We Are Losing The Battle - No, Seriously

[heydude]

When I posted "We are Losing the Battle" I wasn't talking about making sure "they" don't know how many beans you buy at the grocery store. Corporations are going and do know everything about us and we are not going to prevent that.

I am talking about the flip side. What do we have on our side?

The bean example is a good one.

The grocery store knows exactly what you are buying, how much, when, for what price, etc. etc.
This is a given. They use that information to market to you and get you to spend more.

ARE YOU GOING TO LET THEM WIN THAT BATTLE?

This is a good example. The flip side WOULD NOT BE "let's get them to not know how many beans I buy"

NO, THE FLIP SIDE is....

Do you know how many beans you buy at the grocery store? Are you tracking your spending and analyzing how it meets your life purpose and life energy? Are you crunching the numbers like they do? They hire accountants, marketers, researches to do this full time with benefits! When are you doing it? At 1am in between infomercials?

I challange us to think of more things that we need to do ourselves to make this all a more level playing field.

Instead of "buy $20 worth of food, get $5 cash back on your credit card," WHAT PROGRAMS CAN YOU COME UP WITH FOR YOURSELF?

"Save $20 this pay check and have $40 total in 5 years" etc.

WE GOTTA OUTSMART THEM! WE ARE LOSING THE BATTLE!

[Mrs. Hermit]

Good thought, and good way to express it.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Well I very much doubt they DO know how many beans I buy as I don't use store cards (and seldom shop at places that do use them), and almost always pay cash. But they could be using camera survilence making use of facial recognition software in order to film my order and my face and know exactly what I buy. Well yes the technical ability to do that exists ....

Two experiences with store cards recently, a drug store at which I ocassionally pick up some small thing or other, had a thing buy a bag of junky groceries for the homeless or something, caught my eye slightly, then I realized that you have to pay more to buy these groceries for the homeless without a card than with. Now that is a corporate blackness of soul so deep that there is no cure, when even your "help the homeless" donation program pushes you @#$# card! 2) People around me were discussing cards and how they never even know what the better priced item might be with all the card discounts and so on, and how it confuses them about prices. Ha, the way I do it (avoid card places mostly) I pretty much KNOW about what I'll be paying when I hit the checkout, I do the math in my head the whole way (rounding up to 50 cents - not bothering with the tax on a few taxable items). Although even the card pricing thing doesn't seem that confusing to get that confused.

All this marketing we're supposed to be exposed to, I tune it all out. No t.v., I don't look at supermarket flyers, I don't even coupon, I change the channel on the radio when a commercial comes on, etc. - plus many of their commercials are absurd, a new car is going to make me happy and stuff, how can something like that even kinda be taken seriously. Points of weakness are free samples at the grocery store and "look inside this book".

Having a list at the grocery store does seem to help, I force myself to look at what I have in the fridge first and try to plan the next weeks meals. I don't hit it exactly always, sometimes end up with some excess food I must freeze or something, and sure sometimes buy an impulse item (oooh free cheese sample ....). It mostly just helps with the buying way too much produce problem, plus ocassionally avoiding buying something I already have that's still good.

[catherine]

I totally agree. There's a really scary story in The Power of Habit, by Charles Duhigg about how Target is ready and waiting to ambush us:


Take, for example, Target, the giant retailer. Target collects all kinds of data on every shopper it can, including whether you’re married and have kids, which part of town you live in, how much money you earn, if you've moved recently, the websites you visit. And with that information, it tries to diagnose each consumer’s unique, individual habits.

Why? Because Target knows that there are these certain moments when our habits become flexible. When we buy a new house, for instance, or get married or have a baby, our shopping habits are in flux. A well-timed coupon or advertisement can convince us to buy in a whole new way. But figuring out when someone is buying a house or getting married or having a baby is tough. And if you send the advertisement after the wedding or the baby arrives, it’s usually too late.

So Target studies our habits to see if they can predict major life events. And the company is very, very successful. Oftentimes, they know what is going on in someone's life better than that person's parents.

So there are only a few strategies that can help us from revealing too much about ourselves to marketers:
--pay cash for everything
--don't "like" any businesses on Facebook (I would NEVER be one of those people to "like" a business just to get a deal on something: Every time I see one of my friends mentioned on a post like "Jane Doe Likes DealSwap" I think.. oh, no, another sellout)
--don't watch TV
--don't use loyalty cards

To be honest, I have subscribed to what I consider to be "higher ground" websites, like Deepak Chopra, The Nature Conservancy, Etsy.com, Patagonia. But guess what: ALL of these sites have sent me Black Friday emails! Arghhhhh!!!!

[flowerseverywhere]

since 1976 I can tell you how much money we made each year, how much we spent, how much we saved. After about 2000 I can tell you how much money I spent on groceries, clothing, utilities etc. each year. So I think I am winning the game.

Also, I buy a lot of stuff from farmers markets, sew my own clothes, make my own presents, so unless someone can look at some fabric yardage and determine what I am making I don't think they know much about me, even using a loyalty card. Except I am cheap and buy almost no conventional cleaning and paper products, and even few groceries.

[try2bfrugal]

I am talking about the flip side. What do we have on our side?

At the retail grocery stores I just go and buy the loss leaders and not much else. We try to limit how many convenience foods we buy. I think between not eating out and buying more whole foods at low overhead stores we have cut our food bill at least in half if not more. So far this month I have not spent much more than the food stamp challenge budget of $5 a day per person at the grocery store, and that includes some drinks and snacks for feeding guests, alcohol, mainly organic eggs and produce, some organic meat, and non food items like tissues and cleaning supplies. We could easily eat on $5 a day per person or even less and not go hungry at all if we only bought food for us and skipped the alcohol, nonfood items, organic foods and the frozen pizzas type stuff the kids like.

I do keep a detailed budget and a price spreadsheet. I rarely buy anything on impulse. I actually have been buying a lot of electronics lately to reduce our electric bill. It is interesting how few of these products are sold in the local stores compared to the low initial purchase price but higher lifetime cost items, like single use batteries and incandescent light bulbs. What I have also found interesting is that on my list of products that are highly rated, long lasting, healthy and will save us money in the long run - I haven't found any of my shopping list items so far on the Black Friday deals. I think the products that will save us money in terms of lifetime costs tend to be the opposite of the products that make the stores money over time.

[bunnys]

Why do we have to outsmart them? Why is this a battle? They just want to sell us more stuff. They want to collect as much info as possible about us so they can specifically direct the products to us they think we'll buy.

To me, I don't see that "the man" really factors that much into the way I consume. I buy what I want (and my want's, generally, are not influenced by advertising as I don't see much advertising at all) and I don't buy what doesn't interest me. If you think it's a battle, I'd say try and avoid the things they direct toward you to influence what you're purchasing (i.e., avoid advertising.)

[try2bfrugal]

I totally agree. There's a really scary story in The Power of Habit, by Charles Duhigg about how Target is ready and waiting to ambush us

That is a good book to read to understand how marketing works. Get into the Febreze habit? They couldn't pay me to spray my house with chemicals.

[heydude]

They know how many beans you buy becuase they know how many they sold. They can also break it down on to average per person. Did you buy the big size that costs less per pound or the single size that is more expensive per pound. Did you buy a certain bread with it, etc. They do know.

I am not talking about "the man" or evil corporations.

I am just trying to say that they all have a huge team devoted to getting everyone to buy. This can be everything from tax policy, store layout, to employee benefits. Paying cash does not take you out of the system. I am trying to get everyone to think bigger.

Maybe I should not frame this as an us VS. them, but instead, to say that not many people or organizations are devoted to getting us to spend less, live longer. Spend less, save more. Consume less and do your favorite things more.

I am just saying that so many professions, deals, systems are devoted to this consumer system (even the way your family, who is not an evil corporation, looks at money can be a factor). I am trying to say that there is not much ying for the yang. If we think about spending less in our free time, what would our side be like if there was a multi-billion dollar organization that was devoted to thinking up ways to get us all to live our life's purpose instead of consuming?

What then? Just think of what we haven't even thought of that we could. I am trying to inspire, not create a "hey you are crazy, the corporation is not evil" attitude.

[catherine]

I think you're framing it right, heydude. Corporations don't spend billions on advertising for nothing. They're not selling products--they're selling hope, status, love, beauty. I do think most of us here are slightly more immune to marketing messages, but I have no doubt that our culture is shaped by market forces that we are probably not even aware of. Try reading about Edward Bernays, father of public relations, to get some insight on his thoughts about "manipulation of public opinion." Or read Vance Packard, The Hidden Persuaders. Or read any of the books on branding, such as Lovemarks. I wouldn't say corporations are evil--they are given the task of selling their product using any legal means necessary. So far, advertising is still legal.

But, we don't have to fall for it.

[miradoblackwarrior]

Heydude--
My brother used to be in advertising. The wildly successful rate of an advertising campaign is 3%! Considering the millions--billions--of dollars big stores spend to part you from your hard earned cash, I'd say we've pretty much won!

On the other hand, no corporation, no advertising, is going to take my money without my sayso. I'd say most of us on this site are frugal enough not to be swayed by some spiffy car or the latest fad in fast food. I agree with paying with cash, because it is my choice. Also, it makes the corporations have to work a little harder to figure me out. I't like they think cash is some sort of alien invasion or something!

So, I'd say, we've pretty much won.

Susan

[ApatheticNoMore]

I don't mind the framing, I like big visions just fine :) Utopia is alright with me.


Corporations don't spend billions on advertising for nothing. They're not selling products--they're selling hope, status, love, beauty.

Yea but it's not black and white, sometimes goods actually do have value, there's something real there. So buy a fancy car, some beer, and live the dream. Are your electronics the most up-to-dateiest? If not better upgrade! Doesn't your kitchen need all new marble? Well no not really, of course not. But something like buying clothes that look presentable for work (and I really don't care if they are new or used) probably does pay off, other attempts might as well - a good haircut etc.. There's often some truth there buried somewhere .... Why? Because human psychology and society are complex. They don't act on a purely conscious level either. Something like taking a vacation. Waste of money right? Well maybe and maybe you vacation to a place for a few times decide to move there and that becomes your life. Waste of money? Or the wild roulette wheel, the mystery, that is life itself? Or maybe such is the most bizarre suggestion on earth. I don't know. There are things I think it is very hard to value. After the fact in the long run works of course :)


I do think most of us here are slightly more immune to marketing messages, but I have no doubt that our culture is shaped by market forces that we are probably not even aware of.

My opinion now is that much of the society is relentlessly brainwashed. And I regard our politics as exactly the same thing at this point. Of course such opinons are relentlessly arrogant, yes most people are brainwashed, why but except me ....

[bunnys]

I guess the way I look at is that I don't consume much not because I'm restraining myself. I just don't want to consume much. Generally, it's not a struggle for me to live simply because I get pleasure from it. So for me, advertising misses it's mark. I don't see it in terms of being sexier, cooler, smarter or more popular. I just don't equate buying stuff with those things.

I think for a lot of people that sales pitch in some way strikes something in them that is part of who they are. But for me it isn't who I am so kind of like selling a seeing eye dog to someone who isn't blind or a Hoveround scooter to someone who's ambulatory. It just doesn't apply.

[heydude]

I just want a revolution beyond our awesome individual lives. I am dreaming bigger.

The question should not be, "how much did you save to fulfill your life's purpose," the question should be one that we have not yet thought of, because we, as a people, have not dared to go there....beyond the current frame they have made for us and we have left unchecked.

We can all lead great individual simple lives, but what could we do if a whole revolution took place and we could begin to create a world where forums like this need not exist.

[iris lily]

This is overblown:

So Target studies our habits to see if they can predict major life events. And the company is very, very successful. Oftentimes, they know what is going on in someone's life better than that person's parents.

It is not true, anyone's marketing to me whether it be online or by mail is clumsy, awkward, and does not anticipate my interests and desires. I will say that the online ads are kind of interesting in how they focus on what I was looking for last week, but--that was last week, idiots! I am done with that interest and have moved on to the next one.

[heydude]

The Thread Under "Frugality, Products, Purchases" entitled "Cyber Monday Victory" is a pure perfect example of what I am trying to say. It is fitting the OP used the word "victory" as I have been talking about the "battle" here.

In the thread, the OP states that the victory was saying no to a few "good deals" on the internet on Cyber Monday.

This is the pure win for sure!

Not only because the OP did not succumb to the sales, but actually changed the world view to establish "victory" as not scoring the best deal out there, but rather, as not buying anything!

[Fawn]

This is overblown:

So Target studies our habits to see if they can predict major life events. And the company is very, very successful. Oftentimes, they know what is going on in someone's life better than that person's parents.

It is not true, anyone's marketing to me whether it be online or by mail is clumsy, awkward, and does not anticipate my interests and desires. I will say that the online ads are kind of interesting in how they focus on what I was looking for last week, but--that was last week, idiots! I am done with that interest and have moved on to the next one.

Actually they do predict major life events. In some book I was reading recenlty (Switch? Habits? I can't remember) the author(s) noted that Target is able to predict if a woman is pregnant and when she is due by her purchasing habits and then target (Ha! get it? Target?) their marketing to what she will likely buy next. It looks sorta like this:
January--three pregnancy test strips
February--not much unusual
March--vitamins and body lotion
April--a couple maternity outfits
May--a lot of maternity outfits
June--a crib
July--a stroller
August--some newborn diapers and outfits
September--formula and bottles

And by Christmas time they are sending ads for their photo services (to record those precious memories) and every other knick knack needed for a modern child.

[catherine]

Fawn it was The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg--I referenced in the post that Iris Lily refers to, and I quoted part of editorial description of that part of the book.

Iris Lily, I have no doubt that no one is going to tell YOU what to do or what to buy ;)
But, I see an awful lot of people out there under the spell of sophisticated marketing techniques.* Sorry, you're not going to convince me that advertisers and marketers don't sway the masses. Why else would people stand in line for hours on end for a phone, or a Cabbage Patch doll for their kids, or any number of items that have proven themselves the fittest in brainwashing us that we really need them?

And, I've slept with the enemy and I KNOW how they think and what they do.


*And I'm not talking little flyers or e-mail. I'm talking about SOPHISTICATED techniques to link products to desires.

[SteveinMN]

I'm talking about SOPHISTICATED techniques to link products to desires.
I gotta say, if the other side wants to win the war, they could do a whole lot better than whoever/whatever is picking the ads I see on-line (Facebook, search-engine suggestions). I find it encouraging that they haven't yet sussed out humans entirely.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Yea, it's kind of cute, like how Amazon book recommendations mostly don't recommend books you'd actually like to read, but just once in a while. It's not AI, it would NOT pass a Turing test. If it was, and it's probably coming, it would be a little creepy. The average human paying attention could recommend books I might like better probably. But it's just clunky little amateur algorithm, by random luck something good shows up ocassionally.

As for "liking" some corporate entity, hahaha, no I'll like a small business if I want to keep them in business (it's a selfish thing :)), or a small non-profit or something if I view them as positive for the world. But how could I like a corporate entity? It's not in the nature of the beast. They may at best command brand loyalty, as in I shop there, buy the brand whatever. But the nature of the beast is profit at all costs, if that means unethical practices, if that means changing their product and lowering quality etc.. But all that can switch me off of something. So to like such a nebulous nothing, to like what, a collection of stockholders? I dont' think so.

[JaneV2.0]

This is overblown:

So Target studies our habits to see if they can predict major life events. And the company is very, very successful. Oftentimes, they know what is going on in someone's life better than that person's parents.

It is not true, anyone's marketing to me whether it be online or by mail is clumsy, awkward, and does not anticipate my interests and desires. I will say that the online ads are kind of interesting in how they focus on what I was looking for last week, but--that was last week, idiots! I am done with that interest and have moved on to the next one.

Haha! The sisterhood of the short attention span. So far today I've moved from forties' fashion to missing persons in Alaska, and the day's barely started. (There's still that book on werewolves to finish...)

[try2bfrugal]

Here is how The Onion explains the links between journalism and advertising. The Adobe youtube video link at the end of the article on marketing analytics is cute.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/please-click-on-our-websites-banner-ads,30513/