, health insurance, etc.!) as well. So with the 60 hour a week they are putting in, burn out happens all over the place. So then you need grants so you can actually *PAY* someone to work for your community organization, so it won't be dependent on volunteers running themselves ragged (and I know the appeal of volunteering but you have to draw boundaries). Ok so you need a grant, but again doesn't much grant money come from government?
The way I see it is a lot of non-profits depend on grants to get by. Where do the grants come from? Sometimes from wealthy people and organizations but don't many of the grants also come from government? I don't have stats on what percentage, this is just my impression.
Then there's the problem with volunteering. All problems should be solved as a community with volunteering, right? But pretty soon you have volunteers in lead positions putting in 20-40 hours a week on the cause, but they also often have real world needs like working a job that actually pays money (rent/mortgage, health insurance, etc.!) as well. So with the 60 hour a week they are putting in, burn out happens all over the place. So then you need grants so you can actually *PAY* someone to work for your community organization, so it won't be dependent on volunteers running themselves ragged (and I know the appeal of volunteering but you have to draw boundaries). Ok so you need a grant, but again doesn't much grant money come from government?
Great questions! The data is that 80% of the money that supports nonprofits comes from individual donors, and modest ones at that; the rest from grants & earned income. Yay, small donors!
Most grants come from foundations, and they get their money in many ways. Some are donor-directed funds, that is money large donors wish to donate, but anonymously, so the foundation serves as an intermediary, investing the donor funds for gain in the market, and making grants to nonprofits they vet according to their standards. Then there are the foundation arms of corporations, which derives its money from the corporation. Also, individual & family foundations, most of which are small. Foundation money is nearly always tax exempt for the foundation. I am not a tax attorney, so I will stop here!
Government grants these days mostly support academic research. I don't have data on that, but it can be had. Some government grants provide some support for non-profits, but these are usually very big organizations, like museums, universities, etc. Many non-profits also have an income stream from a fee-for-service work.
Yes, staff need and deserve to be paid! I work half time, and the rest of the time, I volunteer. I'd love to work full time, but the market sucks (in case no one else noticed...). However, until that changes, I give my time to projects I believe will better my community. My current passon is Community Kitchens! Ask the Google.
Here is a great example of local government providing food support for those with EBT cards, that will send local government funds, Foundation funds, and Federal funds directly into the pockets of local small businesses, leveraging an existing federal program, while benefitting low income folks to have better diets. This is a perfect constellation, IMHO:
http://mayormcginn.seattle.gov/low-income-residents-get-a-healthy-boost-through-city-of-seattle-fresh-bucks-program/
awakenedsoul
8-23-12, 9:58pm
redfox,
When I read your earlier post, I noticed you said things like "I'll never be able to afford..." Things could turn around for you. You have a strong personality. If you can believe that you will attract what you need, I bet you will. There are many places to live that are much more affordable than Seattle. A tiny house down the street from me just sold for $75,000. It has enough land to grow food. This is in LA! My parents didn't like the idea of me pursuing a dance career right out of hight school. I got all kinds of jobs helping mothers with their kids, pet sitting, house sitting for wealthy people, teaching dance, and running a restaurant at age 18! I was very motivated, and I'd grown up helping out with everything in the home. Where there's a will, there's a way. My dance career took off. Good fortune and "help" can come through many avenues. When I started looking at houses, I had NO MONEY. Still, I tracked the market and found this little cottage. No one else wanted it. It was a neglected eyesore. Now it's beautiful and the perfect home for me. Like you, my parents gave my brothers and I money for the down payment. My brothers bought homes that cost 9 times what mine cost. I think the kids will adjust and find their way. If you read books about the Great Depression, and how people survived, it's very eye opening. It was really bad in Canada. My neighbor left the Dust Bowl and came here. Studying those times has made me feel very fortunate and inspired me to be ultra frugal. Attitude is everything.
redfox... You have a strong personality. If you can believe that you will attract what you need, I bet you will. There are many places to live that are much more affordable than Seattle.... Attitude is everything.
Thank you! I have to say, I laughed out loud at your comment about my personality. It's quite true! And, I'd like to move back to a small town, but until we're no longer underwater with our mortgage, that's not an option.
I am the daughter of depression era parents. The survival blood in my veins is generations old. It's true that attitude, the way I think about my circumstances,is everything. I am a long way from homelessness & hunger... Onetheless, my debt level & lack of retirement funds does scare me, quite a bit. And not just me; I am sad & scared about the health of our neighborhoods, community, & nation.
Everything is temporary, and this too will change. Thanks for your good words.
awakenedsoul
8-23-12, 11:48pm
I have a strong personality, too. It's who we are. You sound very powerful to me, and I'm sure you can turn this around. You are facing the music and that's good. Some people would be in denial. Many people are scared right now, but I hate to see talented women my age doubting themselves. When my business was tanking, every day I would write out my financial goals. I still closed shop, but I paid everyone back, and got out of my lease. It was a clean, smooth break. I got my deposit back and a refund on my insurance. I just kept writing my goals as if money was no problem. (Dreaming big.)The solution appeared. You can do it! This is why I fast from the media.
flowerseverywhere
8-24-12, 6:23am
awakened soul, thank you for your posts. They are truly inspiring.
awakened soul, thank you for your posts. They are truly inspiring.
Agreed, great contributions!
gimmethesimplelife
8-24-12, 8:55am
I have a strong personality, too. It's who we are. You sound very powerful to me, and I'm sure you can turn this around. You are facing the music and that's good. Some people would be in denial. Many people are scared right now, but I hate to see talented women my age doubting themselves. When my business was tanking, every day I would write out my financial goals. I still closed shop, but I paid everyone back, and got out of my lease. It was a clean, smooth break. I got my deposit back and a refund on my insurance. I just kept writing my goals as if money was no problem. (Dreaming big.)The solution appeared. You can do it! This is why I fast from the media.Your words are very powerful, too. I'm giving up the media for awhile myself.....seems that I honestly get very little positive out of it. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-24-12, 8:59am
redfox,
When I read your earlier post, I noticed you said things like "I'll never be able to afford..." Things could turn around for you. You have a strong personality. If you can believe that you will attract what you need, I bet you will. There are many places to live that are much more affordable than Seattle. A tiny house down the street from me just sold for $75,000. It has enough land to grow food. This is in LA! My parents didn't like the idea of me pursuing a dance career right out of hight school. I got all kinds of jobs helping mothers with their kids, pet sitting, house sitting for wealthy people, teaching dance, and running a restaurant at age 18! I was very motivated, and I'd grown up helping out with everything in the home. Where there's a will, there's a way. My dance career took off. Good fortune and "help" can come through many avenues. When I started looking at houses, I had NO MONEY. Still, I tracked the market and found this little cottage. No one else wanted it. It was a neglected eyesore. Now it's beautiful and the perfect home for me. Like you, my parents gave my brothers and I money for the down payment. My brothers bought homes that cost 9 times what mine cost. I think the kids will adjust and find their way. If you read books about the Great Depression, and how people survived, it's very eye opening. It was really bad in Canada. My neighbor left the Dust Bowl and came here. Studying those times has made me feel very fortunate and inspired me to be ultra frugal. Attitude is everything.Wow, I am just blown away by your post. For so long it has been a given to me as I have seen things getting worse for myself and many that I know that the only real solution would be to leave the United States. I find it very inspiring that you have been able to hammer out a life for yourself with no money, just trudging along, and having things fall into place. Thank you so much for your posts.....Rob
I am a big fan of the Preamble to the Constitution as the context setting for the role of government... Let me just say that I emphatically believe that it is the role of government to make sure that basic human needs are met for everyone. This is a matter of equity, justice, domestic tranquility, and promoting the general welfare, IMHO!!
I don't disagree with that sentiment redfox and I continue to be fascinated by the Constitution. To really explore what it all means we should probably start the conversation over in PP, but I see a very slight, but important, difference between your interpretation and mine. Where you say the role of government is to make sure basic human needs are met for everyone I say the role of government is to make sure everyone can meet their basic human needs. I may be accidentally twisting your thoughts to fit my point (sorry if that's the case), but I do see that little tweak as a big part of the difference between the two most widely held political ideologies in the US. The ultimate goal is the same, its coming up with the best way to get there that's the trick. The devil really is in the details.
I sure would love to have this conversation over a cuppa!
I'd like that very much (a very civilized path to revolution!).
awakenedsoul
8-24-12, 11:21am
Wow, I am just blown away by your post. For so long it has been a given to me as I have seen things getting worse for myself and many that I know that the only real solution would be to leave the United States. I find it very inspiring that you have been able to hammer out a life for yourself with no money, just trudging along, and having things fall into place. Thank you so much for your posts.....Rob
Thanks Rob.
I talked with a woman on the bus the other day. We've chatted for years on our way home. She's around 60, and feels worried that her retirement money, ($30,000.), isn't safe with the cruise company where she works. They took her off sales and just have her taking cc payments now. She had really excelled in sales. She always got her bonuses. She is disheartened, and afraid the company will fail. We talked about her giving notice and getting her hands on that money, so she feels more safe and in control. My hit is, she's very good with people, and excellent at selling. There are other jobs in sales. I think change and taking a chance is what's hardest for people.
For me the key is to jump ship when the ship is sinking. After I got out of my lease, I rented hourly at a nearby studio for 6 months. The owner there was having financial problems, and there was a group of loud strange men next door that really hurt my business. (They were supposedly a ministry for addicts.) It just wasn't working. Her heat and air were constantly broken, and she was very high pressure with her religion. I stopped teaching altogether because it was failing. I was making $233.00 a month, teaching six hours a week. Much of the time I had one student.
Unbeknownst to me, my parents had set up a trust, and after my father turned 80, they started giving us money. I had no idea this was in place. The timing was a Godsend. My instinct was to save that money and spend as little as possible. My brothers can't live on that amount. I can live on half of it, if I have to.
May I join you two for a cuppa? You had me at "revolution" :D
I agree: The devil definitely IS in the details. And all the myriad interpretations of what it means to "make sure everyone can meet their basic human needs." We all think our own interpretation is fair and just, don't we? LOL
Joining Rob in a media fast. I've been doing it halfassedly for a while but now I'm dead serious. The mindless bickering is really interfering with my ability to do my best work in the world.
I don't disagree with that sentiment redfox and I continue to be fascinated by the Constitution. To really explore what it all means we should probably start the conversation over in PP, but I see a very slight, but important, difference between your interpretation and mine. Where you say the role of government is to make sure basic human needs are met for everyone I say the role of government is to make sure everyone can meet their basic human needs. I may be accidentally twisting your thoughts to fit my point (sorry if that's the case), but I do see that little tweak as a big part of the difference between the two most widely held political ideologies in the US. The ultimate goal is the same, its coming up with the best way to get there that's the trick. The devil really is in the details.
I'd like that very much (a very civilized path to revolution!).
I am sort of surprised at the disdain over NPR. They are my main news source and I find they at least go into some detail on the issues rather than the cursory take from the talking heads on network TV. They also have some informative general interest stories, most recently on the causes and effects of the massive wildfires in the west. I catch a fairly liberal twist to things occasionally, but that's where I'm at anyway. And they have commercial and news free music programming that I really enjoy.
Commercial TV is another story. I am definitely on a TV fast. I'm actually embarrassed by the campaigns of the two potential leaders of our nation. You hear their convoluted rail against the other and then watch or hear one of the fact checker follow ups and they both have Pinocchio noses that grow with each twist of new issues. Is it any wonder we don't trust politicians? What do young people take away from this when they see the most influential government leader of our country spinning the facts into near lies? Maybe we are better off having football players as role models, and that ain't sayin' much.
I am sort of surprised at the disdain over NPR.
I was caught a little off guard as well. I listen to NPR often. I usually don't have much problem picking out a liberal spin, but it really doesn't bother me. If nothing else I catch snippets of music I wouldn't hear anywhere else while waiting for "Wait Wait, Don't Tell Me".
What do young people take away from this when they see the most influential government leader of our country spinning the facts into near lies? Maybe we are better off having football players as role models, and that ain't sayin' much.
No, its not. My 16 yo DD does a little volunteer work with a woman's shelter here. I'm hoping the Director and some of the other volunteers, who are all incredible, will become role models for her.
Well, I am in a much better frame of mind. I hope my hissy-fit didn't upset anyone. Sometimes, the world just gets to be too much with me. Then, the best thing for me is classical music, Jane Austen, and good chocolate and news only once a day reading the newspaper. No television, radio, or Internet news. I will be interested in reading the posts responding to my original post. Thanking everyone in advance for your responses.
Well, I am in a much better frame of mind. I hope my hissy-fit didn't upset anyone. Sometimes, the world just gets to be too much with me. Then, the best thing for me is classical music, Jane Austen, and good chocolate and news only once a day reading the newspaper. No television, radio, or Internet news. I will be interested in reading the posts responding to my original post. Thanking everyone in advance for your responses.
I tell you, there is NOTHING like a civilized English novel to calm angst.
What would they do for stories? It seems that in most situations someone has the shorter end of the stick.
Competitive sports - definitely out. Seems like you can't hear about a game without having to hear about somebody losing (excepting ties, but they are pretty rare).
NPR likes a certain set of victims but not others (hint: anything dear to the heart of those on the right will not be covered.) And you know that sports stories are not at all what I'm talking about, but I can' recollect EVER hearing a conventional sports story on NPR, anyway. Years ago where there was a sports show it covered things like prisoners' volleyball leagues.
Also, on the local show, the interview can be so lame that there is no "other" side to present a case for NOT supporting the do-gooder organization being interviewed. They are just like one big paid commercial. For instance, all of the stories we hear about food banks. Is there ANY reason to NOT donate to a food bank? Could there be an opposing point of view? Not if you are NPR. Sometimes that is fine for arts and cultural events but sometimes, not so much. Last night I swore that if I heard one more thing about sex trafficking, I'm going to scream and what did I wake up to this morning? Lead story (everywhere, not exclusive to NPR local) was a sex slave who escaped. Now we are in it again for another 3 days.
Jane Austen, here I come. Actually, it will probably be Precious Ramotswe in Botswana.
...
Joining Rob in a media fast. I've been doing it halfassedly for a while but now I'm dead serious. The mindless bickering is really interfering with my ability to do my best work in the world.
pug get outta HERE, too! ha ha. I wish you peace of mind. Read an English novel.
awakenedsoul
8-24-12, 10:00pm
Well, I am in a much better frame of mind. I hope my hissy-fit didn't upset anyone. Sometimes, the world just gets to be too much with me. Then, the best thing for me is classical music, Jane Austen, and good chocolate and news only once a day reading the newspaper. No television, radio, or Internet news. I will be interested in reading the posts responding to my original post. Thanking everyone in advance for your responses.
It works for me. I don't miss television or radio at all. It's all about ratings, and they really bombard you. I'm getting a lot more knitting, reading, and yoga done! It's also cheaper!
Read an English novel.
By jove I think I will. The only one I own is Pride and Prejudice though. Can you suggest another?
My pug just walked up to me, made his mouth into a perfect "O" shape, and yelled, "Roooooo."
I doubt anything could bother me after that. Color me "fed up but still okay."
Wildflower
8-24-12, 11:08pm
By jove I think I will. The only one I own is Pride and Prejudice though. Can you suggest another?
My pug just walked up to me, made his mouth into a perfect "O" shape, and yelled, "Roooooo."
I doubt anything could bother me after that. Color me "fed up but still okay."
Those pugs are so silly! Mine makes me laugh everyday...
Really, I think everyone should own a pug. ;)
gimmethesimplelife
8-24-12, 11:11pm
May I join you two for a cuppa? You had me at "revolution" :D
I agree: The devil definitely IS in the details. And all the myriad interpretations of what it means to "make sure everyone can meet their basic human needs." We all think our own interpretation is fair and just, don't we? LOL
Joining Rob in a media fast. I've been doing it halfassedly for a while but now I'm dead serious. The mindless bickering is really interfering with my ability to do my best work in the world.Puglogic.....Starting that media fast right now! Just sat down with my cousin to watch the McNeil Lehrer show on PBS.....One of the topics was Mexico and the new PRI President Enrique PenaNieto. Let me state here that given I am not Mexican, I keep up with Mexican politics to a point that when I was recently in Los Algodones for my mother's dental issues, I floored several people, including the dentist, with my knowledge of and my ability to speak intelligently of current Mexican politics. Without going into great detail, I see Mexico to some degee as a safety valve (although not the most stable one) so of course I am going to keep up with it. Point being, the opinions being expressed really got my blood pressure going and I was thinking - why am I putting myself through this? For what gain? Better to be reading an English novel as Iris Lilly suggests. Or any one of many other more calming things to be doing. Who's in this fast with me? I'm thinking for me I will check weather only for a while and then maybe slowly find a sane - if such a thing exists - place online to get the very basics of what is going on. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
8-24-12, 11:32pm
About the only media I follow is on the net and I sometimes read a physical paper (not even everyday, but at least around once a week). I sometimes read books on relevant topics. I use the radio for: MUSIC. I don't want to give those things up (much less am I going to give up the internet as such,). They interest me. I don't see what is so wrong with that, I zone out the minutia (politician puts foot in mouth AND a dog has bitten a man!!! will wonders never cease?! ... news at 10). I did avoid the business section of the paper when unemployed (I read the rest), I couldn't read that downer stuff when I felt a bit economically insecure myself. When working, it still is a bit of a downer (life isn't great for working folks either), but less scary.
I prefer to be one of those accursed "low information voters", and don't watch TV, cable, or listen to news/talk radio.
Keeps the blood pressure down, and allows me to process more in-depth information as things sort out.
iris lily
8-25-12, 10:24am
I am not quite seeing how reporting data showing that the traditional middle class is making less money can be construed as "class warfare" unless you're gunning for conflict. It's just data, and it's mildly interesting to anyone who considers themselves "middle class" like myself --- and I'm no victim, thanks...
The fact that "share" figures in the article and someone immediately posted about The Pie tells me that the idea of who gets how much of the fixed amount that is The Pie is at the top of everyone's consciousness.
There seems to be two general sets of data in this study. One is income and net worth measures, and one is the thoughts and feelings of people about their financial situation.
I discount the latter as fact though it may be interesting. When I read that 62% think that Congress is to blame for whatever financial ills they have, I'm not sure how to draw a conclusion about downward mobility, which seems to be the theme of these articles. Hey I hate Congress with the rest of them but our Congressmen are not the single entity to blame NOR can those eejits solve my personal financial problems.
The other numbers--what I got from this article (the NPR version and another one from my liberal city newspaper) is that the median income of the middle class has dropped from $72,000 to $69,000, and that is a real measure that I can understand.
Median net worth means nothing to me since the housing market goes up and down, and anyone who uses their home as a bank will suffer the risks of that market, hello! And it's all on paper, anyway.
The numbers that show that more of income goes to the upper classes is interesting. I would like someone to tell me why this doesn't show that there are more people, or households (?) at upper income. I am sincere in this, I really can't see why this data can't be interpreted as "more people have access to more money in their household" Are number of households counted here, and is that a flaw or something that I can't see?
from the article
Another interesting graph shows that in past decades, the middle class continues to lose ground to upper incomes when you aggregate household income.
For example in 1970, the middle class held 62 percent of the income in the country. The upper income held 29 percent. Those numbers have now flipped: The middle class is at 45 percent and the upper income class is at 46 percent.
Uncle Sugar covered my undergrad degree through ROTC, as well as a sizeable chunk of two graduate degrees. He also taught me that excuses are for wimps, the importance of reciprocal loyalty and that you should never draw on an inside straight.
Ha Ha! And don't forget that most important of lessons Uncle Sugardaddy taught us - hurry up and wait :-)! Yes, Dear old Uncle Sugardaddy did do much for me although I was his over worked and under paid little slave girl (or is modern parlance: "bee-ach") for many years :-)!
awakenedsoul
8-25-12, 1:22pm
flowerseverywhere and Iris Lily.
Thank you. I didn't see your posts until today. Sometimes I lose my place when I come back to a post. I enjoy your posts, too. It's helpful to hear other people's solutions.
The in-depth NPR news story this afternoon was: Bad Republicans Create Victims in PA by Requiring Voters to Show Picture ID
There were interviews with Republicans working to push through this legislation and interviews with those where scared/mad/sad (the victims and their leaders.) NPR had to hunt really hard to find someone who was a citizen with voting rights yet had no birth certificate. She was from, um, was it Puerto Rico? Anyway, she had a Social Security card but no birth certificate. She qualified for a free state issued picture ID for voting purposes for just having her Soc Sec number.
The slant of this story was not: Repubs Make It Easy to Vote But Hard to Cheat as it might have been on another news source.
Voter Id, bad or good?
Voter ID: an expensive, ill-conceived response to a non-issue. I see the voter fraud allegations being used in a rather dramatic fashion, which I mistrust, no matter what camp of the political divides.
Voter fraud has been alleged from time to time, and the actual convictions are tiny. Since I prefer public policy being made based upon data rather than speculation, the issue is a non-issue. I wonder what other agenda might be driving the entire brou-ha-ha.
Here is the most reputable study I know about the issue.
http://www.truthaboutfraud.org/pdf/TruthAboutVoterFraud.pdf
Ha Ha! And don't forget that most important of lessons Uncle Sugardaddy taught us - hurry up and wait :-)! Yes, Dear old Uncle Sugardaddy did do much for me although I was his over worked and under paid little slave girl (or is modern parlance: "bee-ach") for many years :-)!
This is very true. If I had any doubts about the random nature of fate or the indifference of the universe to my particular welfare, the military did a great job of clearing them up. And they seemed really, really intent on making sure that I wouldn't mistake them for my mother. Possibly because both parties had such strong opinions on proper bed-making technique.
Voter ID: an expensive, ill-conceived response to a non-issue. I see the voter fraud allegations being used in a rather dramatic fashion, which I mistrust, no matter what camp of the political divides.
Voter fraud has been alleged from time to time, and the actual convictions are tiny. Since I prefer public policy being made based upon data rather than speculation, the issue is a non-issue. I wonder what other agenda might be driving the entire brou-ha-ha.
Here is the most reputable study I know about the issue.
http://www.truthaboutfraud.org/pdf/TruthAboutVoterFraud.pdf
Oh I agree that is largely much ado about nothing, and despite measurable registration fraud, that doesn't translate into measurable voter fraud. And I will also admit that photo ID doesn't stop all kinds of other fraud now, why would it stop voter fraud that was purposely and carefully orchestrated? Finally, I don't like the cost of it. I always hate the cost of these regs and laws.
But theoretically, I like it. I don't think that asking voters to get a Photo ID is too stringent to participate in this citizen responsibility.
But theoretically, I like it. I don't think that asking voters to get a Photo ID is too stringent to participate in this citizen responsibility.
Agreed.
happystuff
8-31-12, 6:11pm
The other numbers--what I got from this article (the NPR version and another one from my liberal city newspaper) is that the median income of the middle class has dropped from $72,000 to $69,000, and that is a real measure that I can understand.
Is this really true?!?! I'm actually really surprised to read this! Because we never qualified for any type of assistance what-so-ever, I always thought we (my family) were still part of the middle class. But if these numbers are right... we most definitely are not! Like someone else posted, we also pay more (slightly) for health insurance every month than for our mortgage, yet we can't afford to go to the doctor. (no co-pay and we have to pay the doctor the difference. Example: dd had an x-ray to make sure she didn't have pneumonia - bill was $50.00 less than the entire health insurance payment that same month.).
I guess we are in that "invisible void" of people that pay and pay and pay, but can't afford anything beyond the actual payments. I don't know. I can't figure it out. Politicians and their families should live on what MY family lives on for just 1 year and THEN start making their policies!
Is this really true?!?! I'm actually really surprised to read this! Because we never qualified for any type of assistance what-so-ever, I always thought we (my family) were still part of the middle class. But if these numbers are right... we most definitely are not! ...
This survey defined "middle class" as in this range of income:
$39,418 to $118,255 in 2011 dollars for 3 person household
the complete sutdy is here:
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/08/22/the-lost-decade-of-the-middle-class/
iris lily
9-17-12, 11:07am
To continue the discussion on NPR and its victim stories:
Last night I listened to "On The Media" which was a re-run show. The entire program centered on NPR itself and the issue: Is NPR politically slanted? I had heard this show in its original broadcast, and it was interesting. And as expected, the result of an independent analysis was mixed. doh. But anyway in this show Ira Glass argued vehemently and passionately that NPR is not slanted and he asked why does everyone think it is and why doesn't NPR brass (now minus the Schillers) counter that perception?
Then NPR programming went immediately into Glass' "This American Life" where the entire hour was devoted to victimhood: children from unstable families who do poorly in school because the trauma of their upbringing affects their brain development. The premise being: IF ONLY we devote enough TAX DOLLARS to gooberment programs to teach ghetto mommies how to attach to their children providing a strong emotional link and IF ONLY we throw enough tax dollars at programs to work with damaged teens and their brains we can fix this problem.
Ira. Really, dude, take off your blinders. Do whatever shows you want to do but do NOT expect me to interpret your message as politically neutral.
iris lily
9-17-12, 11:17am
You know creaker, it isn't so much that someone is getting the short end of the stick but a lack of solutions except for government intervention.
We all want a smaller government but we want someone elses pie to get smaller, not ours.
This is brilliant, don't know how I missed it the first time around on this thread. yep.
early morning
9-19-12, 10:56pm
Somehow I missed this thread until tonight..... ironic that in this election season, when I generally go on a news fast... my car radio decides to work again. I've not been able to get it to turn on for about 3 years, but hey, there's an election, so the bloody thing starts blaring campaign commercials at me in rush hour traffic - scared me half to death! Had to pop the front off of it to make it stop - I think it's possessed by the Tea Party or something, cause it was on a talk-radio station that I avoid like the plague at ALL times, not just election season!! I'm still hyperventilating - oy! :0!
I'll stick to books and coffee for my entertainment (although I have to admit that I love Ira Glass....) Iris, I just love Precious in Botswana too! She's my all-time hero - I really enjoyed the TV series and was sad there weren't more episodes.
Somehow I missed this thread until tonight..... ironic that in this election season, when I generally go on a news fast... my car radio decides to work again. I've not been able to get it to turn on for about 3 years, but hey, there's an election, so the bloody thing starts blaring campaign commercials at me in rush hour traffic - scared me half to death! Had to pop the front off of it to make it stop - I think it's possessed by the Tea Party or something, cause it was on a talk-radio station that I avoid like the plague at ALL times, not just election season!! I'm still hyperventilating - oy! :0!
LOL!!!
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