Why would people feel hostile/threatened by simple living?

[oldhat]

I came across this article on simple living (http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/29/living/living-happily-with-less/index.html) on the CNN site. Not much in it will be news to the denizens of this list (though it's good publicity for the cause).

What interested me more than the article was the evident anger of so many of the comments. A recurring theme seems to be that because so many people live lives of involuntary simplicity (i.e., poverty), voluntary simplicity is necessarily some kind of self-indulgent, holier-than-thou yuppie exercise. I haven't encountered this attitude too much personally, perhaps because I tend not to talk about my lifestyle except to close friends. I wonder how widespread it is among the general public. Have folks here encountered much of this kind of hostility?

[flowerseverywhere]

I just think some people feel that they can say whatever they want anonymously in internet comments, fortunately most people filter what they say in person to your face.

I do know that when I worked full time in an office I would occasionally get comments on how cheap I was, because I faithfully bought my lunch, bought coffee from home in a thermos, and would never go out for Friday happy hour, all due to money. I also had the oldest car in the parking lot. I was surprised when I left the office for good in my mid fifties that so many people did not see the connection. A lot of them thought I had won the lottery or gotten an inheritance. That connection between living way below your means and being able to fund an early retirement was not there. Of course I was of the generation that got good interest even in a savings account in the bank and also beneffitted from the crazy stock market gains that came year after year, but the basic principles will still get you far ahead of those that spend every penny.

There are a lot of people now who are hurting and for good reason. They did everything right, bought modest houses with 20% down, don't haunt the malls etc. yet have been downsized and are working for much less they used to or are not able to get a job at all and they are willing to work.

It is very difficult, though, when you see people who are poor who smoke cigarettes, have better cellphones, tv and cable service than you do for instance when you are going to work every day wondering how to pay your modest bills. Even though you only see a tiny fraction of why they are where they are, the rush to judgement is very common on both sides.

[AmeliaJane]

I think there is a certain group of people who will find implicit criticism of their choices anytime someone makes a different choice, no matter how clear the other person makes that there is no universal judgment implied. We just discussed this in terms of vegetarianism, but parenting choices are another common flashpoint--politics also, of course, but even things as commonplace as television and movie preferences. Part of this is just the human condition, I think, but there is also something about our current age of individualism and communication on the Internet that brings it out more.

Then there is another group of people who would really like to have more (money, stuff, security whatever) but can't for whatever reason, whether their own choices or bad luck. So I'm sure that it is hard to see someone talking about giving up willingly the things that they would give a lot to have--and there are all kinds of complicated emotions tied up in the sense of lack.

And then it is true that a lot of the personal finance advice, particularly on the web, is written from a position of financial security. (Which is why, I'm sure, those writers feel like they have proven success to share with their readers) I was just reading another blog that was pointing this out, and in fact the Mr. Money Mustache blog (to his credit) just specifically published a reader case study from a lower income family because so many of his readers are fairly high salary.

I have a feeling this is the kind of reaction that comes out more in the anonymity of the Web.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I think the link between A and B is not always clear. Like if you told someone: drop you gym membership and you can put an extra $30 a month in retirement accounts the link between A and B is utterly clear, transactional in fact, $30 less in this pot and more in that. Which one is better is debatable, mostly depends on if you actually use the gym membership I think! :D

But if you tell someone, cut back your spending and you can earn a living taking part time consulting work and doing consulting. No, there's a whole bunch of missing C, D, E, F, steps there. For instance lots of skillsets that may be marketable skillsets (ie the person is employable - even that is something in this economy) don't so easily translate to that type of switch. It's less sometimes that there is no fix but that there is no easy quick fix, and yet people feel almost marketed quick fixes which mostly don't work. The truth is sadder, slower, more humble, that if you really want things to be different by your own power, we're not all easy cases, it might be a long row to hoe, a long search and/or a long effort (searching alternatives is often just as important as effort).

But tell someone have 100 things, and the house will be somewhat cleaner is yea, very true, and very appealing right now!!!! :)

[leslieann]

oldhat, thanks for the link. Nice to see Miss Minimalist in there....she used to frequent these fora in their previous incarnation. (wow, can you say "incarnation" for a virtual community? )

Maybe the proper term would be in the previous iteration.

Anyway, I used to like her posts.

[awakenedsoul]

I think when people are struggling, they become negative. All kinds of issues can come up: deservability, discipline, deprivation, etc...Many are depressed and don't see a way out. So much of it is attitude. I enjoy cutting my expenses and having money in savings. My neighbor is a workaholic. She lives in a pretty little house, has a new SUV and a new van, 15 cats, (she's a professional animal trainer,) very high expenses and huge electric bills. She just doesn't see the connection. She told me that she wants security and doesn't have it. I don't say anything, but I can see that she could easily live on far less...I do. She's around people who overspend. So much of our finances comes to down to habits. Most people don't track their spending and face the music. It's so eye opening to see where you are leaking money.

[bunnys]

I think when so many people are caught in that constant media onslaught of buy, buy, buy and never be happy with what you have it's very difficult to escape it and frustrating to see people who reject that idea.

I can't tell you how much happier I am for having gotten rid of my TV 2 years ago. I feel so free now because I don't have to look at those constant advertising cues that my life simply isn't good enough because I'm not consuming nearly enough.

Now I'm consuming what I want to consume. Currently I'm excited about the prospect of buying a crank apple peeler and a new heating pad.

Two weeks ago it was an immersion blender and a new shaper undergarment but I recently decided I wouldn't use the immersion blender and I have a perfectly ok shaper so I don't need a second.

If I were watching constant ads I'd want so many more things.

[Dhiana]

Comments have often been made about the fact we rent an apartment (800sqm) that does not use the full housing allowence allowed by my husband's company.

Most employees obtain the largest place possible up to the limit of the allowence and are laughing at our choice. If they want to take all that additional time and money to clean/heat/cool that much extra space they are welcome to it.

[try2bfrugal]

I can't tell you how much happier I am for having gotten rid of my TV 2 years ago. I feel so free now because I don't have to look at those constant advertising cues that my life simply isn't good enough because I'm not consuming nearly enough.

Even on regular TV or movies without the commercial breaks I have been very aware lately of how often the actors are often shown shopping, going to expensive restaurants, taking expensive trips or living above their means for the kinds of careers / income they are supposed to have.

[puglogic]

There are a lot of whiners in the world, and in an anonymous forum like CNN they'll be the first to lash out against anything they feel makes them look bad. They'll all crow about how their situation is unique and different, "Sure, it's easy for HER to do that, she had X and Y and Z." Well, I've got news for them: Simple living is not the path of least resistance; it takes giving up the status quo, giving up the habit of self-medicating with purchases, and using creativity to craft a life based on quality rather than on "how many overtime hours can I work to afford this iPad." I really hate that kind of "I can't do what they can because (insert excuse)", and so I rarely talk about my lifestyle except here, or if someone asks me a direct question about something. Strangely, I'm finding that more and more of our social circle are also simple livers, people choosing to live without debt, scaling back to a one-income household to raise a child, etc. It's comforting to know that there are enough of us out there to HAVE a social circle containing simple folk...

[herbgeek]

I have found that in general, most people don't really think about their decisions, they do things because people around them are doing them or people they see on TV are doing them. All your friends are getting married? That's what we should do too. Everyone is having a baby? Maybe we should do that too. So and So has a new house? We need a new house. That's the safe choice, no one can criticize you for doing what everyone else is doing, right? ;) As humans, we want to be part of a larger group. Its risky to stand out and be different.

Its not so much that an active choice was made, so much as going with the flow. So its threatening when a counter action is in front of them- because they now have to accept that there WAS a choice that they made, even if that choice was to do what everyone else around them was doing. Or they are in denial that they could have made an alternate choice, or they dismiss the alternate choice as not being reasonable for them. We even see it on this board as well, when posters ask for budget help but then dismiss every option presented. A number of people are really reluctant to accept responsibility for their lives and their choices. This is not something I really understand, but I see it all around me. People don't get the connection between choices made and the results of those choices. So if you see someone doing something different than the norm, it forces you to face the idea that YOU could have done things differently. You can feel remorse for not choosing, or you can deny you had a choice, or you can be angry that you were unaware you could have made a choice. None of these are comfortable emotions, and people don't like to sit with uncomfortable emotions, so they will do what is necessary to make themselves feel better.

[SteveinMN]

herbgeek, I think you've nailed it! Those are thoughts I've had for years; you've expressed them very well. Thank you.

[pinkytoe]

I can't say for sure but I sometimes think those who don't know me well might make assumptions that I have some economic disadvantage. I drive a 17 yo car, wear very basic clothing, etc.
Though I could buy three new cars right now for cash, I get a bigger high out of stashing away savings every month. I was talking to one of our admin people recently. She is 62, in poor health and hasn't a clue when or how she will retire - yet she just financed a brand new car for six years. Regarding following the herd, I am watching this with my own dd. Buying house, expensive dog, SUV, vacations, etc. I am sure she thinks I am too frugal, too.

[artist]

Have folks here encountered much of this kind of hostility?

I have. I actually lost a good friendship over it. Much of our friendship was centered around doing things for our sons, who are the same age and at the time both only children. Then around a year into the friendship I wanted off and to find a new path. She watched as we eliminated television from our lives, limited clothing purchases to needs, started doing gift free Christmas and birthdays, focused on faith and family rather than stuff etc... She took it as an attack on how she was raising her son and the choices that they were making for their family. To her we were rejecting those things that she considered important and felt we were judging her and her choices because we saw them as "wrong" because we didn't want those things for our family. Our income levels and family situations were very much the same though her mortgage was less because she lives in the south and I live in New England, so her home is about half the price of mine and bigger in sq footage.

Bottom line was that it made her question values and her perception of what was "success".

[puglogic]

So if you see someone doing something different than the norm, it forces you to face the idea that YOU could have done things differently. You can feel remorse for not choosing, or you can deny you had a choice, or you can be angry that you were unaware you could have made a choice. None of these are comfortable emotions, and people don't like to sit with uncomfortable emotions, so they will do what is necessary to make themselves feel better.

This is a really brilliant way to put it, herbgeek.

Here's to the SLN community, for daring to be different. :cool:

[herbgeek]

Have folks here encountered much of this kind of hostility?

Not so much from strangers, because I give off a don't mess with me vibe, but very much from family.

Got a lot of heat for driving modest cars, and not going away every weekend, and not buying the latest SHINY. We were the last in the family to get cell phones, and a DVD player, and a flat screen TV, though we were the first to get internet access. :laff: My older sister is now starting to make the connection between her constant spending and never having anything for when emergencies invariably come- she's 57 and now driving a modest car.

The most hurtful thing was something that just slipped out of my mother's mouth. She really has never had a filter between what flits in her head and what comes out her mouth. At the time, they did a lot of traveling with friends Joe and Claire, and they were often not that far from us when they traveled through to somewhere else. I asked her why they never stopped in and Mom said " well Joe and Claire's kids all have big beautiful houses..." and at the time we lived in a condo. Mom saw that as something poor people did who couldn't afford a "real" house. What she didn't know that was that at the time, that condo was entirely paid off, and it was highly likely Joe and Claire's kids were mortgaged to the hilt. It still stung.

Now I get a lot of joking asking how I like "retirement". For the last 10 years, my husband and I have taken turns being in the workforce, sometimes by choice, but mostly by circumstances (ie layoffs). I'd really rather be working at the moment but am liking that they are finally putting two and two together and recognizing that our frugal choices have allowed us this luxury and I haven't had to take a survival job just to pay the bills. So though its said jokingly, there's an air of admiration behind it, or at least, that's what I'm choosing to believe. :laff:

[JaneV2.0]

I think it's the holier-than-thou aura that often hangs over the enlightened. :idea:

Most of us in my tiny circle practice simplicity in one way or another--working little or not at all, driving ancient beaters, making a game of bargain hunting, bicycling or walking, cooking whole foods, raising pampered chickens, but it's more because we were raised in frugal families, I think, than that we've set out to prove something. How others choose to live? Not really my business.

[awakenedsoul]

Great post, herbgeek. I was chatting with my neigbor the other day, and it made me realize that she is in a totally different space than I am. She made a point to tell me that one of the men in the neighborhood "does well." He works in construction in the movies. I'm not interested in him, but I could tell she thought that if I had a man to pay for everything, I probably wouldn't take the bus, ride my bike, or grow my own food. I like doing this. I'm not interested in him. I guess she thinks I buy things secondhand because I can't afford new. I prefer to buy what I can at the Salvation Army. I get good quality bargains there. In this neighborhood, which is working class, people still buy expensive cars and off road vehicles. I just see all of that as a waste of money. She told me that she quit her job. (I think she forgot that she'd told me last year she was laid off. I didn't mention it.) She was saying that they are paying $50,000. a year for her son's college education. I think she's used to being around people who brag about how much they spend. She also said they'd like to get a one story house for retirement. I agreed, saying that I love my tiny house, because it's so cheap to heat and cool. Where I live, people are still very competitive about money and possessions. There's a lot of copycat behavior. Another woman suggested that I get a foster child. The idea of not being married or having children seems weird to them.

My father would always brag about how many hours my sister in laws work, and how much money they make. He sees that as being successful. I finally asked him, "What's the point, if you are mortgaged to the eyeballs and have a negative net worth?" It just doesn't appeal to me. This is definitely a different path. I like the free time, having a clean house, a beautiful garden, content animals, and a healthy body.

[Gardenarian]

Thanks for posting the article. Great thread everyone!

I feel like I have always been an outsider, and I'm not sure if my attempts to live simply have alienated me from others or if it just the way I am. I do have many fine relationships, but a lot of times I wonder what it's like on my home planet.
:)

[larknm]

AmeliaJane, I'm with you. I think some people relate to others by identifying with them, and that makes them not free to let the others be themselves when it's different. I've definitely gotten negative stuff about how we live. These people all make more than we do but not all make that much more. The most common theme seems to be that we don't do anything, and that means we don't do with them the things that cost money. One friend who forgets is frequently telling me we should go to a string of movies she mentions or restaurants. Recently another friend was giving me complicated directions to her new office where I pay our mortgage payment, then said I could always call her if I got lost. When I told her we don't have cell phones, she was shocked and confused by this. It's like when I told a group of old friends, when they asked, that I had no kids. A silence fell over this fecund group that I felt I had to explain, when really it's just I never wanted to spend my life raising kids. Nor could I have afforded it. People assume we drive to Albuquerque, the town an hour away at the drop of a hat. We don't go there, due to gasoline cost and pollution. Medical workers assume they can tell me to do things that would be regular expenses. It's like they don't know that people live differently from how they do. I feel irritated by it.

[puglogic]

but a lot of times I wonder what it's like on my home planet.
:)

I'd like to visit Planet Gardenarian! I've heard the gardening season is extremely long there :)

[Zoebird]

I had an interesting situation along these lines recently.

I invited an ex-pat american friend and her son over for a play date. they live in the more typical american way, even here -- with a great deal of stuff. that's all fine. it's no big deal to me (i've even gotten over my sister's consumerism).

So we invite them over and I make tea and cut fruit and yogurt dip, and we have our toy minimalism and our tiny house. We have a nice play date and the boys had a good time playing with blocks, rocks, and shells.

Sometime later, through a mutual friend (who should have kept her mouth shut, honestly), I caught wind of her experience of the play date. Instead of a nice time talking about different things of interest (i try to stay to really, really safe topics with everyone -- asking questions and listening mostly) and watching the boys play, and enjoying the view and the rain (otherwise, we would have gone out to the beach), apparently, I'd spent the whole time chastizing her for having too many toys, not feeding her son properly etc.

None of these topics ever came up in conversation. I asked if it was ok for her son to have cut fruit and yogurt dip as a snack before they came, so that I could prepare. When they arrived, DS had gotten out the toys he wanted and engaged the other little boy in a game. We mostly talked about downton abbey, game of thrones, and these two cartoons that I've discovered that I love to watch with DS (Mouk; Frog and Friends -- the first one is about travel and has sweet little lessons, the second one is about feelings. it's really cool.). We talked about books as well, and I loaned her one that I'd gotten from a friend. I also hung a bit of laundry out.

Somehow these things became judgments. It was so strange.

[peggy]

Oh my late MIL was like that. We couldn't mention school, or college, or the kids going to college as she took this as a put down to her lack of schooling. If you were to say something like, "Mary sure makes a good pie" or something like that, she would get all defensive as if you said, 'and your pie stinks!'
Sheesh! It was like dealing with a 5 year old!