Lance Armstrong and the death of heroes [Archive]

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lhamo

10-12-12, 7:44am

So does anybody want to talk about the whole sad Lance Armstrong doping thing? I spent a fair amount of time last night reading through the USADA report, available here:

http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/

I was never a fanatic, but I thought it was pretty cool how he came back after cancer and won so many titles. I really believed he was just an amazing athlete. I guess I assumed all along that the monitoring systems were so good that they would have caught him if he really was doping. But man, this report just blows everything out of the water. If what is presented is accurate, then not just Armstrong but a large proportion of the USPS team's elite members doped systematically and over a very long period. Hormones, steroids, performance enhancing drugs were all used regularly and systematically. Along with things like withdrawing large amounts of of blood and then reinjecting it several days later. You apparently had to dope to be a contender, so they did it. And I'm guessing it probably wasn't too different in the other elite teams.

So is all of sports like this now? I know about Barry Bonds, etc. But how far has this kind of cheating and manipulation penetrated? Is it in every sport? This is what it means to "Live Strong?"

One of the most disturbing aspects of it is how these elite athletes basically let themselves be guinea pigs for doctors who were obessed with finding the best ways to boost performance. Like some macabre elite prison camp in a way. Did they do it willingly? In most cases it seems so, though some of Armstrong's teammates definitely indicated they were pressured by him and the doctors. Man, I hope those doctors are stripped of their licenses. They basically were doing human experimentation without any kind of human subjects protocols or supervision. Like Dr. Frankenstein, 21st century edition. I expect this kind of thing to take place in China, but not on the premier US cycling team.

Anyway, wanted to talk about this but don't have another forum where it seems appropriate, so decided to post it here. Interested to see what others think.

JaneV2.0

10-12-12, 9:18am

I always thought he was a jerk, so I wasn't terribly surprised. I'm not really one for heroes, but if I were, the last place I'd look for them would be in the world of sports.

CathyA

10-12-12, 9:31am

I never liked the feelings I got when I looked at Armstrong or heard him talk.
I find it unbelievable that an entire group of athletes would think this was okay. What good is winning, if you didn't really earn it?
Whenever I hear of some athlete being really great, how can I keep from thinking...........they'll just find out he was doping.
Very sad and sickening.

pinkytoe

10-12-12, 9:49am

He is a hero here in his hometown of Austin. Donations to his foundation doubled after the first bit of news - now I don't know.
I think the whole world of sports and celebrity has become a sham.

iris lily

10-12-12, 9:50am

Mark Macgwire was our town's big hero, beat the world record in baseball home runs in one season. The drama and excitement of that season was a real big deal. Even I was caught up in the excitement. Later I was disappointed when it became clear that he was doping. I consider Roger Maris to be the true home run king, he did it without steroids.

But there still are sports heroes. Kurt Warner, former quarterback for the St. Louis Rams, is one of our town's real heroes. He went from stocking grocery store shelves to quarterbacking at the Superbowl in just a few years, that's a great story. He was all passion and determination. He and his wife Brenda are big St. Louis supporters. Macgwire, on the other hand, never really lived here while he was playing for the Cardinals. He'd play the season and hop the plane for L.A. I'm more ready to throw him under the bus because of that, St. Louis loyalty trumps most things for me. I suppose Warner could have taken steroid during his tenure since it was popular at that time.

I never understood why Congress had to get involved in sports doping. Why have Congressional hearings about this? Why does it rise to the level of Congressional interest? I think they don't have enough to do in their sessions, send them home.

Mrs-M

10-12-12, 9:53am

My husband has always been the driving-force behind sports-talk/steroid-use/enhanced drugs, in our home, and in the case of Lance Armstrong, my husband said (repeatedly), "there is no way one man can pull that off without help". He was right.

Sadly, today, Mr. Armstrong, sits on a fortune, and really, is getting the last laugh. I can only imagine the seething anger so many of the second-place finishers are feeling since all the evidence and findings have surfaced, knowing they were robbed of rightful titles/compensation/rewards.

Lance Armstrong, is an embarrassment to professional sports.

peggy

10-12-12, 10:06am

This really surprised me, as did the MacGwire thing in St. Louis. I don't follow sports, certainly not biking, but I always though they tested these guys pretty carefully. How could all those drugs not be detected? And all those years? And on a really slimy note, did he use his cancer as an 'excuse' if they did find something in his blood/urine?
I suppose all those second place winners can at least take comfort in the knowledge that they were the real winners, although that probably doesn't give them much comfort. I wonder if they can strip him of those wins, at least on paper so to speak, and award them to the second place winners? Of course that begs the question, do they all do it? All teams, worldwide?

Mrs-M

10-12-12, 10:22am

Originally posted by Peggy.
How could all those drugs not be detected? And all those years?It was very sophisticated, which from everything I have seen/listened to (news related), has yet to be released to the public.

lhamo

10-12-12, 10:23am

Well, judging by most of the coverage I am reading these practices were probably pretty widespread at the top levels of cycling, across multiple teams. I read through the whole report, and the doctors involved (there were several) worked for many different teams over time. It also looks like there may have been a bunch of insider dealing going on -- no monetary payments were revealed, but the report kind of insinuates that people in the team had inside connections with the testing agencies and seemed to know in advance when tests were going to be coming (implying someone in the testing agency was getting kickbacks, was my take).

I alternated between thinking he was kind of arrogant (and didn't like that whole "leave your wife and babies for Sheryl Crow" thing at all) and being amazed by his physical performance on the bike. I mean, he could go up mountains on a bike faster than many CARS. I guess that is what the human body can do if you prime all the different possible chemical reactions to the max. Some people argue that it isn't really that different from what athletes do with diet, sleep, and other aspects of their training regimine. But it still makes me feel very sad. I think this piece sums up some of the reasons why nicely:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-moore/lance-armstrong-doping_b_1956742.html

Iris Lily, Kurt Warner was on the University of Washington football team before he went pro so I am also a fan! I'm glad to hear he has a good reputation there.

Mrs. M., re: the "one guy can't do that alone" issue, that is totally true in cycling -- Armstrong wouldn't have won a single title on his own, that just isn't how cycling works. But he was clearly the leader of the pack. And pressured others on the team to take the same drastic measures he was in order to achieve peak performance. One of the saddest stories in the report is of a young guy who was rising fast in cycling when he got a chance to join the USPS team. He was almost immediately told that doping was required if he was going to have a role. His father had been a drug addict, and he was totally clean at that point -- had told himself that he would never use drugs. But he buckled. The lure of being part of that elite circle was just too strong. He cried about it, and always second-guessed himself, and the report says after he had two serious falls during races he wondered if that was the universe's payback to him for breaking his promise to himself.

And all the stories of close friendships ruined by the secrecy, and then the revealing of secrets. Ugly, nasty stuff, all in the name of "success."

I guess there is a simple living angle here after all. It is important to figure out what is "enough" for you in every sense, so that you don't get sucked into chasing after stuff like this and eventually ruining your life and possibly the lives of many, many other people.

lhamo

SteveinMN

10-12-12, 10:30am

Sadly, Armstrong is just the latest in a long parade of cheaters (no, I don't agree that this is a "witch hunt" aimed at him; there's just too much evidence for me to think it's a conspiracy).

Not knowing much about doping, I've done some reading as these scandals have come to light. My conclusion is that doping is a slippery slope. I believe every athlete is looking for an edge. When they are presented with a legal one, be it caffeine or energy drinks or protein/vitamin supplements, they feel okay with pursuing it (I don't think most people would consider drinking a Coke before a game "doping" though it fits the definition). But then it gets more slippery. Hormone therapy or blood doping (taking blood that is then returned to the athlete later for greater oxygen/red blood cell capacity) seems "natural" and more a matter of timing than cheating. But then it goes to other substances of dubious value or safety. And then the fight is on to keep the edge hidden. I'm guessing the push is from the athlete him/herself and not from the doctors, so I don't know how much I could blame the doctors. Their patients certainly seem willing to try. Maybe it's just good that there is a doctor involved rather than the athletes just dosing themselves.

I think the real crime here is that sports has become fetishized in developed cultures. I cannot think of a good reason why the owner of the Minnesota Wild would part with more than 7 million dollars a year for two players while teachers in the Saint Paul school district are paying out of their own pockets for school supplies for poor students -- except that people will pay good money for hockey tickets and yet somehow don't see how an educated populace is good for all of us. And it's not just hockey. Joe Mauer earns 23 million a year playing (or not playing) for the Minnesota Twins. The pressure that kind of money brings to succeed and win -- at pretty much all costs -- is, IMHO, a horrible way to treat people, even if they're not anywhere near doping substances.

JaneV2.0

10-12-12, 10:49am

...
I never understood why Congress had to get involved in sports doping. Why have Congressional hearings about this? Why does it rise to the level of Congressional interest? I think they don't have enough to do in their sessions, send them home.

+1

Gregg

10-12-12, 11:25am

We, as a society, are constantly looking for bigger, better, faster "heroes". If I was a shrink I'd probably be able to make some correlation between that and how most people's lives suck wind. Anyway watching athletes, movie stars, rappers, whatever is a way to give us something to cheer for during the performance and a way to showcase glamour that doesn't really exist when they're off stage. The whole cult of celebrity is obscene to me, but hell, the way our culture works these days I'm more surprised PED's aren't a REQUIREMENT in sports.

Mrs-M

10-12-12, 11:33am

Originally posted by Gregg.
We, as a society, are constantly looking for bigger, better, faster "heroes".Evolution, takes care of that.

JaneV2.0

10-12-12, 11:51am

Gregg

10-12-12, 1:19pm

Evolution, takes care of that.

On the savanna maybe, on TV, not so much.

Gregg

10-12-12, 1:27pm

Real heroes don't get much press, but here's one in the news lately:
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/10/malala-yousafzai-the-girl-shot-by-the-taliban-becomes-a-global-icon/263527/

My nieces, ages 16 and 15, in Peshawar, NWT, Pakistan have been keeping us constantly updated on Malala and the backlash against the Taliban. There is a real hope that the Taliban has finally gone too far and that this might cause enough uproar to at least push them out of the cities and into the tribal lands in the far northwest (or to Afghanistan). It would be great if that happened. We'll see.

Mrs-M

10-12-12, 1:37pm

Originally Posted by Mrs-M
Evolution, takes care of that.

Originally posted by Gregg.
On the savanna maybe, on TV, not so much. Not so. To affirm such, one need not look beyond the past fifty years to see how fast, strong, and big, the human race has become, and how figures in sports have excelled way beyond the realm of what anyone would have ever imagined, and it (we), keep advancing with each generation.

JaneV2.0

10-12-12, 1:55pm

My nieces, ages 16 and 15, in Peshawar, NWT, Pakistan have been keeping us constantly updated on Malala and the backlash against the Taliban. There is a real hope that the Taliban has finally gone too far and that this might cause enough uproar to at least push them out of the cities and into the tribal lands in the far northwest (or to Afghanistan). It would be great if that happened. We'll see.

Every movement needs a martyr, sadly. I do hope this is the beginning of the end for the Taliban.

Weston

10-12-12, 2:47pm

Maybe it's not the "Death of Heroes" but instead maybe a rebirth of looking for heroes in the right places instead of automatically fixating on overpaid athletes and actors. It probably isn't in fact indicative of such a rebirth but it sure would be nice if it was.

Never considered Lance Armstrong a hero. Considered him a guy who admirably fought and won against cancer but who was best known for riding a bicycle really fast.

I still remember getting into an online conversation a few years back with some friends and family regarding a spate of deaths among some celebrities and how sad it was. When I mentioned that I found Henry Gibson funny, and that I liked Mary Travers singing with Peter, Paul and Mary it was still odd to me that nobody mentioned the loss that month of Norman Borlaug. The man generally credited with saving more lives than anyone else in human history.

A distant cousin took the trouble of writing me an email telling me that I was "just being pretentious"

JaneV2.0

10-12-12, 3:28pm

bunnys

10-12-12, 6:09pm

I hate everything about sports and this is one example of why I hate sports. The money and greed begets crazy, indecent, immoral and unethical behavior. And it's present in every single sport I've ever heard of. It's also easy to find plenty of examples from high school lacrosse to professional football.

I never cared about Lance Armstrong or his biking accomplishments. And I don't care that he's corrupted the sport. Anything that could be a nail in the coffin for professional sports sounds good to me.

puglogic

10-12-12, 6:33pm

I think the real crime here is that sports has become fetishized in developed cultures. I cannot think of a good reason why the owner of the Minnesota Wild would part with more than 7 million dollars a year for two players while teachers in the Saint Paul school district are paying out of their own pockets for school supplies for poor students -- except that people will pay good money for hockey tickets and yet somehow don't see how an educated populace is good for all of us.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Steve. Sure, whatever, it's a business, but a business I only rarely give my money. So much suffering in this world, so many people hurting, and I'm supposed to sit down on Sunday and watch a bunch of multi-millionaire crybabies crack each others' skulls to build the bottom line of a few wealthy owners and media companies? Nah. I don't think so.

I respect athletes for working hard to develop their gifts and succeed at the job they get paid for. But more than that, I respect the guy who works two jobs so he can send his kids to college, like my brother, or the teachers who are so devoted to what they do that they'll dig into their own pockets and their own time to help make up for the shortcomings of our stupid electorate.

If people were half as obsessed with building a great life and helping others do the same as they are with sports? We might evolve into something better some day.

Mrs-M

10-12-12, 10:43pm

I wonder where washed-up stars find the courage to face the general public after such judgments. The shame and embarrassment.

SteveinMN

10-13-12, 1:24pm

I wonder where washed-up stars find the courage to face the general public after such judgments. The shame and embarrassment.
I believe that they believe, in their heart of hearts, that they've done nothing wrong. So why be embarrassed? Armstrong has already derided this as a "witch hunt".

A great quote I saw once, at least somewhat related to this:
If Americans expended even a fraction of the energy on civic engagement that we spend on consumer ideology, our democracy would be much healthier. Can you imagine people camping out to vote?

Mrs-M

10-13-12, 1:52pm

Originally posted by SteveinMN.
I believe that they believe, in their heart of hearts, that they've done nothing wrong. So why be embarrassed? Armstrong has already derided this as a "witch hunt".I'm thinking a recoil-response in an attempt to preserve the riches/title they acquired to falsely. Shameful to say the least.

Florence

10-13-12, 2:15pm

Mrs-M

10-13-12, 2:26pm

Sadly, you need not delve far into the world of sports to see that sports related success isn't about title, so much as it is about greed/personal wealth, and for that reason (alone) I have no use for professional sports.

Look what's happened to the NHL Season. GREED! But I'll leave that to my husband to rant about.

Fawn

10-13-12, 9:53pm

I have no personal interest in sports and am one of the least competative persons you will ever know....BUT my eldest son is a university baseball coach and my middle son is a high school athlete...and here are the benefits that I see to their endevors--

Working with a team for common goals teaches us how to work with others and self discipline.

Self disipline in one area gives a person confidence about discipline in other areas. So... if you are good in football or track, you learn what you need to do to get good grades and even what is needed to have positive relationships. It is not a perfect 100% correlation...but it is verifiable....work hard in one life area...success....work hard in other life areas...SUCCESS!

Doping is cheating. Everybody knows this. Those that dope and those that do not. DUH!

bunnys

10-13-12, 10:09pm

[QUOTE=Fawn;105752]I have no personal interest in sports and am one of the least competative persons you will ever know....BUT my eldest son is a university baseball coach and my middle son is a high school athlete...and here are the benefits that I see to their endevors--

Working with a team for common goals teaches us how to work with others and self discipline.
QUOTE]

There are lots of ways to learn self-discipline that don't involve killing, wiping the floor with, smashing, destroying, annihilating or humiliating your "opponent." I teach high school. Yesterday a kid came to school with a bunch of camoflage that duck hunters wear. I asked him why he was wearing it and he said tonight was the football game against this weeks rival, Bird High School. He said he was going "bird hunting."

And why are professional athletes who get an obscene salary to pay the taxes on the obscene corporate sponsorship contracts they sign made out to be "heros" anyway? I don't think that's the correct definition of the word.

mtnlaurel

10-14-12, 8:32am

One Word = SPORTSMANSHIP

I love sports. Sports helped me tremendously through a very troubled childhood.
Being on a team - training with friends, fresh air, sunshine, laughs, challenging myself, following through, staying focused.
Competing - holding your head high if you lose, identifying your weaknesses and working on them. Winning with grace.

I also loved doing things other than sports, but sports were a physical manifestation of me as a person and a great place to put my energy.

I also love Christmas, but mass consumerism is doing all it can to ruin that too.

I don't follow Cycling so I can't comment on Lance Armstrong, but it's an infraction of basic sports ettiquette..... Don't Cheat.

puglogic

10-14-12, 10:55am

I have no issue with sports in general, as an activity that builds health, teaches teamwork, builds community, etc. I think people should be involved in some kind of sport their whole lives, whether it's solo (jogging) or team (softball).

I have issues with PROFESSIONAL sports, which is an industry designed to make lots and lots of money. I think it's important to differentiate here.

pinkytoe

10-14-12, 11:32am

Regarding Lance, there has been VERY little press about his situation here in his home town. His brand is just too important I guess.