Emergency Funds

[rodeosweetheart]

What kind of emergency funds do y'all have? We are trying to follow the Dave Ramsay program and are working on our emergency funds. I know some of what we are talking about is non-emergency, but we are currently at 4 separate funds, I guess-

1500 "family funeral fund" since we have aging ill family members and may need to go at a moment's notice. IRonically, this has been depleted twice in the past year for young friends of the family in their 20's :(

5000 true emergency fund for "true emergencies"--this was depleted last year for the tax emergency that we did not know we had :|(

6500 not really an emergency but a year of car insurance plus medical deductibles , luckily not depleted this past year but yes, depleted in 4 out of last 10 years

month to month living expenses--we want a year but currently have around 6 months, if we can live on 2500 a month, which has proven difficult, but that is what we want to plan for here on out since that is doable as we age, with social security and retirement.
We should be able to live on 2500 a month, right?

Anyway, we have actually never had these all at the same time and are feeling like we want to keep a buffer between us and the wolf, so that;s where we are at now, as of yesterday:cool:

What do you guys do about emergency funds?

Do you keep one account? ours are spread around.

WE wanted to ladder cds for the 6 month one, but now that we finally have one, there are no cds to ladder that make any sense! But that was our long term plan, to double that 6 month to a year and have them mature each month, in case we lose our jobs, which could certainly happen.

[SteveinMN]

We treat it as one big pile even though it is spread out over savings accounts, money markets, and CDs. Courtesy of our short sale and my leaving full-time employment, we aren't going to have decent credit numbers for a few years, so we function either on existing credit or cash. We've got around 60K readily available, but that's for emergencies (plane fare for funerals, major insurance deductibles [car deductible is $1K], other sudden expenses) and for capital expenditures (furnace or appliance replacement, eventual window replacement, eventual car replacement, etc.). There's an unsecured LoC, too, should we choose to exercise it, but that's more peace of mind than a real source of funds. We'd like the emergency fund to last forever, of course, but its realistic life span is the next 9 years or so until our credit rebounds and we can start drawing from pensions/annuities/SS.

[awakenedsoul]

Mine varies with the time of year. Right now I'm at the low end. I have six months of living expenses. In another couple of months, it will go back up, and I will have two years of living expenses. (That's bare bones, not actual.) I keep it all in an ING Orange account. I withdraw what I need monthly. I have high deductibles, too. I don't have separate accounts for those. I've been thinking of organizing sub accounts, but for the past two years, keeping it together has worked for me. I pay my property taxes, home insurance, and car insurance early and in a lump sum. Those are my big yearly bills. I budget in for one large home repair each year, and arrange at pay for that at the end of the year. I don't use my car much, so I don't see myself needing to buy another one. I take the bus and bike as much as possible.
I have donated my body to research when I die. They pay for funeral expenses and everything involved. I believe the name of the company is Research for Life.

[rodeosweetheart]

Wow, you guys rock. Steve, I am thinking we probably do not have enough, since it sounds like we are in same age range with respect to retirement. ApatheticNoMore, I really admire your ability to budget for a year like that. Hmm. I am going to have to think about whether we could do something similar--maybe have the emergency funds, and then have a"living fund" and stock it for a year, so we are not living paycheck to paycheck.

How do you not live paycheck to paycheck though, unless you have FI already.

We want to save for a larger house, though, so need a cash stash for that.

Thanks for the good ideas.

[awakenedsoul]

Wow, you guys rock. Steve, I am thinking we probably do not have enough, since it sounds like we are in same age range with respect to retirement. ApatheticNoMore, I really admire your ability to budget for a year like that. Hmm. I am going to have to think about whether we could do something similar--maybe have the emergency funds, and then have a"living fund" and stock it for a year, so we are not living paycheck to paycheck.

How do you not live paycheck to paycheck though, unless you have FI already.

We want to save for a larger house, though, so need a cash stash for that.

Thanks for the good ideas.

My house and car are paid off, and I have no debt. I planned on working until at least my seventies, but teaching ballet and yoga is not lucrative in this economy. (Well for me, anyway.) Instead, I switched to farming and living on very little. At the same time, I started receiving money each year from a trust. It's kind of like having a second income. I feel like I'm a stay at home mom with no kids or husband! I ran the numbers, though, and it really is cheaper. It's actually much cheaper, and it's consistent. If something changes, I'll go back to work. By staying home and doing everything myself and cooking and baking from scratch, I save $10,000. a year.
My father was VERY disciplined with money he inherited, and he says that I don't have to worry about my retirement. But, I know that anything can happen, so I don't plan on it. I've studied people who have retired early, and most of them just live on very little, and in inexpensive locations.
I'm in So California, and I spent $20,000. this year. If I had to, I could probably live on $12,000. a year. When I was working, I needed much more. I've lived paycheck to paycheck, too. I also had cc debt. Paying that off has freed up a lot of energy and money. I just don't need much now.

[Tussiemussies]

We treat it as one big pile even though it is spread out over savings accounts, money markets, and CDs. Courtesy of our short sale and my leaving full-time employment, we aren't going to have decent credit numbers for a few years, so we function either on existing credit or cash. We've got around 60K readily available, but that's for emergencies (plane fare for funerals, major insurance deductibles [car deductible is $1K], other sudden expenses) and for capital expenditures (furnace or appliance replacement, eventual window replacement, eventual car replacement, etc.). There's an unsecured LoC, too, should we choose to exercise it, but that's more peace of mind than a real source of funds. We'd like the emergency fund to last forever, of course, but its realistic life span is the next 9 years or so until our credit rebounds and we can start drawing from pensions/annuities/SS.


My house and car are paid off, and I have no debt. I planned on working until at least my seventies, but teaching ballet and yoga is not lucrative in this economy. (Well for me, anyway.) Instead, I switched to farming and living on very little. At the same time, I started receiving money each year from a trust. It's kind of like having a second income. I feel like I'm a stay at home mom with no kids or husband! I ran the numbers, though, and it really is cheaper. It's actually much cheaper, and it's consistent. If something changes, I'll go back to work. By staying home and doing everything myself and cooking and baking from scratch, I save $10,000. a year.
My father was VERY disciplined with money he inherited, and he says that I don't have to worry about my retirement. But, I know that anything can happen, so I don't plan on it. I've studied people who have retired early, and most of them just live on very little, and in inexpensive locations.
I'm in So California, and I spent $20,000. this year. If I had to, I could probably live on $12,000. a year. When I was working, I needed much more. I've lived paycheck to paycheck, too. I also had cc debt. Paying that off has freed up a lot of energy and money. I just don't need much now.


Wow, awakened soul, you really have achieved a lot and it sounds like you are in a great financial place. Do you do large scale farming?

How do you manage to live on so little a year?
Thanks...

[lhamo]

My DH's job has a significant amount of instability underlying it, related to big-picture political things he has absolutely no control over. That combined with my natural worrywort/fear of becoming a bag lady tendencies means we have a much larger than average liquid cash reserve. At the moment it is about 3x our annual expenses -- everything including the luxuries that we could cut back on. Yeah, I know -- we could probably be getting much better returns on it if we had it in the market. But I don't feel comfortable having less than a year's expenses each in Chinese currency and US$ -- the Chinese currency reserves is to continue to fund our living expenses here if DH's job were to disappear. The US$ reserves is to have something to fall back on if we had to get out of China quickly.

For those that think this is insane, I'll just say that your perspective changes a lot when you live overseas in a developing/politically volotile country. A friend/former colleague just had to evacuate from Tunisia with her kids due to the unrest there. I know from previous conversations with her that her finances are kind of shakey (going through a divorce with little savings and a fair amount of debt). I hope the State Department will keep paying her salary and for their evacuation-related causes while they can't go back -- but in our case it is unlikely either my DH's employer or mine would be willing/able to do that for more than a couple of weeks at most. We have family we could stay with both here and in the US, but a long-term absence from China and being unable to do our China-based jobs would put us under a lot of pressure. So a hefty amount in liquid savings helps me sleep better at night.

lhamo

[rosarugosa]

We keep our savings in one account, although I keep track of individual "buckets" on a spreadsheet. I vacillate between pride and disgust when it comes to our savings/e-fund. We have little saved for our ages (early fifties) because we never even thought about saving money (what, you mean like have money and not buy stuff with it???) until 2006 when we opened our ING account. We were pretty foolish for a lot of years, but I'm glad we finally came to our senses. Since we now live primarily on my income, we really should have more in the way of reserves, and we are driving a 17-year-old car, need a new roof and some other home repairs. The big car repair expediture last week increased my resolve to bolster our savings, and I believe DH is also on board with this.

[artist]

I am also following Dave Ramsey's plan. We are on BS #5 We have two funds. One is our fully funded emergency fund of 3-6 months of living expenses. The other is not really an emergency fund, but more of a sinking fund. It is used for things like medical/dental copayments, non-routine vet bills, car repairs and home repairs.

The sinking fund is not used for known and planned expenses like gardening stuff, home improvement etc... This if or real repairs that must be done for the integrity of the house (like repairing the roof and chimney last month). It pays for dental fillings and ER copays (we plan for routine copays) etc...

[SteveinMN]

Steve, I am thinking we probably do not have enough, since it sounds like we are in same age range with respect to retirement.
Not quite 55 for us (how did that happen? :0! )

Y'know, right along with "What is the purpose of life?", one of life's great (first-world) questions is "Will we have enough?" So many retirement calculators and financial "experts" just blurt out a figure (usually upwards of a million dollars) without giving any thought to how people actually live. What makes it harder/more interesting is what we discover along the way. In three months of what has been semi-retirement for me, I've learned: I spent a lot of money while I was working that I don't have to/want to spend now; I cast purchases differently ("$100 tickets to the fundraiser? Hmm, that's another month of insurance or two tanks of fuel for the car." I still may say OK to the tickets, but i've thought about it in more-real terms); and, interestingly, living frugally has given me a luxury most people cannot afford -- the ability to leave a job that was eating me alive. I can't speak to the discoveries we'll make down the road -- medically, economically, etc. We may have to spend some $$ remodeling if we can't make it down the stairs anymore to the laundry room. We may be driving only one car in the future -- or maybe only one of us will be able to drive. It's hard to "future-proof" and be sure we'll have enough.


How do you not live paycheck to paycheck though, unless you have FI already.
I think discipline is involved. We're not impulsive people. While we consider the thoughts of others in our actions, we don't need to buy or have stuff to gain their approval or respect. Sometimes it requires making hard choices: a person may like living in Springfield, but if their job/financial situation does not leave them the money to live in Springfield, they have to move or earn more or do without other things -- or do what most people seem to do -- put it on credit. And I think there's a huge dollop of luck involved. No major illnesses, no "special needs" children, no natural disasters, ending up in an in-demand career with good pay (and not in the field in which I got my college degree), buying houses (well, most of them) at the right time and place. Louis Pasteur said, "Chance favors the prepared mind", so something is required of us. But as I look at my life, sometimes the most unlikely events and connections had a surprising influence.

[awakenedsoul]

Wow, awakened soul, you really have achieved a lot and it sounds like you are in a great financial place. Do you do large scale farming?

How do you manage to live on so little a year?

Thanks...

Thanks Tussiemussies. I really did a u turn with my life when I first received the trust money. It made me feel sick because the first year so much of it went towards paying off debt. I resolved not to get into debt again, and cut up my credit cards. My "farm" is a mini version, but it's very productive. Being home, I just don't need much. My clothes are fine, my car is well maintained, my house is 567 square feet, and ideal for retirement. I watched as my brothers bought $800,000. homes at the height of the market. Fortunately, I tracked home prices back in 1998 and bought this one for $89,500. It was an eyesore, and nobody wanted it, but I saw the potential. I'm good with landscaping and decorating, and I bought most of what I needed at the Salvation Army. I ride my bike most of the time, or take the bus. I shop at Costco and grow as much food as I can. My hobbies are cheap: knitting, reading library books, hiking, and yoga. (I do that at home.)
I do miss the social aspect of work. But, I realize now that I enjoyed performing much more than my last years of teaching. I may work on some books on teaching as a way to channel that energy and knowledge. (Without having to deal with difficult personalities, etc...)

My grandfather purchased land way back when that is being developed. I learned from he and my father to delay gratification. I drive a Kia Rio that I bought used at Enterprise Rent a Car for $6,000. I got a discount because my brother is a district manager there. I live in a working class neighborhood. I guess you would say that financially, I'm very conservative. I don't take big risks. I protect what I have and work slowly and methodically towards my goals. I don't have gadgets. I don't even have a dishwasher. I just don't need all that stuff...

lhamo,
Your plan sounds very smart to me. Cash heavy. It's wise.

[rodeosweetheart]

I am learning so much from your replies, and thank you so much! Llamo, your post really hit home with the variety of situtations that we can face. Obviously, no one size fits all. Steve, we are a year older than you are, and still working at the paycheck jobs. We have had some major illness issues in the past that have taken a lot out of us financially, but we have recovered and there is no use crying over spilt milk. Luckily, it has been 3 years since I was last hospitalized, so hopefully, we can stay on a winning streak there. APN, we have adopted many of the same strategies that you have, and although we sold our farm to get out of debt, we are trying to figure out a way to go back to a farm and get a larger house, without going back into debt. We have found 800 sq feet to be too tight when we both work at home all day. I admire all of you guys who function in small spaces, but we have been having a hard tme with it.

I really, really do not want a mortgage again. I love not having a mortgage. Will have to figure out a way to sell this house and buy another one without a mortgage, bigger, with land again.

When we sold our little farmhouse, we got out of debt and we went to a cheaper part of the country. Now, our kids want us to move closer, back to more expensive utilities, taxes, etc. We miss them and we probably will move, but jeesh, I hate re-entering the ratrace. And I am not going to raid my emergency fund to do it.

Just wish it was not so apparent that a prudent reserve would be x2 of what we have. . .

[awakenedsoul]

Would it be cheaper just to visit them? I think it's great that you were able to sell your farmhouse and get out of debt. Many people here can't sell their homes. I'm sure there's another way. By not touching your emergency fund, you will be able to add to it. A lot of people use it for non emergencies.

Whenever I feel like my financial goals seem unreachable, I tell myself, "They're only numbers." If it's cheaper to stay there, I would stay. Low expenses over the long haul are what make retirement easier. I wouldn't let the amounts intimidate you. You have the habits and discipline to do it. You may receive a windfall. I found that when I had debt, everything broke, and things went wrong. Now that I have savings, I can organize, plan, and research. You're in a good place.

[rodeosweetheart]

Would it be cheaper just to visit them? I think it's great that you were able to sell your farmhouse and get out of debt. Many people here can't sell their homes. I'm sure there's another way. By not touching your emergency fund, you will be able to add to it. A lot of people use it for non emergencies.

Whenever I feel like my financial goals seem unreachable, I tell myself, "They're only numbers." If it's cheaper to stay there, I would stay. Low expenses over the long haul are what make retirement easier. I wouldn't let the amounts intimidate you. You have the habits and discipline to do it. You may receive a windfall. I found that when I had debt, everything broke, and things went wrong. Now that I have savings, I can organize, plan, and research. You're in a good place.


Awakened, please forgive me for getting your name wrong in the last three posts. This is what comes of working without my glasses.

I am really grappling with what you are saying here, as this is what my instincts have been telling me, but then there is such a strong drive to get back to the Midwest with my kids. You are absolutely right, that we are in an unusually good spot right now with respect to living expenses. And since we have been doing Dave Ramsay, which is what got us to sell the farm, pay off the debt, buy the foreclosure house, and set up the EF, we have really come to appreciate what you say, that "low expenses over the long haul are what make retirement easier" and especially true that the farther we have gotten from the debt, the more the money has come in to meet the needs. We have had to really reorganize our thinking. But maybe we will be able to sell this place and move to something similar closer to them.

Or maybe we can be satisfied with visiting more. Sigh.

[lhamo]

rodeosweetheart,

Are there slightly less expensive areas near your kids/grandkids that are within a reasonable drive? My family lives in the Seattle area, and buying a house near either my brother (in an upscale neighborhood in the city limits) or my sister/mom (in a rural area where what is available is either acreage or waterfront, both = $$$) is more than we are probably going to want to pay, at least at the beginning if we move back without steady jobs. So I have started looking at less expensive communities that are within about an hour's drive of both (they are about an hour's drive apart already). Driving back and forth would be a pain, but less of a pain than a 13-18 hour plane ride! ANd if we lived in a cheaper community, we could retire early, or at least semi-retire. Obviously this only works if you are ok with weekend visits -- if you are planning to help with daily childcare or something, then it is another situation. But there too, maybe there are options worth considering -- like one part of the family buying a duplex or triplex and the other part renting, etc.

Anyway, I hear you about the pains of being far from family. that is actually the biggest downside of our current arrangement, and something that weighs on us very heavily.

Basically there are no easy answers. If there were we all would have figured it out by now!

lhamo

[rodeosweetheart]

rodeosweetheart,

Are there slightly less expensive areas near your kids/grandkids that are within a reasonable drive. . . So I have started looking at less expensive communities that are within about an hour's drive of both (they are about an hour's drive apart already). Driving back and forth would be a pain, but less of a pain than a 13-18 hour plane ride!

lhamo

Yeah, we have been looking at place within 2 hours of the one son. The other son would like us closer to him (that's nice!) but he is in an area that would not be as good for us with respect to the kind of work that we pick up, basically adjuncting and more long term growth ideas for any farming business, which our long term dream is to have some of that replace the current jobs, at a very small level, but still at least be able to grow our own food and sell at farmers markets.

This is all close to where we used to live, but having looked at houses all last year, and just lost 2 houses in the inspection period, we are now revisiting the decision.

These two lost houses (see bacteria in well thread) have made me really rethink why the heck we would get another mortgage.

It is $$$ w/in 2 hours of them. My thoughts are maybe to look w/in 4 hours of them, and where there is train service to the city where they live? It would cut down on seeing them, but still better than the 2 day drive we have now, and we might be able to get 10 acres up that way. Closer to the city, it is more like 3-5 acres, and a big fat mortgage, and work til we croak. And we are 55, so that's a lot of working.

Does 4 hours seem way too far for all you younger folks raising kids? We have already not seen them for one Christmas in the past 6 years, for example.:(

They want us close by, but they aren't the duplex kind. They have their pied a terre in the city and they will stay there for her job.

I wish they'd all move down here, LOL. Taxes are cheap, pace is nice, and climate is terrific.

On the other hand, I miss our old friends up there, too, and it is awesome that my kids are still in touch with friends from high school, really have a solid support system.

Aggh.

[try2bfrugal]

Yeah, we have been looking at place within 2 hours of the one son. The other son would like us closer to him (that's nice!) but he is in an area that would not be as good for us with respect to the kind of work that we pick up, basically adjuncting and more long term growth ideas for any farming business, which our long term dream is to have some of that replace the current jobs, at a very small level, but still at least be able to grow our own food and sell at farmers markets.

This is all close to where we used to live, but having looked at houses all last year, and just lost 2 houses in the inspection period, we are now revisiting the decision.

These two lost houses (see bacteria in well thread) have made me really rethink why the heck we would get another mortgage.

It is $$$ w/in 2 hours of them. My thoughts are maybe to look w/in 4 hours of them, and where there is train service to the city where they live? It would cut down on seeing them, but still better than the 2 day drive we have now, and we might be able to get 10 acres up that way. Closer to the city, it is more like 3-5 acres, and a big fat mortgage, and work til we croak. And we are 55, so that's a lot of working.

Does 4 hours seem way too far for all you younger folks raising kids? We have already not seen them for one Christmas in the past 6 years, for example.:(

They want us close by, but they aren't the duplex kind. They have their pied a terre in the city and they will stay there for her job.

I wish they'd all move down here, LOL. Taxes are cheap, pace is nice, and climate is terrific.

On the other hand, I miss our old friends up there, too, and it is awesome that my kids are still in touch with friends from high school, really have a solid support system.

Aggh.

I think it is great that your kids want you close by. You have to do what works for you but I personally would make living near my adult kids the top priority over acreage. For us I have looked at the ROI on growing our own food and I think we would easily make more money just doing some temp work here and there or maybe some of the money making ideas at places like Fatwallet and Slickdeals. For the two of us if I really watch the sales and cook from scratch we can eat for a few dollars a day each so there just isn't a lot of savings for us to grow our own food, especially after paying more for a bigger piece of land, seeds, water and other gardening supplies.

For us I did an ROI chart on the different money making and money savings ideas I have on a chart and growing our own food was one of the least profitable budget boosters after factoring in hours of work.

These people seem to be able to grow all of their own food on a very small piece of land so maybe you could do something like that and be near your kids, too. -

http://urbanhomestead.org/

(http://urbanhomestead.org/)

[awakenedsoul]

Awakened, please forgive me for getting your name wrong in the last three posts. This is what comes of working without my glasses.

I am really grappling with what you are saying here, as this is what my instincts have been telling me, but then there is such a strong drive to get back to the Midwest with my kids. You are absolutely right, that we are in an unusually good spot right now with respect to living expenses. And since we have been doing Dave Ramsay, which is what got us to sell the farm, pay off the debt, buy the foreclosure house, and set up the EF, we have really come to appreciate what you say, that "low expenses over the long haul are what make retirement easier" and especially true that the farther we have gotten from the debt, the more the money has come in to meet the needs. We have had to really reorganize our thinking. But maybe we will be able to sell this place and move to something similar closer to them.

Or maybe we can be satisfied with visiting more. Sigh.

Well, if you don't sell right away, you can visit. I'm sure it'll work out. I visit my parents two of three times a year. We meet in Carmel. (Heaven!) I drive 6 hours to get there, they drive 2 and a half. I'm able to grow plenty of food on a 7,000 square foot lot. That's about a third of an acre. I plant my fruit trees closer together, and have a couple vegetable gardens. It seems like you could have both...I'm surprised you want so much land. I have trouble keeping up with my small plot.

It's great that the Dave Ramsey method has worked so well for you. I stick with it, too. It's just eliminated so much stress and drama from my life. I do not like moving. There are positives and negatives to my situation, but mainly it's very inexpensive to live here. Growing food has really been a psychological boost for me. I've found that it saves me a lot of money, gas, and time. It's a certain type of person who wants to homestead. Food is my biggest expense. Each year I see that amount going down, and it's encouraging.

[JaneV2.0]

rodeosweetheart,

Are there slightly less expensive areas near your kids/grandkids that are within a reasonable drive? My family lives in the Seattle area, and buying a house near either my brother (in an upscale neighborhood in the city limits) or my sister/mom (in a rural area where what is available is either acreage or waterfront, both = $$$) is more than we are probably going to want to pay, at least at the beginning if we move back without steady jobs. So I have started looking at less expensive communities that are within about an hour's drive of both (they are about an hour's drive apart already). ...
lhamo

Perhaps I could interest you in a nice ramshackle house on the Eastside? http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/artists/snoozer/mafia.gif

[try2bfrugal]

One more thought Rodeosweetheart - I live in Northern California where home prices are really expensive yet I have friends who live just fine on not too much more than a single, high end Social Security check each month. I asked them if they ever considered moving somewhere cheaper and they told me that their houses are paid for and they fixed the houses up to be in good shape before they retired. They felt that with a mortgage free life they just didn't have a lot of expenses and would not save that much by moving and they would rather stay and be around their kids and grandkids. I know one sees her kids and grandkids almost every day.

[ApatheticNoMore]

One more thought Rodeosweetheart - I live in Northern California where home prices are really expensive yet I have friends who live just fine on not too much more than a single, high end Social Security check each month. I asked them if they ever considered moving somewhere cheaper and they told me that their houses are paid for and they fixed the houses up to be in good shape before they retired. They felt that with a mortgage free life they just didn't have a lot of expenses and would not save that much by moving and they would rather stay and be around their kids and grandkids. I know one sees her kids and grandkids almost every day.

It doesn't cost that much to be retired with a paid off mortgage in CA for a house bought decades ago. Property taxes will never really adjust upward that much thanks to prop 13, and the social security income unlike wages will be entirely exempt from state taxes (that may be the case in most states). It's the children and grandchildren who should move!

[awakenedsoul]

I'm in California, too. I feel the same way. Proposition 13 does keep the property taxes low. Mine are $1,400 a year. Many new people in my neighborhood are picking up foreclosures really cheaply. (In CA, property taxes are based on the purchase price and can only go up 2% a year.) They are fixing them up and have gotten great deals. My parents think a developer will come through here in the future and knock these small homes down and build large ones. My plumber said the same thing. He thinks if I keep this house, I'll get $500,000. from a developer someday. I really like this little 1940's cottage, it's so inexpensive to heat and cool. But if that ever happens, I might take the money and move. I wouldn't mind a cabin in the mountains or in Big Sur.

I was going to say the same thing as Apathetic No More. How about the kids move to you?

[rodeosweetheart]

I was going to say the same thing as Apathetic No More. How about the kids move to you?

Northern California sounds wonderful. My other son lives in Oregon, but that seemed WAY more expensive than the MIdwest, but low taxes. The grandchild is in Midwest, and that is where my kids grew up, and I wish they would move to the South, but unfortunately, I am the only Southerner in the family, and culturally, they would not want to move down here. My husband's family is in MIdwest, too, so he really, really wants to move back. I'm the only one who really wants to be where we are.

Thanks for the great ideas on the food and space to grow. We used to have 75 acres, and really miss having some land. We don't need that much, but until we can't work a place, we want to go back to a property with the freedom that a few acres brings. That's just the way we are wired, I guess.