Why are some countries war mongers and others so peaceful?

[CathyA]

Ever wonder that? I mean look at some countries like Scandinavia, and then look at the middle east. (just to name one example).
What makes the difference?

[HappyHiker]

CathyA, I wonder the same thing. Near as I can figure, the Middle East is, and has been, a battle over limited resources (land, water, holy grounds) and a battle over different ideologies and religions. Scandinavia is very homogenous...

I hurt when reading what is happening right now in the Middle East and long for peace and understanding between the neighboring countries...

[The Storyteller]

Religion.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Ever wonder that? I mean look at some countries like Scandinavia, and then look at the middle east. (just to name one example). What makes the difference?

The first example that popped to my mind from this title of a war monger is the U.S. (because basically we live in a state of chronic low level or not so low level wars - never at peace), so I was going to answer because of power and the wealth that makes power possible, because it's one of the biggest governments in the world due to the sheer size of the U.S. population and economy, that's what I mean by power (but meh with the U.S. you are proably also talking historical accidents and path dependence). But the the middle east, why the middle east is such a cluster, geez .... In places like Africa and so on you often are getting down to resource shortages I think.

[iris lily]

ah those Scandos, they are so great! We just need to look at them as examples for all of our lives, doncha think? And when their geography and diverse population matches that of this country, then yeah, I'll be willing to look at them as role models in all that we do.

It's funny you should mention this because last night I watched a Danish film In A Better World about the culture of personal violence, how boys and men view it and how they react as boys and men to violence. It was (and I mean this in a sincere and positive way) instructive and it provided fodder for deep thought in the way only good fiction does. In this film a father takes on a role of showing boys in his circle about turning the other cheek. But when he is finally confronted with ultimate evil he can't ignore, he releases the hounds (figuratively speaking) on the bad guy. It's directed by a woman.

It was a good film, and I am struck by how few Scandinavian actors there are apparently (?) since they all show up in the films I've been watching in my personal little Scandinavian film festival. I don't know any of their names but I know their faces. And they are all blond hehe.

[Birchwood]

ah those Scandos, they are so great! We just need to look at them as examples for all of our lives, doncha think? And when their geography and diverse population matches that of this country, then yeah, I'll be willing to look at them as role models in all that we do.

It's funny you should mention this because last night I watched a Danish film In A Better World about the culture of personal violence, how boys and men view it and how they react as boys and men to violence. It was (and I mean this in a sincere and positive way) instructive and it provided fodder for deep thought in the way only good fiction does. In this film a father takes on a role of showing boys in his circle about turning the other cheek. But when he is finally confronted with ultimate evil he can't ignore, he releases the hounds (figuratively speaking) on the bad guy. It's directed by a woman.

It was a good film, and I am struck by how few Scandinavian actors there are apparently (?) since they all show up in the films I've been watching in my personal little Scandinavian film festival. I don't know any of their names but I know their faces. And they are all blond hehe.
Iris Lily, What we see from a distance is not real. These folks at Scandos are very good in portraying theirs as cultured and superior, peaceful and clean- but if you look deep into their society, they have their own problems and bigoted towards their neighbors.
See, I used to be engaged to a Swedish lady. I have been to Sweden, lived there for months, studied the culture, it's people. They are the most bigoted, unfriendly to others not their kind, They are narrow minded, nativistic, and just plain impolite to strangers. I hope you read how they treat immigrants to their country. It will make USA look better. I'll grant you Swedish women are just pretty to me!

[iris lily]

Iris Lily, What we see from a distance is not real. These folks at Scandos are very good in portraying theirs as cultured and superior, peaceful and clean- but if you look deep into their society, they have their own problems and bigoted towards their neighbors.
See, I used to be engaged to a Swedish lady. I have been to Sweden, lived there for months, studied the culture, it's people. They are the most bigoted, unfriendly to others not their kind, They are narrow minded, nativistic, and just plain impolite to strangers. I hope you read how they treat immigrants to their country. It will make USA look better. I'll grant you Swedish women are just pretty to me!

I am not at all surprised by what you say. My Swiss relatives were wicked unhappy with all of the Turks invading their country, and theirs was a country in need of workers. It' pretty much the same everywhere,

[Zoebird]

Haven (in the scandi spelling) or in a better world is a *great* and thought-provoking film.

my friend is swedish. she says being a swede is actually tough if you are not like all other swedes. and it's basically very easy to be a 'fall out of line' person -- because the culture narrowly defines things.

when we were in denmark for a summer, we saw a lot of issues. the danes were very open about the fact that they were really unhappy with cultural diversity. A lot of refugees were welcomed into the country. But danes figure that if you want to live in denmark, you want to be danish -- which means acculturating. The fact that so many refugees were not acculturating was very frustrating to them. That being said, they were also very protective of these people -- if someone got a bit aggressive towards refugee ladies at their shopping, for example, danish men (who had jsut been complaining that those same ladies weren't acculturating), would get up and defend them because it's not right that people should suffer. So, there are two sides of the coin.

with this, one of our good friends was danish and moved to the US. he felt that danish culture was too constricting to his worldview and what he watned to do. He actually sees himself as "not really danish" because of how he deviates.

It might also be noted that these scandinavian cultures have been in existence for a very long time. So, it's got a long history like "english" or some such. countries that are newer and striving to define themselve smight have more difficulty, you know?

[lucas]

Hi there folks,

It's interesting to read people's views on the sources of war and conflict, and it's very sad to see what's happening in Palestine again ... Competition for resources seems to underpin most international conflict. Even in the MIddle East, where there are strong identity-based frictions, it seems to me very unlikely things would be unfolding the way they are if it weren't for the fact the only global superpower finds itself with only one 'reliable' ally in the most energy-rich region of the world. All wars end eventually, though, and ultimately ordinary people in Israel, Palestine and anywhere else you care to think of - be it Iran, Denmark, Gabon or Colombia - want the same thing - to be able to live their lives in peace, harmony and with a modicum of security and dignity. I might sound like a total hippy (and maybe I am!), but sooner or later the whole system of nation states, through which we are to a great extent obliged to adopt identities we played no part in creating, will have to give way to something more global and inclusive. Joseph Campbell writes some really interesting books about this, particularly with regard to how the basic tenets and functions of all the major religions are the same...

As for Scandinavian political model, I agree that no country is perfect and bigotry is everywhere. I think they're approach to social and economic policy is a lot more sensible that what most other industrialised coutries are doing, particularly with regard to minimising inequality. This should be even more apparent now, as there is growing consensus on the economic unsustainablity of wide inequality breaches. Growing inequality was key in creating the current economic crisis, as it was in bringing about the Great Depression...

While I haven't lived in a Scandanavian country myself, I know that the apparent 'rudeness' of the people is simply down to the way they experience communication. It's a cultural thing, that results in people from other cultures often mistakenly interpreting their behaviour as rude. To give a hypothetical example, the Dane who responds with one-word answers to your questions may actually be feeling perfectly warm and friendly towards you, even though he appears short and aloof - they just don't 'do' smalltalk in their culture. From their side of the interaction, they're trying to work out why the American or Brit can't stop talking!

ANyway, just my two cents... hope you're all having a good day wherever you are...

All the best,
Lucas

[bunnys]

Scandinavia is not "so peaceful." Remember all those Vikings raiding all of Northern Europe and slaughtering and taking all their goods? That went on for centuries.

And in the Middle East, those people have been riding around on horses and fighting each other for water and other scarce resources for hundreds of years before Islam was established--and then more of the same like crazy to get everyone to convert; all well before a drop of oil meant anything to them.

I just think it's the nature of humans to hate people who look and act and believe differently from them--regardless of where they're from.

[Zoebird]

Uhm, to be sure, the viking era is an interesting one. the actual process of viking was a very small part of the total culture at the time, which was mostly about going out and establishing villages, farms, and doing merchant work. They were also mercinaries (for a lot of different people/groups), and their 'viking' was mostly their own or competitive villages based on the way that norse people understood the necessity of honor.

While I"m not "white washing" their attack on monasteries or small villages for resources, this was actually a very small part of their overall culture at the time -- though definitely the one recorded because who does the recording? Monks, that's who. And instead of going "oh yes, it happens rarely, but it's brutal when it does." It gets all blown out of proportion.

That same era saw most of northern europe become christian to avoid german invasion and outside rule, and most viking was done on monasteries was due to the religious conflict. likewise, in the transition to christiandom, there was a lot of fighting amongst themselves about the old norse religion vs this new christian one.

sorry, but I just can't let norse people get as extreme a wrap for viking as they are given in common mythology. the actual research on the topic shows a really culturally sophisticated culture that was very egalitarian comparatively, even though there was slave ownership (even slaves had a certain measure of rights under the law and could be freed by law given certain circumstances), had a legal system that is the roots of many of our modern legal processes, and also were incredible craftsmen in a variety of fields.

They were also good at the art of war, as this was part of the worship of Odin, and women were also taught to fight because, ultimately, homes belonged to them and they were the last line of defense of home and children (hence the ideas of shield maidens enter the consciousness as well). Tolkien found them so sophisticated that the elves in his stories are based on them, and that the Rhohirrim (sp?) are based on the pre-viking norse peoples.

It's a much more rich history than "those horrible vikings." BUt, likewise during that era, new countries were forming there, and trying to keep out german rule in the process -- and thereby the idea that it's because of "newness" and not being 'settled' that there was violence, not because of an inherent violence of the people themselves.

And, you can see the echos of viking law and ideology in modern scandinavian people, honestly. They may no longer be following the paths of odinic worship for men, but otherwise, pretty much all of the best of that society has been carried forward.

[pinkytoe]

I work with a lot of international students and always find it interesting that they seek each other out (whatever country they are from) and end up hanging with their own tribe for the most part. I also note that the blacks and hispanics I work with prefer each other's company. We as a society keep trying to be inclusive and diverse but human nature is what it is and not easy to change.

[Rogar]

An interesting question to think about. Required reading for one of my college courses back in the day was Conrad Lorenz's book, "On Aggression". His theory was that aggression is biological programming as a survival mechanism related to food, mating, and territory. In the modern world I think this translates into conflict between the haves and have nots. My purely unsubstantiated theory is that this is compounded in places with high unemployment among the "have nots", where their situation seems hopeless, and they have plenty of idle time to commiserate and little to loose.

Not an all encompassing theory, but it explains a lot. Like why, generally speaking, successful economies whose basic needs are satisfied tend not to attack each other.

My knowledge of anthropology is weak, but there are some good examples of matriarchal societies or those where the sexes have equal roles in social structure are generally less aggressive. Like the Hopi, for example.

[Gregg]

Every country would wage war against someone. Most just can't afford to do it.

[Gardenarian]

The U.S seems to be using war mongering as a jobs project.