View Full Version : To help a family member with $$$, or not... WWYD?
Context:
- I have a 52 year old cousin. He lives in Manhattan. He is a musician/theater person, and has been there "working on his career" since college. He isn't particularly successful at it.
- He has been supported in his efforts, heavily, his entire career by his mother, who funded nearly everything, even though she wasn't well-off herself.
- His mother died 2 years ago. I was the executor of the estate, and in clearing up her finances, discovered the massive extent of the cash flow to my cousin. He had $50k+ in credit card debts, he shopped at the finest stores, ate out at the finest restaurants all the time. His mom was sometimes paying $10k/month to his expenses. Even though she herself was living in a room in her sister's house, and never spending a dime on herself. No worries, that's between her and her son.
- He has no understanding of money, or needing to work for it. It took me forever to close out the estate, simply because I couldn't get him to return phone calls or sign documents. I finally transferred the assets to him about a year ago, enough that he *could* have left in the form I handed them over, and lived prudently off of.
- He's very depressed, still, by his mother's death. He's always been a borderline alcoholic too, probably from his party-till-dawn theater lifestyle, which has definitely taken its toll on his body now that he's in his early 50s.
- The past year, it has been next to impossible to get ahold of him in any fashion. His friends have contacted me concerned that he is now full-blown into alcohol abuse. When I was out in Manhatten in the spring this year, he clearly was in trouble - his hours were odd, his appearance and actions were in line with someone on an alcohol death spiral, he was unreliable, etc.
- He has no medical insurance, and his friends and relatives have been quite unsuccessful in convincing him to see a doctor or therapist about his depression and general health issues.
- Last night, about 3:30am his time, I received a lengthy email from him, after he's been dodging me for months. It contained an incredibly elaborate account of a series of mishaps that has resulted in him needing to ask me for $10,000 because of temporary financial setbacks, along with a complex relation of how he expected to have all sorts of funds coming in "real soon now" to pay it back and get back on his feet. I mean, he even had *business cards* made up, by a friend, so success is right around the corner. (Mind you, he's managed to run through $150k or so in the past year, by my reckoning...)
So, what would you do? His friends and family were to the point this summer of trying to arrange an intervention, but he got wind of it, and hid from us all.
Tough love, deny him easy help, encourage him to move someplace where he can get work and not go insane? Fund him in his attempts to drink himself to death while pretending to have a career?
Gak.
If you've already given him all the assets from the estate, and you would be paying out of your pocket, AND if you suspect he is now a full-blown alcoholic, NO NO NO do NOT give him money. DO NOT.
If he is alcoholic, he is lying about his "temporary" situation just to get the money.
I won't bore with you my own experiences with this type of thing, but let me just say, I could write a book, and I also could be about $150,000 richer.
Don't give to him. You'll only be enabling him.
He would have to prove himself to me before I'd help/support him (in any way) financially. Thumbs-up to tough love.
Added, the old saying, "you can't help someone who isn't willing to help themselves" is so true. Help, starts from within.
Sounds to me like he only wants to be in contact with you when it's convenient for him, or if there is something in it for him. He may be blood, but he's not family.
I vote NO.
I guess i would maybe help pay for a drug rehab stay, with reports from the director all along. Does he have no sisters or brothers? Or is he coming to you simply because you have the deep pockets?
Family issues like this are so hard. On the one hand you don't want to enable destructive lifestyle. On the other hand, he is your cousin, and I'm sure it pains you to see him spiral out of control like this.
I don't envy you your choice. Whatever it is, it probably won't be enough to him, or satisfy everyone. Sorry.
No. He has spent at least 30+ years learning how to manipulate others to get what he wants. He is just trying to add you to his list of "suckers".
I would respond that I am sorry but I cannot provide any financial support. If he needs someone to talk to, be available, but no matter how much you provide, the requests will never ever end.
Gardenarian
9-24-12, 2:27pm
What a difficult situation. My brother is in the same state; infantilized by my mother, and now virtually unemployable. My sister, who is the executor, has decided to give him a monthly stipend if he will go into therapy, or at least work with a career counselor or life coach. She gave the ultimatum a month ago and he has done nothing yet.
"encourage him to move someplace where he can get work and not go insane...?" I think this might be your best option. Anyone can go broke living in Manhattan - though I know many New Yorkers who are fiercely loyal and won't live anywhere else.
Best of luck.
Wow, what a mess! I was taken by the amount he is asking for - $10,000- for goodness sake. A 50 year old who has not motivation to change won't so it will be $$$ down the drain.
Sometimes, people separate themselves from the family byt their choice in behaviour and it is wise to respect their choice for our own wellbeing.
He has already made it very clear to you and others who he is and what he is all about. Don't be fooled by his latest stories.
I would say "sorry, no" - not that that is easy. I expect the $10k would quickly go the way the other $150k went. And then it would be back in square one again.
I think you summed it up well - either you fund his lifestyle, or you don't.
I fear the $10k, at his current burn rate, will get him just another couple of months along, into the dark cold winter season, when his depression will be at its worst. I almost wonder if it is kinder to force the crisis now, while he is still a bit capable.
If I had the $10K to burn, and if it would soothe my future conscience to give him one last chance to get back on his feet, I would make it contingent on several things:
1) that he first go through inpatient rehabilitation for alcohol abuse, and
2) that the 10K will be disbursed in the form of checks directly to his creditors (rent, grocery store gift cards, etc.)
3) that he be clear that this is the last - ever - loan of this kind
Mostly, this would be for you, not him. He will, as you've pointed out, burn through it quickly. If you don't have any feelings about this, then I wouldn't do anything at all. Like Catherine, I have funded alcoholics and addicts into the low six figures in my life, and I understand them painfully well. It is sad to watch them make their dark choices, sadder still if they do not recover, but they are adults and have the right to experience the repercussions of their actions and learn from them.
It is a tough situation, but perhaps better to give some sort of help rather than let him reach rock bottom, which it sounds like could be catastrophic? The possible options I see would be to give him some monetary help, but as sort of an allowance rather than a larger lump sum. And have that contingent of him having some sort of plan to at least try to repay you. And/or have it contingent upon him getting some professional help.
My best opinion, if you don't see him doing something drastic like suicide or becoming a street person, would be to offer money for medical or psychological help only. Some people have to hit bottom before reality hits.
I have a brother who I sometimes see going down a similar path and regardless of how futile it might seem, I can't see myself not trying to help somehow.
Yikes, I just couldn't give up my hard earned money to someone who doesn't know the meaning of hard work and therefore wouldn't truly appreciate it. He has been handed money all of his life and still has little recognition of the value of money or what it takes to earn it.
If he has no trouble asking your for that much money, and considers that the predicament he is in is something he deserves to be helped out of, (as if it wasn't his fault at all), then you can bet he has no expectations of paying you back. After all, he is oblivious to the realities of others people's lives, needs and responsibilities and consider his wants more important. He would simply expect you to not expect the money back because of his needs are so much more important than yours (and always will be).
I see 2 options.
1.) To send him $10,000 would just be enabling him to continue living the life that has got him where he is today and would not solve anything. The way I see it, you can give him the money, which he will not pay back, he will avoid you and it will be the end of your relationship.
2.)Or you can refuse to send him the money, which will probably make him mad and and that will be the end of your relationship.
At least with option #2, you aren't out $10,000.
I really hate to be so negative but there is little about him that says he is knows the value of money or hard work.
O/T but in a similar vein.... BayouBoy and I had a problem with his daughter who wanted to move in with us again (for the 3rd disastrous time), after a yet another nightmare relationship and party lifestyle that we had warned her against (not to mention other huge issues such as dumping her kids on us for days on end while she partied and while we paid all the bills, all the housework and did everything for her children). Plus we live in a 600 sq ft house which is not room enough for 6-7 people. He said "Well I can't just put her out on the street" to which I replied " I see US doing everything to keep her off the street but what is SHE doing to keep herself off the street? Why should WE be doing more for her than she is willing to do for herself?"
And so it is with your cousin... He has no problems asking for your money which you worked and sacrificed to make and save but he is not willing to do the same for himself.
I would have no problem writing him a letter, equally dramatic and fraught with your own imaginary or embellished reasons why you can't help him.
The only check you should be sending him is a reality check
I fear the $10k, at his current burn rate, will get him just another couple of months along, into the dark cold winter season, when his depression will be at its worst. I almost wonder if it is kinder to force the crisis now, while he is still a bit capable.
You will not be helping him get over his alcoholism by giving him the 10k.... the only way I might consider it would be if he was in fear of getting roughed up by goons if gambling goes along with his alcoholism.
As a recovering alcoholic myself, thoroughly screwing up my life was the only medicine that worked for me.
I did go through 2 treatment centers, but did not have my last drink until 5 yrs. after the last treatment center.
AA is essentially free and works.... if you want to work it.
Until I was thoroughly convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that the way of drinking for my genetic disposition would only lead to 'jail, institutions, or death' was I able to surrender and live one day at a time without drinking.
And thankfully I had not fully extinguished my will to live at that point.
I am coming up on 15 yrs sober, a day at a time.
Being in full blown addiction is like being possessed by the Devil.
Sometimes you just can't break out and need a change of scenery and a little time to get your head unfogged.
If you are in a place to do so, let him know that the minute he wants to go to treatment/sober living house you will be happy to put $$ toward that.
The nice thing about being FI is that one is in the position to assist loved ones with financial issues when it is appropriate.
If you have good Al-Anon meetings in your area that might be a good resource for your family too.
There are lots of bad meetings out there (whiny, not solution focused) so sometimes it takes a few tries to find the right one.
Hugs to you and your family. It is the most heartbreaking of situations to watch a loved one hurl themselves toward the abyss.
Bae, my family member who is an addict has caused us all kinds of consternation. Here is what a treatment center intake worker instructed us to say to our addicted loved one:
If he asks for a ride, tell him we will drive him to a treatment center.
If he asks for food, tell him we will give him a referral to a food bank.
If he asks for a coat, tell him where a clothing bank is.
If he asks for money, tell him we will take him to a treatment center.
if he asks for love, tell him we love him. And then offer to take him to treatment.
ANYTHING you give will feed the addiction first. Anything. I would strongly recommend telling him, kindly & with love, that you do not have money to give him, and that you hope he gets into inpatient treatment to get appropriate medical help with his life-threatening illness (this is a medical problem, not a moral one). You can reassure him that you will always be family, and care deeply about his well being. Therefore, you hope he gets into inpatient treatment asap, and please keep you posted.
PS - go to meetings off island! On island meetings are, well, dicey. Been there. Done that....
Sounds to me like he only wants to be in contact with you when it's convenient for him, or if there is something in it for him. He may be blood, but he's not family.
I vote NO.
Addicts are in the throes of a very difficult medical illness. This does not exempt them from being family. Please know that alcoholism is a medical problem, not a moral one.
I am coming up on 15 yrs sober, a day at a time.
Congratulations, mtnlaurel!
I second what both Mtnlaurel & Redfox have stated.
If I had the $10K to burn, and if it would soothe my future conscience to give him one last chance to get back on his feet, I would make it contingent on several things:
1) that he first go through inpatient rehabilitation for alcohol abuse, and
2) that the 10K will be disbursed in the form of checks directly to his creditors (rent, grocery store gift cards, etc.)
3) that he be clear that this is the last - ever - loan of this kind
Mostly, this would be for you, not him. He will, as you've pointed out, burn through it quickly. If you don't have any feelings about this, then I wouldn't do anything at all. Like Catherine, I have funded alcoholics and addicts into the low six figures in my life, and I understand them painfully well. It is sad to watch them make their dark choices, sadder still if they do not recover, but they are adults and have the right to experience the repercussions of their actions and learn from them.
This is really good advice!
Don't give him any money. You can't be a crutch. Your cousin needs to learn to stand on his own two feet. He's a grown up. Yeah it will be tough because he has no skills.. If you want to help him, teach him to budget and about living within his means. But don't give him cash.
ApatheticNoMore
9-24-12, 8:02pm
If the 10k is for in-house rehab (which will keep him from freezing to death as well) then maybe. Otherwise of course he is going to waste the money, although if it directly pays his rent and heating I could kind of see it to keep him from freezing to death. But with an understanding that he will then use any other money he gets for his addiction (even if it's selling food stamps for alcohol). If this is understood and accepted as still being more humane (and it might be! but it's not a cure) then .... go ahead. He should probably leave New York, but you can use anywhere, it just costs less and may be a warmer climate.
I have a lot of experience with this also, none of it pretty. It leaves me with a pretty disgusted view of the whole thing. Rehab is no magic cure, most addicts have been in rehab SEVERAL times, heck there are dealers often selling right outside the rehab, HOWEVER it is still a better shot than most ideas. I think addicts should go to rehab. AA is pretty messed up, it pushes it's dogma pretty hard, and a lot of the people in it aren't very nice, and it seems a lot of fakery goes on (people pretending they have x months sobriety when they are secretly using) which shouldn't concern one if one's focus is oneself, but addicts don't always have that mindset. Addicts become not very nice people, they are suffering but they aren't all addicts with hearts of gold, they learn to use and manipulate other people. They would in common parlance be generally called scumbags and worse. The addict I am thinking of has never worked a day in their life (working isn't all that, but this type of extreme detachment of never ever ever working, means they have no concept of reality). They have no real concept of money, only the ability to manipulate others. The ability to spin, spin, spin, spin every argument so that it favors their destructive behavior no matter how irrational. Their using people is never perceived as using people in their minds. Therapy can't ever be tried for a whole bunch of prejudical arguments (therapy is bad, good thing I never try it, and they persist in their addiction, but at least they are untainted by any therapy!). Oh and their addict friends, getting thrown out of one sober living house after another (sober living houses often have people using in them, ha they aren't ideal either). Where are they this month - on the street or dead from ODing on heroine or cocaine? Who knows. Or the addict friend that's still using despite having thier parents give them an interest free mortgage etc.! AA says you need to hit bottom (much of AA's dogma is not supported by actual psychological research and I've read articles against this position), even that is used as an excuse by addicts: "but I can't quit, I haven't hit bottom yet!". But the pit is bottomless, spending time in jail is not a bottom, you would think it would be, but no .... So that you begin to suspect only death is the bottom. :( And it seems to progress as well, the addict become more and more of a selfish manipulator of others.
Not one penny for anything other than direct payments to a treatment facility. I am among those who have learned this through long and painful experience.
Oh bae, I am so sorry. What a difficult situation. I have never been successful in helping any of my relatives who have succumbed to drugs or alcohol. I have tried interventions, tough love, and everything in between. In the end, I said I was sorry and backed away. You have my sincere sympathy and I hope you are more successful than I have been.
rodeosweetheart
9-24-12, 8:12pm
He has not asked you for help, he has asked you for money. A LOT of money. He is an alcoholic. You will just enable him if you give him the money. You will make things worse for him, not better.
Remember, money is life energy. Please, please do not give him any more of your life energy. He is at the stage where he has become a vampire. His mother gave him all of her life energy while she lived in that one room. You gave him a couple of years of life energy dealing with the estate.
I would absolutely tell him that no way will you ever give him a penny.
Just because someone is an alcoholic does not excuse their abuse of you.
You seem very sensible with matters of money and family. Do not let this man's manipulation of you turn into abuse of you.
Please do not give him any money, for your sake.
Blackdog Lin
9-24-12, 8:19pm
I very much like what rodeosweetheart said. He hasn't asked for help, just money. Asking for help implies wanting a change in his situation; asking for money implies that he expects his situation to just go on and on as it has before. And the money just goes into the same black hole as all the money before.
I have been thinking of this and I think I know what the quandary for you is. He is your cousin, family, and your sense of family, and taking care of your own, is weighing heavily on you. I can sympathize with this.
I wonder if you could say, yes, I can give you 10,000, but it will be waiting for you at (treatment center in a town far far away from NY and the lifestyle he has built there) I think treatment needs to be coupled with a break in the patterns he has established in NY. Maybe in this way you could offer the help he asks for, but with the strings attached that he needs to meet you half way. I certainly would insist he leave NY. Maybe for some safe and boring little town in the mid-west with a good treatment facility, and maybe some after care half-way house program that could help him form a new life.
Whatever, I would certainly require some strings attached to whatever help I gave. I actually wouldn't suggest a treatment facility too close to your home as you might then acquire a 'second child' after the treatment. He is in his 50's after all. Maybe Chicago, or St. Louis, or even a smaller city. Research could probably find several suitable facilities.
The fact that you posted this here tells me you are conflicted about this. That actually would speak to your sense of duty to family and responsibility to them. Good for you. It speaks well of you.
gimmethesimplelife
9-24-12, 9:07pm
I may surprise a few folks here with my stance as I tend to be quite liberal.....but NO NO NO do not give him money if you suspect alcohol abuse. I come from a background of alcoholism - my family's - and just say no, as someone else posted early on, two thumbs up to tough love! Maybe....maybe....maybe....if he were willing to take treatment seriously and get out of New York and that life where he spiralled on down...maybe some help. But not to the former lifestyle unless he can support it himself.....Rob
gimmethesimplelife
9-24-12, 9:08pm
I very much like what rodeosweetheart said. He hasn't asked for help, just money. Asking for help implies wanting a change in his situation; asking for money implies that he expects his situation to just go on and on as it has before. And the money just goes into the same black hole as all the money before.As someone related to a long line of alcoholics I say you are dead on here Blackdog Lin! Rob
I couldn't agree more with the majority of posters. Even if you have strings attached he may be able to manipulate them (think about him getting a friend to set up a fake website payment for a treatment facility, then splitting the cash when you pay the friend for what you thought was a treatment center). Yes, that's a pretty paranoid way to look at it but I have my share of addiction disease among my family members, and I can envision at least a couple of them trying to pull off something like this. If it's any easier, think of it this way: what if instead of alcohol, he owned a motorcycle and constantly drove it around so recklessly you wondered when you were going to get a call from a coroner's office about a motorcycle wreck. Would you give him $10K for gas money and new tires?
My family is in a similar situation with my sister. She is a worker and has had a few jobs recently, but none have lasted more than a week or two. Over the past year or so my parents have finally realized that they cannot send her money, no matter how much she swears that it's for heat/food/insurance/whatever. Her bf seems to be one of the triggers that sets her off on a binge, and although family/friends/AA members have told her to leave him, she is seeing him again. She's Einstein's definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome. She also spends a lot of money but we don't know where it's coming from (and she's claimed bankruptcy twice).
Your cousin has to be responsible for his actions and suffer the consequences. He's had an easy life for many years and has to straighten himself out in order to stay alive. His money tree is gone and he's gotta grow up. Don't give him any money. And don't feel guilty about it. You're possibly doing him a huge favor.
ToomuchStuff
9-25-12, 1:24am
While you have had some good advice, you weren't asking for it. This read to me, as a rhetorical what would you do (as in you already made up your mind and did what you were going to).
So, in the rhetorical, some other things, that certainly would cross my mind.
Send him a reply, of how you desperately have been trying to get in touch with him, as you need money. (and you know he had it from the estate)
Some email programs I have used, allow one to bounce back an email, as undeliverable (not a valid email address), use one.
Tell him you are moving to Nigera, and have some investment opportunities.
I have more, but some get a lot darker.
I have never had money like that to give, I grew up poor. I have made friends who do have money to give to charities and such and have also learned from their mistakes, as well as some poor friends, who came into money. Between two friends at opposite ends of the financial spectrum, they ended up losing $1.5 million between four people. (the richer one lost a lot more then that) I know that at times, it is cheaper to "loan" someone say $50, that you know you will never see them, or it again, and that can be a bargain. In general, I don't hang around that sort of person and know the word NO well.
chrisgermany
9-25-12, 4:31am
A strong recommendation to say NO from here.
He is trying to manipulate you as he learned to do with his mother before.
If you allow this once it will continue forever. You will become his next enabler.
If this sounds too harsh you may send him a 20$ gift card for a food store without access to alcohol and mention in the card that this is the most you can do for him. But you will see him coming back to you again and again for more.
If this sounds too harsh you may send him a 20$ gift card for a food store without access to alcohol
Just a few months ago, my alcoholic brother said he had to get out of FL because the people were just bad and he had seen the error of his ways and so he had get out of state to a VA hospital. Encouraged, I told him I would give him the bus ticket, but that I would put it on my credit card online and he had to pick it up at the window. I considered sending him a few bucks for a bag lunch for the trip but decided NOT to give him any cash at all.
The next day he called me and said "he missed the bus because someone stole his ticket." And a few hours later, I got a call from some stranger telling me that he was with my brother but that he wasn't doing very well so he was going to accompany him to the hospital. So my emotions went from compassion to a desire to help to anger to fear and ultimately to guilt that it had been my money that had put him in that place where I thought he might be dying.
Unfortunately, addicts can be very wiley. I believe my brother really DID want to get out of Florida (which he eventually did--he just got his 60 day AA chip) but the disease can be way too overpowering.
So I would even nix the gift card. Gift cards can be sold on the street. There is a very broad system of social services, from community-run soup kitchens to government resources if an alcoholic REALLY wants to eat, sleep and get help.
In recovery myself...don't give him any money!! Give him the number for a local Salvation Army, he can stay there in the AA program and get the help he needs. He has never hit bottom because his mother enabled him for so long...don't start yhe cycle again.
ApatheticNoMore
9-25-12, 12:45pm
He has never hit bottom because his mother enabled him for so long...don't start yhe cycle again.
Again some people's only bottom is death itself. How I hate the bottom myth, how tired I am of all the unscientific myths, the whole recovery industry (though addicts should be in rehab), and addicts themselves. If jail time isn't it (and it didn't work!), maybe for some being a cold dead corpse is the only bottom, the bottom is approximately 6 feet under.
What one needs is not necessarily to hit bottom but a real desire to change, which may come before bottom, and may not come even at bottom! The bottom myth as a form of externalization? (recovery dependent on a set of external conditons having reached some threshold, rather than internal state)
Again some people's only bottom is death itself. How I hate the bottom myth, how tired I am of all the unscientific myths, the whole recovery industry (though addicts should be in rehab), and addicts themselves. If jail time isn't it (and it didn't work!), maybe for some being a cold dead corpse is the only bottom, the bottom is approximately 6 feet under.
What one needs is not necessarily to hit bottom but a real desire to change, which may come before bottom, and may not come even at bottom! The bottom myth as a form of externalization? (recovery dependent on a set of external conditons having reached some threshold, rather than internal state)
In recovery lingo, the bottom is either internal or external or both.....it is the moment when we have had enough and want to do something to change our life. Unless one reaches that point, true recovery is not possible.
I know that at times, it is cheaper to "loan" someone say $50, that you know you will never see them, or it again, and that can be a bargain. In general, I don't hang around that sort of person and know the word NO well.
Yeah, I didn't think about this but I did something like this with my brother. Lent him a pittance, told him he'd have to pay me back before I'd ever lend him any money again and he has neither paid me back, nor ever asked me for money again. Best $3 I ever spent :) Anyway, this could work esp for someone to whom you'd like to give the benefit of the doubt but do not want to lose a large amount of money nor be constantly hounded for more cash. If they are truly reforming, they will pay the money back or at least make a good faith effort before asking for more. If not, you have a great reason never to "lend" money again.
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