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Tussiemussies
10-16-12, 4:40am
http://www.bankrate.com/finance/real-estate/6-worst-home-fixes-for-the-money-1.aspx

Zoebird
10-16-12, 5:51am
I wonder what the top 6 good investments would be?

When we moved out of our place, just after the housing crash, we were able to get our full asking price, which was pretty high considering the market value and how much we had paid down. We sold in one day.

We spent $2000 preparing the house, which was mostly having rooms painted, fixing up the master bathroom (bathtub was chipping and needed to be replaced), and getting an inexpensive corian countertop (cream/white, which was an "off cut" that happened to be perfect for our kitchen). This included the labor for all of this as well -- since I was too busy with baby, working, rhinovirus/swine flu, and getting the immigration paperwork together.

I figure that the two real estate agents decided that it was a good deal, and we got what we wanted for the place. Personally, I would have asked for $10k more, but DH went with his friend (our agent's) advice, and . . . well, they did take it at asking price.

peggy
10-16-12, 9:12am
An interesting list. I did like the study, to be honest, but I have bookcases and books scattered on all 3 floors and would love one place to corral it all. Actually, i do have a space but not the inclination to tackle that project.
It would never occur to me to upscale my garage! Maybe that's a guy thing.

Float On
10-16-12, 9:23am
I still want the sunroom addition on the back of this house - couldn't hurt because it would become an actual dining room instead of our current situaion where we have to move the table to eat.

Miss Cellane
10-16-12, 10:28am
Well, they were mostly talking about top-of-the-line additions to your home. The article admits that you can make the same functional changes for less money, and it might be a good idea. Don't put on a addition for a new bathroom, just use some existing space for one, for example.

I'm always torn on articles like this. True, adding a backup generator may not pay off with more money when you sell your house. But if you live in an area where you get lots of blackouts, and you are on the street where the power gets reconnected last in your town, you may reap non-monetary benefits from that generator--heat in the winter, not loosing all the food in your refrigerator and freezer, not having to go stay in a motel for two or three days.

If you are a family of six, living in a 1950s Cape Cod, with only one bathroom and it's on the second floor, putting in a first floor power room could solve a lot of bathroom problems, especially in the morning when everyone is trying to get out of the house on time.

If you are making changes to your house solely to increase it's value on resale, this article has good information. If you are making changes to your house so that it improves your quality of life, this article doesn't have much to offer.

Gregg
10-16-12, 10:58am
I wonder what the top 6 good investments would be?


1. New (or re-faced) kitchen cabinets
2. New kitchen counter tops
3. Remodel a dated bathroom
4. Replacing worn or stained carpet
5. Update landscaping (prune, clean, edge, plant flowers, etc.)
6. Paint, inside or out

Refinishing old wood floor if you have them can give you a great return. If your appliances are old replacing them can give you a good return as well, but its not cheap. If the appliances are in good shape, but ugly, they can also be painted fairly inexpensively. The rules for most remodelers wanting a high return is to concentrate on kitchens and baths inside and curb appeal outside. Simple, cheap carpet and paint is usually enough for the rest of the house.

Mrs-M
10-16-12, 11:04am
There is an enormous teetering of give and take (and priorities) Re: this one, particularly for those in need of certain additions/upgrades, as Miss Cellane mentioned. EVERYTHING DOES NOT ALWAYS HAVE TO EQUATE AND REVOLVE AROUND PROFIT AND RETURN. Money, money, money... that's all articles and people worry about today. It's so grinding.

My husband brought up an important little something (big something) related to just this, and that was, "if you're paying a mortgage and looking to improve your home environment to best suit your needs and provide you with a sense of happiness and contentment, then do it, money be damned", and I agree with him 100%!

We take nothing to the grave with us, and aside from equity and net worth (while we're alive), which really means nothing, what difference does it make how much things (anything) costs?

I know in speaking for us as a family, if we had a home that would provide us with $500K (free and clear cash) upon it's sale, yet only $450K if we took on a few pricey improvements, then http://ic.hobh.org/forums/images/smilies/whoopdedoo1.gif, so we get only $450K upon the sale of our home...

I honestly believe there are people out there who go without, do without, and forgo projects, upgrades, and improvements to their home, all because they might not get back that extra $10K- $30K, and that's pathetic.

early morning
10-16-12, 12:23pm
+1 what Mrs-M said.
Frankly, I rather resent the "upgrading" for resale mindset, other than cleaning, decluttering, and painting. If it was good enough for me.... why not for someone else? ;) No matter what we do to this place, it's only going to appeal to people of a certain mind-set - it's huge, old, great original unpainted woodwork, very odd layout compared to modern homes, high ceilings, etc. It's not going to appeal to someone who likes new anything, or the sameness of suburbia, or isn't willing to put up with a bit of maintenance in return for living awash in history, new kitchen counters notwithstanding. In talking with people who are old-home hunting, the bones of a structure, and it's overall feeling and character, are much more important than flooring, cabinetry, and counter-tops. Old house people seem to have their own ideas of what's appropriate, and they don't seem to follow the decorating magazines too closely, in my experience. Of course, we're kinda a strange bunch.

redfox
10-16-12, 12:50pm
From the article....

"Who doesn't want to wake up in a five-star-hotel-quality suite with an attached spa bathroom and a kitchenette that affords you coffee and pastries before facing the world?"

Ummm.... Me! This is my idea of a nightmare. In fact, none of these so-called investments have any appeal to me whatsoever.

Our upgrades have been to insulate & rough finish the garage for an art studio, put up a 56sf, five sided cedar garden house built to residential construction standards (i.e. insulated & finished, including a gorgeous vintage copper chandelier bought second hand), and a gas heated, 500 gallon round cedar hot tub in a bamboo grove. Plus lots of beautiful hardscaping & gardens. Inside, we've added a Rais wood stove, painted, and taken good care of it all.

Everything we've done over the 11 years we've been there has been done & built by the two of us, and about half of it with recycled, found, traded, or second hand sourced materials. It's a beautiful place! It does help to live with an experienced builder... I love my modest, comfy, welcoming home.

The garden house kit. We bought it about 7 years ago:
http://www.summerwood.com/plans/sheds/index.html

We bought the Catalina model, and changed it around so that the door & windows are rounded, the roof overhang is deeper, and the windows are tall. The roof has a cap & finial that my husband made out of a piece of copper that a gutter maker gave me. He shaped a five piece, scallop edged cap, rivited it, and made a finial out of a purple glass doorknob.

The trim around the door & windows is a blue/grey translucent finish. Inside, the walls are plywood that I painted with blue milk paint, so it looks like the sky with clouds. My then 14 year old stepson laid a T & G bamboo floor of remnant pieces from a bigger project. The ceiling is finished with old growth cedar T& G reclaimed flooring that we gof off craigslist & refinished, pu lled all the nails, etc. It's fully permitted, and the building inspector said it was the smallest building he'd ever signed off on!

The garden house is both the changing room for the hot tub, and has a double bed futon couch in it, as guest space.the bed unfolds to just the length of the garden house, with enough room to get out of bed & open the door. It's my quiet meditation spot too... I love it!

Gregg
10-16-12, 12:57pm
Like it or not a home is the biggest single investment most people have. Once someone gets to be my age (50's) or older its logical to start thinking about where you want to settle down for many years. On average younger folks in today's world have to be more dynamic. Jobs, family, education, etc. are all common reasons why people move. Other than folks who do it for a living I don't see many people opting for or against a project strictly because it doesn't make a list, but a lot of them do add that as one criterion when prioritizing projects. That is only smart, frugal, simple, prudent or whatever other adjective you wish to insert to denote responsible management of one's finances. On the other end, if you are selling and know that renovating your kitchen will net you an extra $40K, but only cost you $20K then why wouldn't you consider doing it even if you think the existing kitchen is fine? It's an investment after all.

DW and I are renovating the house we expect to be spending many years in right now. It's getting all the bells and whistles, many of which we would not recover the cost of if we sold anytime soon. We are in a position to do that and so consider those options as luxury purchases. The house is not our biggest asset and those expenditures do not effect our FI so we are comfortable with them. If we were younger or feeling less secure about our finances the house would still be a warm and comfortable place, but it would not have the same level of finish. A big part of the reason we are able to do this now is because we paid attention to market demands when it came time to renovate or sell previous houses. I'm at the front of the quality of life argument, but in addition to those who simply say do what you like there is another side that says if its not going to make life better, why do it? The sunroom of your dreams might make it better, but so might having more resources available when it comes time to build your real dream house. Money doesn't buy happiness, but getting a better return on investment can certainly help with quality of life issues down the road.

Gregg
10-16-12, 1:02pm
From the article....

"Who doesn't want to wake up in a five-star-hotel-quality suite with an attached spa bathroom and a kitchenette that affords you coffee and pastries before facing the world?"

Ummm.... Me! This is my idea of a nightmare.

Life is funny isn't it? The whole spa thing is DW to a T (I don't care much one way or the other). No coffee bar in the new master suite because our kitchen will only be 20' away, but other than that its spa all the way.

redfox
10-16-12, 1:12pm
Life is funny isn't it? The whole spa thing is DW to a T (I don't care much one way or the other). No coffee bar in the new master suite because our kitchen will only be 20' away, but other than that its spa all the way.

I'm glad she can get what she wants! Value is so subjective. Our money mostly goes into the outside, as I've described. I don't care if we get our money back on it all, because it's for us now, and it may be for us for the long haul. If we do sell, I hope it's to someone who appreciates our slightly rural, hippie aesthetic...

SteveinMN
10-16-12, 1:38pm
+1 what Mrs-M said.
Frankly, I rather resent the "upgrading" for resale mindset, other than cleaning, decluttering, and painting. If it was good enough for me.... why not for someone else? ;)
We are now in house #4 plus the two I've purchased as rental properties. As you say, the critical things ought to be the bones of the house (and by that I include the integrity of structural components like plumbing and the foundation). But my experience is that many people cannot see past things which sellers, in particular, automatically filter out of their vision. They cannot envision what a room would look like with paint or stain changes, or what knocking down a non-load-bearing wall might do for a space, or what changing out the carpet for a different color or different floor altogether might do for a room. My ex-wife and I bought one home she initially refused to walk into because she didn't like the color.:doh: Paint is cheap! And it turned out she loved the house; even more so once it was repainted (which it needed anyway). So I've learned that, besides making the place neat and clean, avoiding some deal-killers like strong colors or unusual materials will help a house sell -- or at least won't make buyers subtract from the sale price far more than it actually costs to remediate the situation.

Personally, I wish sellers would leave stuff alone. I don't want them to replace a deep-pink carpet with nondescript beige just for show because I probably won't want the beige, but would not want to tear out brand-new carpet to put in something I liked. Similarly, they have every incentive to just slap it down or get a job done quick and dirty (they don't have to live with the results) and that's not my style at all.

We have refaced the cabinets, replaced the countertop, and replaced the flooring in the entire house (most of it really needed it anyway). Most of the money we've spent, though, has been on stuff which isn't "sexy" (additional insulation in the attic; proper grading outside the house, new concrete patio and steps, new doors) but will lower the cost of running the house over time. I'm a great fan of Le Corbusier's "machine for living" philosophy. This house has it in spades. A charmer on the market? It's neat and clean and looks put-together (though it still is, as my wife observes, a "man's house"). It won't charm the casual observer. But it will show well to a thinking home buyer.

Rosemary
10-16-12, 1:39pm
I'm going to quote this again:

"Who doesn't want to wake up in a five-star-hotel-quality suite with an attached spa bathroom and a kitchenette that affords you coffee and pastries before facing the world?"
... because here's the irony that I see:
People buy huge houses and then they "need" refrigerators and coffee makers on each floor, or they "need" a cabin or cottage to get away from it all --- all the chores and cleaning associated with a huge house!

Whereas in a small house, everything is close and cozy. Our house IS our "cabin." I can clean it from top to bottom in about 2 hours (but I also work fast). I don't need to get away from it, nor do I "need" to repeat functions within the space.

Anyway, while I agree that the projects as discussed in the article are unlikely to pay off, I also believe that there are more cost-effective ways to approach those same things. We re-did a bathroom a few years ago, and this year we added a 3-season porch, and neither project came anywhere near the numbers cited in the article. Of course, we are making these changes to a house of modest proportion, and some of the "sun porches" used in calculating the cost are probably larger than our entire house.

ApatheticNoMore
10-16-12, 2:10pm
I'm going to quote this again:

"Who doesn't want to wake up in a five-star-hotel-quality suite with an attached spa bathroom and a kitchenette that affords you coffee and pastries before facing the world?"

My diagnosis for someone who talks like that is: you need to take more vacations! Because really accept no imitations! :), or don't try to make your abode into a vacation, it won't work. But if you take more vacations you can really wake up in a hotel suite (5 star if you insist I guess). Doesn't have to be elaborate, a few hours out of town on a weekend will do, I'm really not talking trips to Europe here. A pastry every day before facing the world, I mean it sounds nice mind you, I'm not always abstinate from them, but all the time before facing the world, it seems a sure way to end up gaining 20 pounds.

I do sometimes feel a need to get away from my abode, an apartment is pretty small, frankly houses have better layouts, I do sometimes feel a bit hemmed in, and I miss outdoor space (of course there are parks nearby and so on).

ToomuchStuff
10-16-12, 2:58pm
There is a lot I don't get about that. Where are their facts and figures? (home sizes, costs from what states, etc). Also, while I know one family who doubled the size of their house, in a high end area of CA, most people I know wouldn't do those things.


I honestly believe there are people out there who go without, do without, and forgo projects, upgrades, and improvements to their home, all because they might not get back that extra $10K- $30K, and that's pathetic.
The ones I know that do that, are quite simply because they can't afford it. I have no problems with that, as situations change over time. It is a lot different when your young, starting out and don't have money saved, then when your older and have learned more about your abilities and your limitations. I bet you would agree, that it is different when your in your 20's and a first home, then when you have money aside and are looking at a home to retire into.

Homes being the biggest investment, to mean seems to really be the wrong way to think about it and I haven't ever really understood that. A HOUSE can be an investment. You expect positive returns on your investments, so you would buy them in a good area, with higher rents, etc. A HOME is supposed to be where you hang your hat, raise a family (if so inclined), etc. Houses are on every corner, and a home is what you make of it. I do know people who have bought homes in more distressed area's because of various reasons (close to something, lifestyle choice, home styles (3 season porch, where they push them now as sunrooms for the same function)). Looking at it more that way (lifestyle choice costs) makes more sense then looking at it as investment choices.
I agree on the generator comment, as I have family that lives in the country and several homes in their area have smaller backup generators (large enough for heating/cooling and food storage, with a few/bathroom lights), but not whole house generators. But again, I see that more as a lifestyle/comfort choice then an investment. Adding another bathroom? Most I see are not a full bath, but a partial, when they do something like finish a basement (which I can't stand, I want unfinished), in which case they tend to get more out of that bathroom, then they do the finished basement. Kind of like a swimming pool (it is either love or hate, and I am the later).
The garage, normally is a man thing. It is a place to work and have a shop, although driving around I see SO many that are just storage lockers and the cars are out front. I would like a larger one as in my area, the garages (one micro car garage, if you have one) were built for model T's and won't hold a lot of today's cars. Even newer houses, have height issues with today's suv's (and a simple redesign at planning time could correct most of those)
There is a lot that are choices, their "who wouldn't want to wake up" comment, uhm, some of us think you shouldn't have a tv in the bedroom.(don't need or want the other stuff) How many formal dining rooms, go unused (turn them into the library/den/office),etc.

Mighty Frugal
10-19-12, 9:46pm
+1 what Mrs-M said.
Frankly, I rather resent the "upgrading" for resale mindset, other than cleaning, decluttering, and painting. If it was good enough for me.... why not for someone else? ;) No matter what we do to this place, it's only going to appeal to people of a certain mind-set - it's huge, old, great original unpainted woodwork, very odd layout compared to modern homes, high ceilings, etc. It's not going to appeal to someone who likes new anything, or the sameness of suburbia, or isn't willing to put up with a bit of maintenance in return for living awash in history, new kitchen counters notwithstanding. In talking with people who are old-home hunting, the bones of a structure, and it's overall feeling and character, are much more important than flooring, cabinetry, and counter-tops. Old house people seem to have their own ideas of what's appropriate, and they don't seem to follow the decorating magazines too closely, in my experience. Of course, we're kinda a strange bunch.

I am dying to walk through this home of yours. The 'very odd layout' has me intrigued!

Zoebird
10-21-12, 6:23am
My husband brought up an important little something (big something) related to just this, and that was, "if you're paying a mortgage and looking to improve your home environment to best suit your needs and provide you with a sense of happiness and contentment, then do it, money be damned", and I agree with him 100%!


I would say, though, for anyone looking to sell in a couple of years (to downsize or what have you), it's good to know where to spend your cash. Gregg's list is great because it's basically what we did. In 2006, we had our crappy carpet replaced with a high quality laminate throughout the house, and then right before we sold we did some minor fixes on his list as they were relevant. It was a condo, so we couldn't do much for curb appeal, but I did have a little potted garden and I kept it clean and tidy and pretty So that probably didn't hurt. And, the $2k wasn't that much to spend, really considering it included labor!

But, on the flip side of this, my dream kitchen is really stupid. I mean, from an ROI point of view.

I love industrial, commercial kitchens. Clean, simple, organized. When DH and I stay in our favorite hostels, they always have these sorts of kitchens. It's essentially a stainless steel countertop/sink that is held up on stainless steal legs with shelves beneath. Then, dishes, pots and pans, even a wooden container for silverware is all put on these shelves. Add a simple stove/oven (stainless is nice to match) and a small fridge, as well as a shelf of the stainless running above the countertop (long wall), and you have a place for all of your jars and the like. I'd have mine have a "lip" -- or really make it like a box with a 2-3 inch side -- so that the jars and everything will be held up there in case of earth quake. :)

I'd use cool wooden crates to store fruit and veggies on the shelves beneath as well. Everything organized, everything visible.

Other people HATE this. HATE.

Relatively, it's inexpensive if you are doing a kitchen from scratch or need a reno and can't rescue the cabinets. My friend had one put in his office (just as I said here -- probably about a 12 ft space along a wall), and the whole kaboodle cost him $2k. That's *cheap* for a whole kitchen. it's so functional though. And it's clean, easy to clean, minimalist, and pretty (shiny!).

But everyone I know just HATES it. HATE.

So, you know, the first thing an agent would say is "you have to replace this kitchen." Bah! No. let them replace it with some stupid $10-20,000 kitchen.

At a certain level, if it's yours, you need to do what you want and what you like and waht works for you. our kitchen -- as it is now doesnt work that great for us. But, we're getting more and more used to working with it, and I think some shelving (with a lip!) will work well for us. I just need to have someone put it together for me.

early morning
10-21-12, 11:13am
Mighty Frugal, you're welcome to drop by anytime you find yourself in west central Ohio. But perhaps I used the wrong wording - it's not all that odd by old house standards, just by modern ones. The (added on) bathroom is off the dining room, so if anyone needs it during a holiday dinner, one whole side of the table gets up and moves... and if you're going to *ahem* be noisy or smelly, a climb up the back, steep steps is in order. There, the original (but not there when house was built) bath will allow all sounds and such to waft into the kitchen, via the open convection register from kitchen to upstairs bath. All downstairs rooms have a minimum of two doors - one has five - and all walls but the front stairs-hall have multiple windows. The windows are all of differing sizes - as are many of the doors - standard sizes were not de rigueur in the 1860s :laff:. My longest unbroken stretch of wall in an actual room is six foot. The sofa has no where else to go.... the next longest stretch is about 4'6". Furniture placement is tricky.... But we love this place and have no plans to upgrade anything but insulation in the near future! Well, maybe the kitchen floor; I'm intrigued by the paper floor covering that someone here posted.
Zoebird, I think that sounds a lovely kitchen! I couldn't live in it - open anything and cats are a bad mix, especially around food, IMHO - but I love the look of commercial kitchens, so efficient and bright!

Mrs-M
10-21-12, 6:29pm
Originally posted by Early Morning.
The (added on) bathroom is off the dining room, so if anyone needs it during a holiday dinner, one whole side of the table gets up and moves... and if you're going to *ahem* be noisy or smelly, a climb up the back, steep steps is in order. There, the original (but not there when house was built) bath will allow all sounds and such to waft into the kitchen, via the open convection register from kitchen to upstairs bath.http://ic.hobh.org/forums/images/smilies/lol%20%282%29.gif You crack me up, EM!

Mrs-M
10-21-12, 6:30pm
ToomuchStuff and Zoebird, excellent points. It really is such an individual thing, isn't it.