View Full Version : Unfathomable News
We got word last night that our best friends and former neighbors, a couple, have died. Worse, he took her life then his own. The magnitude of that statement is still soaking in. I know how this community rallies to provide support and will appreciate the kind words, but what I need most is any insight anyone has on how we might comfort their daughter, age 24, who still lives in the same small town they did. She is truly like one of our own. She grew up in our house and our kids in theirs. We moved a couple years ago and are now some 700 miles away. We are heading there today and will hold her and just be there as we all try to figure out what to do next. Right now we don't even know when anyone will be allowed in the house (crime scene), much less what to do about funerals, memorials, legal matters, bills, etc. She's in a very strong community there so will have all the external support she needs and I'm sure we will all be able to figure things out. We've been there for a lot of friends that have lost loved ones to disease or age and a few times to accidents, but have never faced anything like this. If anyone here has any training or knowledge regarding how to help victims of something this horrific I would be truly grateful for any ideas.
I don't have any experience to share, but I do want to say how sorry I am.
Right now the only thing you can do is to show support and do not say anything negative about her father, not matter how angry at him you might be. Let her, if she is so inclined, rail against him. Take your cue from her about her about him. She may be furious with him, she may see him as a sympathetic figure, or she may go back and forth between the two, so assure her that is ok.
Part of of horror of these situations is that they are not simple and in the aftermath survivors try to figure it out, but it's impossible.
In a few days you can help with the practical matters of their house and I'll bet that you can be very helpful in that area.
When our friend and neighbor shot his wife (also our friend), killing her, it was the end of an era for our neighborhood. That event ended many frieindships and to this day some people are not speaking to each other. That event made a rift that we will never recover from. Suicide is horrible and a murder/suicide is worse. What an awful legacy to leave his grandchildren
Like herbgeek, Gregg, I don't have any words of wisdom, but I'm so sorry for the loss of your dear friends. My heart and prayers go out to you, your family, and your friends' poor daughter. What a shock and a terrible tragedy.
I'm sorry for your loss, Gregg.
I have no direct experience with such an ending, but I do have some experiences with sudden deaths. What I can offer is to just listen and not fear silence. I'm sure a lot is going through your friends' daughter's mind right now (probably is through yours, too); short of making sure basic needs are met, the best thing I think you can do is to be around for her as she processes this.
flowerseverywhere
9-9-12, 12:14pm
Perhaps help her contact her physician so she can be referred to a grief counselor? You and your wife might need support as well.
I am very sorry to hear about this.
My family had a situation where my great-uncle found out he was ill and killed my great-aunt and then himself. We were all, needless to say, quite shocked.
No advice, but I do send my best wishes that you will all find comfort and peace.
All I can offer is to let your friends' daughter take the lead. She may welcome counseling, or she may absolutely not. She may want to talk it out, or she may retreat within herself. She may blame herself for not somehow foreseeing or preventing this awful act; she may feel rage. I don't think there's a template for dealing with such a horrific life event. I'm sorry you're all having to go through this.
Perhaps help her contact her physician so she can be referred to a grief counselor? You and your wife might need support as well.
This is good advise also check if there is a Hospice in the area. They have grief counselor. It is wonderful that you can be there for her.
Tussiemussies
9-9-12, 1:38pm
Gregg, I don't have any answers but just want to tell you how very sorry I am that this happened to your friends and how sorry I amm for their daughter. Prayers will be sent.
Oh, Gregg, my dear. I am so sorry. What a tragedy... I encourage the basics of self-care; regular meals, water, sleep. Perhaps taking some vitamins B & C to support your immune system.
The daughter is in an altered reality that few understand. If you research trauma response, you'll see that the emotions are all over the place. It's called emotional lability. Also, important to know is that her short term memory will be non-functional. Please let her know that this is a normal symptom of trauma. She'll have conversations with someone on the phone, hang up, and immediately forget who she just spoke with. It makes one feel as if they are losing their mind. The exhaustion she's experiencing, too, can be debilitating.
Support from immediate friends is so important, even if you are simply with her, encouraging her to drink water, nibble on some food, being the older adults she needs right now. Managing the logistics, having one family spokesperson to field inquiries, will protect her.
Since this was a domestic violence situation, the local DV shelter will have some good referrals for a therapist who can see her & the family immeditely. I encourage you to participate in any meeting with a trauma counselor. The localpolicewill hopefully know how to connect with DV services. I am happy to research this for you if you'd like; if so, PM the town the family is in.
I am hoping this family is a part of your faith community, as that is an incredible resource. Would your church embrace them & provide support even if the family is not Mormon?
Please take good care of yourself as you provide love, support, & protection for this young woman. Let us know how we can help.
awakenedsoul
9-9-12, 1:58pm
This is so sad. Thank God she wasn't killed as well. I don't have any direct experience in a situation like this. When I was growing up, one of my friend's brothers killed both of his parents. I was 17, and had moved out of the house. It was eery, because I had run into the boy in LA. He had moved there, too, and was in his early twenties. He was bragging about being a big hotshot director, and asked me if I wanted to be in his chorus line. ("The longest chorus line in the world." His words.) Found out later that he was having financial problems. The father was a doctor. I used to play with their daughter, and was at the house often. At first the siblings were against him, but ultimately, he got off. I don't know what happened. My mom said they changed their minds. She followed the story in the paper. It was tragic.
Oh Gregg, I am so sorry. How tragic for everyone. My cousin took his life. I was out of the country, but I do know it was just debilitating for the family. Small, everyday things became insurmountable, and just deciding what to have for dinner was almost impossible. Does she have other family there to help her? Perhaps the best thing you can do right away is simply be there and take care of all the little things, laundry, shopping, making sure her bills are paid (having bill collectors harassing her at this time would be horrible) mowing the lawn, and helping her navigate the unknown, lawyers, inquiries, etc... Actually, what might be really helpful is to help her sort though her parents papers, wills, insurance, mortgages, bills, investments, that sort of thing. A 24 year old is probably not up on the finances of two well established lives with all the financial details that go with them. She probably doesn't know where to begin, or even what to look for.
Again, I am so sorry. For her and for you as you need to find strength in the midst of your own grief to give her.
Gregg, There are never right enough words to say at times like this, but just that I'm sorry to heard about this. My thoughts to you and your family.
I have no experience or any great ideas for helping the daughter. There are several professionals trained to help with this sort of thing. Pastors, social workers, and some of the others that have been mentioned. I think the support of family, friends and community might be the best medicine.
Oh gosh Gregg......this is really tragic. I'm so sorry.
Does she have friends/family near her that she can get support from?
Just stay in touch with her.
How tragic for your and the friend's family. Sometimes things never make sense - 'it just is what it is'. Getting to that stage of understanding can be the biggest challenge and will take time. We had a suicide in the family and the hardest aspect for the immediate family to deal with over the longterm was the speculation by extended family, friends and acquaintances on the reasons for the suicide. Perhaps you can help most with this by your presence. Shut down the speculation by others and relieve any self-blame that may arise. It may take a number of venting sessions and reassurance. Based on going through this experience, the surviving spouse now simply states that "Life happens".
We can never know what other people are thinking. We can only ever be responsible for our own thoughts, feelings and actions. Neither you or their daughter can ever take ownership of others' thoughts, feelings or actions no matter what they are or how close a kin or friend that they may be.
I have just finished a 24 lecture 'effective communication" course and offer this perspective from the professor. He says that in difficult situations, men will too often try to find solutions and offer advice but women (meaning the daughter) simply need to feel connected and to be heard with respect. Be aware of this when dealing with the daughter. Unless and until she asks for advice, don't give it. Hope that doesn't sound unsupportive of me for the situation that you are going through.
Gregg, I admire you greatly for being there for this young woman. I'd echo the suggestions above that above all, this woman needs to have someone to listen, not to solve (because what is there to solve?) There is no one right way -- black and white, logical, rational -- to deal with this. It's a matter of listening and attuning yourselves to what she seems to need most, spoken or unspoken.
There is no explanation for why and how these things happen. People become convinced that it is the only path; all others go dark, leaving only this ghastly direction (in their perception). At least that is how it was explained to me, and I have lost multiple friends and family members to violence.
So absent a concrete rational explanation that will make her all better, try to be there and intuit what is needed most: Listening, talk, or silence; distraction or involvement; self-care always always.
I am so sorry, but so glad that you are doing this.
Gregg,
So sorry this tragedy has hit your community.
This may sound like a strange suggestion, but one very practical thing you might be able to do to help is to volunteer to deal with the insurance company, if either of them had life insurance. I'm guessing the father's policy will be voided due to the suicide aspect. I would hope that the same won't be true for the mother. Anyway, I can imagine that dealing with the bureacracy of that would be a nightmare for a survivor. So even if you can just call the company and verify what the situation is from their perspective, and get things started so that any benefit can be paid out, that would be a huge help to the daughter. I'd start there, if she doesn't have someone helping with that already, and maybe offer similar help with other financial accounts.
lhamo
I am so sorry. We had a situation like that in our neighborhood: I was involved professionally, not personally, but I can attest to redfox's comment about things feeling surreal, memory distorted and concentration absent, and that can continue for a long time. Lhamo has a good idea; you probably want something concrete to do, and insurance is concrete (and irritating to deal with, I have heard). Also razz's point that people will be speculating and if you can help to protect the daughter from that it might help her. People speculate as a way for them to process and try to make sense but the closer you are to the situation, the less helpful it is.
Hug to you.
I have been thru this in our family. It is NOT an easy issue to deal with. I would suggest that maybe there is some help in the form of domestic violence/grief counseling. You may never know what the motivating factor was, or it may rear its ugly head in the days following the investigation.You are all going to go thru the stages of grief, especially when you were not expecting it.Just be there for each other and be supportive of each other, and above all, be patient with each other. These things tend to cause rifts between families and friends.Be prepared--everyone will have an opinion regarding this.Good luck! I am so sorry for you and for the surviving daughter.
Listen when she talks. Distract her when possible. Help clean up the house (blood takes a long time to clean up, but to do that quickly is real good. Laugh when possible. Feed her food she really likes. Help her see if she gets into self-destructive cycles, in other words if she's identifying with them. Just one mention is al that takes. Listen for what she'd like from you and from herself in coping with this. Ask if she could have any kind of help at all what would it be, and then do it if possible. Do/say things that help her feel as strong as possible in the face of this--too much help-talk can sabotage that. Discussing specifics in this situation can help.
gimmethesimplelife
9-9-12, 9:12pm
God how awful. I am truly sorry to hear of this Gregg. You mentioned before that you live in a small town - I am guessing this may magnify the impact as many if not all people know each other and such a thing will affect the whole instead of be mostly anonymous like it would here. Here's wishes to dealing with this as best as possible to all affected. Rob
Very sad news, Gregg. Lots of good advice above. Would just echo the responses that it would be a help and a comfort for this young woman if you or others could help the other family members (if there are any) with the immediate stuff like answering calls, handling mail, etc. and then more long-term assistance with grief counseling, finances or other issues.
Best wishes to all concerned.
... People speculate as a way for them to process and try to make sense but the closer you are to the situation, the less helpful it is.
That is very wise, so true.
ToomuchStuff
9-10-12, 12:49am
Others have made good suggestions for a horrible situation. My main comment is do NOT comment around her or your other kids as it eventually may get back to her (even years from now which can still cause harm). Until LEO's have determined it was a murder suicide and release the house, it is speculation (appears to be). Also since you have moved, you don't know if other stuff has gone on, not counting what they may have been trying to hide.
Do get her counseling and you may want to go with her. Watch her as children of suicides are more likely to commit them in my experience. Helping with the insurance, house, etc. is a real good idea, but other then the funeral/needed expenses, I would just have her place all the cash aside for a while, until she gets over this.
I have seen how this affects both victims, and law enforcement and since you are a parent figure, just be there and offer help to her grandparents if they are in the picture. (get permission to help her, unless she prefers your help due to what happened)
Gregg, very sad to hear of your and her tragic loss.
Lots of great suggestions above.
A few more ideas
1) A D-ring large notebook, some acid free paper, a box or two of plastic pages into which other items can be inserted will be helpful for organizing all the info and notes. One section can be used as a log for things she receives. Another section can be used to make a list of contact info for people who offer help. When people offer help, she should ask them what kinds of help they have in mind for her or parent's house (lawn mowing, cleaning, phone calls, addressing thank you notes, cooking, hauling stuff, professional skills such as plumbing or electrical work, dog walking, babysitting, etc.) A journal, or notebook, or D-ring binder could be useful for you as well.
2) Talk to people at the funeral home and the register of deeds about who has checklists of what to do in your county after someone dies. See how many certified copies of the death certificate are usually needed. Get them all at once.
3) Talk to police about the best chemicals to use to clean up the house once the crime scene is released. What protective gear is needed for the cleaner person?
4) The police may have a crime victims unit. See what may be available to her through that. Her mother, as a victim of homicide, may be eligible for some benefits as well at the local or state level.
5) See what the real estate disclosure laws are in your county about reporting violent deaths that occurred in the house. The requirements may affect when the house can best be sold if she wants to sell the house. In general though it is best to wait a year before doing something majorly drastic like selling a house. However finances may require that it be done as soon as it can be done. If so, see what advice there is locally about repainting the house and staging it for best resale value.
6) See how the funerals might be most frugally done. For example some churches have a special cloth you can borrow to drape over the casket in liu of flowers. May need to borrow a second one from a second church. Discuss with her and see if most of the flower donations could be donated to something useful such as funeral expenses, college funds for the grandchildren, her grad school expenses, etc. Some religious graveyards prohibit the burial of people who commit suicide. If this is the case, see if she wants both buried someonewhere else, or her mom at the church graveyard and her father elsewhere. If the church will not do a funeral for the father, have the funeral for her mom, and a private burial for her dad.
7) If you have pictures of your friends, making copies of them could be useful to her for a picture display for the funeral.
8) Expect that the experience of grief will be circular and erratic. When you learn about the stages of grief, it is often written about in a linear way, but the experience while somewhat linear in that it gets slowly better over time, is experienced more like a wildly erratic roller coaster. But this roller coaster alternates between heaven and hell and at the present has no off switch.
9) Talk with her about letting you know about how she wants to work on things at any given moment. Does she want to talk with you about how she is feeling, get your help with paperwork or physical work, or have you cook her the favorite meal she used to eat at your house or some combo of these?
10) Does her church include biographies of the deceased as part of the funeral sermon? If so you/she/ your children could be taping or writing up memories of the deceased so they will be available when the pastors get ready to write the funeral sermon.
11) Brainstorm with her over time how she and the extended community might like to memorialize her parents. Would it be useful to have some group grief processing? Would people like to do some community projects in their memory that benefit the community?
Just as I suspected, when the chips are down this community rallies with incredible support and insight. Thank you all.
Too many good suggestions to take the time to thank you individually, but here's an update... We were packed and ready to go when I made the OP. We are still at home. The phone rang constantly with people calling us because they know how close we were to the family. Everyone agreed that we could do the most for the daughter right this minute from here since there are so many people around her. Because of the way things are getting scheduled our physical presence will do more good in the coming days.
The daughter is with a VERY strong and supportive group of people right now. She is taking meds to help her sleep and they are making sure she eats healthy, drinks water, etc. She has talked with the victim's crisis team that is part of the sheriff’s department and will continue counseling. We have talked to her several times and are in constant contact with her care givers. She is staying with a family that is so strong and so caring that she could not be in better hands right now. I get reports from almost everyone who has been to see her and they are all consistent: she is in shock, but lucid and calm. We know she is going to experience all the stages of grieving, but we also know she is a very strong person so we remain hopeful.
The autopsy results will be released today so the Sheriff can make the official report. It will be good to close the book on that part, but we all know what happened. The husband shot the wife multiple times then shot himself. If there was a fortunate aspect to this it is the fact that this all took place in the yard, not in the house. Several neighbors went over to clean up the scene, mow the grass, etc. so there is no visual evidence of what happened. The daughter has not been to the house and we don't know when she will want to go, but there is nothing that requires her to be there.
A little other background: the Dad had throat cancer some years ago and, although he was cancer free, he never really recovered. He was in constant pain and a suicide note he left simply said he was sorry, but he couldn't take the pain any longer. It said nothing about his wife. We are all trying hard to believe that taking her life was not part of his plan. They took a trip a few weeks ago to see her brother, his son and us. Looking back it appears he was on a kind of farewell tour to see the people he was closest to. According to the neighbor who called 911 she heard yelling and fighting and then gun shots. Our best guess is that he was prepared to commit suicide and somehow she got involved and he just snapped. We will never know for sure and it may be purely a case of denial, but it is almost impossible for me to believe that he would plan to harm her. Doing that to his daughter is not something I see him as being capable of.
I am helping the family as much as I can with the nuts and bolts. Both parents had a will which is still sealed, but the attorney who drew it up is part of our circle and could at least tell us there is nothing unexpected in them. This family was very secure financially so the most difficult part will be helping the daughter and her half-brother (from the Dad's first marriage) manage the estate. He and I talked often about our investments and our strategies so I am pretty familiar with what he had where, which makes it easier. Their Dad was a stickler for details so everything is very organized. In recent years he sold off most of the property he owned so now his estate is relatively simple and liquid. The brother is a CFP so very aware of what needs to be done legally. Money isn't really on anyone's mind right now, but it is reassuring to know that it won't be an issue.
The daughter's best friend has taken over her cell phone and facebook account to keep things from getting too overwhelming. She also took down the Mom's facebook account so someone who does not know what happened won't post something that could be awkward or painful later.
The whole group, including me, seems to be moving past the denial and shock of first receiving the news. I can feel a sense of anger in myself and can see signs of it in DW and I can hear some of it in the voices of the others. We all know, or think we know, why suicide was an option he considered, but the 'why did he take her' question is on the tip of everyone's tongue. We will never know for sure. That is hard.
Thank you all for so much kindness and for letting me write this all out as a way to help process what is going on. I sincerely appreciate it.
Wow, Gregg. Your story is powerful. None of us knows with certainty how we or others will act under the kind of duress you report from this dear family. My goodness. I am holding them all in the Light. You, too...
Survivors of Suicide is a wonderful, national model of professionally facilitated peer support. It is for the surviving family & friends, and I know this is not the only circumstance of two dying in such a way. I encourage you to contact SOS, and consider going, for yourselves as well as being a model for others who may not have the wherewithal to seek this out.
I attended some SOS meetings many years ago as the primary support for a dear friend who lost her chronically ill sister to suicide. It was a very healing experience, & I recommend it wholeheartedly.
Here is the link to the national website:
http://www.survivorsofsuicide.com/
Thanks for the update, Gregg. Given the situation, it sounds like things are working out as well as they can. It's good that you can spend some time with the daughter later, when the situation gets older and people go back to their regular lives. It's sad that constant pain and loss apparently drove your friend to consider this end...
Gardenarian
9-10-12, 2:40pm
It sounds like the situation is being handled as well as possible. Bless you for being there for the daughter. I'm so sorry that this tragedy has come to your community.
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