View Full Version : Hell has frozen over
It was hoping against hope I would ever see this:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-us-appeals-court-strikes-down-states-concealedcarry-ban-20121211,0,7034171.story
Full text of the ruling:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/537394/u-s-appellate-court-gun-law-decision.pdf
The state legislature has 180 days to come up with a "reasonable" CCW law.
I laughed when I read the below quote and had to wonder just what city *she* is living in!
House Majority Leader Barbara Flynn Currie [D-Chicago], a longtime gun control advocate, said “If we need to change the law, let us at least craft a law that is very severely constrained and narrowly tailored so that we don’t invite guns out of control on each of our city’s streets,” Currie said. “I don’t want people out of control wandering the streets with guns that are out of control.”
No, it's just the out of control criminal scum that's wandering the streets of Chicago with *illegal* guns that are out of control. Does she think the crooks (the non-political ones, that is) actually have a FOID card?
There are probably more legal battles to come, given the mindset of Cook County Dems (my part of the county has GOP state reps/senators) that try to run the entire state, but this was one heck of a first step.
From the court's decision:
Twenty-first century Illinois has no hostile Indians. But a Chicagoan is a good deal more likely to be attacked on a sidewalk in a rough neighborhood than in his apartment on the 35th floor of the Park Tower. A woman who is being stalked or has obtained a
protective order against a violent ex-husband is more vulnerable to being attacked while walking to or from her home than when inside. She has a stronger self-defense claim to be allowed to carry a gun in public than the resident of a fancy apartment building (complete with doorman) has a claim to sleep with a loaded gun under her mattress. But Illinois wants to deny the former claim, while compelled by McDonald to honor the latter. That creates an arbitrary difference. To confine the right to be armed to the home is to divorce the Second Amendment from the right of self-defense described in Heller and McDonald. It is not a property right—a right to kill a houseguest who in a fit of aesthetic fury tries to slash your copy of Norman Rockwell’s painting Santa with Elves. That is not self-defense, and this case like Heller and McDonald is just about self-defense. A gun is a potential danger to more people if carried in public than just kept in the home. But the other side of this coin is that knowing that many law-abiding citizens are walking the streets armed may make criminals timid.
This is Rockwell's Santa with Elves.
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jon_williamson/6250394384/
iris lily
12-12-12, 2:29am
Well Rockwell is too much treacle for me so shoot a hole through this illustration, I'm all for that. But I'm glad to hear that law gone.
Not looking forward to the inevitable gun debate that will follow. Not one new thing will be said but there will be much moaning and wringing of hands. Don't like concealed carry? Then don't do it.
I read the Barbara Flynn Currie quote a few times and still have no idea what the hell she was actually trying to say. It's gobledigook at its finest and me thinks it might be she that is out of control. Only in IL...
goldensmom
12-12-12, 6:53am
"....guns out of control......'. I'm happy to say that our guns are well-behaved guns. Every time I check the gun closet they are quietly resting in their spot on the gun rack, never go out of the house by themselves, never make a sound without my finger on the trigger, rarely ever hit anything because I am not a good aim and they cannot even aim at anything without my support and intent, etc., etc.. On their own, they just lay but at all times under my control.
I welcome the people of the State of Illinois to the United States.
First they overturn the Chicago foie gras ban, and now this.
"....guns out of control......'. I'm happy to say that our guns are well-behaved guns. Every time I check the gun closet they are quietly resting in their spot on the gun rack, never go out of the house by themselves, never make a sound without my finger on the trigger, rarely ever hit anything because I am not a good aim and they cannot even aim at anything without my support and intent, etc., etc.. On their own, they just lay but at all times under my control.
:laff::devil::laff:
Yes my guns are very well behaved too - even when they go out in public. They just quietly sit there never doing or saying a thing.
The Storyteller
12-13-12, 2:58pm
Yet more fallout from a very bad SCOTUS decision.
And I'm all for banning foie gras, too. Although I don't know why anyone would want to contribute to such a cruel practice in the first place.
Yet more fallout from a very bad SCOTUS decision.
In truth, it was a pretty decent decision, except that it didn't go far enough.
And I'm all for banning foie gras, too. Although I don't know why anyone would want to contribute to such a cruel practice in the first place.
It entirely depends on the manner in which the ducks are raised. Banning it across the board is silly.
ApatheticNoMore
12-13-12, 3:17pm
I am skeptical that my guns, if I had any, would be well behaved.
I am skeptical that my guns, if I had any, would be well behaved.
You have to keep an eye on them though, there's always a miscreant in the bunch. This weekend I repaired a wonderful old Winchester .22 target rifle, a US Army training rifle. Our club had received it through the Army's Department of Civilian Marksmanship probably before I was born. It has always been incredibly reliable and accurate, and great for instructing new shooters.
This week though, it developed the annoying habit of discharging on its own, without a finger on the trigger. Engaging the safety would cause it to discharge, as would touching the bolt handle slightly, or any slight bump, such as setting the rifle onto the sandbags...
A very small part had worn away, causing firing pin to be ready to let loose if you looked at the rifle sideways.
And this is why there are multiple layers to the safety rules. Since we always keep loaded guns pointed in a safe direction, even if it goes off on its own, nothing bad happens...
This is a quite rare failure, I have seen it happen only 2-3 times over 30ish years of weekly competitive shooting.
But still, be careful out there.
The Storyteller
12-13-12, 3:59pm
It entirely depends on the manner in which the ducks are raised. Banning it across the board is silly.
The practice itself is how they are raised. You run a tube down the bird's throat and force feed copious amounts of grain and fat, more than the bird could by itself ingest. That is what makes it foie gras. There is no way to do that humanely.
The practice itself is how they are raised. You run a tube down the bird's throat and force feed copious amounts of grain and fat, more than the bird could by itself ingest. That is what makes it foie gras. There is no way to do that humanely.
Yes, yes there is. I have seen the birds line up for it on small farms, and squabble over their place in line to get the good stuff...
I am skeptical that my guns, if I had any, would be well behaved.
Ha Ha - Yes occasionally - rarely - there is the bad boy or girl in the bunch but you can find them fast and, humanely, do away with them ;-) While I have never seen one go off all by it's lonesome, I have seen many jam (holidays for you old military types) and pitch a fit on occasion. Occasionally blow up in your face (happened to me in the service with a .50 cal machine gun - "Bad Boy! Bad!!") but then that was just an unruly teenager rebelling against it's mother's strict discipline and ungentle hand :-)! It like they say about dogs - "there are no bad dogs, only bad dog owners".
The Storyteller
12-13-12, 4:58pm
Yes, yes there is. I have seen the birds line up for it on small farms, and squabble over their place in line to get the good stuff...
Then it isn't foie gras, it is just goose or duck liver. Because there is no way a bird would voluntarily consume enough grain and fat to produce the bloated, fatty livers in foie gras.
Then it isn't foie gras, it is just goose or duck liver. Because there is no way a bird would voluntarily consume enough grain and fat to produce the bloated, fatty livers in foie gras.
I disagree. But that's just my lying eyes, and happy tummy.
Yes, yes there is. I have seen the birds line up for it on small farms, and squabble over their place in line to get the good stuff...
Apparently it IS possible to get them to overeat on their own, but it's not an easy task, at least if Act 3 of this This American Life episode is to be believed.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/452/poultry-slam-2011
Then it isn't foie gras, it is just goose or duck liver. Because there is no way a bird would voluntarily consume enough grain and fat to produce the bloated, fatty livers in foie gras.
I'm a huge fan of fois gras, but not a fan of gavage because I have not actually witnessed the process being performed in a way in which the animal didn't struggle to avoid it. I also question the ethics of practices involving creating legions on the hypothalamus of the birds to induce insatiable appetites. That said there are myriad producers out there trying to humanely and ethically raise 'fat birds'. That is, IMO, no different than feeding a turkey until it weighs 70 pounds or a steer that weighs 1400. The humane practices also usually involve butchering the birds around the time of fall migration because they apparently store fat in the liver naturally at that time. The French, thanks to their iron grip on the marketing of all things French, don't recognize the humane products as fois gras, but I've had several chances to sample it and thought it was wonderful.
The Storyteller
12-14-12, 11:50am
That is, IMO, no different than feeding a turkey until it weighs 70 pounds
Well, it is quite a bit different, actually, because there is no goose or duck that is predisposed to be sufficiently fat to be fois gras. The turkeys that can weigh 70 pounds plus come from only two breeds... Broad Breasted White and Broad Breasted Bronze, which are genetic freaks created by industrial agriculture. Normal turkeys (ie all the rest of what are called Heritage breeds) will never ever get anywhere near that size. Max for those birds are around 35 pounds for really big ones, and those are extremely rare. The advantage of the BBW and BBB birds is you can get them to the normally preferred weights of between 10 and 20 pounds in just a few months, as little as 3 months, with a less than 3 to 1 feed to meat ratio. That can save a lot of money. But I do agree that raising a turk to 75 pounds is also inhumane.
As to semantics, I'm with the French on this one. You can't get fois gras without the force feeding. But people can call it whatever they want, I suppose. Heck, you can put a thousand birds in a big building and give them a tiny door to a 10 by 10 yard on one end of the building and call them free range according to the USDA, so anything is possible. Perhaps we should focus on banning the process rather than the terminology.
Just ban the practice of gavage and you and bae can eat all the faux gras you want. ;)
The Storyteller
12-14-12, 2:11pm
Yes, the gun debate is dead, here on this board and elsewhere in the country. Meanwhile, yet another mass shooting, this time in an elementary school.
And on it goes...
Yes, the gun debate is dead, here on this board and elsewhere in the country. Meanwhile, yet another mass shooting, this time in an elementary school.
And on it goes...
Schools are gun free zones. People are not allowed to defend themselves there.
ApatheticNoMore
12-14-12, 2:21pm
Is the murder rate up or down? Because the plural of anecdotes is not statistics. Now even given that I can understand how one might disagree with whatever methods may be currently being used in this country to lower the murder rate (we have mass incarceration in this country, truly mass, if everyone's in jail noone could commit murder even if they wanted to! Just lock everyone up and the crime rate will be zero! But of course many of those actually incarcerated are non-violent), but I'm just saying one thing one might actually want to take into account is the actual data on crime and especially murder rates, of course one could if they wanted to, I suppose, attribute this mostly to demographics as it is an aging population. So what's the breakdown murder rate per capita by age? I don't know.
Thing is you have an economy that may never recover, with very little hope to be found anywhere, economically things getting worse and worse for most people, costs of basics up, employment and wages down, more and more people qualifying for poverty programs, more and more old people expecting to eat cat food, the whole fricken planet is on it's way down, and it's frankly surprising that more people aren't losing it entirely.
Yes, the gun debate is dead, here on this board and elsewhere in the country. Meanwhile, yet another mass shooting, this time in an elementary school.
And on it goes...
I don't think the gun debate is over - here or elsewhere. Just on hiatus. Many states, and probably the feds, are working on changing current gun control laws or enacting new ones. At least here in Calif. it's still a hot topic. But fiscal cliff - and the resultent ends of life on earth as we know it - has taken front and center for the time being. I believe that will change with this new tradgedy. But we've had many gun control debates on this forum - some very recently - and basicly nothing new is said by either camp. At least nothing that makes any difference to how each feels on the subject.
The Storyteller
12-15-12, 12:54pm
Spartana, I don't think anything is ever said in this subforum that changes anybody's mind about anything.
Spartana, I don't think anything is ever said in this subforum that changes anybody's mind about anything.
Never say never. I remember a time when one of our more liberal members single-handedly converted another member from a Democrat to a Republican.
The Storyteller
12-15-12, 1:37pm
He wasn't a Democrat. He was an independent. And it was fellow fundamentalist Sarah Palen who changed his vote, not anything said on a web forum.
He wasn't a Democrat. He was an independent. And it was fellow fundamentalist Sarah Palen who changed his vote, not anything said on a web forum.
Oh really? He explained it differently.
gimmethesimplelife
12-15-12, 2:10pm
Never say never. I remember a time when one of our more liberal members single-handedly converted another member from a Democrat to a Republican.Loosechickens? I think I remember that. Rob
iris lily
12-15-12, 4:05pm
Loosechickens? I think I remember that. Rob
hmm, are you guys talking about ketchup as the converted? As far a shrill convertors, well, it's tough to pick amongst them.
Well that's a relief. I thought it might have been me.
The Storyteller
12-15-12, 9:48pm
It was kiv, and I was the shrill converter. But come on... he was gung ho Obama, McCain adds Palen to the ticket and he flips, supposedly because I was so mean to someone everybody now pretty much admits was a terrible choice.
I didn't buy it then, and I.don't buy it now.
It was kiv, and I was the shrill converter.
Really (again)?
I recall Ketchup crediting Loosechickens as his influence. Maybe it wasn't as single-handed as I thought.
goldensmom
12-15-12, 11:11pm
Schools are gun free zones. People are not allowed to defend themselves there.
State House, Senate pass bill allowing guns to be carried in more places
http://www.freep.com/article/20121214/NEWS15/312140129
State House, Senate pass bill allowing guns to be carried in more places
http://www.freep.com/article/20121214/NEWS15/312140129
Well done Michigan!
The Storyteller
12-15-12, 11:56pm
Really (again)?
I recall Ketchup crediting Loosechickens as his influence. Maybe it wasn't as single-handed as I thought.
You and LC have always had a thing for each other, so you may attribute it to her if you wish.
The Storyteller
12-16-12, 12:00am
Well done Michigan!
I've been wondering about something, Alan. With all these mass shootings over the past couple of years, how come none of you gun toting cowboys are ever around to save the day? Seems to me if the argument that more guns and more people carrying them makes us safer, at some point somebody would have been able to stop one of these things from happening. I don't recall a single one.
JaneV2.0
12-16-12, 12:29am
The thing with firearms, as many have pointed out, is that they make it entirely too easy for creeps like George Zimmerman, Michael Dunn, and our local Dinh Bowman to snuff out the lives of total strangers who have merely annoyed them in some way.
The Storyteller
12-16-12, 12:38am
Also, altercations that would otherwise have fizzled are pushed farther because someone is braver because they have a piece tucked away.
I've been wondering about something, Alan. With all these mass shootings over the past couple of years, how come none of you gun toting cowboys are ever around to save the day? Seems to me if the argument that more guns and more people carrying them makes us safer, at some point somebody would have been able to stop one of these things from happening. I don't recall a single one.
Because of restrictions on where carrying is allowed. No guns on campus. The Aurora theater was posted for no guns allowed. In the Gabbie Gifford shooting, I've read that several legally permitted people who were carrying didn't fire because they would have hit the innocent, the situation was so chaotic.
I guess with you folks - damned if you do and damned if you don't.
With all these mass shootings over the past couple of years, how come none of you gun toting cowboys are ever around to save the day?
There have been several of course. By your use of the lovely phrase "gun toting cowboys" however, I see that you aren't interested in an actual discussion, cheers.
I've been wondering about something, Alan. With all these mass shootings over the past couple of years, how come none of you gun toting cowboys are ever around to save the day? Seems to me if the argument that more guns and more people carrying them makes us safer, at some point somebody would have been able to stop one of these things from happening. I don't recall a single one.
Tradd has it right. These things almost exclusively take place in venue's where the presence of "gun toting cowboys" has been criminalized.
In this latest case, both the school principal and the school psychologist were reportedly killed while rushing the shooter, using the only tools at their disposal (themselves) to stop him. Perhaps if one or more of them had better tools the results would be different.
You and LC have always had a thing for each other, so you may attribute it to her if you wish.
That's OK, you can have the credit if you wish. During that period my login was often unreliable, making it difficult for me to follow the back and forth.
iris lily
12-16-12, 1:38pm
... During that period my login was often unreliable, making it difficult for me to follow the back and forth.
LOL big time! I think we all know why that login didn't always work for you.
As I think about it, the title of this thread is appropriate for how this site now works, I never thought it would happen.
In the Gabbie Gifford shooting, I've read that several legally permitted people who were carrying didn't fire because they would have hit the innocent, the situation was so chaotic.
This is one of the problems I see with everyone carrying a gun so that they can thwart a crazy gunman. First, with a bunch of people whipping out their guns the death toll is likely to be equally high if not higher. Second, if I, as a concerned gun carrying citizen, pull out my gun to stop the shooter, how is another concerned gun carrying citizen going to be able to tell if I'm one of the "good guys" or just a partner of the crazy guy? It's not as though people will be able to stop and have a conversation to ascertain one another's motives in that situation.
puglogic
12-17-12, 11:41pm
Oh jp, you must stop being so darned logical. It's not patriotic.
Greetings from the land of gun-toting cowboys - where people still get killed, by others who've been carefully indoctrinated to think of guns as the solution for everything bad that's ever happened to them, real or imagined. Somebody else want your car or your flat screen TV? Get a gun. Somebody get mad at you for nearly causing them to get into a traffic accident? Get a gun. You feel that guy doesn't belong in your neighborhood? Good thing you have a gun. Another country not protecting our country's vested interests? Nothing a few guns won't solve. And in your free time, let's market hundreds of video games that glorify the pure sexual gratification of using bigger and badder guns.
I just can't imagine where these shooters come from.
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