View Full Version : Dogs then children
Some of you know that we recently added another dog to our household. Since then, naturally, we've had a number of folks pop over to meet him (because puppies are like a magnet). I've now had three sets of friends voice this sentiment, and I'm working my way toward understanding it:
They are all couples who, when they first got married, decided to see how they'd do with pets first. They adopted a dog or bought a puppy, and loved them like crazy, gave them lots of attention, etc. Then they decided to have children, and now the dogs naturally receive less attention (human kids need a lot of time!) But these three all expressed the sentiment that they now wanted to give their dog away, or were just marking time until they passed away. No one's saying they'll take the dog to a shelter or anything, but clearly the dog's now in the way, largely unloved, and out at the fringe of the family.
Yet I know other folks whose dogs have become part of the family unit, becoming the beloved companion of the new child/ren, everybody goes places together, etc.
I guess I'm struggling to not judge, but just understand the difference between those two mindsets. I admit it makes me pretty sad to see these animals never touched or petted, shoved in a crate or locked outside all day. Is it that the owners underestimated how much time & energy a dog AND a child would take, and are simply overwhelmed? I do get that. Or was the pet just a means to an end, to learn whether their new spouse would be a responsible caregiver, and now has outlived its usefulness?
Did this happen to you --- and how did you handle it?
I am of the mindset that believes it is ok to judge. It's called discretion. I really don't want to have the kind of person in my life who would treat an animal that way.
Decisions people make have outcomes. Sometimes the outcome is positive for another party, in this case the decisions of these "animal lovers" are detrimental to the animals--and to the children themselves because of the lesson being taught to the children (and if you think about it, many different messages are being taught to their children here and on many levels.)
I do not think that I would be the kind of person who would simply try and understand the difference between the two mindsets. One of these mindsets is appropriate, ethical and moral to me. The other is not.
I think we are way, way too concerned about understanding and accepting differences in people in this society to the point where we excuse abhorrent behavior.
awwwww.........that's so sad!!
Unfortunately children DO take up a ton of time. But how can you just cast aside a little being who you've loved, before the kids were born?
I do wonder about those people.......if they got an animal to see how they'd do with children. That's awful. How are they going to treat the children when they become "too much" work??
Very strange.
I'm with you Pug.......I would have alot of trouble with this.
Do you know if any of these couples were raised in families without pets?
My husband wasn't raised with pets. Me, I'm a farm girl thru and thru. Dad raised beagles and bird dogs. There were always barn cats. And then the livestock and horses.
He doesn't 'get' my need to have animals. He is marking time until our dog dies and the other day he said 'no more dogs when this one dies'. So I do everything I can to make sure my critters aren't in his way.
Dogs are, and always have been an important part of our family dynamic. I have heard the same as you, but it was not the case in our family. Actually, the second dog that we currently have came into our lives because the people who bought him (cute, fluffy adorable puppy) wanted a playmate for their existing dog - the sedate, senior calm dog that was "on the fringe of their family life". In other words, they got a dog for the dog. Well, dog #2 was too much for them, and they gave it to us. In our family, he adds a spark -he is so quirky and full of love and life that we would never have CHOSEN him, but he just fits and adds something we didn't know we needed.
Of course, a four year old dog who has recently begun dumping out the trash can - not sure what has happened - he never used to... I asked hubby today if he was too old to give back (we've had him 3 1/2 years and told the first owners we would give him back if he didn't work out).
I will never understand, and I hope I never actually do understand, people who treat companion animals as disposable. And call me judgmental all you want. If you aren't prepared to love them, and care for them for their natural life, then don't take on the responsibility.
catherine
11-2-12, 10:32am
Well, then you have the other end of the spectrum where people care MORE about their pets than their children! I knew a couple who went on vacation, left their son home with a nanny, and took their DOG. To be honest, when I read the title of the thread, I thought that's what it was going to be about. I never got over that.
As far as abandoning a pet when the kids some along, emotional abandonment is cruel whether it's towards a kid or a canine. But sometimes the family dynamics do get shaken up. If the dog is jealous or potentially aggressive, sometimes you do have to take action, but in that case, a good home should be found, or the dog retrained, rather than sending the pet into exile.
My own personal disclaimer and feel free to judge, when my third son was born, I was really at the end of my rope in many ways. We had adopted a German shepherd several months earlier, which we NEVER should have done. DH and I both worked, commuted long distances, had two other kids, it was just not a good situation for us or the poor dog. We found a home for the dog after I brought my baby son home from the hospital. I knew there were limits to how much love I could spread around at that moment in time. Yes, I made a big mistake getting the dog to begin with. I've had two "lifer" dogs since, when we were good and ready.
Being raised on a farm had an opposite result in me. I think of pets as fun and companions, but as belonging outdoors and in the barn. Not in the house.
I understand what you're saying, bunnys. But I think it's possible there's other things at play --- like maybe they really seriously underestimated how much time/life/energy the combination of child+dog would take up, and something has to give, as Catherine said. Or maybe the dog(s) started to misbehave and become a real pain when the child was born, and they just can't find the energy to deal with it along with all the other stresses new parenthood holds....though I know at least one of them is simply an angel of a dog, so sweet and patient. I guess I'm looking for ways not to dislike people based on this stuff, but maybe I can help them figure out ways to deal with it. Or help them find a home that's going to love them.
Maybe, thinking about it, I'm having a conversation with myself. Is this event just making me think hard about my choice to have these animals in our household, and setting in stone the promise to myself to being a responsible owner forever, no matter what happens? I didn't think I needed that, we're rock solid with our little pack here, but who knows how my monkey brain works.
It would be really easy for me to get pissed off about this, but I'm trying to find another way through it. It's not a black and white world for me.
I've been training and handling dogs since I was 14. Maybe I should offer a class on integrating your pet with a new baby LOL
I've been on the other side of that coin, where my children (grandchildren) were not prioritized over a grandparent's dog. And that is detrimental to the children, as well.
And even though these folks are vocalizing these thoughts, they may very well be seeking out some advice on how to find a better balance. I will also say that in my experience with struggling with judgement, that I also have to recognize that I am not in the other person's home all day. everyday. I do not absolutely 100% know WHAT is going on to say that a friend that crates or has multiple children or a busy life is *never* petting or spending time with their pet.
For us, we married at 18. Yes, we had a pet first. In fact, we tried to have children and miscarried a few times. So, the pet was the only 'child' in our life until our 1st was born. Said pet, decided that she did not like our oldest. She ran across the room to bite her unprovoked many times. We consulted with our vet, took her for training, and researched, implementing modifications that we had hoped would help. And then, she started vindictive urinating. After a year and blood drawn on our daughter, the vet agreed rehoming would be best. I worked through a no kill shelter, had a formal applicationa nd interview process, found a mature woman with adult daughter who had other smaller dogs. Our dog fell right in line like it was home sweet home. Follow ups over those next two years, photos, the dog was so happy. Sometimes, a family with children does give the attention, has the patience. I was a homemaker at that time, only had the one child, husband was deployed off and on, there was no issue with the dog getting attention. She was never crated, she traveled with me. She just in her older age and maybe breed related (Yorkie/Chi) she just was unable to get over the fact that there was another body in the house.
Later on, we had a dachshund (also a small dog). Best dog ever. My little buddy, intregal part of the family with no personality hang ups towards kids when our 2nd child came. He lived 10 years.
We adopted 2 years ago, a mix breed beagle from the shelter. She's has her quirks like the rest of us, but we love her so much. She goes to the farm, on car rides. I guess I understand where you're coming from, as I could not ever imagine not throwing her a ball, and giving her attention. With that said, for her safety with her history, she is put in the laundry room when we're gone. Has to be. Vet agrees with this. I have friends with very busy lives that you never hear or see their dog. With that said, as I mentioned above, I'm not going to place judgement because I truly do not know how they are with their dog when the doors are closed.
Little kids, babies, do not mix with pets, no matter how many cute pictures you see of tiny babies sleeping next to a huge dog that could bite their heads off in one bite. They just don't. Having a dog when you also have a baby is like running between two separate families to keep everyone happy. A dog is a loving pet that we agree to take care of, but in the end, it's a dog. An animal.
The time to get a pet is not when you have babies or thinking of having babies. After the kids are older, old enough to understand the obligations of a pet, and responsibilities, then you can try to integrate a pet into the family unit. But again, if the animal doesn't fit, it doesn't fit, and the family and kids come first. Harsh, I know, but real. Kids need to learn compassion and tolerance towards others, including animals, but they also need to learn that they come first, last and always before a pet. Every time.
Gosh, it never entered my mind to get rid of the dogs when our daughter was born. Totally alien idea to me and I don't know anyone who would have done that.
I grew up with dogs and cats. My best friend when I was a toddler was my Doberman, Hap. I used to share dog biscuits with him. I'd chew on one for awhile, then he would (very gently), and then back to me. He was my protector out in the world. I haven't read this thread because I was afraid it would make me angry, so I'm guessing--but people who throw away animals should never have had any in the first place. Children either, IMO.
Gosh, it never entered my mind to get rid of the dogs when our daughter was born. Totally alien idea to me and I don't know anyone who would have done that.
Sadly, just one look at the pet section of craigslist and one sees that they are quite expendable in many people's minds - I see lots of sudden allergies mentioned, we're moving or we're having a baby ads - where owners are getting rid of pets they have had for 3-4 years and more. I don't think the reality of a 15 yr committment is something many people understand but that is the potential reality when one acquires a new pet. It will surprise me if dd and her boyfriend keep their huge dog acquired a year ago if a baby ever comes along - knowing how much time, energy and money that dog takes. He was dumped by previous owners, too.
I had a giant 120 lb golden retriever when I got pregnant. I talked to LeviDog all the time about the coming baby. I'd put his head on my tummy to hear the heartbeat or kick just I would my husband's head. When I delivered one of the first things I did was have my husband take home the little snuggle hat that had been on my baby's head in the nursery so LeviDog could smell that something new was coming. DH gave the hat to LeviDog and he sniffed it and carried it around. When we brought the baby home, the first thing I did was get down on the floor with LeviDog and show him the baby. LeviDog sniffed the baby and went and found the snuggle hat that he'd put on his bed. He knew and accepted and was such a good dog around both boys. We sadly lost LeviDog not long after he protected the boys from a neighbor's mean dog when the boys were 3 and 4.
DH did like LeviDog.
Dogs are way better then kids :~) My family knows how much I love these dogs! No really, my sons are grown but the pets always have been a part of the family.
I had a giant 120 lb golden retriever when I got pregnant. I talked to LeviDog all the time about the coming baby. I'd put his head on my tummy to hear the heartbeat or kick just I would my husband's head. When I delivered one of the first things I did was have my husband take home the little snuggle hat that had been on my baby's head in the nursery so LeviDog could smell that something new was coming. DH gave the hat to LeviDog and he sniffed it and carried it around. When we brought the baby home, the first thing I did was get down on the floor with LeviDog and show him the baby. LeviDog sniffed the baby and went and found the snuggle hat that he'd put on his bed. He knew and accepted and was such a good dog around both boys. We sadly lost LeviDog not long after he protected the boys from a neighbor's mean dog when the boys were 3 and 4.
DH did like LeviDog.
Oh, heck, NOW you did it. I think I'm gonna cry. :D
Believe it or not, we don't see a ton of this in bulldog rescue, at least, I've not seen it.
The last rescue dog I had (a completely wonderful bulldog, the kind we call "starter bulldog" because she's not got many bulldog issues) was given up by her family with kids, but it was because the dad up and left leaving mom with three children under the age of 7.
Some years ago our friends in the dog group had no kids and after trying and also having adoptions fall through, they adopted an adorable little girl. Up to then, their male bulldog had been their baby. He was rather old and as he got older he got cranky and was a bite risk, but they persevered through until he died. I know that I would pause to have a cranky biter around a toddler so I always thought they did a great job in keeping him until the end. And since him they always have a bulldog in the house.
But then, some dogs hate kids and I can see why, children are noisy and they scream and they dart around erratically.
And on another note, I have no problem "judging" the behavior of others, so what! It's not like my judgement will cause them to change. If only. Bring back shame, that's what I say. This society can use doses of shame. Dump a dog alongside of the road? You bet, I'll shame you. Drag your pitbull along the street with bar bells around his neck, trying to impress your ghetto neighbors, training him to lunge and bite, you bet I'll freakin' well "judge" you.
Catherine and Puglogic: I respectfully disagree. I see adopting a pet as making a lifetime commitment. I do not think anyone should adopt a pet unless they have considered this and made the lifetime commitment to their decision, regardless of the problems that may come along. Till death do they part. So when considering adding an animal to the household, prospective pet owners should consider their future family plans.
Catherine, I commend you for finding a home for your dog.
Puglogic: When it comes to the possible suffering of a devoted companion animal, I am unwilling to give the owner and ultimate cause of that animal's suffering the benefit of the doubt as to their motives for abandonment.
Some posters are conflating two different issues. Just because someone is unwilling to abandon their companion animal does not automatically mean that their animal's needs would trump the needs of their children. I am certain that this type of situation is in fact extremely rare.
In the United States, 3-4 million companion animals are euthanized each year. This is nothing short of a tragedy. Think of how dramatically this number would be reduced if every adoptive pet parent seriously considered the full impact of their decision prior to adopting and did in fact make a lifetime commitment to the animal they adopt.
This is an issue that I cannot see room for compromise on because of the suffering that exists and perpetuated by doing so.
My story is like Float On's. When my son was born, my husband brought his baby blanket home from the hospital to our male Shiloh shepherd and female German Shepherd. When I brought the baby home a few days later, I kneeled down on the floor with him, and the dogs both came forward to sniff him, with their ears down in submissive mode. They were very interested, and then backed away. I think they knew that their positions in the family pecking order had been usurped. But my husband and I both made sure to give them each some one-on-one time each day.
The German Shepherd came to believe that my son was her pup, and she adopted child #2 as well a couple of years later. She would have laid down her life for those two kids, and loved them until the end of her life. If a stranger came into the house that she didn't know, she was constantly placing herself between them and whatever kid happened to be around.
The Shiloh was my first baby, but he was also very accepting of both kids. He didn't love them to the extent that the German Shepherd did, but loved them nonetheless.
Catherine and Puglogic: I respectfully disagree. I see adopting a pet as making a lifetime commitment. I do not think anyone should adopt a pet unless they have considered this and made the lifetime commitment to their decision, regardless of the problems that may come along. Till death do they part.
Yes, till death do they part--and sometimes people divorce--sometimes for good reasons and sometimes bad. I completely agree with you in theory, but SHappens in life as it did in my case. To be perfectly honest, where I was at that juncture of my life with my house being foreclosed upon, my phone disconnected, half the income I needed just to get by, and a cocaine/alcohol addicted husband... people told me I shouldn't have had my son, never mind the dog.
Miss Cellane
11-3-12, 9:28am
Something I've seen twice now, no idea how widespread this is.
A couple gets a dog. They don't have kids yet. The dog is pampered and treated as much as possible like a human. Things that would drive me nuts are allowed and laughed at, like stealing food from plates, non-stop barking, peeing all over the house, sometimes pooping in the house, tearing up clothes and furniture, eating area rugs. The dog is taught tricks, but not necessarily how to walk on a lead, to sit, to stay, what "No" means. Basic dog training is little to non-existent.
Then the first kid comes. And suddenly that undisciplined dog isn't so funny any more. It is difficult to change diapers with the dog trying to get between you and the baby. It's not fun cleaning up the mess when the dog gets into the diaper pail and shreds the used disposable diapers all over the living room, especially when you have a crying baby that needs to be fed or changed right now. The dog is underfoot when you try to prepare the baby's bottle. The dog wants to visit with you during feedings. You can't tell it to go lie down on its bed or in its crate, because you never taught it to do that.
The dog, in short, is very confused about why it is suddenly being ignored. Why behavior that used to get laughs and pets and treats is now met with yelling and possibly hits. And it tries harder to fit in and stay a member of its pack. And parents of a new-born have little time or energy to train a dog from scratch.
Then the dog, which has only been doing what it has been doing all along, finds itself in a shelter.
Something I've seen twice now, no idea how widespread this is. ........
Then the dog, which has only been doing what it has been doing all along, finds itself in a shelter.
Miss Cellane, I've seen that too. And one of the couples I posted about is just like this. The dogs are a pain in the butt because frankly they never cared enough to take the time to make them good citizens. Lots of folks get dogs that have no business doing so.
Miss Cellane, I've seen that too. And one of the couples I posted about is just like this. The dogs are a pain in the butt because frankly they never cared enough to take the time to make them good citizens. Lots of folks get dogs that have no business doing so.
I absolutely agree. And frankly, I think a dog is happier when it knows it's place, and knows what is expected of it. Being a 'good dog' is kind of like a job for the dog and dogs love having a job. But then i think children are the same in many ways. LOL
Spoiling a dog or a child does a huge disservice to both. We know couples where we would rather they left the kids at home and brought the dog, or the other way around. And a few where the whole danged family is welcome! Those are the visits I like!
Gardenarian
11-5-12, 4:13pm
Both of our dogs came from homes that had new babies and couldn't cope.
Last year I offered to dog-sit for someone who had a new baby, and the mother begged me to keep her dog; she said she just couldn't take care of the baby and give the dog the love it needed. She was clearly torn, but I wasn't ready to take on a third dog. She lived in a fourth floor apartment - how difficult it must be to have a dog and no yard!
I did have a dog when my daughter was born; I was way more concerned about his (my dog's) feelings about the baby than my ability to cope. He was my best friend, my companion through pregnancy. When I was in labor I sent my husband home to make sure that he was okay!
I guess I have just felt so close to my animal friends that it is impossible for my to understand anyone who would give them up. Poor planning is understandable in some circumstances, but I do have trouble sympathizing with this one.
treehugger
11-5-12, 4:39pm
I have seen this often, as part of a greyhound rescue group. Our group's iron-clad rule is that anyone who needs to get rid of their greyhound for any reason, needs to return it to the group, not take it to an animal shelter. So, at least we get to be active participants in the fostering and rehoming when it's needed (at least most of the time; no doubt there are people who break this rule).
But this issue is exactly why we do home visits and have an application process. And, as a private organization, we can say no to potential adopters if the adoption process reveals overwhelmed parents or iffy attitudes about providing the dog a home for the rest of its life. I know people complain about restrictive policies about dog adoptions, but this is exactly why. Our #1 responsibility is to the dogs, and that means finding permanent homes for them. We do not want dogs returned because of a personality mis-match or misunderstanding about the time commitment of adopting a dog. So, we ask tough questions during adoption (e.g., what would you do with the dog if you have a baby, get divorced, lost your home, etc.). And when people get offended about those questions, then that is pretty telling.
Kara
I would hope this family won't be dumping the dog, but you never know:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/09/missing-australian-toddle_n_2094599.html
Animals, children, family, all need love, attention, affection, and care.
When you bring a new baby home, you don't neglect and/or kick your spouse to the side for baby, and the same should hold true for animals.
We're a pet-free home, but I know if we had a pet, it would be loved (unconditionally) every bit as equal as my kids, husband, family, and it would be included in everything we do.
It is so sad to see how some humans treat animals--like throwaways. These people have no hearts! Yes, I'm being judgemental and not apologizing for it!
awakenedsoul
11-20-12, 2:05pm
Interesting thread. I've had five rescued dogs since the early 1990's. Two were super easy... submissive and obedient. One had been terribly neglected and she bit me twice. (a husky.) I had to put her down. The other two I still have. One's a purebred German shepherd, the other is a shepherd/terrior/greyhound/pit bull mix. I call her the elegant mutt, since she's very pretty and petite. This thread actually makes me feel much better about my dogs! They are both super smart, and will follow commands: "Go in your crate," "Get in the car," "Time for bed," "Come inside," etc... It's taken a lot of work to train them. They are both very strong, dominant females. They don't like having workers in the house. I think it will just take more time and practice. Since I live alone, they need more experience with having people over. I run them every morning on my Walkydog, and we stop and I talk with neighbors. They are excellent watchdogs, and have really helped me in this neighborhood. I don't have kids, but if I did, I think both dogs would both be fine. I have a large yard where they play together. I've heard that German shepherds are excellent babysitters, and I can see that in my dogs. Both of them were abused, so they have some nervous issues, but they're getting better each year. When I had men here laying tile in my bathroom, the dogs ran out the gate when it was accidentally left open. One of the workers called to them, "Hey! Come back inside." They ran right back in the yard. I was so relieved. Sometimes I get so frustrated with them, but all in all they are doing well.
I have a neighbor with five children and three dogs. She doesn't approve of how I take my dogs in the car, walk them everyday, and talk to them "like they're your children." Her dogs stay outside in the yard. They seem content. I guess it's just how you are raised.
floaton,
Loved your story. How sweet!
sweetana3
11-20-12, 4:14pm
Glo, I stand right with you. It is unbelievable to me what people do to animals AND children. Each is weak and innocent and needs so much for an adult to take care of them.
When you read about the woman who has had 3 kids taken by CPS and then found with a starved 2 year old and dead starved infant, it is perhaps too much to expect she would take care of a dog. Wonder too about her father living in contact with her.
The mill breeders and hoarders are beyond my comprehension. But greed and mental illness are hard to fight.
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