View Full Version : Permaculture at Home
Awakenedsoul and I started a conversation in a different thread that I thought was cool, but way off topic there. I copied the beginnings here hoping some others have experience with developing a permaculture that they might share.
I know what you mean, Gregg. I have a 567 square foot cottage on a 7,400 square foot plot of land. This year I really applied myself to growing food. It's been exciting and very rewarding. I've always had fruit trees, and I mulch and compost the land every year. Once you get an organic system in place, it's very healthy. I see such an ecosystem back there now. Lizards everywhere, tons of birds, worms in the soil, and even a pair of falcons in my poplar tree. There are plenty of fresh vegetalbes every day. My diet is a bit repetitious, but it's worth it. I have enough to share with my neighbors, too.
I plan to invest in more fruit trees, vegetable seeds, and limit my consumption of meat and chicken. If I had to, I could raise chickens for food, but I don't like to butcher.
Wow awakenedsoul, you already have going what I'm aspiring to. We just bought a 874 sq.ft. house on a 7,370 sq.ft. lot. Looking at my plan right now. Most of the work right now is on the house so we can move in by the end of the year, but we're going to get things rolling with the big plants this fall. The plan has 3 dwarf fruit trees along with all the shade trees, some for privacy & wind screening and several varities of big bushes, berries and brambles. A friend is a landscape architect so he's helping us out. I gave him my copy of Gaia's Garden to get him into the permaculture mode (with only moderate success). We're planning a chicken coop with 6 or 8 laying hens. We love eggs! We'll see how it goes down the road when they reach the end of their laying days...
That's great, Gregg! I find this size lot is ideal. It's a challenge to keep the weeds down sometimes, but straw mulching helps. Another thing I wish I'd done was to plant all standard size fruit trees from the beginning. My dwarfs only give me a few pieces of fruit a year. I read on Dave Wilson's website that he recommends keeping standard trees trimmed to 10 feet high. I do it this way now, and my trees are loaded with fruit. They also have wide root systems, so I don't have the weeding problem. I'm still trying to work it out so I have things fruiting each month, if possible. I hope to grow a lot more melons next year.
With all those chickens, you'll have plenty of manure for your compost. I'm also interested in putting in more tropical fruit trees: cherimoya, guava, lychee, etc...The longer I garden, the more I choose food that I love. Fruit trees take a while, but once they take off, it's really exciting and rewarding! Keep me posted!
I have a 15 year old chicken who still lays eggs! My neighbor gave her to me...
Interesting idea about pruning the full size fruit trees. Some of the dwarf trees seem to do pretty well around here, but I will definitely check out Dave Wilson's site. The USDA bumped us up two zones recently, but we're still a long way from tropical. I'll trade you apples and walnuts for guava and lychee! ;)
When I was a kid our garden was about an acre, maybe a little more. Space wasn't an issue. We almost never had to weed because my Dad was a firm believer in DEEP mulch. Once everything got going he would spread a layer of compost then a good 6" of straw. It worked great. The straw blocked the sunlight to the soil, kept it cooler and drastically slowed evaporation in addition to stunting any weeds that were trying to get started. At the end of the year the straw just becomes that much more organic matter for the soil. It does take more nitrogen to break down straw so it helps to rotate legumes or some other nitrogen fixing crop around the garden from season to season.
Forgot to add... You have a 15 year old hen that still lays??? OMG! I didn't even know chickens could live that long! Although knowing DW I suspect our chickens will have a shot at it because they will be coddled at every opportunity.
Great topic! I am in the middle of an 11-week permaculture class, and it has been so much fun, and so eye-opening! I've always "felt" the permaculture principles in my bones, but had virtually NO hands-on experience. DH and I have sporadically planted our little veggie garden with the basic tomatoes, cucumbers, and herbs, but that's about it.
However, I've always felt that our lives are so inefficient from the point-of-view of avoiding plugging into nature's rhythms. Most of what we do makes no sense at all! So, now, I'm very motivated to get that hands-on experience. I've been reading Gaia's Garden with a highlighter, reading every line very carefully. I've also got Introduction to Permaculture, and a few other books my instructor recommended.
Our final class project is coming up with a permaculture design for a specific site. A lot of projects will be focused on urban needs, as the class is in NYC, but I'm definitely taking advantage of designing my own suburban permaculture plot. I'm planning on relocating the veggie garden based on sun exposure, "encouraging" a depression in my back yard to be a small pond or a rain garden (haven't decided which), cutting down on lawn with more garden, ground cover and stone/mulch pathways, and putting an arbor over our patio. For the front yard, I'm thinking of training Virginia creeper on the second story exterior front, where the paint tends to chip and peel much faster than the rest of the house because of the southern exposure. I'm also considering maybe a swale to catch the run-off into the street and encourage infiltration.
I love hearing all the ideas from you more experienced folks!
I loved Gaia's Garden and also Earth User's Guide (Morrow) to understand basic principles. It just all feels like the right thing to do - kind of like simple living. I have little projects but nothing on a grand scale since I seem to have several obstacles: very long sustained hot climate, drought conditions, neighbors on either side whose lawns look like golf courses (they don't like the natural look) and most importantly lack of time to figure all this out. I am on 12000sf lot with a slight slope front to back with lots of large trees (oaks and pecans mostly) therefore too much shade to grow much food. The only fruit trees I have any luck with are pomegranates, loquats and figs. I am trying to leave several areas completely wild and in those I have cleared out invasives and introduced some native species. I do notice that my yard has far more birds than those around me so I guess I am on the right track there. So much to learn...
Great thread! We're sort of permaculture-in-progress here. We bought a house with a 22000sf (gentle) south-sloping lot specifically with the intent of turning it into a permaculture paradise. I'm using a lot of techniques from Gaia's Garden, including building swales to catch water (we're arid), stone, sheet composting, companion planting and "guilds," and a lot more. I wish I had unlimited funds and time, because I could literally do this all day every day and be perfectly content! Among my dreams:
--year-round greenhouse a la Penn & Cord Parmenter: http://pennandcordsgarden.weebly.com/greenhouses.html
--orchard with resilient fruit trees for our climate
--water conservation through swales, hugelkultur, and catchment devices
--chickens (of course!)
--a medicine garden, growing all the things I currently take instead of manufactured pharmaceuticals
--things grown specifically for biomass and composting, like comfrey
etc etc etc
Our biggest challenges are the climate (late/early frosts, hail damage, sustained heat/drought), water, and wildlife. Gaia's Garden talks about keeping out wildlife with special hedges and planting, but that doesn't really work on a hungry 1000-pound elk bull or a bear. Still scratching our heads over that one.
One day at a time...... LOL
Oooo...a topic after my own heart! I am trying to establish a food forest, as I have the room. I do have a garden for tomatoes and some herbs and such, but I must confess I'm not really into 'vegetable' gardening as I can get really super veg's at the farmers market. But, I am interested in a food forest! And the food forest does provide veg's! So far I have plums (4, 2 varieties, want more) pears (7, 4 varieties) thorn-less blackberries (about 15 ft row), 1 fuju persimmon, 2 chestnuts, 1 apple, 1 grape, 2 redbud, a dozen huge shag-bark hickory, sasafrass, white oak, daylilies, cattails, mint, fish (bluegill, catfish, bass, crappie).
I want to plant more apples, little leaf linden, figs, hazelnuts, new jersey tea, mulberry, more grapes, english walnut...and for the understory, comfrey, amaranth, more daylilies, clover, other herbs, gooseberries (maybe)
I love this topic! I haven't read Gaia's Garden. I guess I need to check that out!
Oh yea pug, I could also do this 24/7. When every one idea leads to ten more its awfully hard to take a break for things like work or food or sleep.
Water is a big deal in our design right now. That's mostly becuase our project is a blank slate, a sloping yard full of weeds and dead grass. It is also because we happen to be in a drought that is now classified as right on the borderline between 'extreme' and 'exceptional'. I lived through a few of those when I was growing up and remember full well how my Dad only watered our garden 1x or 2x a week where everyone else watered daily. Like I said above he used a THICK layer of mulch over the whole thing. That was the difference. We are using a combination of rainwater catchment, grey water, a swale, a network of trenches that are filled with gravel then buried into which rain and grey water will flow, heavy mulch, shade over a good part of the yard, etc. Our plant selections are native and/or drought tollerant to further reduce the need for supplemental water. The trenches will help insure some water is available for the trees and deep rooted shrubs.
As much as possible we're also using plants that attract bees, butterflies and humming birds. We figure that the other birds will come along for the ride, but will use a feeder or two as insurance. We will eventually have a water feature that will include a large rock shelf with very shallow water flowing over it that should be a big hit in the bird community. A variety of trees for shelter should round it out for the birds.
Does anyone have any advice on how to manage pests in your fruit trees? Other than drawing in as many birds as you can, that is. Around here its pretty standard issue to just spray the heck out of them. Kill everything that crawls and most that fly. Obviously we're not going to go that route and we may not even have a problem, but that is the one aspect of orcharding that I'm apprehensive about.
Try to pick fruits that can withstand the various buggies and diseases you have there. Then don't worry if some fruits get eaten. It happens. Just remember, one for the bugs, one for the birds, and two for you.
This is why I don't have blueberries or peaches. Both of those, here, need such special treatment, I simply refuse to grow anything that needs to be babied. I don't want anything that I have to spray every week for months on end, or constantly feed to change the acidity of my soil for a particular micro climate. I have a particular soil and a particular climate. Things must deal with it!;)
Have you all seen this? This is just about the coolest thing I've seen in a long time. Talk about permaculture! this system is designed to be completely self sufficient/ sustaining, even with power!
http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2011/02/18/seawater-greenhouses-produce-tomatoes-in-the-desert/
awakenedsoul
8-30-12, 5:22pm
Thanks for starting a new thread, Gregg. Sorry I got off topic. I liked hearing about your Dad's thick mulch. I've been ordering straw mulch for the last 15 years, and I love it. I was keeping it at a $100.00 budget a year, but I think this year I'll splurge and make it thincker. I've got some stubborn Bermuda grass, and that would suffocate it. It also helps when we have heavy rains. My neighbors have all kinds of mud problems, and my straw mulch just soaks it up like a sponge!
The birds really help a lot. I have: hummingbirds, robins, woodpeckers, falcons. owls, sparrows, starlings, blackbirds, and gold finches. I even once saw a roadrunner in my back orchard! I have lots of bees and butterflies. They love the wild sunflowers. I'm going to plant a couple more citrus trees in my front yard. In the old days, all the homes in the Valley had orange trees growing in the front yards. They were beautiful!
Dave Wilson's trees have been a cut above for me. I read that all the professional fruit growers Los Angeles buy from him. I like his ideas about planting fruit trees closer together. I'm starting to add berries to my edible landscaping, and they grow like weeds here!
awakenedsoul
8-30-12, 8:36pm
Gregg,
I forgot to respond your question about pests. I haven't had problems with insects. (I think the birds take care of those.) The chickens help, too. I have had critters at night come and chomp on my pomegranates and persimmons. Last year something ate all the pomegranates. I think there were over a hundred on that one bush. This was the first year I'd ever had a problem. If it happens this year, I'll pick the fruit early, and try to ripen it inside. Maybe in a brown bag or on the counter. Once the persimmons were getting eaten, I picked them early and ripened them inside and in the freezer. I have lost some trees, ( I think to fireblight.) I just plan to have challenges, but each year is better. I plant extra vegetables, and try to work around the problem, if possible. A gopher ate all 35 of my onions, but at least that kept him busy, and I got everything else. Netting can help, too.
I'm with peggy about not having anything that needs to be babied. Part of the alure to this arrangement, for me anyway, is that everything in it takes care of everything else so they don't really need me to do much! I also agree with planting about twice what you need so the critters can have a share, too. Worst case there is that they don't eat their share and you have to give some to the neighbors!
The Sahara Forest Project (big scale) and the Sea Water Greenhouses (any scale) are super cool. I had the good fortune to volunteer at the Rocky Mountain Institute for several years and this type of project was getting a lot of attention from the staff. It's the kind of project that answers several different questions at once, which IMO is exactly the kind of solutions the world needs right now. Kind of like permaculture, huh?
Love permaculture techniques. It’s amazing to me how productive the system is.
At the moment I can only respond to a few of the ideas in this thread at a time, so I will edit this post periodically as I get a chance to add additional info.
Books and Magazines on Permaculture:
See if you can get books by Mollison or Holmgren on interlibrary loan for more completeness. If Holmgren does another speaking tour near you, see if you can attend. It’s worth it to read all the books here
http://www.permacultureactivist.net/booksvid/BooksnVid.htm
as well as to read as many issues of the US and UK permaculture magazines as you can find.
Fruit trees:
I’d also vote to get a standard one and keep it pruned lower for picking as well. The productivity is much greater. Also, you can grow multiple varieties of fruit on one tree. For example I have had apple trees with 5 varieties on them. The most I have heard of is 40 varieties on one tree. The great thing is the limbs will bloom and produce at different times, extending your harvest and reducing frost risks. You can also graft multiple stone fruits onto one tree (cherries, plums, peaches, nectarines, apricots, etc) or citrus onto one tree (oranges, grapefruits, tangerines, lemons, limes, etc.). The multi-grafted trees look amazing—like a giant living bouquet when in bloom due to the variety of flowers, and then sort of like a christmas tree in fruit with all of the different colors of fruit. Consider adding varieties with a mix of winter chill requirements so you can cover more climate variation possibilities.
If you can get multiple families in your neighborhood interested in permaculturing the neighborhood together, you can increase the fruit diversity and trade fruit, as well as improve pollination for each other by how you site your trees.
Where insects are a problem for apples, one very successful solution is kaolin.
If you would like a variety that is currently not possible or is iffy in your area, leave space in your plan. Once a permaculture garden is underway, it often alters the microclimate enough that items from warmer areas will survive. See
Sepp Holzer's Permaculture for an excellent example.
http://www.permacultureactivist.net/booksvid/vid-dvd-cd.htm
Nut trees:
On smaller properties such as described in this thread, I’d avoid walnut. Walnut has a natural herbicide that will prevent most other food plants from growing in the area. If you can grow pinenut trees, put them on the north side of the house to deflect winter storms. Avoid nonfoodnut pines.
Trees in general:
Try to pick trees that will benefit you in at least three ways. For example an apple provides:
Shade in summer
Allows sunlight to the house in winter
Provides fruit
Can be grafted to provide 5-40 varieties as it grows
Good climbing tree for children
Fruitwood good for grilling or smoking
Some furniture wood or kitchenware uses
On the smaller lots, I’d avoid oak or maple since although they are beautiful and provide great shade, they don’t provide direct human food. If for some reason your HOA requires a nonhuman food tree, you could go with an oak if you are contributing to the feeding of a pig for meat or maple if you would like to use a limb here and there for small wooden bowls, wooden stirring spoons or other similar kitchen ware.
Drought gardening:
For an example of how a piece of desert can be turned into a productive food forest see the article here:
http://ag.arizona.edu/oals/ALN/aln46/lancaster.html
On the left hand side further down the page is a thumbnail that expands to a map which shows the incredible diversity created.
More info as time permits.
This is interesting. Full sized fruit trees trimmed to smaller. Are you sure you aren't talking about semi-dwarf? Cause a full sized tree can be quite a tall tree. I'll have to investigate this further. I have the room for full sized trees but the logistics of harvest and maintenance are what keeps me back.
I'm enjoying all the tips here! We established an 8-bed (4'x8') veg garden about 6 years ago and planted various fruit trees and bushes then. This year I'm working on expanding the edibles by moving the deer-resistant ones out of the fenced area to make more space, and planning the addition of more deer-resistant varieties throughout the landscape. No chickens yet but we're contemplating them...
I'm interested in the full-sized fruit trees kept pruned. We have a semi-dwarf apple and it is a really nice size for our yard; our sour cherry is naturally a fairly compact tree. I was planning to plant 2 more fruit trees next spring. How do the full-sized, pruned trees look - are there any online references you can recommend?
Here is a link about Fruit bushes, which is pruning a full sized fruit trees to a manageable height. Most of the fruit trees in this orchard came from Dave Wilson nursery, which was mentioned in the first post.
http://ucanr.org/sites/sacmg/Fruit_and_nuts/Fruit_Bush_System/
This thread is really inspiring me! I will have to check out that Gaia book. I've always loved the idea of a veggie/herb garden but don't know the first thing about it. I will be getting a few hens within the month. I am working on finishing the coop and I hope I can keep the bears away from them. I have a plan to put the hens in a more secure area at night but those bears are pretty strong and determined...fingers crossed.
Gardenarian
9-6-12, 3:21pm
I agree with planting standard fruit trees rather than dwarf, primarily because the standards live a whole lot longer. The lifespan of a dwarf apple tree is around 15 years; lifespan of a standard is 75 years, maybe 100s of years. I like to feel like I'm planting for the future.
Of course dwarf citrus are wonderful in containers - big producers.
I got my PDC last year and have been experimenting and observing this year. With so much information available I used to feel that I could just garden by the book, but really, it is amazing to see what actually succeeds and fails. Nothing like first-hand experience!
I got my PDC last year and have been experimenting and observing this year. With so much information available I used to feel that I could just garden by the book, but really, it is amazing to see what actually succeeds and fails. Nothing like first-hand experience!
Yes, I'm getting my PDC in September, but I told my kids, that and $5 will get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks! I am SO enthused about my permaculture course, but I am really starting out as a baby--not like many of the folk here who have years of experience out in the garden. So, the next stage in my training has to be all hands-on. I'm going to try a winter crop for the first time this year--in fact, I've just been carousing the internet looking for good ideas--I'm thinking of cabbage, beets, squash, bok choy. I'm just interested in experimenting. DH has put me down for planting peppers this past summer, because the yield is so small, but I tell him that I"m only in it for the experience at this point. I don't care if I get ONE small batch of guacamole out from my jalapeño yield!
I'm also close to Rutgers, so I'm thinking of volunteering at their gardens. DH is worried that he's going to find me sheet mulching the entire yard... well, I may try at least a corner of it!
awakenedsoul
9-6-12, 4:48pm
This is interesting. Full sized fruit trees trimmed to smaller. Are you sure you aren't talking about semi-dwarf? Cause a full sized tree can be quite a tall tree. I'll have to investigate this further. I have the room for full sized trees but the logistics of harvest and maintenance are what keeps me back.
The link that Birdie posted is where I got the idea. I've had amazing yields this way. I also want trees that won't have to be replaced. I just harvested 2 full crates and a large overflowing fruit bowl full of pomegranates off of one tree! I'm experimenting with ripening them inside, and it's working. Last year a critter ate the entire crop. I have a few semi dwarf trees, but I will stick with standards from now on. They are so vigorous, and they just fruit like mad! I trim them once a year, and that does the trick. His ideas on summer pruning for more fruit are interesting, too.
I just fed my melon bed. I've got some yellow and red heirloom watermelon coming. I thought I wasn't going to get any fruit, but I was wrong! I've got to start my winter vegetables soon. Happy gardening!
awakenedsoul
9-6-12, 4:52pm
Actually, the link I was talking about is a different one. If you google Dave Wilson fruit trees, he has a great website. My neighbor has a standard orange tree that is over 100 years old. It's so majestic! I love knowing that I have plenty of food in the backyard, too.
I will google Dave Wilson. Thanks.
ThetisIslander
12-19-22, 6:22pm
Hi, relatively new here. Living in the Southern BC Gulf Islands. Moved here in 2020, though we owned the property and rented prior. As the Gulf Islands are a threatened ecological zone, I am looking to ensure I contribute to preserving and enhancing the natural flora and fauna. Ideally, I would like to work to create a food forest largely based on local species. I am also looking to avoid adding carbon to the atmosphere.
One of my first steps was to deal with the fallen branches and trees. If suitable I do leave them to become nurse trees (hoping for huckleberries to take advantage of their stored water). For excess debris I am building hügelkultur mounds. This both provides a composting berm for large amounts of branches, and creates new soil, which I need lots of. Just learning about hügelkultur still, but I see it as a great tool in supporting my growing needs.
Next I am trying to learn how to propagate local species with mixed results. Salmonberries are easy, basically break off a branch and stick it in the ground. Wild strawberries are also easy. Not as much luck with Oregon Grapes, huckleberries, black cap raspberries. And no luck so far with trying to start Dogwoods and Yew trees (though I did find a 10" yew sapling in the ditch).
I would like to leave this place such that there is a natural food supply for the next person. At least I want to start the process.
happystuff
12-20-22, 12:33pm
Sounds wonderful, ThetisIslander! Good luck!
catherine
12-20-22, 1:47pm
Like happystuff, I think your ideas are wonderful!! Do you have local permaculture resources down there for advice? Or maybe a permaculture Facebook page?
When I hear about people like you doing what they can in their corner of the earth to restore and regenerate the land, it's so inspiring. Sometimes it feels so hopeless when you see what people who love nature are up against, but then you see others who are plugging away to make things better and that's what restores hope. So thank you for doing what you're doing!
As an example of people who make a difference, I've held on to this story about a woman in the Southeast who also did an incredible job in restoring the land. I keep this article bookmarked, because she is an enviornmental hero to me.
https://www.oprah.com/world/valer-austin-transforming-dead-land-in-mexico
ThetisIslander
12-20-22, 8:47pm
My skill with plants is legendary. They write songs about the plants I have killed. However, we do what we can. Luckily I come from a gardening/poor family and I did pick up some by osmosis. On Thetis Island we have a large environmental group which has just started a Nature Stewards program. Aiming to get landowners to ensure that 30% of their land remains natural. I am just doing a little at a time.
The way I figure it, that politician will not become the leaders we want them to be on climate change until we demonstrate that we are willing to follow.
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