View Full Version : Need a reality check if anyone cares to?
gimmethesimplelife
9-7-12, 10:13am
As many here know, I have been working for some time in food and beverage. One of the aspects I have liked in f and b is that until very recently, this has been a very easy business to get into as far as not needing to know much technology to get hired. Boy did I get a reality check on that one yesterday! Recently I applied online for a server position at an upscale ski resort for the upcoming winter. Two weeks ago in fact. It was a simple easy to fill out online application, quite painless. Yesterday I sent HR there an email inquiring as to the status of my application. Something told me to go to the actual application page and BOOM, there it was, in the last two weeks they have changed their application process and now you need to upload a resume and cover letter and a portfolio - though this last is optional - to comply with their application process.
Now here's the reality check. I can see where for an upscale server position this may be justified, but to bus tables or be a dishwasher? This strikes me as absolutely insane that such employees should be subjected to such tech requirements......What do you'all think? A cover letter to be a dishwasher? Rob
Go with the flow. The world is changing and we need to change with it. You may be applying for a dishwasher position today but in the future you may be considrered for the maitre'd.
ApatheticNoMore
9-7-12, 11:44am
Now here's the reality check. I can see where for an upscale server position this may be justified, but to bus tables or be a dishwasher? This strikes me as absolutely insane that such employees should be subjected to such tech requirements......What do you'all think? A cover letter to be a dishwasher?
I agree. I saw an ad like this wanting a resume for what was basically the type of job you'd do in high school or college to earn a little extra money. I send a professional resume just to toy with them. Oh I'm a bad girl, a very bad girl, I toy with people like that, but the completely ridiculous is completely ridiculous. Do what you must though. Of course we do what we must to survive, going with the flow to survive isn't necessary medal worthy, it's just the most basic what humans have always done. But that doesn't mean the flow isn't circling the tiolet bowl :)
I'm a poor person to ask Re:, because I'm so old-fashioned and see so many things differently than most, so portfolios, resumes, and cover letters, do seem ridiculous, petty, and over-the-top (for such a job position), but examining it from Razz's, standpoint, submitting your work-history and experience in such a formal way may provide you with added future opportunity/betterment. I say go for it, Rob.
The job search process was seriously high-tech when I last looked for work circa 2000, so this is nothing new. I'm kind of taken aback by people being computer illiterate at this stage of the game, but I shouldn't be--my partner is as technophobic as they come.
ApatheticNoMore
9-7-12, 1:43pm
The job search process was seriously high-tech when I last looked for work circa 2000, so this is nothing new. I'm kind of taken aback by people being computer illiterate at this stage of the game, but I shouldn't be--my partner is as technophobic as they come.
I never interpreted this as computer versus non-computer, ie whether or not you fill out an application on computer, but requiring resumes for jobs that have historically required applications. For example you want to work a retail position that in years past would be filled by a high school or college kid, they demand not an application be filled out but a *resume*. I've always thought this absurd because resumes have always in my mind been if not for strictly professional at least for an OFFICE JOB (reception, secretarial etc.), not a resume for being a barrista or working part time at the corner store the way they are being asked for now.
It seems ridiculous -- and it really may be -- but I'm guessing the decision to make that a requirement was made in some corporate "Talent Management" office miles away from the resort. And anyone applying for a job with them will fill out the same forms. I suggest swallowing hard and doing it. Or choosing not to work there, though I think you'll encounter this approach more and more. The good thing about it is that, once you get a résumé and portfolio (?) together, you won't have to change it much for them or anyone beyond the occasional update. You might want to check out how to do a proper text-based resume, though, since places like this tend to scan the résumé and you don't want that scan to introduce any errors.
When DH was out of work and having to fill out so many applications per week for unemployment I told him to go ahead and fill out one for Lowes. Did you know you have to fill out a seperate application and go thru those silly 'what would you do in this situation' questionairs for every single department. If you want to apply to Lowes, you have to apply to their electronics, flooring, appliances, garden, etc... Why they can't have one application with a check mark to apply your application to these various areas of interest is beyond me.
He did get offered lowes but declined.
The whole job search process has devolved, in my experience. Who you know has always been key (and I never knew anybody*), but at least the socially disadvantaged used to be able to go to a state employment facility where they would evaluate you and match you up with a deep inventory of potential employers. Now you're completely on your own, expected to spam all and sundry with your resume--which is subject to fad and fashion, so you had better know what buzz words to insert and what font to use. One of the usual recommendations is to join a professional organization in your field and schmooze the hell out of everyone you can buttonhole.
*Having said that, the last job I had was a referral from one of my college instructors. Spamming did get me a (pitiful) Microsoft phone interview. I am so not good at sucking up.
There is an assumption on the part of the employer that people have access to technology. At home, internet access is on the some day list and a luxury item. Cost per month may be $30 or more plus the electricity cost to the modem. Electronic devices are known energy vampires. When I had internet access, that was another $10 a month for energy. There are several SLNers who use the public library or free wifi at your local whatever. There is an assumption people have keyboard skills and understand how to navigate layered sites. Another assumption the employee has e-mail. All this costs alot. Soemthing about this smacks of have and have nots. Not everyone has a cell phone! Jeesh. Maybe I am dating myself and slipping into fuddie duddie mindset. Keep It Simple.
Cypress,
I understand, with the areas and people that I work with. We got had a short presentation by comcast today that was great. They offer internet service to families where a child gets free school lunches at $10 a month. They also offer it to families who live in a school boundary of a school that has over 75% free lunches so those families do not need to find individual paperwork. There is tied to this an opportunity to purchase a notebook style computer very affordably. My program sees this in the areas we work in that many of our families are struggling to keep up with the technology of getting a job.
E-mail doesn't need to cost anything. Most libraries have public access computers, and you can sign up for a gmail account for free.
I do think it is a bit silly to require a resume for basic entry-level service jobs. But it doesn't hurt anyone to learn how to put one together. HOpefully it will push those who need help with literacy or basic tech skills to look for it, but I can see how in many cases they might just walk away.
lhamo
There is an assumption on the part of the employer that people have access to technology. At home, internet access is on the some day list and a luxury item. Cost per month may be $30 or more plus the electricity cost to the modem. Electronic devices are known energy vampires. When I had internet access, that was another $10 a month for energy. There are several SLNers who use the public library or free wifi at your local whatever. There is an assumption people have keyboard skills and understand how to navigate layered sites. Another assumption the employee has e-mail. All this costs alot. Soemthing about this smacks of have and have nots. Not everyone has a cell phone! Jeesh. Maybe I am dating myself and slipping into fuddie duddie mindset. Keep It Simple.
I ran across a similar issue in a club to which I was President; maybe 10% of the members did not have email access and they didn't like that they were not kept as up to date as the email users. I agreed with them that having email was not a requirement for belonging to our club. But neither was having a phone, for that matter. Certainly life would be less expensive and simpler without a phone. Email certainly made it easier to contact members and keep them up to date. I (or any other officer of the club) could send one message at any time of day or night to 90% of our members with one click. Then there were the three or four members who had to be called individually during "appropriate" hours. Maybe I came across as a tech weenie or just an outright jerk, but I think American society is at the point where having email can be considered the norm. Doesn't mean everyone has to use it, but it does mean that they may miss out on things for choosing not to have it. That is their choice.
Yahoo, gmail, and Hotmail all offer free email accounts. No charge for the account. Computers which can access these sites can cost no more than $50 or so or you can find one at your local library (or senior center, if one qualified); if so, no charge for any electricity. Classes and tutorials on how to use computers and email (at least at a basic level) are numerous and many are free. Computers themselves are far more efficient than they used to be. Every computer can "sleep" (use a fraction of electricity if it's unattended) or you can just switch the computer off. The pieces-parts use less energy, too -- especially laptops, which can tie low power usage directly to long battery life. Your TV probably uses more electricity than most current computers -- on or off.
I agree that there's a technological divide in the world. There still is some in the U.S. But the number of people I see who obviously are not even of average means but still have $75-100 a month to throw at a smartphone (that they don't know how to use fully) tells me the technological divide in the U.S. is more a matter of choice, less a matter of money. That may not be your situation, Cypress, but it's what I see as someone who has been in the field for years and has worked with scores of people who are not "computer geeks".
I agree that a resume for a retail or restaurant job might be a bit overkill, but it certainly doesn't hurt to know the basics of how to put a resume together.
For anyone who wants classes on the basics of computers, plus MS Word/Excel (Power Point might even be offered) and even Facebook, plus your iPad Kindle (and other eReaders), check out your library. Mine offers classes in all that I listed, and I'm sure there's a few I listed. Classes are free for everyone.
Steve, I'm seeing the same sort of thing with my church. Our priest has communicated a lot via email as long as I've been a member (over 4 years), but in trying to keep costs down, he recently decided to try emailing out the weekly bulletin and monthly newsletter in pdf form. Google Docs (well, Drive now) is a solution he hit upon after talking with a few of us, as sending it as an attachment wasn't working well for some people. I don't know exactly why. An email with the link to the file on Google Drive works much better. There are still a few people, mostly older ones, without email, but there are still copies at church for them as well as visitors.
And even obtaining a basic computer, especially a laptop, for basic email, word processing, and the internet doesn't have to cost anything.
I know several people recently whose computers have gone kaput for various reasons. Family and/or friends all had an old (2-5 years old) extra laptop sitting around that was given to the person in need of a computer. Heck, you don't even need to buy MS Office for word processing or spreadsheets. LibreOffice (the successor to Open Office) is a FREE, open source software suite, that is very much like MS Office. All you have to do is download from the internet. I also don't spend anything on anti-virus software for my Windows laptop - MS Security Essentials, downloaded from Microsoft's website, is free, plus it runs better and doesn't hog up your computer like Norton and that ilk.
You can just go to the library or any place with free wifi and do job search stuff, for example. McDonald's locations often have free wifi.
ApatheticNoMore
9-8-12, 4:28pm
Actually I think it's a decent critique, the cost of basic subsistence is driven up in modern consumerist technological technocratic (?) individualistic society. But I don't think that's going to change anytime soon (haha barring total collapse).
When not just food, water, shelter, protection from the elements are basics of life, but cell phones and computers become basic "got to haves" for life in *this* society, how can anyone deny that that is driving up the cost (and resource cost) of basic subsistence at least a little? A far bigger thing that drives up the costs is: cars. Let's be honest having a car is very close to a necessity for many jobs. There are many employers who straight out will want you to have a car (I think this is more common in the lower paid jobs really - most professional jobs will assume you will find a way to get to work and leave the means to you). Even if the employer doesn't care, cars are often the only reliable means to get from A to B, ESPECIALLY if one is working non-standard shifts such as night shifts etc. (many a bus does not run that late). There are exceptions, there are jobs and cities served very well by public transit etc.. Just it often becomes a kinda sorta necessity for earning a living in this society, just like a computer and internet connection, maybe just like professional clothes for some jobs, etc.. Yes you can go to the libarary and maybe wait in line for your strictly limited time on the computer (assuming you live close to a library, otherwise we're back to needing a car ...). Whenever a city decides to get rid of say it's public pay phones, and maybe on somewhat decent cost-benefit reasoning that most people have cell phones these days and don't need public pay phones etc., whenever something like that is done, it makes the norm of the majority (most people have cell phones) even more of a requirement for everyone, thus driving up the basic costs of living at least a little.
So basic costs of living are driven up (and even if you find a way not to drive up costs, like using the library computers, that is generally just paid for with convenience rather than money - it's somewhat of an inconvenience to wait in line for your 30 minutes) - eventually enough of the population has computers that libraries stop even providing them and only provide wifi - watch it happen! You can go to a coffee house or McDonalds for your wifi, but honestly don't you feel at least a little obligation to buy something, a drink or whatever, if you do? You know that's why businesses offer it right? By and large as individuals we may have to adapt to the norm and if you are short on money it pays to find the cheapest ways to adapt. But I still think mass consumption patterns can push the consumption patterns of even the reluctant minority up. Still, it is what it is, I dont' see it changing, and I don't highly prioritize technology, anyone who prioritizes organic produce over smart phones in thier spending is on my wavelength :).
Uhhhmmm, what is a "portfolio" for a server?
I don't think they're thinking about it. They're like, "oooh, look at this cool online application process program we can get. Everybody else takes online applications, we should too. Let's set this process up...Ok, next question, 'do you want an upload resume option on this system?' Well, that sounds good, check."
I don't think they really expect the busboy to have computer literacy skills and a resume. I just don't think they're thinking about it. And I don't think they have a clue how time consuming it is for the applicant or difficult (i.e., repetitive) it is to negotiate. I don't think they're thinking. They're just signing on to the newest thing because it's easier for them. They don't care how it impacts the applicant or if it's too laborious for the applicant.
gimmethesimplelife
9-9-12, 8:27am
I don't think they're thinking about it. They're like, "oooh, look at this cool online application process program we can get. Everybody else takes online applications, we should too. Let's set this process up...Ok, next question, 'do you want an upload resume option on this system?' Well, that sounds good, check."
I don't think they really expect the busboy to have computer literacy skills and a resume. I just don't think they're thinking about it. And I don't think they have a clue how time consuming it is for the applicant or difficult (i.e., repetitive) it is to negotiate. I don't think they're thinking. They're just signing on to the newest thing because it's easier for them. They don't care how it impacts the applicant or if it's too laborious for the applicant.Hmmmmmmm......I haven't looked at it this way before but I think you may very well be right.....Makes self employment seem even more attractive.....Rob
gimmethesimplelife
9-9-12, 8:29am
Uhhhmmm, what is a "portfolio" for a server?I'm thinking it 's a collection of nice comment cards, letters about your service (nice ones, of course, or copies of e-mails to this effect), positive reviews from serving jobs, anything in writing that makes you look like you have a good attitude.....Rob
gimmethesimplelife
9-9-12, 10:21am
Just thought I'd add I ran across it again today this early AM.....I went to coolworks.com and saw that Stovepipe Wells, in Death Valley, California,has changed it's application procedures too and now wants resumes and covers letters for all positions.....I am wondering seriously if under the Americans with Disabilities Act some employer out there may get slapped with a HUGE lawsuit due to making the application process impossible for some with disabilites.....Just a thought. Rob
I am wondering seriously if under the Americans with Disabilities Act some employer out there may get slapped with a HUGE lawsuit due to making the application process impossible for some with disabilites.....Just a thought. Rob
I'm curious what kind of disability would prevent someone from submitting an electronic application for a food service job but not prevent them from typical duties like order-taking, moving orders and food and tableware back and forth, etc. And at least in most of the restaurants I frequent (beyond fast-food), the waitstaff has to sign in to a computer to record what was ordered and to generate the bill. So one would need some basic computer knowledge at least for the POS system....
ADA does not mean everyone can do everything. No one gets sued because someone in a wheelchair cannot be a firefighter and climb a ladder propped against a burning building. Certainly if the issue is a lack of access to or education in computers, applied to someone who otherwise can function well in society, ADA is not pertinent at all.
gimmethesimplelife
9-9-12, 1:08pm
I'm curious what kind of disability would prevent someone from submitting an electronic application for a food service job but not prevent them from typical duties like order-taking, moving orders and food and tableware back and forth, etc. And at least in most of the restaurants I frequent (beyond fast-food), the waitstaff has to sign in to a computer to record what was ordered and to generate the bill. So one would need some basic computer knowledge at least for the POS system....
ADA does not mean everyone can do everything. No one gets sued because someone in a wheelchair cannot be a firefighter and climb a ladder propped against a burning building. Certainly if the issue is a lack of access to or education in computers, applied to someone who otherwise can function well in society, ADA is not pertinent at all.This could very well be....I am certainly no expert in the ADA act. I am just wondering if no accomodation can be made in the application process for someone with a disability would there be employer liability due to the ADA act? I don't know. It may very well be there is not if the candidate can not do the job due to disability, I don't know.....But I would not be surprised if someone with a disability did not try to sue for this.....once again, I am no legal expert and could very well be wrong. Rob
I'm curious what kind of disability would prevent someone from submitting an electronic application for a food service job but not prevent them from typical duties like order-taking, moving orders and food and tableware back and forth, etc....So one would need some basic computer knowledge at least for the POS system....
Busers and dishwasher help don't interface with POS system. Also, completing a resume and electronic application could be considered a different skill from using a POS system.
Busers and dishwashers could have reading comprehension disabilities that require accommodation to help them complete necessary job application documents.
This could very well be....I am certainly no expert in the ADA act. I am just wondering if no accomodation can be made in the application process for someone with a disability would there be employer liability due to the ADA act? I don't know. It may very well be there is not if the candidate can not do the job due to disability, I don't know.....But I would not be surprised if someone with a disability did not try to sue for this.....once again, I am no legal expert and could very well be wrong. Rob
I'm no legal expert, either, but I am more familiar with ADA both for having a close disabled relative (for whom I am a guardian) and for having supervised disabled employees in the past. So it may very well be that someone could sue an organization that requires electronic applications.
I guess the way I see it is that the electronic-application process is relatively open. A person with no computer skills (and who would be unlikely to need them in the course of his/her job) probably could team up with a trusted friend or relative to submit the application, with the friend/relative typing and clicking and whatever. When I see job-application kiosks, I don't see prohibitions about having only one person in the cubicle. To me, that is the "reasonable accommodation". But I still believe that having basic computer skills is rapidly becoming (if it has not already) an expectation of at least larger employers, and that the barriers to acquiring the needed skills is not high for the vast majority of people.
Gardenarian
9-10-12, 2:57pm
Many companies now use computers to go through applications, cover letters, etc. and scan for keywords to help in the hiring process. It seems crazy to me. Here is an article about that: How to get that computer to send your résumé to a real person. (http://msn.careerbuilder.com/Article/MSN-3099-Cover-Letters-Resumes-Search-engine-optimization-for-your-r%C3%A9sum%C3%A9/)
ApatheticNoMore
9-10-12, 3:36pm
Many companies now use computers to go through applications, cover letters, etc. and scan for keywords to help in the hiring process. It seems crazy to me.[/URL]
It's a fast screen but for any real evaluation of anything it is crazy. The criteria by which a person will put a skill on their resume differs, some will put it on when they know the tiniest amount about anything, some only when they think they have at least workable knowledge. The keyword screening will screen in favor of the braggers (they may not get further than that but they will be the most likely to get to that point, and in the end statistically it probably works in their favor).
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