View Full Version : Death of the English Language
San Onofre Guy
10-19-12, 5:11pm
I happen to work in one of the larger cities in Southern California. I bank with Wells Fargo and frequent their main branch in town near my office. I have noticed in the past two months that I am very much in the minority. Wells Fargo caters to non-English speakers. When at the teller window I typically hear a foreign language, spanish being spoken on one side of me often on both sides. I also notice that the greeter at the bank along with the tellers greet people who look Hispanic in this foreign language.
I am not opposed to private businesses speaking spanish to customers if their customers cannot speak English. What frustrates me is that instead of starting out in English and switching to spanish if the person's english isn't good, they don't even try. Historically non-english speaking immigrants emphsized learning english to become successfull and almost forced their children to learn english sometimes at the expense of their mother tongue. Today business does not assist recent immigrants in learning the language of society which in turn limits their children from mastering an admittadly difficult language.
Today for the first time I began conducting my business in the bank in french. Tellers can understand what I want but no one can speak french to me. My french is not the best, but this is how I am going to improve my language skills. When I go to a store in the future that places an emphasis on speaking a foreign language. I will speak back to them in a language that is foreign to them.
Today business does not assist recent immigrants in learning the language of society which in turn limits their children from mastering an admittadly difficult language.
The purpose of business in general isn't to provide language instruction. It is to provide goods and services to customers. If a business decides operating primarily in Tagalog or whatever is better for business, that's just peachy.
When I go to a store in the future that places an emphasis on speaking a foreign language. I will speak back to them in a language that is foreign to them.
Ha'aheo no paha 'oe i kena papale kupalaka, pehea la.
Here's an international context: we're the only western indutrialized country that doesn't teach or expect everyone to know at least two languages as a matter of course! The residents of European countries are largely mutli-lingual. The US is highly provincial in this regard, in my opinion.
I come from a family of linguists & immigrants. In three generations of our family, these languages are spoken: English, French, Italian, Arabic (Egyptian, Jordanian, & Iraqi), Spanish (Mexican, Guatemalan & Salvadorean), German, and ASL.
Seattle public schools has 111 languages represented here! There are 9 languages on my block alone, and tonight I head to a Neighborhood Night where at least five of those languages will be interpreted to resident Native speakers, so that we can communicate well. (Likely to be Vietnamese, Mandarin, Tigrina, Somali, and Arabic.)
We dedicate a portion of our budget to make sure everyone has access. It makes for good neighborhoods! Plus, I am starting a Community Kitchen in our larger neighborhood, and I cannot wait to learn how to cook some of the food my neighbors have brought with them to the US.
Because of the rabid anti-immigrant backlash in the US, particularly directed towards Latino/as & Arabs, which is a majority of my family, I am always very happy to hear both Spanish & Arabic spoken in public & places of business. I think this makes our country a better place, and all of us a bit more educated.
Here's a international context: we're the only western indutrialized country that doesn't teach or expect everyone to know at least two languages as a matter of course! The residents of European countries are largely mutli-lingual. The US is highly provincial in this regard, in my opinion.
My daughter has been investigating which colleges she is interested in. Most of them seem to expect that you have a second language. So I suspect the tide is turning. Though I've seen constant pressure in our local public school to cut language programs, and there certainly isn't much diversity left - my daughter's school offers only Spanish, my high school offered French, German, Latin/Greek, Spanish, and Chinese.
Heck, when I was in elementary school, in small-town Ohio, we had a French language immersion program available.
I interact quite often with native Spanish speakers whose families have lived within the US borders since before there was a USA, so I get a bit miffed when I hear the constant "immigrants should just learn English" line - to these folks, *we* are the immigrants, and until quite recently, their remote settlements had little need of English.
Can't we all just get along?
ApatheticNoMore
10-19-12, 6:48pm
Here's a international context: we're the only western indutrialized country that doesn't teach or expect everyone to know at least two languages as a matter of course! The residents of European countries are largely mutli-lingual. The US is highly provincial in this regard, in my opinion.
It will be useful when we travel the world on our 4 to 6 weeks vacation. Oh wait that will happen the 12th of Nevuary (as in Never!). So being that we mostly don't travel and in many cases can't (VERY little vacation time - best time to travel is to hope to encounter in your life various periods of unemployment, also very costly to travel etc.) Spanish is definitely the most useful second language.
My high school only offered Spanish and French. There were not any other choices. It could be down to just Spanish now. The schools haven't been good since before I was born probably.
catherine
10-19-12, 7:05pm
High school is too late. The brain is wired to soak up any language you might need until you're about twelve.. by then all the dendrites that facilitate learning multiple languages have shriveled up. It's really not the smartest thing that we wait until high school to teach our students a second language. In fact, it's a shame. How many millions of people who took 2-3 years of a language in high school are able to really use it?
I agree that there should be more programs in elementary schools for second language learning
San Onofre Guy
10-19-12, 7:05pm
I am a huge supporter of teaching other languages and in fact think that all school children should be taught a foreign language beginning in Kindergarten. Society is becoming more complex and the need to be fluent, not just conversant in english in both the US and worldwide is becoming more and more important. When people live in a society in which english is the predominant language, by and large a person is more successfull and has an easier life if they are fluent in english. Raising children in a society in which english is the rule and not having the children learn english before age 5 puts those children at a great disadvantage. If I as a native english speaker moved to Paris and had young children, you can bet that they would be speaking and reading french before age 5.
Again, older immigrants may never learn English to your satisfaction. Their children will certainly speak it fluently. It has always been this way. There are plenty of native English speakers in this country whose mastery of the language is questionable. I thought that was what you were talking about.
I think it's unlikely that English will be replaced by some other language in our lifetimes, but if that's the natural course of events, so what?
awakenedsoul
10-19-12, 8:02pm
San Onofre Guy,
I live in Southern CA, too. I know what you mean. I felt the same way at Chase, and I switched to a credit union. I've noticed here that when I'm in shops that some of the employees go out of their way to greet anyone who looks Hispanic in Spanish, and start up a conversation in Spanish. I think this is a new technique being used to build business. It's deliberate. I speak enough to communicate well with people who don't speak English, and am fine about doing that if they need it. Everything at Chase is printed in Spanish. At Costco, I overheard a customer say very loudly, "Oh, you speak Spanish, Good!" (As if it should be required in LA.) I understand that English is a difficult language. Spanish was easy for me to learn, and it's consistent, grammatically.
When I worked as an asst. director in Germany I didn't speak German and people there asked me why I didn't learn it. (They spoke perfect English.) I told them I was going home after the run, and that I didn't want to spend all day in school and all night at the theater. (It was a very high pressure job. I was responsible for 100 dancers and singers.) Had I stayed, I definitely would have learned the language. I was impressed with Americans who were fluent. I did learn enough to conduct rehearsals in German.
...I've noticed here that when I'm in shops that some of the employees go out of their way to greet anyone who looks Hispanic in Spanish, and start up a conversation in Spanish. I think this is a new technique being used to build business. It's deliberate. ....
Maybe not. My partner also likes to speak Spanish to people we encounter who look Hispanic. I think he just likes an opportunity to converse in what was, after all, his first tongue. If you don't use your languages, it's easy to lose them.
Today business does not assist recent immigrants in learning the language of society which in turn limits their children from mastering an admittadly difficult language.
.
What does that mean exactly? How have businesses in the past "Assisted" immigrants in learning the "language of society"?
Here's an international context: we're the only western indutrialized country that doesn't teach or expect everyone to know at least two languages as a matter of course! The residents of European countries are largely mutli-lingual. The US is highly provincial in this regard, in my opinion.
I come from a family of linguists & immigrants. In three generations of our family, these languages are spoken: English, French, Italian, Arabic (Egyptian, Jordanian, & Iraqi), Spanish (Mexican, Guatemalan & Salvadorean), German, and ASL.
Seattle public schools has 111 languages represented here! There are 9 languages on my block alone, and tonight I head to a Neighborhood Night where at least five of those languages will be interpreted to resident Native speakers, so that we can communicate well. (Likely to be Vietnamese, Mandarin, Tigrina, Somali, and Arabic.)
We dedicate a portion of our budget to make sure everyone has access. It makes for good neighborhoods! Plus, I am starting a Community Kitchen in our larger neighborhood, and I cannot wait to learn how to cook some of the food my neighbors have brought with them to the US.
Because of the rabid anti-immigrant backlash in the US, particularly directed towards Latino/as & Arabs, which is a majority of my family, I am always very happy to hear both Spanish & Arabic spoken in public & places of business. I think this makes our country a better place, and all of us a bit more educated.
I have found that this argument, or thought is often received quite hostiley from Americans who hear it. "Who cares what other countries do?" This is AMERICA.
I have found that this argument, or thought is often received quite hostiley from Americans who hear it. "Who cares what other countries do?" This is AMERICA.
Perhaps by some stereotyped vision of "Americans".
This American does business with people in many foreign lands, and finds it handy to speak their languages.
Then again, I spoke several non-English languages semi-fluently before I hit middle school.
My daughter is in high school, and must have some learning disability, she only knows 4ish languages.
What does that mean exactly? How have businesses in the past "Assisted" immigrants in learning the "language of society"?
My partner entered the first grade speaking little or no English. His family spoke Spanish at home (because his father was monolingual). He learned English via the tried and true immersion method: "Welcome to your neighborhood school. Sink or swim!" He speaks accent-free fluent English. None of his offspring speaks a word of Spanish, which I think is a rotten shame.
This is such a non-issue. KIDS WILL LEARN THE LANGUAGE. PERIOD.
Today business does not assist recent immigrants in learning the language of society which in turn limits their children from mastering an admittadly difficult language.
Having lived in SoCal I would say that Spanish IS the "language of society" for a large percentage of those living there.
Before I moved overseas I had the same stereotype of "Why don't they speak English?" Now I've realized how ignorant I was. And how bad it is for our country to not teach foreign languages from an early age.
As far as the death of the English language...I am often asked if I teach English and will I teach them/their children/grandchilden?
My partner entered the first grade speaking little or no English. His family spoke Spanish at home (because his father was monolingual). He learned English via the tried and true immersion method: "Welcome to your neighborhood school. Sink or swim!" He speaks accent-free fluent English. None of his offspring speaks a word of Spanish, which I think is a rotten shame.
This is such a non-issue. KIDS WILL LEARN THE LANGUAGE. PERIOD.
I'm still trying to get my head around the Businesses assisting thingy.
I'm still trying to get my head around the Businesses assisting thingy.
When I was a teenager in San Diego, the local neighborhood fast-food restaurant assisted me in learning Spanish when they refused to hire me because I didn't speak it. Gave me some motivation, that did :-)
gimmethesimplelife
10-20-12, 12:20am
I have a different take on this issue from what others have posted here. I very much see knowing some Spanish as - I don't know - sort of like insurance in a way - it to me is the language of affordable medical and dental, living in a border state like I do. It is very true that I can go to Los Algodones and see a primary care doctor or pharmacist or optician or dentist and not need to speak a word of Spanish - and will save major dollars in the process.
That having been said, however, when I recently went to Mexicali for an ultrasound (something you can't get in Los Algodones), I had a bit of a problem in the hospital finding someone who spoke English. It was so surreal as I was on Madero, which runs parallel to the border, and was maybe 1/10 of a mile if that from the border fence, but yes indeed I was truly in another country and as a guest in that country, noone was under any obligation to speak English to me. BTW cost of the ultrasound - $58.50 in cash. If this isn't incentive to learn some Spanish, what is? It was so surreal as the bathroom was impecabbly spotless and when I walked up to admissions, there was a huge Mexican flag right behind the desk, and there I was, a refugee from American health care, stumbling and bumbling in my very lame Spanish. I am very grateful that one of the housekeepers noticed - someone who spoke excellent English - and made my life much easier for me by intervening. Lesson here - it really would be in my best interest, especially with some of the beliefs I hold, to learn more Spanish!!!!!
I had been to Mexicali before for healthcare but this time wanted to be much closer to the border as there were issues with someone close to my family passing away so I kind of just winged it......great hospital I went to but yep, best to speak decent Spanish.....Rob
Miss Cellane
10-20-12, 7:53am
Europeans tend to live very near other countries where other languages are spoken. They have a chance to practice the languages they study.
In the US, there are a great many people who will never leave the country, ever. Who may never venture up to Canada or down to Mexico, because it will take over a day to travel there. It is very difficult to keep up your language skills when you never have the chance to speak the language.
I studied German, Latin and French in high school. German in college. French after college, because I was terrible at French in high school. Latin and Old English in grad school. The only language I can attempt to speak is German--and I suspect that has more to do with the fact that my family lived in Germany until I was 3 years old. I can read a bit of French, but can't pronounce it at all. I can read Latin and medieval Latin and Old English, but they are not useful in everyday life. (Pretty much the same thing has happened with the calculus I studied--no need, ever, to use it, so it has been forgotten.)
The fact is that languages other than English aren't useful for many US citizens. If you live in the Southwest, Spanish is useful. If you live in the very north and east of the US, French can be useful. If you live in an area with a large immigrant population, there may be specific languages that are useful. But for the average American, foreign languages simply aren't useful, and so they aren't studied, and if they are studied, they are quickly forgotten.
One of my brothers has a real aptitude for languages--he studied French and Russian in high school, and continued the Russian in college. Then he joined the military and eventually got a job where the language aptitude was necessary. He is now fluent in two languages other than English, and can make himself understood in about four more, and can read and write all of them. But he uses these languages on a regular basis.
I went to college in the 1970s, and a second language was a requirement back then, as well. You had to take two years at the college level, or take the Advanced Placement test and exempt out of the first year, or have extra high school language classes to exempt out of a semester or two.
Yossarian
10-20-12, 8:38am
The fact is that languages other than English aren't useful for many US citizens.
I actively try and keep up my Spanish but Miss C has a good point. No single second language is that useful. I am currently working on a global deal with teams from Brazil, France, Italy and Russia. Last month it was Chile, Japan, China, Germany and the Netherlands. I can't learn them all and English is already the global business language. If it wasn't, I would learn whatever was. So I just stick with Spanish because it is the most useful second language here.
Miss Cellane
10-20-12, 8:52am
I actively try and keep up my Spanish but Miss C has a good point. No single second language is that useful. I am currently working on a global deal with teams from Brazil, France, Italy and Russia. Last month it was Chile, Japan, China, Germany and the Netherlands. I can't learn them all and English is already the global business language. If it wasn't, I would learn whatever was. So I just stick with Spanish because it is the most useful second language here.
Yes, I've discovered in the little bit of international travel that I've been able to do--if you have to be mono-lingual, English is the language to be mono-lingual in. Sings and directions and information will be in the native language of the country, and if there is another language, it will most likely be English.
Years ago, the agency I worked for was holding some symposiums at a large industry trade show. Someone called my office to register several people for the symposiums. He was from somewhere in French-speaking Canada. I have an extremely difficult time with French, because the spelling of the words just doesn't match up with the pronunciation of the words. My brain just can't cope.
So I'm on the phone with a gentleman speaking in a very thick French accent, trying to get the correct spelling of the attendees' names, so that their name badges will be correct. I'm having to ask him to spell everything, because of my brain glitch with French and his accent.
He finally got mad and exploded at me, "Why can't you Americans learn a foreign language? You are all so stuck-up that you think everyone should learn English!" and more in that vein. When he stopped, I gently informed him that I had studied both German and Latin and Korean (thanks to a military childhood), but unfortunately, those weren't helping either of us right now (I was not going to admit to my single year of French in high school, which clearly wasn't helping, either).
And he calmed down and spelled everything out for me and we ended the conversation pleasantly. Because I think he finally realized that you can't call an office in the US and expect them to be able to speak all the different languages that there are in the world.
awakenedsoul
10-20-12, 9:06am
My feeling is, you have to adjust to the foreign country, the country is not going to change for you. When people come from other countries and expect Americans to speak their language, they will get frustrated. If you stay in your native country, everyone speaks your native language.
In Europe the countries are very close together. It is easier for Americans there, because English is the "universal second language" there. It makes it easier for us.
I'd like to put forward the notion that English *is* the international business language. I'm in international shipping and I deal with people all over the world. My US office also has our US corporate offices. Personnel from offices across the world are in and out of our offices constantly. While the executives all know more than their native language, all I ever hear is English, unless someone is on the phone with overseas. My colleagues in Asia and Europe tell me they *have* to know English. If they didn't, they wouldn't be able to conduct business internationally.
Even when there are speakers of the same language, say Spanish, but from different countries, I'm told by native speakers it's not uncommon to have difficulty understanding people from different countries . I used to work in an office with a large number of native-Spanish speakers, from Puerto Rico, Mexico, South and Central America. After a while they gave up trying to speak Spanish in the office because there were so many misunderstandings. English was used almost exclusively, unless folks from the same country were speaking together.
catherine
10-20-12, 9:41am
In Europe the countries are very close together. It is easier for Americans there, because English is the "universal second language" there. It makes it easier for us.
When I flew into Switzerland, I was amazed to see signs in English in the airport--Switzerland has THREE official languages, and STILL posts signs in English also!! Wow. If you really want to be multilingual, move around Switzerland a little bit.
The Storyteller
10-20-12, 10:40am
The issue brought up in the OP is not universal in the US. There aren't a lot of Spanish speaking folks in my part of Oklahoma, for instance. I rarely hear folks speaking Spanish to each other or over their cell phones. In our library, we have a Spanish language collection. Most of the books in that collection have 5 circulations, meaning they have been checked out 5 times. Some less, but none more than 5. That says to me there are 5 people in our community checking out Spanish language materials. Korean materials have many more circulations.
Now, I'm quite certain there are many others here who do speak Spanish, certainly more than 5. But it isn't a large number the way it was in the central California library I worked at.
English is not going anywhere.
With respect to people in europe knowing several languages........we would too, if the states on all 4 sides of us spoke a different language. We had no reason to know anything other than English for a very long time.
smellincoffee
10-20-12, 11:22am
I believe English has more to fear from "txtspk" than it does from Spanish, Chinese, or Arabic.
San Onofre Guy:
Here's the deal. The US does not have an official language. Instead, we have a First Amendment. So you can wring your hands because you have to listen to people converse in a language that isn't your choice or you can accept that you don't get to decide (and have behind you the enforcement power of the US Government) how others choose to express themselves.
On the positive side for you, you can speak English (or French, if that's what you prefer) all day long and even though you may be offending others who just don't want to hear it because they don't get to tell you how to express yourself, either.
So if it makes you feel better, go ahead and try and stumble through elementary French conversations with people who may or may not have an elementary French background to make a point that no one cares about even if they are aware of what you're doing. More power to you. Or, you can just let go of your anger about what is essentially a non-issue.
Personally, I wouldn't want to go to all that trouble. I'd just try and let go of the anger.
And if you're really concerned about doing better economically by speaking the dominant language, put your efforts into mastering Mandarin instead of wasting your time on French.
ApatheticNoMore
10-20-12, 11:48am
The fact is that languages other than English aren't useful for many US citizens. If you live in the Southwest, Spanish is useful. If you live in the very north and east of the US, French can be useful. If you live in an area with a large immigrant population, there may be specific languages that are useful. But for the average American, foreign languages simply aren't useful, and so they aren't studied, and if they are studied, they are quickly forgotten.
With respect to people in europe knowing several languages........we would too, if the states on all 4 sides of us spoke a different language. We had no reason to know anything other than English for a very long time.
Yea, I don't really like the issue being used to guilt trip and beat American adults over the head with, oh sneer sneer, your're so provincial, sneer you should know as many languages as they do in Europe. Well the U.S. is a HUGE landmass of mostly English speakers (and even mostly English speakers to the north of us too!). English may be the language of business. It is certainly the language I use to communicate with people in other countries in my work (mostly inhabitants of India of course, I often find myself at many different jobs having to communicate with people in India and they speak English). We don't have dozens of different languages in close proximity to us like Europe (some here are in close proximity to Spanish), nor do we even get their 4-6 weeks vacation to travel to those countries in close proximity. We get almost no vacation time at all to even travel Mexico and central America. We live in a society that only values work for an employer above all. U.S. public schools seldom teach foreign languages before high school and even then they may only have a few choices. It sounds like a good idea, but wouldn't it cost extra money to add foreign language classes to all public schools early on? Is there the will to do that? And suppose an innovative elementary school teacher wanted on their own to start teaching a foreign language but it was part of no official ciriculum, would they even be allowed to? Or would they be to busy teaching to the test for NCLB?
Then with K-12 schools that barely teach it, and no strong incentive to learn it in adulthood (there are things in adulthood people may have an incentive to learn, getting an education that can get one a job in the first place, then after one is established in a career improving job skills, maybe getting another degree to help advance one's career etc. if one is ambitious training for a new career even, but learning a foreign language is seldom one of those high practical payoff skills!). So with the immense stress and busyness that is American adulthood, and it's hard and harsh, let's all sneer at everyone not taking up a foreign language as their hobby. Why can't you be more like Europe, sneer, sneer? Ok let's do a trade: I'll learn a foreign language and you give me 4 weeks vacation, not to mention all the other benefits they get, fair? Because I'd gladly do that for 4 weeks vacation alone.
The people in the U.S. are absolutely not informed enough to vote for leaders of an empire due to not being well versed enough in other cultures etc.? Oh absolutely!!! The very layout of the country itself leaves them ill informed. But how many of us really WANT an empire anyway? I'd be happy with a country that came the heck home and concerned itself mostly with affairs of their own country! I'd rather NOT be a citizen of an empire.
ApatheticNoMore
10-20-12, 12:13pm
And if you're really concerned about doing better economically by speaking the dominant language, put your efforts into mastering Mandarin instead of wasting your time on French.
Meh, I've worked at companies that had outsource staff in India plus worked with plenty of immigrants from India, worked at companies that had some customer service outsource staff in latin American countries (Spanish), I've worked with Irish and even worked with some gasp Canadians :). And I can see the immediate benefits of Spanish. But I've never yet worked at a company or lived somewhere where Mandarin would have been very useful!
JaneV2.0
10-20-12, 12:34pm
Meh, I've worked at companies that had outsource staff in India plus worked with plenty of immigrants from India, worked at companies that had some customer service outsource staff in latin American countries (Spanish), I've worked with Irish and even worked with some gasp Canadians :). And I can see the immediate benefits of Spanish. But I've never yet worked at a company or lived somewhere where Mandarin would have been very useful!
My immediate supervisor at an editing gig was from Beijing, and I would have loved to communicate with them in Mandarin, but I was past my prime language-learning wise by that time. Any language, let alone Chinese.
I do think it's grand that English is becoming a universal language. We need one, the world being so small these days.
awakenedsoul
10-20-12, 7:14pm
When I flew into Switzerland, I was amazed to see signs in English in the airport--Switzerland has THREE official languages, and STILL posts signs in English also!! Wow. If you really want to be multilingual, move around Switzerland a little bit.
When I worked in Germany, a dance studio owner offered to pay my way to have me come teach at her dance school in Switzerland. It was just beautiful. I loved it! Once again, everyone spoke perfect English! I was only there a short time. the Swiss Alps were incredible...
Q: What do you call someone who speaks two languages?
A: Bilingual
Q: What do you call someone who speaks three languages?
A: Trilingual.
Q: What do you call someone who speaks one language?
A: An American!
Meh, I've worked at companies that had outsource staff in India plus worked with plenty of immigrants from India, worked at companies that had some customer service outsource staff in latin American countries (Spanish), I've worked with Irish and even worked with some gasp Canadians :). And I can see the immediate benefits of Spanish. But I've never yet worked at a company or lived somewhere where Mandarin would have been very useful!
I'm talking about the economic powerhouse China with it's 1.1B population has globally, not about outsourcing call centers.
And if you weren't talking about outsourcing call centers, excuse me. My response was off the cuff as I was really offended by the original post.
With respect to people in europe knowing several languages........we would too, if the states on all 4 sides of us spoke a different language.
Exactly right. My own experience tells me there are more non-Latino Spanish speakers in the southern border states than in most other places. The geography of Europe is fairly similar to the western states. Looking at it that way makes me think that Europeans tend to be multilingual out of necessity rather than some gracious gesture toward their neighbors.
Here's the deal. The US does not have an official language.
I wondered when that would come up. I personally don't care one bit what language anyone speaks when they are in their community, or for that matter mine. I do, however, support the English as an official language movement simply because I think our government should conduct its business in a single language so that every sector can work with every other one and so tax payers aren't burdened with the cost of running things in....well, how many languages are represented in the US? 120? 150? More? If you cater to one do you have to cater to all to be fair? Anyway, all our signs are already in English. The vast majority of our population still speaks English. Government forms are all printed in English. Our constitution is written in English... To declare an official language is simply a practical matter, it need not be designed to exclude anyone.
And if you're really concerned about doing better economically by speaking the dominant language, put your efforts into mastering Mandarin instead of wasting your time on French.
Probably true, depending on what you want to do. That antiquated French is still the official language of 27 different nations and is really helpful for reading wine labels.
iris lily
10-22-12, 10:08am
When I worked in Germany, a dance studio owner offered to pay my way to have me come teach at her dance school in Switzerland. It was just beautiful. I loved it! Once again, everyone spoke perfect English! I was only there a short time. the Swiss Alps were incredible...
We go to Switzerland to see DH's relatives. The older generation, those our age and older, don't speak much English. Their children do speak some or a lot of English as well as other languages. You can get around just fine with English only.
Last year we had two young couples and their children stay with us. The men were from Italy and didn't speak English, the girls did speak English.
My young nephew insists that learning languages is pointless (except as affectation) for most people, who will be able to get by with translation software and phone apps. He says if we were really worried about staying competitive, we'd require anyone looking to get a degree to take some solid math, science and tech ("and not that 'physics for poets' junk either"). He is a very opinionated young man.
Perhaps we could use more opinionated young men.
I believe English has more to fear from "txtspk" than it does from Spanish, Chinese, or Arabic.
+1 smellincoffee. Maybe that is the beginning of actual newspeak.
U.S. public schools seldom teach foreign languages before high school and even then they may only have a few choices. It sounds like a good idea, but wouldn't it cost extra money to add foreign language classes to all public schools early on? Is there the will to do that? And suppose an innovative elementary school teacher wanted on their own to start teaching a foreign language but it was part of no official ciriculum, would they even be allowed to? Or would they be to busy teaching to the test for NCLB?
Please---let's first teach our kids to READ, articulately WRITE and fluently SPEAK ENGLISH!
Perhaps we could use more opinionated young men. ...
Probably not; I think opinionated comes with the territory in adolescence. It's only when we get older that we realize how little we actually know.
At any rate, learning languages (including a solid grounding in English) doesn't preclude you from learning other disciplines. Even if you never need music training or advanced math in your daily life, your brain will be better off for having learned them. Same with the scientific method and an extra language or two. Learning is the best part of life, IMO.
Probably not; I think opinionated comes with the territory in adolescence. It's only when we get older that we realize how little we actually know.
Who was it who said "I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then"?
I think you make a good point in that it almost doesn't matter what you study as long as you develop the habits of a disciplined mind early in life. The details you can look up, some skills become obsolete, but there's no good substitute for application. That's where other countries are starting to eat our lunch.
Probably not; I think opinionated comes with the territory in adolescence. It's only when we get older that we realize how little we actually know.
If that were true a third party would have a pretty good shot. IMO, of course.
Who was it who said "I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then"?
Not sure who said it first, but Bob Seger said it pretty well.
ApatheticNoMore
10-22-12, 3:18pm
I'm talking about the economic powerhouse China with it's 1.1B population has globally, not about outsourcing call centers.
And if you weren't talking about outsourcing call centers, excuse me. My response was off the cuff as I was really offended by the original post.
I'm talking about job relevance, what might lead to being able to better communicate with people at the job, not abstract geopolitics.
I'm not even slightly offended by people speaking foreign languages around me, it happens fairly frequently, oh for goodness sake it happens every day. I do find the press x for english thing annoying, but hey phone menus aren't exactly real fun anyway. If my bank was entirely in another language I'd switch banks, period, I can take my money elsewhere.
What I find incredibly annoying and offensive is suggesting yet another task that busy American adults *should* be doing and sneering at them if they don't, a discussion that doesn't even take into account the very real time poverty most American adults face. Must work (that one is pretty obvious), must commute, should make your own food (the food companies are trying to poison us afterall), must keep house, self, laundry, at least not totally filthy, must pay bills, do taxes, take car in for inspection, should exercise, must keep up with developments in one's field for work (I took two classes this year in that and study that in my own time a little as well), should help out in your community (I do), should keep informed on poltical developments *IF* one votes, should try to maintain relationships, if one has kids must make quality time, etc.. And heaven forbid you spend a little time watching tv or surfing the internet or anything, you should feel very ashamed of such pleasures, shouldn't you be studying something instead. This doesn't even mean I might not take up a language (it would be Spanish, of course it would be Spanish, duh! I remember a little french from HS but no ...) but I sure as heck would never do so because someone sneers at me and calls me a provincial American. They need to go choke on a conjugated verb already. Americans don't know foreign languages mostly because they aren't taught in K-12 (only a little in high school) - that's probably the single biggest thing, and they aren't that job relevant (haha Americans learn things that are job relevant), and travel is expensive and time consuming (for 2 week vacations), not because they are inferior. For most people it's a hobby, that's all it will ever be, it won't be a living which people do by necessity give due time, and can you fault them if they prefer woodworking, or flower arranging, or tennis, or anything or nothing at all as a hobby instead.
At any rate, learning languages (including a solid grounding in English) doesn't preclude you from learning other disciplines.
Actually, yes it might, again only so many hours in a day.
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Actually, yes it might, again only so many hours in a day.
I was primarily thinking of studying a variety of subjects in school--what used to be the purview of a well-rounded education--establishing a foundation for life-long learning.
Agreed about the endless expectations and obligations of adulthood. I suspect they brought a lot of us here.
If anything has killed the English language, it is texting.
But the language problems apeares in many other countries too. In Germany we have lots of people from Turky and the older generations don't speak german. We also have areas where they only speak turkish and the kids growing up don't learn a proper german. I don't like to listen to those kids, and I can't take them seriously.
Growing up on the east side of Germany I learned russian in school for 6 years and 3 or 4 years of english. Russian is totaly out of my brain.
I went to the US as an Au pair and in the beginning it was tough, but gladly I learned the language, because I had no other choise. I love english now and find it easy. I tried spanish but found it to difficult for me. And it is always easier to learn a language within the country.
San Onofre Guy
10-23-12, 12:42pm
I will make a final closing comment. My beginning this thread bottom line was meant to point out that if we encourge people to stay out of the mainstream economy, they just might. I want all children to grow up in this country with a high level understanding of the english language. If english is your second language, by and large your opportunities will not be as good as they might otherwise be. I do think we should raise the bar for what is considered minimum standards. Not all will achieve that standard but society will benefit.
Three in my office of fourteen spoke spanish before english, but they were taught in english at school and when they were young, the banks and stores spoke english to them. They are all more successful then their parents, something that I think everyone wants for their children. I envy their bilingual status as languages are tough for me.
From my memory of growing up in Maine, those in school with me whose parents only spoke french had a tougher time in school, partly due to their parents inability to help them with their work.
I will make a final closing comment. My beginning this thread bottom line was meant to point out that if we encourge people to stay out of the mainstream economy, they just might. I want all children to grow up in this country with a high level understanding of the english language. If english is your second language, by and large your opportunities will not be as good as they might otherwise be. I do think we should raise the bar for what is considered minimum standards. Not all will achieve that standard but society will benefit.
Three in my office of fourteen spoke spanish before english, but they were taught in english at school and when they were young, the banks and stores spoke english to them. They are all more successful then their parents, something that I think everyone wants for their children. I envy their bilingual status as languages are tough for me.
From my memory of growing up in Maine, those in school with me whose parents only spoke french had a tougher time in school, partly due to their parents inability to help them with their work.
Children who attend English-medium school will not have a problem learning English even if their parents speak another language at home. They may be a little reticent to speak at first, as they absorb all the new information, but it is entirely possible to develop native proficiency in a language if you're immersed in it at a relatively young age, even if it's only in school.
I used to teach English in a Spanish primary school in Spain where there were a number of Bulgarian children whose families had recently immigrated there. The children were SILENT for about 4-6 months, but after that, they spoke better Spanish than I did...
High school is too late. The brain is wired to soak up any language you might need until you're about twelve.. by then all the dendrites that facilitate learning multiple languages have shriveled up. It's really not the smartest thing that we wait until high school to teach our students a second language. In fact, it's a shame. How many millions of people who took 2-3 years of a language in high school are able to really use it?
It may not be possible to totally eliminate a foreign accent or slight grammatical errors, but it is definitely possible to obtain near-native proficiency in a language as an adult, if you are IMMERSED in an environment where that language is spoken. Language classes in your own country are seldom sufficient - they are a mere introduction.
For adult immigrants, this can often be difficult though. NOT because their brains are no longer equipped for it, but because it's more difficult for an adult to integrate into a foreign society than a child. It's harder to forge connections and create opportunities for real immersion without a pre-existing high level of language ability.
¡Vivan los idiomas extranjeros! :)
I think I understand what the OP, San O-Guy, was saying. In many parts of SoCal there are large and ever expanding immigrant communities where their first language is used almost exclusively. And as those communities grow and expand outward exponentially, the use of english in tose communities pretty much is non-existent for thew most part. The immigrant language becomes the predominate language of day to day use in all the business (where they often don't have anyone who speaks another language like english), in the schools, and nearly everywhere. Signs are in the immigrant language over english - and any other language - and the entire culture becomes less mixed-culture and more mono-culture. And the non-immigrant residents who live in these large areas and communities who don't speak the language are left to either assimilate or move.
As an example: My Mom owned a house in a city and working class neighborhood that was mixed-culture and race. Made up of whites, non-immigrant hispanics (people who had been in the US for generations and who;s first language was english), Pacific Islander, Japanese, Korean, Pakastani and East Indian, and a smaller mix of other races and ethnicities. It was truelly a melting pot yet most people spoke english as a common language in the town, as well as in the schools even if vgarious stores and busnisses had non-english speakers. Even my German immigrant Mom (who moved to the States when she was 27 and spent all her free time leaning english) was able to attend church services in German at a small german community in the town. However, sometime in the late 1970's the city started to take in and support, educate, and provide jobs and healthcare and money to South Vietnamese refugees. A very noble endeavor. Over the years the town I grew up in become the largest Vietnamese community out side of Vietnam in the world. Now the entire business sedctor, including the bank my Mom did busisness with, have almost all native vietnamese speakers. They have no need to employ english speaking people - or spanish or any other language - because now their entire busines is from Vietnamese immigrant. So my 70 year old Mom had became the non-native speaker in the community she lived in for decades. She was living in a place that required her to learn a new language in order to be a part of the community - a community that was no longer multicultural but now one single culture. This same community borders other immigrant communities that have enclosed upon themselves in their own language to the abolishment of english for the most part.
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