View Full Version : An article and a thought
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/romney-captures-the-god-vote-at-first-debate/2012/10/04/e897f44c-0de3-11e2-bb5e-492c0d30bff6_story.html
So, Romney 'captured' the god vote. I think he is pretty much an empty suit who holds no conviction except that he wants to be president, but I have no idea of his faith or how strongly he believes (or is it just another box he checks to get what he wants?)
But reading this article made me wonder. If he were to win, would it be Mormon prayers said at the start of congress? Would he invoke Joseph Smith when swearing in? Would the national day of prayer, which the President sometimes joins publicly, feature Mormon prayers? Will a statue of Joseph Smith grace the oval office?
I just wonder how the Christian right, who is his main base really, feels about electing to the highest office a man who belongs to what most of them consider a cult. And what exactly does he believe? I mean, so many times we have had discussions here where some declare that our political leaders are absolutely guided by their religious beliefs, and really couldn't make a move without consulting their core religious beliefs, so it really begs the question. If Romney won, which religious beliefs would be guiding his decisions? And what do we know about those beliefs and/or his spiritual advisers, preachers, elders, whatever? What/who does he listen to in temple every week? And will every decision be finalized based on Mormon teachings/beliefs?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqQD4dzVkwk
You could probably answer all your questions by investigating his tenure as Governor of Mass. I don't think his religious beliefs were an issue there anymore than I think his religious beliefs would be an issue as President.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/romney-captures-the-god-vote-at-first-debate/2012/10/04/e897f44c-0de3-11e2-bb5e-492c0d30bff6_story.html
So, Romney 'captured' the god vote. I think he is pretty much an empty suit who holds no conviction except that he wants to be president, but I have no idea of his faith or how strongly he believes (or is it just another box he checks to get what he wants?)
But reading this article made me wonder. If he were to win, would it be Mormon prayers said at the start of congress? Would he invoke Joseph Smith when swearing in? Would the national day of prayer, which the President sometimes joins publicly, feature Mormon prayers? Will a statue of Joseph Smith grace the oval office?
I just wonder how the Christian right, who is his main base really, feels about electing to the highest office a man who belongs to what most of them consider a cult. And what exactly does he believe? I mean, so many times we have had discussions here where some declare that our political leaders are absolutely guided by their religious beliefs, and really couldn't make a move without consulting their core religious beliefs, so it really begs the question. If Romney won, which religious beliefs would be guiding his decisions? And what do we know about those beliefs and/or his spiritual advisers, preachers, elders, whatever? What/who does he listen to in temple every week? And will every decision be finalized based on Mormon teachings/beliefs?
You put me in mind of the folks who worried about JFK taking orders from Rome back in 1960.
Well yes, except JFK wasn't a Catholic bishop. I'd prefer a government full of non-believers, personally, but for some reason swearing you're a God-fearing Christian is a litmus test in this country.
Speaking of such, we have a candidate (Charlie Fuqua, R AR) who believes (I am not making this up) parents should be able to have their children executed for "rebelliousness" because the Bible says it's a good idea*. And a Congressman (Paul Broun, R GA) who thinks embryology and evolution, as currently taught, "are lies from the pit of hell." And he sits on a science committee.
Diversity. It's the spice of life.
*This is so loopy, I'm inclined to think the Onion is behind it, but it seems Fuqua (who worked as a lawyer for Arkansas children's services) opined at length on the subject in a book called God's Law.
Well, religion and beliefs seemed of INCREDIBLE importance when Obama was running. Hell, they STILL trot out Rev. Wright on Fox any chance they get. Do you think they have any shame bae? And what exactly does 'shame' have to do with asking what a candidate believes? Oh, right, you're trying to bully me...a favorite tactic of yours.
In fact, it seemed SO IMPORTANT, Obama was summoned to debate the christian right's candidate in front of a 'Fundy' audience, while being grilled by some arrogant preacher.
http://news.spreadit.org/rick-warren-obama-mccainsaddleback-church-presidential-debate/
It was real important then, wasn't it? So important that it was the talk of right wing radio/tv/blogs for months on end. Still is.
http://www.wnd.com/2012/10/obama-didnt-join-wrights-church-to-follow-jesus/
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/04/04/The-Vetting-Obamas-War-on-Catholic-Church-Began-at-First-Job
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/barack-obamas-church-ultra-left-and-afrocentric
But it's all good, cause I guess Obama is Mormon too!
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/09/16/the-mormon-church-posthumously-baptized-obamas-mother/ (this I find oddly funny)
So what has changed? Why is it not so much? Why aren't they having that 'Saddleback' debate about faith? I really want to know. As non believer I think all religions are somewhat suspect, but I also know that fundamentalist think Mormon is a cult religion, yet this is his base. I find that incredibly curious. How do they satisfy the disconnect? Perception is reality. If electing a christian man was so dangerous because of his preacher (in a church of 1000 or more), how dangerous is electing a cult member who might be ruled by HIS religion.
I also find it curious who is jumping to his defense. Pretty much the same individuals who tried to crucify Obama because of his preacher. Of course the usual suspects try to bully and suggest shame of some kind for merely asking the question. (sorry, this isn't Afghanistan. We are allowed to ask these questions, as we all learned when it was a black democrat running)
And why aren't we asking these questions? Are you afraid of the answer? I'm not. I really want to know. Where does he stand on prayer in school? How about evolution? These things affect all Americans. Truthfulness isn't exactly a tenant of his beliefs I'm guessing, but he is a politician and they all fudge things from time to time. It's just he does it so smoothly, looking you right in the face and smiling while he does it. And they aren't just fudges but outright lies. So, maybe in his church you don't burn in hell for bearing false witness, I don't know. No one does, actually, which is why I ask these questions.
Come on, we sure weren't shy about discussing Obama's faith, church, preacher, beliefs, birth, whatever. As a non believer, I see no extra special bubble or code of silence around these questions. If people are so strongly ruled by their faith, as some here have asserted again and again, then let's hear it. Let's hear about his faith.
I'm not asking those questions, Peggy, because I know many Mormons personally, have read their Holy book, have attended their services, have shared an apartment with several, and have worked with many in situations requiring integrity, trust, and focus. My best friend in the entire world, other than my wife, is a Mormon.
Plus, I'm not a bigot.
You are not asking your questions out of any honest concern. You are simply stirring up religious bigotry. You really *do* have no shame.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/romney-captures-the-god-vote-at-first-debate/2012/10/04/e897f44c-0de3-11e2-bb5e-492c0d30bff6_story.html
But reading this article made me wonder. If he were to win, would it be Mormon prayers said at the start of congress? Would he invoke Joseph Smith when swearing in? Would the national day of prayer, which the President sometimes joins publicly, feature Mormon prayers? Will a statue of Joseph Smith grace the oval office?
Did you also wonder if Obama would change the name of the white house?
The Storyteller
10-9-12, 9:18pm
I don't care either way. I find all religions equally ridiculous now days. I believe Mormonism was born of a complete fraud, but then so was Christianity in general. So, it doesn't really matter.
Did you learn mind reading from all your Mormon contacts too? You know exactly what I'm thinking, huh?:0! If you know the answer to these questions, then clearly this discussion isn't for you, but forgive me if i don't count YOUR personal knowledge of EVERYTHING as good enough for the rest of us.("my best friend is a Mormon so, move along folks, nothing to see here!") See, it really isn't always about you bae.
I have no idea what so ever what he believes. I do have fundamentalist family members though and I do know they believe Mormon to be a cult. I don't know why exactly, except that fundamentalist seem to believe anyone who doesn't believe as they do will go to hell. But to believe them to be a cult, that's more than just 'you're going to hell'. And yet, they all plan to vote for Romney, and I find that extremely curious. My own family members, who have personally informed me I will burn forever because I don't 'believe' seem to have no problem voting for someone who 'belongs to a cult'. Ironically enough I also have Mormon family members, but they are pretty tight lipped on their faith. The two sides never meet.
So, all I can figure is it's the perception thing. Republicans, no matter what they believe, are all good cause they are, well, republicans, and democrats either don't believe, or they are lying about what they believe.
http://www.conservapedia.com/Barack_Hussein_Obama
The only thing I'm trying to 'stir up' is the same level of debate we had when Obama was first running. Why was it OK then and not now? Why? I think that's a pretty honest question. How about an honest answer.
I don't care either way. I find all religions equally ridiculous now days. I believe Mormonism was born of a complete fraud, but then so was Christianity in general. So, it doesn't really matter.
Oh I agree. All religion is fraud, to some degree. And increasingly unnecessary as we learn truths about science and the world and universe around us. But here is this reporter, writing for a fairly respected, or at least well known, 'paper' talking about who won the 'god' vote. Seeing how the fundamentalist christian right is the republican base, I find it curious how they can sort of shove aside everything they have said about Mormons, Obama, and faith in general, as they see it, and vote for someone they feel is a cult member. Mind you, I didn't say i thought Mormon was a cult religion, despite bae trying to accuse me of having no 'shame'. I just know what the republican religious right thinks of Mormon. Kind of like the KKK voting for Obama. Just seems weirdly disconnected.
I'm with Jane on this. I think we should elect non believers. Then we can elect people who are guided by a real sense of right and wrong, and not just someone trying to dodge a celestial smack-down.>8)
Just seems weirdly disconnected.
Simple. Lesser of two evils.
Peggy, If you want to take history as a lesson, there was quite a stir when Kennedy was elected as the first Catholic president. Mainstream was much more conservative then. I personally don't consider Mormonism any more or less of a cult than the religious right. Here are a few lines from a famous Kennedy speech. Maybe our modern day citizens and politicians will find a similar wisdom.
"For while this year it may be a Catholic against whom the finger of suspicion is pointed, in other years it has been, and may someday be again, a Jew--or a Quaker--or a Unitarian--or a Baptist. It was Virginia's harassment of Baptist preachers, for example, that helped lead to Jefferson's statute of religious freedom. Today I may be the victim--but tomorrow it may be you--until the whole fabric of our harmonious society is ripped at a time of great national peril."
"...I believe in an America where religious intolerance will someday end--where all men and all churches are treated as equal--where every man has the same right to attend or not attend the church of his choice--where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind--and where Catholics, Protestants and Jews, at both the lay and pastoral level, will refrain from those attitudes of disdain and division which have so often marred their works in the past, and promote instead the American ideal of brotherhood."
"That is the kind of America in which I believe. And it represents the kind of Presidency in which I believe--a great office that must neither be humbled by making it the instrument of any one religious group nor tarnished by arbitrarily withholding its occupancy from the members of any one religious group. I believe in a President whose religious views are his own private affair, neither imposed by him upon the nation or imposed by the nation upon him as a condition to holding that office."
Seeing how the fundamentalist christian right is the republican base,
If that were true, the GOP would be a much smaller party and you'd have little to worry about. Fortunately for America (IMHO), the base is a bit broader than that.
Well Kennedy was right, Rogar. It shouldn't matter. And I wouldn't have brought it up, despite accusations from some, except here is this reporter talking about the 'god' vote. And this isn't some little blog somewhere. And there is Romney invoking 'god' at any chance he can (however apparently we aren't supposed to mention his faith) to play to his base. But I know who his base is. And, yeah, it kind of chaps my butt when these people have been in our faces, shaking their sanctimonious fingers at us, trying to write and re-write laws to suit their beliefs, and being so incredibly intolerant of other religions to the point that they try to stir up acrimony against the democratic President by lying about HIS faith.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/26/obama-muslim_n_1706522.html
Now how do these people come to this conclusion? It isn't Obama saying this. No, it's those same fundamentalist right who seem to lose their voice when it's the republican candidate, whom they think is a member of a cult! Crickets! So they can't have it both ways.
Which is why I brought this up in the first place. I keep seeing poll after poll saying so many republicans think Obama is a Muslim, which is false, but ignore their own candidate who is Mormon, which is true, and their own beliefs about Mormons. Preaching to me about tolerance is pretty disingenuous in the face of it, really. I am tolerant in that I vote for any adult who believes in what I consider fairy tales. The fact that some fairy tales are more outlandish than others is probably where the cult aspect comes in, but really, in my opinion, it's only a 'cult' if it's actually harmful (Jim Jones, etc...)
I guess Yossarian is right. Their hatred for Obama (and it's more than just policy differences cause this hatred was expressed even before he took office) is greater than their own religious beliefs (which in the light of it is phony) or their concern for the country (which by their own reckoning would be put in the hands of a cult member)
Is it because he's black or is it because he is democratic? Or maybe it's both. Maybe the combination is more repugnant than a cult. (by their own beliefs)
Even Glen Beck, who is Mormon, discusses Obama's 'faith as a Muslim' ! Talk about a hilarious disconnect! You can't make this stuff up!
http://www.glennbeck.com/2012/04/27/obama%E2%80%99s-shocking-ties-to-the-muslim-brotherhood/
Kennedy was right, but I don't' see that happening. There IS a religious test in this country, but apparently only for the democratic candidate. For Kennedy, for Obama, and for the next democratic contender. Even the reaction to my starting this thread shows that some would have you believe it's blasphemous for a democrat to even bring up religion, as the right owns it, apparently.
I find myself unable to be any more concerned with Mr. Romney's religious beliefs than I am with his favorite color and can find no legitimate, credible reason to discuss either in the context of his qualifications. Plus, I have never heard a single person from MA complain that his Mormon faith interfered with his leadership there or that his favorite color didn't look good in the Governor's office.
goldensmom
10-10-12, 9:56am
I find myself unable to be any more concerned with Mr. Romney's religious beliefs than I am with his favorite color and can find no legitimate, credible reason to discuss either in the context of his qualifications. Plus, I have never heard a single person from MA complain that his Mormon faith interfered with his leadership there or that his favorite color didn't look good in the Governor's office.
Amen……….can I say that?
I find myself unable to be any more concerned with Mr. Romney's religious beliefs than I am with his favorite color and can find no legitimate, credible reason to discuss either in the context of his qualifications. Plus, I have never heard a single person from MA complain that his Mormon faith interfered with his leadership there or that his favorite color didn't look good in the Governor's office.
Well, he wasn't here very much :-)
I do agree with Peggy that religion appears to be a card to play when it's expedient (like in the case of our "Muslim" President). I thought the card was also played a bit by the "anybody but Romney" folks earlier in the primaries.
As far as Romney himself, I think it's only a card he can play himself, I'm just relieved that it's not Perry or Bachman in that position.
Seriously creaker, you had a front row seat to Romney as Governor. Most of the rest of us are on the outside looking in. Was his religion ever an issue either during that election cycle or during his time in office?
Peggy: Do you honestly think those are legitimate questions?
FYI--Mormon "prayers" are actually free-form talking to Heavenly Father, are off the cuff and refer to God as thee, thy and thou.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/romney-captures-the-god-vote-at-first-debate/2012/10/04/e897f44c-0de3-11e2-bb5e-492c0d30bff6_story.html
So, Romney 'captured' the god vote. I think he is pretty much an empty suit who holds no conviction except that he wants to be president, but I have no idea of his faith or how strongly he believes (or is it just another box he checks to get what he wants?)
But reading this article made me wonder. If he were to win, would it be Mormon prayers said at the start of congress? Would he invoke Joseph Smith when swearing in? Would the national day of prayer, which the President sometimes joins publicly, feature Mormon prayers? Will a statue of Joseph Smith grace the oval office?
I just wonder how the Christian right, who is his main base really, feels about electing to the highest office a man who belongs to what most of them consider a cult. And what exactly does he believe? I mean, so many times we have had discussions here where some declare that our political leaders are absolutely guided by their religious beliefs, and really couldn't make a move without consulting their core religious beliefs, so it really begs the question. If Romney won, which religious beliefs would be guiding his decisions? And what do we know about those beliefs and/or his spiritual advisers, preachers, elders, whatever? What/who does he listen to in temple every week? And will every decision be finalized based on Mormon teachings/beliefs?
These are some of the reasons I am such a strong advocate of the seperation of church and state. None of that should matter if religion is completely seperated from government - both in it's policies as well as in it's day to day practice (i.e. praying before a congrssional session, etc...). We are a multi-cultural and multi-religious nation and it is impossible (and insulting to the many diverse beliefs I think) to try and have a "one size fits all" religion for government functions and policies.
These are some of the reasons I am such a strong advocate of the seperation of church and state. None of that should matter if religion is completely seperated from government - both in it's policies as well as in it's day to day practice (i.e. praying before a congrssional session, etc...). We are a multi-cultural and multi-religious nation and it is impossible (and insulting to the many diverse beliefs I think) to try and have a "one size fits all" religion for government functions and policies.
Exactly. I mean, I guess i knew they prayed before sessions of congress, but I didn't really think about it until I read this Washington Post article. Then I just got to thinking about Romney, Obama and the religious litmus test for Office (remember the holy stink Fox made about the Muslim congressman?) and how it is somehow only applied to democrats and even then lied about because everyone knows that a democrat can't possible be a TRUE Christian. I guess my post is mainly about the hypocrisy. I am all for eliminating the prayers before congress. If these guys want to pray they have ample opportunity to do so throughout the day. I am also for eliminating god from our pledge and from our money. You are absolutely right in that this is a diverse country with many different religions, and non religious. It's time we accept and acknowledge that.
So, to all those who are offended that I would even bring up the subject of religion, do you support the elimination of god from our pledge and money? How about praying before a session of congress? Should we do away with that? I don't think any candidate should be questioned about their faith, but as Romney said himself, 'What's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander'. If Obama's 'faith' is questioned, or lied about to sway the low information folks (on either side), then so should Romney's.
....So, to all those who are offended that I would even bring up the subject of religion, do you support the elimination of god from our pledge and money? How about praying before a session of congress? Should we do away with that? I don't think any candidate should be questioned about their faith, but as Romney said himself, 'What's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander'. If Obama's 'faith' is questioned, or lied about to sway the low information folks (on either side), then so should Romney's.
I'm an atheist according to the conventional view, but still believe that there is something larger than myself. I believe in the shared spirit of humanity enjoyed by all humans and could probably be persuaded that this is God.
I know that there's something larger than me because I have a family without which I am nothing. I have associations which change me from a speck in humanity's eye to a vital part of society.
If I had to symbolize, or affirm, my responsibilites to others it might take the form of prayer. Prayer that I live up to humanity's expectations or prayer that I could draw from their collective strength to help me through a difficult spot.
That's how I think of non-denominational, public prayer, and I'm all for it!
Peggy: Do you honestly think those are legitimate questions?
FYI--Mormon "prayers" are actually free-form talking to Heavenly Father, are off the cuff and refer to God as thee, thy and thou.
I do. How many times here have people asserted how strongly a political leader is guided by their faith/beliefs. As a non believer, I think it's more than just a little bit in my interest to know what this guy believes. It's tough enough to try to hold back the fundamentalist who would re-write, or write laws to adhere to THEIR religious beliefs without throwing something more into the mix.
When folks, who follow pretty goofy fairy-tails themselves, lie about Obama's fairy-tails (which are very much like theirs) to make them bigger, blacker, scarier fairy-tails, while ignoring the guy who, by their teachings, DOES believe in the bigger, scarier fairytale, and vote for him over the one who believes as they do...it just makes my head spin!
so...Romney won the god vote. It must matter to someone.(no one here apparently!)
You have to understand I don't believe any of it, and consider it all pretty goofy, although I would never actually call someone stupid or idiotic for believing. (at least not to their face;) ) I have too many friends and family members whom I love and respect who do believe. Well, there are a couple of 'religions' that I do believe people are stupid for following, but that's neither here nor there. And I don't believe in any special kid glove treatment for religion, or religious beliefs (draw all the cartoons you want!)
My main focus is self preservation. I don't want any more religious nuts trying to write laws for my country to satisfy their religious beliefs. I kind of was concerned about the Romney-bot and how he would just do the signing without question that Grover Norquist seems to think he will do. But, actually, after the past week and the etch-a-sketch all over the board, depending on who is listening, I feel certain he is lying to his base as much as to everyone else, and maybe he wouldn't just 'auto-pen' everything put in front of him. I will look at his record in Mass, even though he tried to distance himself from it, before he tried to take credit for it. But I got to tell you, listening to him talk, and seeing who he picked for vice, I don't think he is a moderate republican, even thought he played one in Massachusetts. (and moderates are who we need)
On the prayers, I did not know that. Actually that's very much like Fundamentalist, except without the thee and thy stuff. His base shouldn't have a problem with that. Although I'd still like to know why they think it's a cult. Just curiosity, I guess. I doubt anyone here is going to tell me.>8)
I'm an atheist according to the conventional view, but still believe that there is something larger than myself. I believe in the shared spirit of humanity enjoyed by all humans and could probably be persuaded that this is God.
I know that there's something larger than me because I have a family without which I am nothing. I have associations which change me from a speck in humanity's eye to a vital part of society.
If I had to symbolize, or affirm, my responsibilites to others it might take the form of prayer. Prayer that I live up to humanity's expectations or prayer that I could draw from their collective strength to help me through a difficult spot.
That's how I think of non-denominational, public prayer, and I'm all for it!
Well, unless you would 'pray' to other people around you, your affirmation of responsibilities to them wouldn't exactly take the form of a prayer, would it? That would be just a little weird.:~)
"In god we trust", and "under god" is not non denominational. I think the Pledge of Allegiance, excluding 'under god' is affirmation enough. Every one of those political leaders has promised to uphold the constitution and laws of this country. God can't vote them out of office, or put them in jail, or impeach, but we can, so I don't really hold their 'promise' to god any higher than their promise to me. In fact, considering the actions of many of those politicians, god doesn't really hold any sway on their behavior, and it was only men who called them to account (if caught)
I too believe in people, and the general goodness of people. And I know that morals don't come from religion, or religious belief. I think public prayer(in congress) is a phony play for the 'god' vote, and is actually an insult to everyone who doesn't believe in the religion of the day, which I believe is fundamentalist christian right now. Actually it might be good for the fundamentalist right to have a Mormon candidate. Maybe it will force them to examine their own ridiculous beliefs, and realize that 'religion' doesn't matter. That having 'in god we trust' or 'under god' on our money and in our pledge is actually kind of backwards and silly. That it really is all about the person. Do you think that will happen? (naw! Just kidding!)
Between you and me, it will be fun to see the good Christians on Fox morph their favorite phrase into Judeo-Christian-Mormon values.:D
I'm an atheist according to the conventional view, but still believe that there is something larger than myself. I believe in the shared spirit of humanity enjoyed by all humans and could probably be persuaded that this is God.
I know that there's something larger than me because I have a family without which I am nothing. I have associations which change me from a speck in humanity's eye to a vital part of society.
If I had to symbolize, or affirm, my responsibilites to others it might take the form of prayer. Prayer that I live up to humanity's expectations or prayer that I could draw from their collective strength to help me through a difficult spot.
That's how I think of non-denominational, public prayer, and I'm all for it!
Maybe, instead of a public non-denominational yet still religious prayer, it would be better to have public officials take or re-new an oath to acknowlegde and honor those things/people/ideologies that they serve in life, and who's values they have promised to uphold - for theirself, familiy, community, nation, etc... I actually think it would do many politians good to have to re-affirm their oaths of duty to the public each day. Remind them what their purpose is and who they serve.
Peggy: I have intimately studied the LDS religion (and attendant culture) for many years. I can assure you that LDS is NOTHING like Evangelical or Fundamentalist Christianity.
Without going into the doctrine (which is PROFOUNDLY different from mainstream Christianity) the driving force behind the culture of modern Mormonism is a need to be accepted as mainstream Christian to the degree that individual Mormons and the Mormon hierarchy (First Presidency, Quorum of Twelve and Seventy) will allow inaccurate claims of Mormon beliefs to stand unchallenged if the misconstrued belief stated by someone in an influential position could advance the goal of the Church to foster Church acceptance outside of Mormonism. In other words, establishing a positive opinion of Mormonism in the mainstream American culture trumps preserving/defending doctrine, hands down. This is why Mitt Romney doesn't talk about Mormonism publicly beyond relating warm and happy experiences he had as a missionary in his youth. If you were able to interview Mitt Romney you would not be able to get him to talk about specific doctrine beyond general, feel-good stuff like, "we all go to heaven," "families are forever" or it's the Church's responsibility to "help the poor."
If MR were to be elected President he would never introduce specific doctrines of Mormonism that differ from mainstream Christianity into anything done in his Administration. It just wouldn't happen. When he took the oath of office it would be on a Holy Bible (KJV.) Even though Mormons think that Joseph Smith, Junior is as important to mankind as Jesus, MR would NEVER dedicate anything he did to JS, Jr.
I cannot emphasize enough that if you understood this religion and culture you would realize you are barking up the wrong tree with these concerns. It's simply not what modern Mormonism is about.
You can set your fears on this score aside. I assure you, they're not reasonable. And there are plenty other reasons to fear a Romney Administration.
For the record, I am not nor have I ever been Mormon and no one in my family has ever been, either.
iris lily
10-10-12, 6:32pm
bunnys, I wouldn't have dignified peggy's psuedo questions (which are really just potshots aimed at Romney) with answers, but since you did, it was interesting. Thanks.
I always forget that Mitt Romney is Morman, just like I forget that he graduated from law school.
I personally don't even think that the current President is very religious and if he admitted someday to being a non-believer, that would not surprise me. Being an atheist myself (we've got a lot of them int he conservatives around here dont we?) that's not a negative.
Well, unless you would 'pray' to other people around you, your affirmation of responsibilities to them wouldn't exactly take the form of a prayer, would it?
To me a prayer really isn't anything more than asking for something you want or need, occasionally having an offer to reciprocate somehow attached to it. In that sense don't most of us complete that loop with family, friends or coworkers pretty much every day? I don't have much skin in the theological game (my feelings being very similar to Alan's and apparently Iris' as well), but really don't see why asking for guidance, wisdom, protection or whatever should be all that threatening.
"In god we trust", and "under god" is not non denominational.
I've always thought "God" was a pretty generic term, one that included all kinds of deities. My main reason for thinking that way is probably because of some devout Muslim relatives who interchange God and Allah fairly freely and I just figured they are more likely to be insulted than anyone else I know. But they certainly don't represent every non-Christian in the world so you may have a point. I've never researched it, I only remember hearing about sun and moon gods and Greek and Roman gods and 330 million Hindu gods and Mayan gods and how in Islam all creatures sing God's glory and on and on... That leads me to believe there is a sizable portion of the non-Christian population that also uses the term somehow.
You have to understand I don't believe any of it, and consider it all pretty goofy, although I would never actually call someone stupid or idiotic for believing. (at least not to their face;) ) I have too many friends and family members whom I love and respect who do believe. Well, there are a couple of 'religions' that I do believe people are stupid for following, but that's neither here nor there. And I don't believe in any special kid glove treatment for religion, or religious beliefs (draw all the cartoons you want!)
Your sentence where you state you would never call someone "stupid or idiotic" to their face and then go on to state you have too many friends and family members who are believers that you love and respect too much to criticize, sounds contradictory. How can you really love or respect someone who you think is stupid for holding a religious belief? And furthermore, what standard do you use to judge whether or not a religion is more stupid than another? You're a self-proclaimed non-believer. Don't you know by now they're all nothing more than comic-book-hero fare even if they may be presented as Technicolor Extravaganzas (singing and dancing and costumes and MIRACLES?) What difference does it make if the guy walked on water and raised someone from the dead or if the gods came down and helped the Aryans defeat the invading armies or if there was a "war in heaven" and if those who fought valiantly for God were rewarded with white skin and those who were cowardly recieved the "mark of Cain" (black skin.) It's still all stupid, made-up, fantasy. None are any more riduclous than the others.
On the prayers, I did not know that. Actually that's very much like Fundamentalist, except without the thee and thy stuff. His base shouldn't have a problem with that. Although I'd still like to know why they think it's a cult. Just curiosity, I guess. I doubt anyone here is going to tell me.>8)
Some themes associated with cults include inordinate amount of time spent practicing the religion (Mormons regularly spend 3-5 hours every Sunday [and a total of 20-30 hours per week] completing their Church "callings"[responsibilities,]) blind devotion to the leader (famous Mormon quote "when the Prophet speaks, the thinking's been done,") and excessive financial requirements (in order to receive a Temple Recommend [pass to get into the Mormon temples to do special ordinances that will allow Mormons to progress to the highest level of heaven] Mormons must tithe 10% of their gross income.) I'll leave it to you to decide if you feel these requirments meet the criterion for "cult" in your opinion.
Seriously creaker, you had a front row seat to Romney as Governor. Most of the rest of us are on the outside looking in. Was his religion ever an issue either during that election cycle or during his time in office?
My own, personal opinion - no. But it would not have gone over well here, either. He was pro-choice when he needed to be to become governor, now that's a much less viable stance for him running for President and coincidentally that's not his stance anymore. I think his outward push of religion is similarly grounded.
I think like many politicians he would invoke religion if it was expedient to do so (we're never going to have an openly atheist President in this country). Being governor of MA, I think there just wasn't much to gain from it.
Actually I feel more comfortable with Romney than with some of the other candidates that were in the primary from a religious perspective. I could imagine wave of evangelical ferver sweeping the country - but not mormons.
ApatheticNoMore
10-10-12, 8:14pm
My own, personal opinion - no. But it would not have gone over well here, either. He was pro-choice when he needed to be to become governor, now that's a much less viable stance for him running for President and coincidentally that's not his stance anymore. I think his outward push of religion is similarly grounded.
Basically that is my take on Romney in total. He stands for nothing, or who can be sure what he stands for. So what will rush in to fill the great vacuum .... his base, his donors, some ideologues recycled from previous R administrations (including neo-cons)? Yea, I don't like the sound of that ... at all.
The Storyteller
10-11-12, 9:16am
Your sentence where you state you would never call someone "stupid or idiotic" to their face and then go on to state you have too many friends and family members who are believers that you love and respect too much to criticize, sounds contradictory. How can you really love or respect someone who you think is stupid for holding a religious belief?
Everyone I know holds at least one stupid opinion or belief or another, including my family. Some of whom actually are pretty stupid. That doesn't stop me from loving them.
Yea, I love my dog. She's no rocket scientist. And I'm pretty sure she's liberal... :D
Your sentence where you state you would never call someone "stupid or idiotic" to their face and then go on to state you have too many friends and family members who are believers that you love and respect too much to criticize, sounds contradictory. How can you really love or respect someone who you think is stupid for holding a religious belief? And furthermore, what standard do you use to judge whether or not a religion is more stupid than another? You're a self-proclaimed non-believer. Don't you know by now they're all nothing more than comic-book-hero fare even if they may be presented as Technicolor Extravaganzas (singing and dancing and costumes and MIRACLES?) What difference does it make if the guy walked on water and raised someone from the dead or if the gods came down and helped the Aryans defeat the invading armies or if there was a "war in heaven" and if those who fought valiantly for God were rewarded with white skin and those who were cowardly recieved the "mark of Cain" (black skin.) It's still all stupid, made-up, fantasy. None are any more riduclous than the others.
Some themes associated with cults include inordinate amount of time spent practicing the religion (Mormons regularly spend 3-5 hours every Sunday [and a total of 20-30 hours per week] completing their Church "callings"[responsibilities,]) blind devotion to the leader (famous Mormon quote "when the Prophet speaks, the thinking's been done,") and excessive financial requirements (in order to receive a Temple Recommend [pass to get into the Mormon temples to do special ordinances that will allow Mormons to progress to the highest level of heaven] Mormons must tithe 10% of their gross income.) I'll leave it to you to decide if you feel these requirments meet the criterion for "cult" in your opinion.
Didn't you see the 'smiley face'? LOL I can love and respect people without respecting all their beliefs. (I have republicans in the family after all ;) ) No one agrees 100% with anyone else, and I give no more weight to religious beliefs than any other belief. I have a sister who believes in just about everything Dr. Oz says, which is incredibly dumb, but I still love her and respect HER, not her beliefs.
Despite IL's assertion (asking questions about some one's faith is a pot shot? really?), I do appreciate your earlier response about the LDS beliefs. I have no idea about their beliefs, only what I hear and read, and what he has said, which sounded suspiciously like Fundy's. The next President is going to probably add to the SCOTUS and I know a Santorum or Perry would pack it to reverse all sorts of gains women and minorities have made. And Romney was busy tacking to THEIR right, so my concern. And then there is Ryan, who would do all sorts of Fundy damage to this country if given half a chance.
Yes, it is all fairy-tails, and for the most part harmless, except when these folks try to foster their fairy-tales on the rest of the country, which is a very real possibility. They keep trying, and in some areas they make gains (school curriculum, rewriting history books, ten commandments and public prayers, etc..) It's not just a pot shot, but a concern that everyone, even those of other religions, should be very aware of. It never fails to amaze me how people who are for all these public affirmations of god and prayer ALWAYS seem to labor under the assumption that it will be THEIR prayer said, or THEIR god invoked.
'God' is not generic representation of 'everyone'. He is a religious deity, and we shouldn't be invoking a religious deity of any kind on our money or in our pledge.
As to the 'stupid' religions, well, yes, I can say I believe some people are in fact stupid for following some of them. Scientology comes to mind. Here is a 'religion' started by a science fiction writer who said that the fastest way to separate people from their money is to invent a religion! duh! Or the Westboro Baptist church that preaches hate, literally. I don't give any special consideration to religious beliefs over any other belief. I don't see talking about Romney's religious beliefs any more of a 'pot shot' than Iris Lily's (jabs) at Obama's health care reform, which he believes very strongly in. When people get offended by 'religious talk' I think it's because they know it's all goofy, and just don't want to go there, or hold that fun house mirror up to their favorite guy!
From what you say I wouldn't exactly label Mormon a cult as I think cults are the ones that are extremely harmful, like Jim Jones and that type. Or ones that isolate their members and keep them away from family. I never said I thought it was cult, just that I know Fundy's think it's a cult and I was wondering why. I appreciate your answer.
I'm just curious, you seem to know a lot about them, as well as other religions. Do you teach this stuff? Although I don't believe in religions, I have always found creation stories fascinating. Every culture and/or religion explains how we got here, and for the most part the stories are charming!
I really appreciate you understanding that I am truly curious about all this, and your answers have been very helpful. I would ask you more questions about this secretive religion and the things I have heard, but it is apparently as extremely offensive to IL and others here as talking about Obama's beliefs weren't, so, I guess I'll just leave it be. Thanks again bunnys.
Yea, I love my dog. She's no rocket scientist. And I'm pretty sure she's liberal... :D
Dogs are liberal, and cats are (benign when it suits them) dictators!;)
Yea, I love my dog. She's no rocket scientist. And I'm pretty sure she's liberal... :D
Because she expects someone else to feed her, or because she favors affirmative action in college admissions?
Because she expects someone else to feed her, or because she favors affirmative action in college admissions?
Probably because she is kind and loving, and cares more about those around her than her own selfish interest. And thinks Ayn Rand's books are only good for peeing on.:D
Yea, I love my dog. She's no rocket scientist. And I'm pretty sure she's liberal... :D
Oh not my dog - she hordes her bones and toys and just will not share - not even if she is has to only share 10 - 25% of her stuff. She's always looking for loopholes so she can keep it all :-)! Oh and she'll bite if you try to take it from her. A true conservative :-)!
Peggy & others: Good point @ people holding stupid beliefs and still being able to love/respect. I stand corrected.
I teach history and the subject I'm most interested in is comparative religion. I know a lot about a lot of religions. I am especially interested in Mormonism bc I live in a hotbed for Mormon activity (surprisingly they're not all in Utah) and it is the quintessential American religion. And yes, the doctrine (when you really, really get deep into it) is very far from mainstream Christianity. As Christianity is TRADITIONALLY defined, Mormonism is not Christian.
BTW--the creation stories are usually variations on a theme. They may be charming, but their impact (on the lives of their practitioners as well as non-believers) can be deadly.
Because she expects someone else to feed her, or because she favors affirmative action in college admissions?
Well, she is a Black lab (but I'm not sure that makes her a minority in the dog world). Oh God, did I just play a race card? Oh crap, I just said God. November 7 can't come soon enough. Btw, she like Ayn Rand. Says it tastes like bacon.
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BTW--the creation stories are usually variations on a theme. They may be charming, but their impact (on the lives of their practitioners as well as non-believers) can be deadly.
True that! And worth repeating! Even seemingly benign religions are basically instruments of control. Maybe we don't have blood sacrifice or stoning or harems in this country, but the intent of organized religion has remained the same since primitive man first learned he could dazzle and control his friends with magic tricks.
catherine
10-11-12, 8:57pm
I never thought of Mormons as being wildly different from other Christian religions. I never considered Romney being Mormon as being a problem, or something to dwell on. I'm (probably) not voting for him, but his religion would have nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not I vote for him. It's basically a non-issue.
As for why Republicans don't question Romney's beliefs, I think it's because his public life has trumped his personal life, and the values Republicans are identifying with are the Republican values of free market and limited government. If he believes in Jesus Christ, no matter what denomination, well, that's icing on the cake. That's just my opinion.
And, for the record, when my mother was in a nursing home two hours away, local Mormons "adopted" her and took her to services every Sunday, all day. They, not I, were with her on her last birthday, giving her a pizza party. She was part of their "family" even though she never converted, nor did they try to persuade her to.
So, if that's the spirit that a candidate, Romney or otherwise, would bring to the presidency, I say, bring it on.
Because she expects someone else to feed her, or because she favors affirmative action in college admissions?
Actually she's probably a republican since she expects food from her family, not food assistance from the government. :-)
I never thought of Mormons as being wildly different from other Christian religions.
If he believes in Jesus Christ, no matter what denomination, well, that's icing on the cake. That's just my opinion.
And, for the record, when my mother was in a nursing home two hours away, local Mormons "adopted" her and took her to services every Sunday, all day. They, not I, were with her on her last birthday, giving her a pizza party. She was part of their "family" even though she never converted, nor did they try to persuade her to.
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The doctrine IS wildly different from Christianity. He does not believe in JC in the same way that mainstream Christianity believes in JC. It is a fact. If interested, you should do some reading on the subject--from a variety of sources.
Please do not think that my comments were intended to demean Mormonism as lacking because it isn't Christian. I don't care. I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm not Christian. And neither is Mormonism--as far a other Christian denominations see it.
And as for the Mormons "adopting" your mom. That's a typical thing for Mormons to do. It's good for their image. It was also a very kind thing to do for your mom.
Square Peg
10-12-12, 3:26am
It seems that evangelical Christians ARE wrestling with the question of whether they can vote for Romney, due to his religion.
http://seattletimes.com/html/politics/2019384015_apusevangelicalsmormonromney.html
http://www.christianpost.com/news/theologians-tackle-should-christians-vote-for-a-mormon-for-president-question-81537/
catherine
10-12-12, 7:17am
The doctrine IS wildly different from Christianity. He does not believe in JC in the same way that mainstream Christianity believes in JC. It is a fact. If interested, you should do some reading on the subject--from a variety of sources.
I'm sure you're right about my not knowing a lot about the doctrine of Mormonism vs. mainstream Christianity. I guess I always take the 30,000 foot view of what being a Christian means: you claim yourself to be a disciple of Jesus Christ, and you live out works of mercy. Basically that's it--to me at least.
Here's an interesting explanation (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500803_162-3199461-500803.html) as to why perhaps evangelicals aren't kicking up their heels more: they might be as ignorant as I am!
One last thing: I really don't see their missionary works as being mainly PR.
6. Is Mitt Romney's Mormon faith an issue in the way that Catholicism was for John F. Kennedy in 1960?
It's much the same, but the differences are more interesting. Kennedy faced a long history of anti-Catholicism dating back to the arrival of the Puritans at Plymouth Rock, centuries before the birth of Mormonism's founding prophet Joseph Smith. Today, polls show that most Americans do not know enough about Mormonism to reject Romney for that reason. In 1928, Al Smith lost his bid for the Presidency in part because of his Catholicism Catholic. In 1968 Romney's father George, a liberal Republican Governor of Michigan, ran for the GOP Presidential nomination and lost to Richard Nixon, but his Mormon faith was never an issue.
When Kennedy ran for President, he faced the organized opposition of a group of well-known Protestant clergymen like Norman Vincent Peale. So far, no Christian clergy have organized against Romney. But Kennedy could count on the Catholic vote, and most Catholics then were Democrats. Romney, by contrast, is fighting for the nomination of a party that includes a lot of fundamentalist Protestants, especially in the South, and some of them – including the leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention — label Mormonism a dangerous cult.
7. Is it a cult?
Good question. Christianity itself began as a cult. That is, its adherents worshiped a human being as divine, which defines a cult. Today, the LDS church is just as much a church as, say, the Roman Catholic Church. Many of the same Fundamentalists who consider Mormonism a cult also regard Catholicism as a cult. Romney should ignore them.
8. How do Evangelical Christians, so important to the Republican base, view Mormons?
Not as fellow Christians, as I said. Their main objection, besides the beliefs I've already mentioned, is that Mormons rely on the Book of Mormon, which radically reinterprets and recasts the Bible, which Evangelicals regard as the complete and only authoritative source of religious truth.
But they do like his positions on social issues like abortion and the family, which is what Romney has emphasized so far to Evangelical audiences. More open-minded Evangelicals are more interested in Romney's conservative credentials than in Mormonism's esoteric doctrines about God and the afterlife that have no bearing on politics. Romney is counting on the open-minded vote.
9. Are there any aspects of Mormonism that Americans of other faiths can admire?
Sure. Concern for the family, an emphasis on hard work and clean living are three of them. That's the image the LDS church promotes through its public relations apparatus and what the Romney camp is emphasizing too. As a made-in-America religion, Mormonism epitomizes the 19th century myth of the self-made man, which is ironic given its clan-to-corporate history. All this helps to explain why Mormons are more likely to vote Republican than Democrat when a Mormon is not among the candidates.
10. Does that mean Romney won't make a speech like Kennedy did, to diffuse the "religion issue"?
He won't unless he has to — unless, that is, his camp decides it is politically necessary. They are already working on the text and if he wins the Republican nomination the odds are he will give it. Stay tuned.
The doctrine IS wildly different from Christianity. He does not believe in JC in the same way that mainstream Christianity believes in JC. It is a fact. If interested, you should do some reading on the subject--from a variety of sources.
Please do not think that my comments were intended to demean Mormonism as lacking because it isn't Christian. I don't care. I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm not Christian. And neither is Mormonism--as far a other Christian denominations see it.
And as for the Mormons "adopting" your mom. That's a typical thing for Mormons to do. It's good for their image. It was also a very kind thing to do for your mom.
Humm, that's interesting. I knew Joseph Smith was a prophet for them, but it never occurred to me that JC was thought of any differently than other Christian religions, mainly because of their name, but then I also thought they were more or less considered a christian religion.
So, is JC on equal footing with Joseph Smith or maybe even a bit below on the important scale? I"m guessing they just see him as a mortal man, a prophet, but mortal.
Do you have any good links to real information about them and their beliefs that we can check out? Sure there is lots out there, but I'm guessing, like everything else on the Internet, most of it is speculation and conjecture. I"m thinking a fundamentalist web site ISN'T the best place for info!;)
If PR for their religion is of higher concern than pushing it, I feel a bit better if he were to win. I know for certain that a Perry or Santorum would be pushing for their beliefs in laws and policy, which still makes me extremely nervous about Ryan. (could you imagine if Romney were to win, then something happened to him? This country would become a Theocracy!)
Thanks again bunnys. You have been extremely helpful in this discussion. I'll bet you are a great history teacher!:)
I know for certain that a Perry or Santorum would be pushing for their beliefs in laws and policy, which still makes me extremely nervous about Ryan. (could you imagine if Romney were to win, then something happened to him? This country would become a Theocracy!
Just like it did under Kennedy?
Just like it did under Kennedy?
Ahh, but the fundamentalist ARE pushing their philosophies. They ARE trying to write, and rewrite laws. And they have been somewhat successful. Creationism taught in science class? Outlaw abortion? Exempt church related employers from labor laws of the land? Even though many of their employees are not of that church? Unnecessary ultrasound laws? And I can't even begin to tell you how they have inflitrated the military and shaped that work place!
There is a huge difference between hysterical speculation (about Kennedy) and what is really happening (Ryan's Person-hood legislation along with the other things I mentioned)
...
And, for the record, when my mother was in a nursing home two hours away, local Mormons "adopted" her and took her to services every Sunday, all day. They, not I, were with her on her last birthday, giving her a pizza party. She was part of their "family" even though she never converted, nor did they try to persuade her to.
So, if that's the spirit that a candidate, Romney or otherwise, would bring to the presidency, I say, bring it on.
I expect your mother will be posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith; it really wasn't necessary to convert her. They did it to my grandmother, who was raised in a Catholic orphanage and probably would have been a nun if she hadn't married my grandfather. I didn't notice whether they dragged him into the faith (kicking and screaming) as well.
catherine
10-12-12, 2:30pm
I expect your mother will be posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith; it really wasn't necessary to convert her. They did it to my grandmother, who was raised in a Catholic orphanage and probably would have been a nun if she hadn't married my grandfather. I didn't notice whether they dragged him into the faith (kicking and screaming) as well.
That's funny! I never thought of that.. although they were upset when I had her cremated.
I just am eternally grateful that they were able to lift a smidgen of guilt off my shoulders for missing her last birthday--and for filling many of her days in the company of nice people.
I guess I always take the 30,000 foot view of what being a Christian means: you claim yourself to be a disciple of Jesus Christ, and you live out works of mercy. Basically that's it--to me at least.
I agree with you Cathrine. I am not a Christian or religous in any way (I consider myself to be agnostic) but I consider Mormons to be Christians even though I can see how other sects of Christianity may not consider then as such because their dogma is different. But then that can be said (and has been said) about most of the different Christian sects and believes thru out history. Mormons consider the King James version of the bible as part of that dogma, along with their other texts, and the belief in Christ as a messaiah and son of God and having died for humanities sins - albeit with a few differences and twists from fundamental or orthodox christianity. But that's the case with all of the different forms and sects in Christianity. As far a s Mitt, or any other candidate, bringing their religious views into play when making public policy, I think that he, like most others, will take a wider view as to what his constituents and Party want over his own personal beliefs. Of course his beliefs as his Partie sand constituents are probably the same for the most part.
I expect your mother will be posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith; it really wasn't necessary to convert her. They did it to my grandmother, who was raised in a Catholic orphanage and probably would have been a nun if she hadn't married my grandfather. I didn't notice whether they dragged him into the faith (kicking and screaming) as well.
See, actually that part doesn't bother me. I don't believe in any of it so i can look at this from the outside. From the outside i see a religion who actually believes, to it's core, that in order to get into heaven you need to be baptized Mormon, so they quietly do that for as many as they can. That, to me, speaks of actual concern for someones 'soul'. The fact that they don't blow horns and wave flags about it makes it kind of, well (sorry bunnys) charming.
I can see, however, how that would totally piss off others who are believers in other religions, as they take this stuff seriously. To them I say chill out. To the Mormons I say, knock it the hell off!
I fell somewhere between annoyed and amused, but I can put up with such shenanigans in exchange for using their genealogy resources. But now I can't get the image of my extremely proper grandmother as a heavenly sister wife out of my mind. Brain scrub, please.
loosechickens
10-13-12, 12:10am
For those who might be interested, there is quite a long article in this month's Rolling Stone magazine (Oct 25), by a writer whose Mormon ancestors go back practically to the beginning, as Mitt Romney's do. Quite a detailed article, both on history of the Mormon religion, lots on Mitt Romney's father, grandparents, great grandparents, etc., his father's work in civil rights, Mitt Romney's position in the LDS church, how his faith might affect his thinking and positions on issues, etc.
Lots of stuff I didn't know, including details of how in the beginning, it was Joseph Smith's intention that LDS should be something of a Christian communism, and how that viewpoint gradually became lost (although the community in Mexico that Mitt Romney's grandfather was born into was a socialist colony, which seems surprising, given the Republican attitudes today about anything that could ever have had the word socialist attached to it). I found the piece very illuminating, with details of Mormon belief structure that I did not know at all.
And, for those who might be interested, (which I don't see as important, but many ask about it), yes, Mitt Romney DOES wear the sacred underwear.
I'd post a link, but you have to be a subscriber to Rolling Stone to read the articles in the current issue, online. But, I suggest that a stop at the library or Barnes and Noble would be worthwhile, since many seem to have a lot of both misinformation regarding Mormon history and doctrine, or none at all.
loosechickens
10-13-12, 12:39am
Since most of the people I talk to seem overly interested in the sacred underwear that Mitt and Ann Romney (and most devout Mormons, including several friends of ours) wear, here's a link to most all you could want to know about it. Move along.....nothing to see here. It does seem strange to those of us who are not Mormon, but is important to them, and it's hard to see how wearing it is harmful. Interesting, unusual, if you're not a Mormon, but seems relatively harmless to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_garment
http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/viewQuestion.aspx?view=91ec81f5-f806-460e-9565-c4c4fa09c818
Since most of the people I talk to seem overly interested in the sacred underwear that Mitt and Ann Romney (and most devout Mormons, including several friends of ours) wear, here's a link to most all you could want to know about it. Move along.....nothing to see here. It does seem strange to those of us who are not Mormon, but is important to them, and it's hard to see how wearing it is harmful. Interesting, unusual, if you're not a Mormon, but seems relatively harmless to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_garment
http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/viewQuestion.aspx?view=91ec81f5-f806-460e-9565-c4c4fa09c818
Ah, the 'magic' underwear! I have heard of that, but didn't mention it or ask about it cause I thought some might be offended by my asking (which is probably right as some were offended by my simply asking about the religion in general) Not the most attractive garments, but look like they'd be kind of warm in the winter. Might be a little uncomfortable in summer though.
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