Status, jobs, crap etc

[mira]

I've been thinking a lot lately about how so much of our self-worth in relation to others tends to be derived from (perceived) social status that our jobs apparently provide us.

I often notice that I feel somewhat inferior to people who have important-sounding or well-paid jobs. This includes some of my friends! I know it doesn't make any sense and I know that letting a job title or salary define yourself and others can be very foolish. In some ways, I feel pity that some of these people have to work so many hours in order to keep that title or that salary, while I get a three-day weekend every week... but I still always end up feeling like they have the right to look down on me.

So, my question is: how do you truly stop measuring yourself and others by jobs and salaries?

[ApatheticNoMore]

I often notice that I feel somewhat inferior to people who have important-sounding or well-paid jobs. This includes some of my friends! I know it doesn't make any sense and I know that letting a job title or salary define yourself and others can be very foolish.

Yes but you have to play a game in which you must prettend it matters x hours a week to earn a paycheck right? "Yes, bossperson, yes, whatever you say". An act if you will sure, but play it that many hours and need to to survive and you might even sometimes start to think the role is real. Especially as it plays into so many hooks that were already there, evolutionary hooks, heirarchy etc..


In some ways, I feel pity that some of these people have to work so many hours in order to keep that title or that salary, while I get a three-day weekend every week...

Ohh am jealous of that, but don't know many jobs in the U.S. that allow 3 day weekends. I think low pay pretty much just means low pay :\ (and sometimes bad treatment as well!). Well I have no cure. Self-employment? Oh yea sure everyone is going to adopt that cure ....


So, my question is: how do you truly stop measuring yourself and others by jobs and salaries?

Internally you can to a great degree, but see above.

[sweetana3]

Do something for someone else. Hubby derives great satisfaction from his two volunter "jobs". He loves the people he works with and the good that they are doing for others. It helps that the group takes suggestions from people and will implement them.

My husband did not care about his job status when working but he enjoyed the job and the people he worked with. The company deteriorated over time and when the layoffs/retirement came he was so very unhappy. He missed the people the most. I am thankful he is now finding fufillment working for others in a volunteer capacity.

It does not have to be full time, but giving to others helps in so many ways.

ps: It also helps to avoid media of all kinds.

[SteveinMN]

how do you truly stop measuring yourself and others by jobs and salaries?
I quit being envious of titles when I realized that titles were free. They really don't indicate skill or power or influence. "Vice Presidents" at banks are a dime a dozen. There's probably a Vice President of Environmental Support Services at some bank -- the janitor (no offense to bank employees; it's just a title). I once volunteered at a church with the Director of Communications. Sounded lofty, but he was the only one in the "department" and he did everything. Even I, as a lowly Dilbert-esque tech weenie, controlled a few million dollars worth of hardware and software, and that's before we even got to the influence I had on software applications that people wanted to introduce.

It's been harder for me to get past measuring by salary. The money your organization gives you is one of the few indicators of the value they perceive you to have. But compensation comes in multiple ways. It's not an accurate comparison to say "I earn $2,000 a month but Jane Doe over there earns $1,500 a month" without knowing who is paying for health insurance or a company car or even the office space and staff used. And it's incredibly hard to put a price tag on the whole compensation scheme.

The key for me, though, is that I have enough. Sure, I would be happier to be paid twice as much as I was. I think what we pay CxOs in the U.S is obscene and far beyond their actual productive contributions to their organizations, but I sure would have fun trying to live on a monthly salary that was ten times higher than my annual salary. But I have a life I enjoy, I'm not living from paycheck to paycheck, I have my health and my sanity, and I really could not ask for more out of life. I'm not dumping half of my life into a job every week, I'm not committing people to poverty or death as part of their work. I'm doing well. I'm having fun! And, from that perspective, that matters much more to me than whether my neighbor makes more than I did.

[herbgeek]

So, my question is: how do you truly stop measuring yourself and others by jobs and salaries?

I'm not sure you can. Awareness of pecking order has been around a long time, as well as being obvious in the animal kingdom. We all compare ourselves to others. If you feel you come up short, you can do a couple of things about it: 1) if you are jealous about someone higher on the pecking order than you, you can find out what it took for them to get to where they are, and aspire to improve your skills or education so that you can reach that level too or 2) if you really aren't interested in furthering your career, you can find some other passion that really captures your heart and energy. If you are so full of joy, you'll be less likely to compare yourself. People who feel something is lacking in their own life tend to notice more what others are doing.

[pinkytoe]

I work with two people who have Harvard MBAs (one was my boss); they are not nice people. I don't know if their is a correlation but in the end, I hold a person in higher esteem by their actions than by their titles or degrees. If they feel superior, then it's entirely their own opinion. I truly believe that kindness and empathy is the most important trait a human can have and all else is just window dressing.

[ApatheticNoMore]

1) if you are jealous about someone higher on the pecking order than you, you can find out what it took for them to get to where they are, and aspire to improve your skills or education so that you can reach that level too or

the last thing in the universe some people would ever want to be is management! However, I can see becoming more skilled at what you do, a highly skilled whatever, just management ... shudder ...

[Alan]

Status is an illusion that a person can either buy into, or not. I spent much of my life buying into it and eventually realized the error of my ways after spending years interacting with famous, influential, rich and powerful people. It turns out that they're all just normal people who happen to live different lives than the rest of us, although with the same problems and concerns.

My associations, and opportunities resulting from my associations, afforded me a certain level of status which I enjoyed until I realized that it wasn't me. It was other's erronious perception of me. I finally realized that most of the really successful people I knew didn't buy into it either. That realization was humbling, but ultimately very satisfying.

[JaneV2.0]

Years ago, I read in the local paper that a high school friend had been appointed to some lofty public position like "drug czar." They listed her salary and I was amused that it was pretty much what I made at my hourly union job, before overtime.

Then my college sorority (Pi Phi) sent around a questionnaire to find out what we had been up to in the years since graduation. Apparently my answers weren't suitable, as I never heard from them again. (And it's not like I had done time or anything...)

I agree with Alan about buying in. Whatever status I have is intrinsic and incidental.

[catherine]

My son serves tables and bar tends. Has never been to college. Writes and plays great music. Is an extremely warm, loving, kind, funny human being.

But when he lived here in NJ, he had a huge chip on his shoulder because the people he served were all Hoboken professionals who lived and breathed their jobs, and while in his head he knew they were no better then he, in his heart, he felt the impact of the New York metro pecking order.

I was so happy when he moved to Vermont, where he is now bartending at the premiere organic farm-to-table restaurant in Burlington. He still feels that injustice of measuring people using the wrong stick, but at least in VT there are so many more people who work to live, not live to work.

[try2bfrugal]

The Millionaire Next Door is a good read. The millionaires profiled were usually pretty down to earth people who clipped coupons and shopped at Costco. A lot of the people who flaunted their wealth or positions profiled in the book were often big hat, no cattle types.

[lucas]

Howdy folks,

This is a great thread. Like some others have pointed out, I think it may be difficutl to entirely stop comparing oneself to others when we live in a society that actively fosters interpersonal comparison (indeed some would say a society that is based on fostering inequality too)... One of the things that I have really noticed is the profoundly subjective nature of those comparisons... I decided to change 'career' at the age of 30, and as a result I've started in a new field where there are often people younger than me in more senior positions... at the same time, a great many of my friends see me as being really 'together' and compare themselves to me, saying that I've had two careers and they haven't even had one... at the end of the day there's always someone else who's doing better, and in all likelihood they're looking back at you and giving themselves a good whipping... They have a great saying in Alcoholics Anonymous - 'don't compare your insides to other people's outsides'... it makes a lot of sense, we all tend to focus on the comparisons that don't present us in a positive light, and then we go looking for someone else to 'feel better than'... for me it's important to try to see the person rather than the position... I may sound like a total hippy here, but I find making the effort to look into people's eyes really helps - it's like you connect to something more than just their job and title...

ALl the best,
Lucas

[ApatheticNoMore]

This is allowed as the title of a thread but don't say cocktails or wristwatch. Haha, I don't mind though, I frequently edit my threads when I'm slipping into bad language. Someone (me) has a potty mouth! :)

ETA: they're now ok: cocktails, cocktails, cocktails!

[bae]

So, my question is: how do you truly stop measuring yourself and others by jobs and salaries?

I've had the inverse problem for the past dozen years or so. I took the YMOYL message seriously, and "retired" when I was in my mid-30s. I've found it somewhat depressing to observe how many people open up their conversations with questions about your place of employment or position, and when they don't get back a conventional response, dismiss you as a person of no interest, influence, or accomplishment...

In truth though, I've found this behaviour to be a great filtering mechanism...

[puglogic]

In truth though, I've found this behaviour to be a great filtering mechanism...

Ditto.

[lhamo]

I work with two people who have Harvard MBAs (one was my boss); they are not nice people. I don't know if their is a correlation but in the end, I hold a person in higher esteem by their actions than by their titles or degrees. If they feel superior, then it's entirely their own opinion. I truly believe that kindness and empathy is the most important trait a human can have and all else is just window dressing.

I'm in the middle of a book by a British journalist who quit his job as head of the Paris Bureau for the Daily Telegraph to go to Harvard Business School. Understand his desire to get out of journalism, but HBS sounds like a pretty awful place, to be honest -- mostly high school jock cliques pumped up with the desire for obscene wealth and waaaaay too much self-importance. Interesting to pull back the curtain and see how the global elite is being prepared for their financial domination of the planet. I wish someone had used his description of what private equity firms do and the devestation they wreck on their takeover targets in the discussion of Bain Capital (which he mentions as an example).

I'm a pretty non-heirarchical person so I don't get too het up about salaries or titles, but respect is important to me. I fought tooth and nail to defend my salary at my previous position when they tried to give me a 20% paycut because it was a matter of principle to me. But then I accepted my current position at a salary pretty close to what the cut would have given me at the previous place. I was ok with that because I knew it was all that was budgeted, and I have since worked my way back up to the original salary level.

lhamo

[Blackdog Lin]

I've never bought in to that social status stuff, but I suspect a lot of that comes from my geography. I still live in the small hometown I grew up in, in the midwest. We don't have a lot of opportunities for "culture" around here, and what high-society we have, well, it's just not that high, you know? High-paying professional jobs are nonexistent. Also, because it's such a small town, where everyone knows everyone else's business, even the more well-off people are looked at just like the rest of us, because everyone knows whose kids have taken a bad turn, or who's sleeping around, or who overbought their too-high priced house and is now having trouble making the mortgage. Just the way it is in a small town, you kinda learn to not necessarily "look up" to those who SEEM to have more.

Personally, too, I see so many people in so many thankless jobs that I realize I just couldn't do - so I could never look down on them. I have a niece who's a CNA at a nursing home - she makes barely above minimum wage and deals with all the heavy lifting and the puke and the poo. And my SIL is a grade school teacher, dealing with all those kids. These are jobs that I just could never do (well, I'm grateful that I never had to. So. Not. Me.). So to me, I've always felt that any job worthy of a paycheck is a worthy job.

I really can't think of anyone in my social circle who seems to be snobbish this way. Again, I think it's just the geography of living in a small town.

[citrine]

I have never bought into that way of thinking....that is why I never moved up in corporate despite having the credentials. I refuse to treat someone differently just because they have a title. I also look at the person's actions, if they are kind, and what they say with with eyes. I am self employed and usually have 3-4 days off to do whatever I want...the bills are paid, there is money in the bank, and we will be able to retire well. That is all that really matters in the end!

[Lainey]

Ditto.

Seconding bae and puglogic.
Maybe we can all make a pact to quit asking new acquaintences "What do you do?" as a first question, and let our impression of them evolve without putting them into a pre-ordained stereotype based on how they make their living. I know it's a standard ice-breaker question, but it can also sideline or shuts down a conversation pretty quickly.

[catherine]

Seconding bae and puglogic.
Maybe we can all make a pact to quit asking new acquaintences "What do you do?" as a first question,

I don't think the question is the problem. I think our defenses are the problem. When I do focus groups and ask a warm up question, I typically ask things like "tell me what you do during the day and what you like to do in your free time." But I still think that if we get defensive over the question "what do you do?" I think that's our problem. When I was a stay at home mom, I'd say, I'm a stay at home mom. When I was a word processor, I'd say I was a word processor. Why apologize for anything??

[puglogic]

Why apologize for anything??

I know I'm not the least bit apologetic, nor do I get upset at the question. I sometimes get irritated at the reaction to my answer (as bae mentions) because the life I choose seems to fall outside the comprehension of most desk jockeys who ask the question.

It's funny, but nowadays I seldom find myself asking people "what do you do?" I know so many people now with unorthodox lives that it seems like kind of a weird question.

[ApatheticNoMore]

When I ask I'm usually looking for some better way to earn a living than this, I haven't found it clearly. You would think you know it's gotta be out there somewhere ... but meh, so thought Ponce de León.

[iris lily]

Tom Ashbrook on NPR interviewed these guys http://www.theminimalists.com/fired/ last night. They didn't say anything that we don't know already, but it was great to hear young guys who are getting it. One of them had a big corporate job as operations manager for 130 retails stores. He talked about how he came to the realization that more money and more stuff didn't make him happy, and how he moved out of that life into one that allows him to work much less and buy only stuff that gives his life value.that

[catherine]

Tom Ashbrook on NPR interviewed these guys http://www.theminimalists.com/fired/ last night.

I have their book. I feel I'm not the target audience, with two generations between us, probably, but they're fun to read.

[Tradd]

I've had some interesting conversations lately. I enjoy what I do as well as find it challenging. I seem to have found my niche. I've found that a good number from friends to others in my office (not my department) who don't like their jobs or who are having a difficult time work-wise (out of work, searching for something new, things currently cruddy at job they do have) actually get resentful, jealous, or somewhere in between that I'm enthusiastic about my career (it's gone from job to career). Not one would want my actual job, but the concept of something actually liking what they do is something they can't quite get their brains around.

[chrisgermany]

My son serves tables and bar tends. ..

I was so happy when he moved to Vermont, where he is now bartending at the premiere organic farm-to-table restaurant in Burlington. He still feels that injustice of measuring people using the wrong stick, but at least in VT there are so many more people who work to live, not live to work.

He has a great mom who values him as the person he is.

Compare to this Dad:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9686219/I-am-bitterly-bitterly-disappointed-retired-naval-officers-email-to-children-in-full.html

[herbgeek]

Maybe we can all make a pact to quit asking new acquaintences "What do you do?" as a first question,

I tend to ask "what do you do for fun?". Its a great filtering mechanism too. For those who have great passions and interests, their energy comes through. Then there are those who look like deer in the headlights and stammer (you mean I'm supposed to have FUN?).

[leslieann]

I'm with herbgeek: "What do you LIKE to do?" is my go-to question. I also ask it in the therapy room and the answers are illuminating.

People could also answer "what do you do?" with their passions, interests, or hobbies. The question itself isn't necessarily about work. The fact that we interpret it that way says loads about our social expectations and work-biased culture.

[SteveinMN]

Not one would want my actual job, but the concept of something actually liking what they do is something they can't quite get their brains around.
I suspect they can get their brains around it quite well, but feel trapped by their "stories": "I need to make the pay I get in this job." "I don't know how to do anything else." "I'm comfortable in this. I'm too old to change/start over/do something different."

Let one of these people win tonight's Powerball and watch how quickly they find something they like to do.

[JaneV2.0]

I don't think the question is the problem. I think our defenses are the problem. When I do focus groups and ask a warm up question, I typically ask things like "tell me what you do during the day and what you like to do in your free time." But I still think that if we get defensive over the question "what do you do?" I think that's our problem. When I was a stay at home mom, I'd say, I'm a stay at home mom. When I was a word processor, I'd say I was a word processor. Why apologize for anything??

Pretty much my take on it. Less precious than "What makes you you?" Most of us do something. At least occasionally.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I mostly worry that whatever I say for fun isn't going to meet extro expectations of fun, so whatever. I'd probably just say something like take walks in nature, and they'll look at me like omg, the most boring person EVER .....

From now on I think I should start answering that question with "drugs". What do you do for fun? Drugs.

[mira]

I've really enjoyed reading all of these replies - thank you!

It really is an illusion. I try to constantly remind myself that so many other things are a much better measure of a person - their actions, attitude, etc but of course the Job Title yard stick is always lurking somewhere. I'm slowly learning how to try to disregard this and focus on what's really important. The advice and experiences that you all offer are such a wonderful help.

About the "What do you do?" thing - I've started making a conscious effort to avoid asking this very question, replacing it with "What kind of stuff do you enjoy doing?" and the like. The Minimalists, who were mentioned earlier, actually wrote a very good post on this: http://www.theminimalists.com/do/

I suppose this has been getting to me more than usual lately because I feel a certain resentment about not being able to get a professional-level job in my field, despite qualifying over two years ago. My job is not challenging and requires little mental effort, although it is in the right field. I feel like I'm lagging behind while my peers speed ahead :/

[ApatheticNoMore]

sent you a message

[Gardenarian]

Well, my status is important to me, in that I want to do my personal best. I don't care what other people think (generally) but I am proud of my own achievements. Paltry though they might seem to others, I know I have accomplished more than I ever imagined possible.

[pony mom]

Working in a day spa, I get a lot of clients looking for a massage to relieve stress. The spa is in an affluent part of NJ and most of my clients have high-paying jobs (many with pharmaceutical companies), have large homes, nice cars, vacations, and can afford services at the spa/salon. I don't make much money, but probably have a fraction of the stress they deal with. Many say I'm so lucky to have this job which is rewarding and helps people; however, I doubt they'd ever trade and give up what they have. They'll keep the stress, home and salary.

When someone asks "What do you do?", you shouldn't answer "I'm a.....whatever". You are not your job. You could be a smart-a** and say "Oh, I hike, play with my dogs, grow my own food" or just say "I have a job in a bank". Or, "I'm a writer but pay my bills by teaching/bookkeeping/whatever". Much more interesting that way.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Many say I'm so lucky to have this job which is rewarding and helps people; however, I doubt they'd ever trade and give up what they have. They'll keep the stress, home and salary.

from most massage therapists I have talked to it tends to burn out your body after a decade or so, and at that point you can't do it anymore, those who idealize other jobs in many cases simply haven't done the research. Finding a job one would actually in reality and not just in fantasy land like better is not easy and mostly a matter of random trying I figure.

[pony mom]

from most massage therapists I have talked to it tends to burn out your body after a decade or so, and at that point you can't do it anymore, those who idealize other jobs in many cases simply haven't done the research. Finding a job one would actually in reality and not just in fantasy land like better is not easy and mostly a matter of random trying I figure.

You're right about the burning out part. Six years into it and my shoulder is shot. Looking to get back into office work again, which I actually enjoy.

Kinda like that saying, "It's a nice place to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there".

[Mighty Frugal]

I agree with pony mom-you are not your job.
My best friend is the least status-seeking person I know. When people ask her what she does she tells them all she works in a door factory. She has told potential suitors this (when we were young and dating) and new friends, and anyone who asked her.

What she never mentioned was it was a family business and she owned 33% of it. But nope, worked in a door factory. And you know what? Nobody was ever 'bothered' by it. Nobody looked down on her or snubbed us. In fact, they seemed interested and asked questions.

It's all about attitude!;) Be proud!

[Spartana]

I've really never been impressed by fancy job titles, Ivy League educations, or salaries but find my self both impressed by (and often very jealous of) those people who seem to have less-status job titles: Police, firefighters, military, EMT's, rescue workers (especially volunteers), field research scientists, etc... Hard work and long hours in dangerous or rough conditions for low pay. THAT's what I admire and would prefer that kind of job over one considered higher status (by others) like corporate CEO anyday. But I agree with the others that "you are not your job" and do try to recognize the person's value as a whole irregardless of their job. So while I may not admire a corporate CEO or see the job as one of status (by my standards of status) I don't automaticly assume they are only that - a corporate CEO. They probably have other qualities money or job perks can't buy :-)!

[Zoe Girl]

I just have to be a devil's advocate, actually I have happily not cared about status and in many cases not that much about income either (above living wage ya know). Now I just want to walk into a room and command some respect and fear. Yeah, you heard it. Okay I would just like that a couple times mostly because the people I supervise seem to have issues. I finally got out of my naive mentality that everyone is just good and realized she is just challenging my authority, duh!

But then I have a day like today, and i don't want to be the person everyone is afraid of. I am fine being the person that a kid trusts and so I find out something that will actually maybe help them when all others see is how loud he can be. Or that my staff who keep trying to wrest control over the program is living in a new state away from her 18 yo daughter and her husband because no one has jobs, and maybe it would go better if I showed her what she was doing well. Or just that I had people come to my event tonight simply because they like me and the work I am doing. 10 pizzas and a lot of dessert later., not bad. Sure I have stress, and my feet HURT tonight, but I got paid and applauded for creating a 2 hour time for parents to simply come and play a board game with their children. I got to get paid to play.

[Tradd]

Zoegirl, I had to laugh at your "pay to play." That has QUITE a different meaning in IL politics, lol! :D

[SteveinMN]

Or just that I had people come to my event tonight simply because they like me and the work I am doing. 10 pizzas and a lot of dessert later., not bad. Sure I have stress, and my feet HURT tonight, but I got paid and applauded for creating a 2 hour time for parents to simply come and play a board game with their children. I got to get paid to play.
The motivator for DW to do overtime at work (get this, a government employee who actually works unpaid overtime!) is the families her organization supports. She puts in the hours because she can have a few quiet hours to find ways to help them live better -- ways to fund activities that benefit the special-needs kids, ways to let parents concentrate their efforts on caring for those kids (as opposed to worrying about $$$ or how the other kids are handling the situation). She likes being part of an organization big enough to have the resources to truly make a difference and yet decentralized enough to still know their clients. She almost considers it being paid to play -- but more like a jigsaw puzzle than jacks or checkers. :)