Study Woes - Struggling with new language

[Cypress]

In September, I began a Conversational Italian language class. The class is now completed and I have gained some basic knowledge. The teacher is from Naples and while she is not a trained educator, has introduced some of the basics skills. The teacher has organized a conversational language group to meet every other Saturday starting this weekend. I plan to attend. And, I will try out a private language class with this teacher starting in December. She offered me a reasonable fee. This may not be viable due to on-going cost despite the reduced fee offered. I have also been listening to Pimsleur basic Italian and am about finished with the 16 ½ hour lessons. While this program on CD has been helpful with pronunciation and common use in the language, the conversation is tedious spending a ½ hour talking about a date for dinner, what time it is, counting euro’s…………….it’s okay but again, something is lacking. I can tell I have gained knowledge but there is so much more to know.

I feel discouraged in my progress as I can only give the language maybe an hour or so each day. At this point, I have barely grasped sentence structure and am getting confounded by the complexity of it all. I may have been naïve about what I was getting in to. It has been difficult to sort out what home learning language program may be the best buy. I do not have home internet due to cost. I have a small budget and this is definitely an extra. An interest I wish to pursue. The struggle seems endless with trying to find connections. I’ve tried to find a pen pal in Italy or USA but have not been successful. I am uncertain where to advertise.

I’d appreciate hearing from somebody that was in a similar position and how they continued on. I guess I feel I am getting some language, making the best of what resources I have but feeling discouraged. The long term goal is to have enough skill that I can switch into Italian, speak it comfortably, read in Italian and eventually plan a trip and enjoy. What would be a comprehensive plan of home study that is affordable and enjoyable? How did you do this on your own? What resources are truly necessary for language acquisition?

Finding something as simple as a movie in Italian language has been difficult too, all the Italian language films at the library seem to have been pilfered. I just want to watch this a few times and hopefully, get a grasp of some language and culture. Why does it feel like I meet one obstacle after another!

Why am I doing this? Because in June, I fell in love with all things Italian and may have conjured up the unrealistic fantasy of moving to Italy within the next five years. This might all be a midlife crisis. It’s hard to describe the sensation of happiness that washes over me. Nothing else brings such joy, they are only moments but so worthwhile. I keep thinking those moments will expand and be common. Why couldn’t I fall in love with butterflies!

[Zoe Girl]

I am working on spanish so I understand. i learned French in college but have not kept up with it.

Honestly it sounds like you are doing well, it takes a long time to get a language fully but you can do a lot with a little. Maybe not enough to move there yet but enough to get along. One of the things that is very hard for me is to simply put myself in situations where I know I will not understand enough. That is a great way to learn but it is also scary. Look at how many Americans take language courses and never speak it or how many immigrants are shy about using English even after many years.

Th econversation class will be the best, you can use the grammar right away in the class. For more common languages in larger cities there is often a meet-up group in teh area. I found both French and Spanish groups in my area but only attended a French group once. There was an on-line program that had a chat feature I really liked. It had a reasonable monthly fee but I was not able to devote some regular time to it so it did not make sense then.

[SteveinMN]

I've lost so much of what I knew of languages other than English, simply because I did not get much of a chance to practice them. If I were to pick one up again, though, I think I would consider reading Italian Web sites (like sites for newspapers in Italy or perhaps you could find a site that specializes in an interest of yours, like cooking or gardening?). I know you said you do not have home Internet, but this is the kind of thing you could do once you found Internet access elsewhere.

Another option might be to ask your instructor for contacts. Perhaps (s)he could establish a level-appropriate connection (pen pal or such) in Italy. Maybe converse with an elementary-grade class where you can practice Italian and they can practice some English (maybe even a skills swap?).

But if you can swing the conversational class, I would try to keep it going. I found those the toughest classes I took because of the lack of structure, but I certainly learned a practical lot about the language in question.

[Rosemary]

It's intense brain exercise. I can sympathize - I've been learning piano for the past year and I can just feel the gears in my brain grinding to a halt when I try to make my left hand and right hand play different things. It can be very discouraging. I'm trying to approach it the same way I do other projects - seeing the value of it in the DOING, rather than in the accomplishment or in the completion.

[fidgiegirl]

Very well stated, Rosemary. You know more now than you did when you started, and you'll continue to know more.

I speak Spanish quite fluently and am trained as a Spanish teacher. To get there, I was in classes for eight years, including a university major and a total of 2.5 years living in Spanish-speaking countries. At my peak, I was training to go into interpreting. That was 10 years ago. Now, I'd have to work dang hard to get back up to that level. I'm still good, but it's a use-it-or-lose-it thing.

I think an hour a day when not living in country is FANTASTIC.

Check YouTube for native language videos. Perhaps some are subtitled so you can confirm your understanding and make new connections.

I have found that in the Twin Cities libraries are great places for language events as well as Barnes & Noble stores.

Speak, speak, speak - out loud. I used to speak in the car, because it was completely non threatening to do that by myself. I could experiment with the pronunciation, with different verb forms, etc. Later, when I got really good, I would try to interpret the radio. Not recommended. Interpreting is too intense to try to do while driving!!

When you do end up moving to Italy, you'll continue to grow in your language skills, and then you'll be able to pair cultural knowledge up with your language skills to become a really good speaker.

Keep at it!!!!

[bae]

I find making use of the Internet for maintaining and developing language skills is very helpful. I use the BBC's foreign language news services as my usual start. When I was a kid, Pre-Internet, I relied upon their shortwave programming.

[Zoe Girl]

Can I go slightly off topic to fidgie,

I have funds to hire an ESL teacher in my school. I have only had 2 replies to my interest flyer (we are 16% spanish speaking, the lowest percentage I have worked with in awhile). However I have parents who are struggling with employment and want to learn Spanish as well. So I am thinking about a cooperative class, something like 30 minutes spanish and 30 minutes english in pairs or small groups. I have a huge interest in helping spanish speakers see the value they bring rather than just the deficit they have from needing better english.

[fidgiegirl]

Zoe G, I love this idea. I think bilingual children in particular need all the validation they can get. Our nation's economy and national security hinge on bilingual people, and we should be developing that!

You are in after-school right? I think if you didn't hire an ESL licensed person during the day you could be violating the law (students are entitled to services, Lau v. Nichols) but in an after-school I wonder if you can be more flexible.

There is an organization in the Twin Cities that has been doing this kind of work for many years, the Jane Addams School for Democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Addams_School_for_Democracy). It isn't solely language-focused, it is also to help individuals prepare for citizenship examinations. But it IS a both-ways learning space. Neat stuff.

[bae]

So I am thinking about a cooperative class, something like 30 minutes spanish and 30 minutes english in pairs or small groups. I have a huge interest in helping spanish speakers see the value they bring rather than just the deficit they have from needing better english.

That is a super idea!

[Miss Cellane]

Cypress, to put your efforts into perspective--the military recently wanted my brother to learn a new language. It took 18 months of four hours a day in a one-on-one class with a native speaker, plus an additional 4-6 hours a day of homework. My brother now feels that he can read fairly well with a dictionary, and he can carry on a simple conversation. He understands a bit more of the spoken word. He cannot carry on a fluent conversation unless it is in simple language using vocabulary that he is familiar with. And my brother has a knack for learning languages--prior to this, they have had him learn Korean, Russian, Turkish, German and Spanish. (Although the Korean wasn't as difficult as you might think, once he met my charming Korean sister-in-law).

I think you are right about where you ought to be--it takes longer to learn a language as an adult. A hour a day is a lot to devote to this.

If you really want to improve, can you plan a trip to Italy?

Or do what my brother has done, and find a job in an Italian restaurant where Italian is spoken by many of the customers? (My brother does this when he is state-side and needs to keep his Turkish or Russian skills alive.)

[Zoe Girl]

[QUOTE=fidgiegirl;113673]Zoe G, I love this idea. I think bilingual children in particular need all the validation they can get. Our nation's economy and national security hinge on bilingual people, and we should be developing that!

You are in after-school right? I think if you didn't hire an ESL licensed person during the day you could be violating the law (students are entitled to services, Lau v. Nichols) but in an after-school I wonder if you can be more flexible.

QUOTE]

I will checkthat out, I ogt big ideas all the time. I am actually thinking of an adult class. Part of my grant is ongoing adult programming. So then I wouldn't need a certified teacher in the same way however I think an ESL teacher would be the best to facilitate the class and make each lesson on a focused topic

[herbgeek]

I had a language teacher say that it takes 2000 hours of practice to be comfortable in conversation. I think that number is a little high, but does give some perspective.

[puglogic]

Cypress,
I'd google Italian language immersion program.
The only way I could ever convert class-learned conversation to real conversation was through an immersion trip.
Of course you'd have to go to Italy for at least a couple of weeks.
Darn

:)

[Cypress]

Miss Cellane

This is a most interesting idea. There is an Italian restaurant one town over and the owner does speak the language. I am not certain if it is a dialect, but it might be worth exploring. I need the second job in order to save enough to go over. I am planning the trip to the point where I am sorting out renting an apartment through HomeAway.com or a hiking tour maybe through Tuscany or Sicily. I found a resource for free hiking guides and maps from someone ready to part with theirs.

I had a moment of doubt with the language teacher. She is not formally trained but from Naples and therefore a resource. She made the error of addressing me incorrectly via e-mail. My name is Frances. She wrote to Francis. This is a pet pet pet peeve of mine. Italian is gender based language and the fact that she made the error makes me doubt her competency giong forward. I may be wound up with the idea that it took awhile to find this resource, but if she let's me down, where next? I live in a fairly vanilla area of the state. The Italian community may take effort to reach. After work, home care, etc...not much time for fun. This is fun trying to squish in around responsbilities. Oh I need three of me!!!


If you really want to improve, can you plan a trip to Italy?

Or do what my brother has done, and find a job in an Italian restaurant where Italian is spoken by many of the customers? (My brother does this when he is state-side and needs to keep his Turkish or Russian skills alive.)[/QUOTE]

[lhamo]

Cypress,

I wouldn't make too much out of the name mistake. People don't have the same sensitivity to names outside their culture -- my name gets screwed up all the time, even by people who know me well and speak English well.

I would look for any and every opportunity to immerse yourself in the language. When I first went to Taiwan for an intensive Chinese program, I'd had about 2.5 years of college level Chinese but had not taken classes for over two years. My skills were VERY rudimentary, but I lived with a local family and watched TV with them every night, and then I would listen to talk radio in Chinese as I fell asleep. At first it was all just going totally over my head, but it was really important in terms of picking up on speech patterns and inflection, and gradually I was able to pick out more and more stuff I understood. I was thrilled when one night I figured out that the woman calling in was debating whether or not to get a divorce! (Not great for her, obviously, but a big step for me in that I really understood a bit of natural language). See if you can get some Italian radio stations over the internet or something. Children's TV shows are also great because the language is really stripped down (though cartoons can be difficult because of the way they stylize the voices).

I also second fidgiegirl's suggestion of talking to yourself, both out loud when you can and inside your head. If you like to walk, then listening to tapes and repeating sentence patterns can be a good companion -- it is less boring/mindnumbing if you combine it with physical activity and repeating the sentence patterns makes sure you really internalize the grammar, which is important.

It is hard to learn a language as an adult, but it sounds like you have great motivation! good luck and keep us posted about how it is going.

lhamo

[JaneV2.0]

I had a language teacher say that it takes 2000 hours of practice to be comfortable in conversation. I think that number is a little high, but does give some perspective.

Or a couple of glasses of wine, in my experience.

[JaneV2.0]

Go to the library, reserve a computer, and immerse yourself in Bee Line TV: http://beelinetv.com/ I love this site--I can indulge myself in the dizzy pleasure of being baffled by multiple languages all in one place. (They have everything from Arabic to Vietnamese channels.)

And ask your potential instructor to call you Francesca--it's your Italian moniker, after all.

[mira]

When learning a first foreign language outside of a country where it is spoken, it takes years of study to reach a point where something "clicks" and things like grammar and syllable stress become intuitive. I reached that point with Spanish after 4 years of high-school study and 3 at university level. Real fluency comes later when you are immersed in the language in a country where it is spoken.

The internet is an invaluable language-learning resource - look up videos in Italian, online language exchanges (with Italian-speakers who want to learn English), tutorials, dictionaries, newspapers, blogs etc.

Your language level and ability to 'unconsciously' understand (i.e. without huge mental effort) the language and its componets with dramatically improve if you increase your exposure to it in any way. It doesn't have to involve hours of laborious studying. Attempting to decipher the headlines of La Repubblica would even suffice!