View Full Version : Gone With The Wind?
gimmethesimplelife
12-21-12, 11:35pm
I just logged off of yahoo.com news where I learned of yet another shooting, this one in Rural Pennsylvania, with three or four dead, I seem to be reading confliciting reports. Wow. I don't care to start up a thread on gun laws or gun control or gun anything, we have threads addressing these issues still live.
My question is this - does anyone else here feel like the America they once knew is going going going Gone With The Wind? This strikes me as a good way to put it as I remember reading the book, which gets into a great deal more detail of the changes that took place in everyday life as the Confederacy crumbled. I see some crumbling going on in American society - in the areas of perceived personal safety, standards of living, economic opportunity, et al. Does anyone else feel this - that America is somehow slipping away, going going going Gone With The Wind? Rob
Wildflower
12-22-12, 4:39am
America is changing, life is ever changing - I think it's always been that way...
Some things are better now, some things seems to be worse, or are they worse because of how much more we know about due to the media and internet? When my Dad was still alive he always used to say that bad things have always been happening, you just hear about it more now.... I tend to agree.
Wildflower: I agree. I think a big part of it is the 24 hour news cycle.
These sorts of things are distressing to have in our country, but involve a very small percentage of our population and get a huge amount of media attention. If I were to question whether America was on a slippery slide down, I would look more at materialism and greed, a disregard for the environment, and a faltering education system.
I was just saying to my SO the other night, Rob, that I wished things were like when we were kids. That we didn't have to worry about such things, could stay out and play until dark or after without fear. We walked to school by ourselves and our parents didn't worry about us continually. People seemed nicer to each other, and if there was a bully at school, you just ignored them or they got their just due eventually.
I guess therein lies why things seem so hopeless. Those days are long gone and there's no bringing them back. It's dog-eat-dog. I feel that way, and I don't even watch news except for a half hour in the morning. Even though it's easy to point at the 24-hour news cycle, I think it's much more than that, many more things added together.
I agree with you Kay. And it makes my heart ache. :(
Yossarian
12-22-12, 11:29am
I wished things were like when we were kids.
Yep the good old days when you could beat up the fags, negros and women knew their place, didn't have to worry aboutbthe Hymies in your club, the priests took care of their own, and violent crime was twice as high as it is today.
US crime rate at lowest point in decades (2012)
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0109/US-crime-rate-at-lowest-point-in-decades.-Why-America-is-safer-now
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Violent_crime_rates_by_gender_1973-2003.jpg
Right, Yossarian. That's exactly what I meant. sheesh. Glad all THAT's gone by the wayside.
gimmethesimplelife
12-22-12, 11:41am
Yep the good old days when you could beat up the fags, negros and women knew their place, didn't have to worry aboutbthe Hymies in your club, the priests took care of their own, and violent crime was twice as high as it is today.
US crime rate at lowest point in decades (2012)
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0109/US-crime-rate-at-lowest-point-in-decades.-Why-America-is-safer-now
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Violent_crime_rates_by_gender_1973-2003.jpgYossarian - These graphs may very well be true. The problem is the perception of safety has taken a big nosedive and people are acting, behaving, and responding accordingly in society. I don't know that there is any reclaiming the resulting quality of life reductions.
Also these statistics do not take into account another aspect of my original post - that of economic decline/crumbling and societal response/change to this. Rob
Yossarian
12-22-12, 12:00pm
Yossarian - These graphs may very well be true. The problem is the perception of safety has taken a big nosedive and people are acting, behaving, and responding accordingly in society. I don't know that there is any reclaiming the resulting quality of life reductions.
Also these statistics do not take into account another aspect of my original post - that of economic decline/crumbling and societal response/change to this. Rob
I can remember the 70s economy. No thanks. This again goes to how you react to tne news cycle, not reality.
I can't reproduce these charts directly, but see for yourself:
Violent crime cut in half, fewer people living in fear than when many of us were kids:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/144272/nearly-americans-fear-walking-alone-night.aspx
gimmethesimplelife
12-22-12, 12:06pm
I can remember the 70s economy. No thanks. This again goes to how you react to tne news cycle, not reality.
I can't reproduce these charts directly, but see for yourself:
Violent crime cut in half, fewer people living in fear than when many of us were kids:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/144272/nearly-americans-fear-walking-alone-night.aspxI'll take the economy in the seventies over this one ANY day.....health care was not the nightmare that it is today and more people still had this wonderful thing called a pension in those days. American workers were not competing directly with third world workers as we are today, and for those unhappy, it was much easier to immigrate out to somewhere like Australia - back in the seventies they would even pay your one way ticket over. Yep, I'll take the time travel machine (if one existed) and all those who prefer today are welcome to stay. Rob
iris lily
12-22-12, 12:12pm
I would be happy in the 70's, but I'm happy in the 2010's.
I went out to get my first real job in 1979 when unemployment was 10%. I was interested in buying a house within a few years and looked at ones with assumable mortgages at 16% interest rate. 16%! Young people now can't grok that kind of interest rate but we didn't know any better.
When it comes right down to it, most people will not exchange their place in time or space so I don't think you would have many takers. That's my theory and I'm stickin' to it.
Yossarian
12-22-12, 12:19pm
If global poverty and environmental degredation are your goals than the 70s is the decade for you.
Many of the pensions you envy were simply unsustainable and went belly up, but I do think there should be an option for cheap healthcare- you acn pay 70s rates as long as you only get 70s era treatments.
pinkytoe
12-22-12, 12:35pm
I like and dislike things about both eras. There are many more freedoms now - geez, girls weren't allowed to wear pants until I was a sophomore in high school (1970). In 1991, when my brother died of AIDS, we were treated as pariahs and found little help. That wouldn't be the case now - just 20 years later. Perhaps people appeared more civil then because we weren't so mobile and technologically connected. Our circle of participation was much smaller. I think like others that media and advertising have gotten out of hand though. Yes, we can choose not to participate but think about all the kids whose parents don't really care what they are exposed to. We have to recognize that humans have a dark and violent side and that effort must be made to not feed it. I think the primary difference I see now is disparity of income and that does bother me a lot.
ApatheticNoMore
12-22-12, 2:21pm
No, we walked to school as kids, I'll bet violent crime was actually much higher then (actual rates are at their lowest in decades last I heard, unless there's been a sudden uptick). If I had kids I'd likely let them walk to school now. Not that I wouldn't worry, I'd likely worry like heck, and NOT act on it, because I wouldn't want to raise a terrified kid, so I'd put that principle over my worries. If the problem is not the media then how do you explain violent crime going down and fear going up, I mean if you were able to at least show something like more priviledged suburbanites are being targetted it would be something. Because frankly as it is I have concluded the problem IS the media, plain and simple, and people getting decieved by it. Making people more scared when they are actually safer. I pretty much never watch news, it's all the written word. I seldom watch movies. I seldom watch t.v..
As for the economy, I think I'm the wrong generation to have lived when things were all hunky dory because I never remember things having been that way. Though I will concede it is probably a lot harder for young people starting out in the world now. But it was never that easy. I'm not sure I even buy into the myth of whatever America you are trying to say once existed, I don't know that I ever believed in it (they never woke up, from the American dream ...). Though even what I did believe of it, meets with harsh disillusionment.
I do think things are harder in general economically, still though if you are going to idealize the past you might want to ask women who worked back in the day at the level of discrimination they encountered just for being female (especially if they didnt' stick to purely pink fields). But I still unequivocably believe economic conditions are generally worse, it's just that many things in society weren't that great then either.
I do think two things have gotten worse to shocking degrees: 1) the political situation, the whole political process is more openly corrupt, viscious, dishonest, deceptive, and openly malevolent than ever 2) the media (in terms of the level of propaganda, it terms of the bleeding leading, in terms of shoddiness, and this is not exactly like the others which are mostly about the news divisions but in terms of the sheer sensory assault and in terms of advertising. On the last point there seem to be way more ads on t.v. than there were in the old days. And the sensory assault level of the ads just seems so much greater. Or I'm just getting old, but really it sure seems so to me.
Ok where were we, if I had kids I'd let them walk to school alone everyday and ban t.v. .... or something ...
Too much information keeps being circulated every minute by the ever sensationalist media and increasing the impact so I would choose 2012 as well.
Yeah I don't think everything is either worse or better. I keep in way better contact with friends and family due to technology-remember long distance rates? But health care costs would scare the crap out of me if I had kids these days. I do think the news is more fear mongering and sensationalist than it used to be. Reporting is also more poorly researched and rushed than before probably due in part to the 24 hr cycle. In the 70s, people died a lot more often from car crashes, airplane crashes, fires, drowning. There was way more drunk driving and people feared major nuclear war at any time vs being shot by a random gunman at any time. So maybe there is always fear but it gets directed at whatever the circumstances dictate?:
Yeah I don't think everything is either worse or better. I keep in way better contact with friends and family due to technology-remember long distance rates? ...:
Boy howdy--I was spending thousands a year in long distance charges in early nineties.
Of course old ways are disappearing--that's how life works. If we're smart, we'll carry on with what was good about the "good old days" (like not-for-profit medical care and solid pension plans) and adopt the best of the new.
Many years ago an article I read posited that our crime rate would plummet if we just incarcerated adolescent males until they matured--obviously a pipe dream. But maybe we could keep a closer eye on disturbed, medicated males who seem preoccupied with violence and couldn't get laid if their lives depended on it.
Well there ya go. If we simply applied the same reasoning to this situation as we do to mass shootings we could proclaim that if women were more generous with their affections, these males wouldn't be so preoccupied with violence. ;)
Well there ya go. If we simply applied the same reasoning to this situation as we do to mass shootings we could proclaim that if women were more generous with their affections, these males wouldn't be so preoccupied with violence. ;)
It works for bonobos...
(And how did I get this post in that thread? Or that post in this thread? And I'm perfectly sober. Really. I give up.)
iris lily
12-22-12, 8:08pm
It works for bonobos...
(And how did I get this post in that thread? Or that post in this thread? And I'm perfectly sober. Really. I give up.)
So who is going to put up their daughters to perform this service for the community? Because it really IS all about the community, not the individual. So what if the girls get the skeevies around these young men, it's all for the cause, what they want doesn't count.
So who is going to put up their daughters to perform this service for the community? Because it really IS all about the community, not the individual. So what if the girls get the skeevies around these young men, it's all for the cause, what they want doesn't count.
I'm sure this will end up in the tofu fondue thread. I was thinking we could deploy sex workers. And pay them handsomely. It would be worth it to keep the carnage down, but the potential perps would probably just fixate on those young women and make their lives hell instead. Obviously the plan needs some fine tuning..
Woodhaven
12-24-12, 10:18am
Yes, turn off the Culture of Fear promoting news. Perception is often not reality.
The Storyteller
12-24-12, 12:03pm
Gimme, I think socially we are far beyond where we were in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. Race is less an issue today than it has ever been, gender equality is much closer to the eventual goal, people's sexual preference is becoming increasingly irrelevant, and the environment has made great strides.
I just scored a bound set of TIME magazines from the early 1930s to the 1990s. I'm slowly working my way through, and it is a fascinating read. It is a cliche' to say it, but I'm finding the good old days really weren't all that good.
The Storyteller
12-24-12, 4:05pm
So who is going to put up their daughters to perform this service for the community?
I understand there are former Olympic athletes out there looking for excitement.
shadowmoss
12-26-12, 11:17am
I remember watching the news in the '60's. Viet Nam, a President, his brother, and Dr. Martin Luther King killed. The Summer Of Love with violent marches and lootings. I cleaned tables at a fast food restaurant while watching the Nixon hearings. I paid 13% for my first mortgage in '84. This is the worst recession 'in decades' because they take decades to come around again. I'm sure folks from the real depression thought we were wimps for complaining in the 70's and 80's.
Violent crime is actually WAY down thanks to abortion.
Read your Freakonomics, people!
I think it's Chapter 4.
iris lily
12-26-12, 11:52am
Violent crime is actually WAY down thanks to abortion.
Read your Freakonomics, people!
I think it's Chapter 4.
That's just a theory, you know. And interesting one but one that is hardly conclusive.
Leon C. Megginson, Professor of Management and Marketing at Louisiana State University at Baton Rouge, wrote in 1963: "According to Darwin’s Origin of Species, it is not the most intellectual of the species that survives; it is not the strongest that survives; but the species that survives is the one that is able best to adapt and adjust to the changing environment in which it finds itself."
I suggest little has changed since then. Lead, follow or get out of the way.
ApatheticNoMore
12-26-12, 4:33pm
That's just a theory, you know. And interesting one but one that is hardly conclusive.
Yea, I'd be happy to know the massive prison population has nothing to do with it, but I'm not so sure. It seems noone is really sure why violence is down, and not just in the U.S.. Pop sociology bestselling book theories aren't peer reviewed consensus, even in social science, such as it is.
I suggest little has changed since then. Lead, follow or get out of the way.
I saw this quote ("lead, follow, or get out of the way") on a car bumper and thought: authoritarians ... sigh .... Because it seemed to me a profoundly authoritarian quote. like the essence of it (haha, that is the polite term, one could say fascist, but that doesn't usually add anything).
I saw this quote ("lead, follow, or get out of the way") on a car bumper and thought: authoritarians ... sigh .... Because it seemed to me a profoundly authoritarian quote. like the essence of it (haha, that is the polite term, one could say fascist, but that doesn't usually add anything).
I think its usually more of a statement of how things are than a directive. Three simple choices. Note that "turn the clock back" isn't one of the options, on a bumber sticker or in real life.
...
I saw this quote ("lead, follow, or get out of the way") on a car bumper and thought: authoritarians ... sigh .... Because it seemed to me a profoundly authoritarian quote. like the essence of it (haha, that is the polite term, one could say fascist, but that doesn't usually add anything).
It has always struck me as typically top-down authoritarian, as well. Maybe if the third option read "or go your own way" it wouldn't annoy me so much.
JaneV2.0
12-26-12, 11:09pm
In line with the observation that the healthiest way to deal with inevitable change is to adapt is this article suggesting that meeting life's challenges leads to evolutionary change:
http://www.livescience.com/25793-changing-environment-human-evolution.html
meeting life's challenges
In my mind that is the absolute definition of adaptation.
Sorry about the lead, follow... line guys. It was tongue in cheek. Had I known it would distract from the real conversation I never would have put it in. My bad. As far as the 70's go that is when I came of age and all the tea in China would not get me to go back to what the world was like then. The political climate, the cold war/arms race, the economy, (a lot of) the music, the oil embargo, the clothes, the Vietnam war, the general feeling of despair... IMO it was a pretty crappy decade.
Wildflower
12-27-12, 4:08am
In my mind that is the absolute definition of adaptation.
Sorry about the lead, follow... line guys. It was tongue in cheek. Had I known it would distract from the real conversation I never would have put it in. My bad. As far as the 70's go that is when I came of age and all the tea in China would not get me to go back to what the world was like then. The political climate, the cold war/arms race, the economy, (a lot of) the music, the oil embargo, the clothes, the Vietnam war, the general feeling of despair... IMO it was a pretty crappy decade.
I remember in 1974 they turned off the heat at my high school. We had to wear our winter coats, hats, scarves, and mittens all day long for a couple of the coldest months. I remember not alot of money for anything, but people were very frugal in those days - at least in the midwest. I remember sitting in line for hours to get gasoline because of nationwide gas shortages. Most of all I remember the mood, it was a very depressing and somber time in my memory... They kept trying to liven things up with that awful disco music in the later 70's - I agree that music was awful, but some of the greatest music of all times came from the 70's in my opinion.
It is definitely not a time I would want to go back to either. What I remember most was losing classmates in the Vietnam war. So many times the halls of my high school were absolutely silent because we were all mourning the loss of yet another previous classmate to that awful war....
In my mind that is the absolute definition of adaptation.
Sorry about the lead, follow... line guys. It was tongue in cheek. Had I known it would distract from the real conversation I never would have put it in. My bad. As far as the 70's go that is when I came of age and all the tea in China would not get me to go back to what the world was like then. The political climate, the cold war/arms race, the economy, (a lot of) the music, the oil embargo, the clothes, the Vietnam war, the general feeling of despair... IMO it was a pretty crappy decade.
I loved the seventies--every bit of it. I got a good job, bought my first place, danced all night under the disco ball...Different lenses, I guess.
In my mind that is the absolute definition of adaptation.
Sorry about the lead, follow... line guys. It was tongue in cheek. Had I known it would distract from the real conversation I never would have put it in. My bad. As far as the 70's go that is when I came of age and all the tea in China would not get me to go back to what the world was like then. The political climate, the cold war/arms race, the economy, (a lot of) the music, the oil embargo, the clothes, the Vietnam war, the general feeling of despair... IMO it was a pretty crappy decade. And all those nighly news broadcasts with the photos of dead troops in the Vietnam war. Total number US troops killed during both Afgan and Iraq wars combined: a bit over 6,000. Total number killed in Vietnam: a bit under 60,000.
I was not a fan of the 1970's or 1980's myself - being 17-18 in 1975. Remember the whole on-going civil rights and equal rights battles. The war and how we treated returning Vets (baby-killers!). The gas rationing. The high unemployment - higher then during this Great Recession. High inflation. High mortgage rates. Etc... Was very glad that I was able to enter the Coast Guard then as it had just opened up to women (besides reservists) for the first time and gave me a lot of job opportunities (and for equal pay!!) and non-traditional experiences I would never had been able to get in the civilian job market as a woman at that time in history. Nope - don't wanna ever go back to the good ole' days cause while Opie could safely ride his bike around Mayberry (or could he?), a black man or gay man or white woman could still be denied access to even the most ordinary of things in life like education, housing, jobs, etc..
Oh yea, remember Walter Cronkite every night with a US flag on one side and a Chinese flag on the other and the number of dead on both sides under the flags? If those figures were to be believed the opposition lost a couple million to our 55,000+/-. Regardless of the numbers the loss of any life in that war was a waste (IMO).
We should also remember all the fun and games that were going on in South America in the 70's. Some of that could provide a little insight into where North America is heading if we don't get our act together.
and lets not forget the draft for you guys. My older brother always waited anxiously to see when/if his number would come up. I can't imagine anything worse then being forced to fight a foreign war for what seemed like no apparent reason (to confront the demon communists). One that many people were against and didn't have much of a chance returning from. Let alone having to spend years in the kind of hardships a jungle war would mean.
Wow--I guess I was a real Marie Antoinette. I have to admit I didn't meet a Viet Nam vet until I worked with a couple. Everyone I knew had a college deferment except a boyfriend who stayed up for a week on a diet of amphetamines and coffee so he could flunk the physical. Which could have been an apocryphal story, since everything else that came out of his mouth was. I do remember gas lines, and I was driving a car that got eight miles to the gallon at the time. But my peace-marching days were well behind me by then--at least until ten years ago or so when 10,000 of my closest friends demonstrated in downtown Seattle. I really did enjoy the seventies, with no apologies.
Lol...its hard to see bad things when the flash of a disco ball is in your eyes! I'm just happy to know SOMEONE had fun in the 70's!
Wow--I guess I was a real Marie Antoinette. .
Well that is what happens when you spin and spin and dance the night away under a disco ball wearing skin tight lycra dresses that shine!! Or was that the 80's? No late 70's I guess. And those sky high platform shoes will cause your brain to be depleted of oxygen :-)!
I think, like anything in life, it's all a matter of what impacts you directly. A lot of the "bad" stuff like the gas embargo and rationing happened when I was too young to drive (or just starting out) but it impacted my single parent low income Mom - just like the job market (and the discrimination in both available jobs and equal pay), inflation (rampant inflation) and high interest rates did. Not that my Mom, as a divorced woman, could get credit at all since women were only allowed to get it with a man's blessing or income. All that coupled with knowing that her son could be drafted once he hit 18 didn't make the 70's to great for a divorced single parent low income woman..= So the 70's were not an idyllic time for us as a family and I imagine that the 60's with all the civil rights issues were terrible for anyone who was a minority race or for women. No, I can't really think of a time in history that would be better then our current time. Some things WERE better, but most were much worse IMHO.
I did keep protesting the war by voting for our two dovish Republican senators, sending letters to representatives, etc. It's not that I was totally self-involved.
But it is about how an era affects us personally. I was such an anomaly when I got my condo loan that (I'm not making this up), my loan officer introduced me around the whole office like I was a talking two-headed calf. Women were just beginning to get decent jobs and rights men had taken for granted for generations. So knowing that I was getting my very own place with my very own money and could still dance in three-inch platforms was pretty sweet.
I did keep protesting the war by voting for our two dovish Republican senators, sending letters to representatives, etc. It's not that I was totally self-involved.
But it is about how an era affects us personally. I was such an anomaly when I got my condo loan that (I'm not making this up), my loan officer introduced me around the whole office like I was a talking two-headed calf. Women were just beginning to get decent jobs and rights men had taken for granted for generations. So knowing that I was getting my very own place with my very own money and could still dance in three-inch platforms was pretty sweet.
You go girl!:cool:
(what I need here is a disco dancing icon)
JaneV2.0
12-28-12, 12:59pm
And speaking of Gone With the Wind, Scarlett O'Hara is the very poster girl for adapting and thriving.
Wildflower: I agree. I think a big part of it is the 24 hour news cycle.
I concur. The business of 24 hour news changes entirely how we view news in our country.
gimmethesimplelife
1-15-13, 2:19am
I concur. The business of 24 hour news changes entirely how we view news in our country.It also pretty much makes newpapers obsolete, which I find kind of depressing in a way as I love to take the time out and actually read a well written newspaper. OTOH, yeah, that newspaper is not so great environmentally, I am aware of that.....Rob
Shadowmoss: I watched the PBS program on the dustbowl and depression a few months ago, those people had it so ruff, the worn faces and bodies. The little children with no shoes and rags for clothes. I wondered what they thought of the last many years. I never heard any interviews during the Recession from those that live the Depession.
PS I remember the mortgages in the mid to high teens in the 80s. It was jsut what we had to take to get that small slice of the American Dream.
Shadowmoss: I watched the PBS program on the dustbowl and depression a few months ago, those people had it so ruff, the worn faces and bodies. The little children with no shoes and rags for clothes. I wondered what they thought of the last many years. I never heard any interviews during the Recession from those that live the Depession.
My grandparents on one side both came from NW Oklahoma. They were married in 1932, started having babies and bought a farm just before the dust started flying. They both just kind of smiled whenever anyone mentioned how tough it was to make it today. Knowing what I do about their lives at that time makes me feel pretty spoiled even on my worst days.
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