Small Town Silent Treatment

[mamalatte]

Deleted.

[JaneV2.0]

I bet it's common as dirt. I was born into a tiny town on the Oregon coast where that kind of thing occurred. My (very occasional) baby sitter was a social pariah for some reason, so my parents delighted in hiring her. Shunning is a very effective social tool, and I don't have a problem with it under some circumstances, but I don't like small towns for that reason--everyone else is knee-deep in your business--among others. Shriveled little minds seem to thrive in the moist soil of the small town hothouse atmosphere.

[awakenedsoul]

Oh, that's too bad. It sounds very uncomfortable. I actually have a couple of families that I avoid in my neighborhood. We just totally clash, and I don't want to be friends with them. (It's a long story. I took them to court for harassment, violating a noise ordinance, nuisance, and threatening an animal.) They try to force me to "say hello" to them, and I have nothing to do with them. I also don't speak to the drug dealers in this area.
I am friendly with the other neighbors, though. Ten years ago I worked for a woman that would give me the cold shoulder. If I greeted her she wouldn't answer. She was very stormy and moody. It set a terrible example for the children. Her husband would do the same thing. I live in a small town, too. I confronted her about it. I eventually left the job because it was such a toxic environment.

When I avoid the first family I mentioned, it's not in a hostile way. I just don't want to be around them. They have no boundaries.

[SteveinMN]

Tough spot to be in, mamalatte. That is one of the problems of being in a small population -- typically diversity is not looked upon kindly. Not that your neighbors are bigots or anything. It's just that you start out as an "outsider" for having moved into the community and may further stick out if you don't follow the norms of the "tribe".

Living within city limits, we see far less of this than you are seeing. DW moved up to the Twin Cities from a small city about an hour south of here when her marriage ended. Her daughter is biracial and DW did not want to expose DD to the xenophobia and "difference" she would have encountered. So they moved up here and DD was just another kid in school here. I've mentioned in other posts that I moved to Minneapolis/St. Paul as an adult and found it harder to make friends here than elsewhere. But that ice has been broken over time. The larger population of people with diverse views and interests helps.

It's sad that you could not have seen this coming -- and that few people are being straight enough with you or mature enough to deal with the situation. I don't think there's anything else you can do but be your own selves. Be gracious and follow your social and political beliefs without clubbing people over the head with your views. Maybe people will come around when they see the real "you". Maybe they won't. You'll have to decide if your comfort level is worth moving again.

[mamalatte]

Deleted.

[creaker]

I think as a culture, politeness and civility and etiquette have definitely dropped a few notches over the past generation.

Now, the Star-Bell Sneetches had bellies with stars.
The Plain-Belly Sneetches had none upon thars.
Those stars weren’t so big. They were really so small.
You might think such a thing wouldn’t matter at all.

But, because they had stars, all the Star-Belly Sneetches
Would brag, “We’re the best kind of Sneetch on the beaches.”
With their snoots in the air, they would sniff and they’d snort
“We’ll have nothing to do with the Plain-Belly sort!”
And, whenever they met some, when they were out walking,
They’d hike right on past them without even talking.

When the Star-Belly children went out to play ball,
Could a Plain Belly get in the game? Not at all.
You only could play if your bellies had stars
And the Plain-Belly children had none upon thars.

When the Star Belly Sneetches had frankfurter roasts
Or picnics or parties or marshmallow toasts,
They never invited the Plain-Belly Sneetches
They left them out cold, in the dark of the beaches.
They kept them away. Never let them come near.
And that’s how they treated them year after year.

[mamalatte]

That is EXACTLY on point, creaker. LOL!

[Zoe Girl]

It seems that we think we have handled more of this because the shunning is not about race or religion as often. Now few people would say that someone was not welcome because they were Jewish or dark skinned. But the basic human trait to keep other people out of the group has not changed.

[HappyHiker]

Yes, I've seen this happen in my small town, too...it's unkind and uncivil--and it hurts. Don't have any answers. Friendships and relationships change and morph, ebb and flow, but shunning is cruel and I don't understand it...

There's a John Prine song worth listening to..part of the lyrics "Some humans ain't human, some people ain't kind...you open up their hearts and what do you find? A few frozen pizzas..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB2E6RX7W44

[bae]

This sort of thing happens in my village/island/county as well. It's sort of handy actually, as it lets you know who is reasonable, and who is not.

The recent election cycle here appears to have brought out the worst in people in my community. I participated in the Republican caucus and primary process in my precinct/county/state, as an educational exercise for myself and to advocate for the more socially-liberal, financially conservative minority. Once my name was published as a delegate to the state convention, I've been outted as "an evil Republican", and people who were decent and kind to me for more than a dozen years here now have begun treating me like The Enemy.

Apparently you are either with them, or against them.

Sad really.

[Mrs-M]

Originally posted by Bae.
It's sort of handy actuallyMy sentiment exactly.

[Float On]

I'm sorry this has happed. It's probably really spoiled your enjoyment of your new home. All I can say is hope and pray the next 'outsider' comes along quickly so they'll have someone else to shun. You'll probably notice over time that this is what happens. They just need someone to hate, so, bam....it's your turn.

[Simplemind]

Awkward for sure. You are the outsider who upset the apple cart. I agree with BAE. Good to know this about these people because imagine being friends with them, seeing them do this to somebody else and expecting you to go along with it. Yikes!

[Zoebird]

My only similar experience was high school -- an all girls high school where most of the teachers had attended the high school and so had most of hte mothers/aunts/grandmothers/etc attended the high school. Social structure was very strict.

So, there are two ways to approach. First, simply be the outsider. Focus on those with whom you get along, and act as if those who treat you this way do not exist. THis is the *fastest* way to take away their power. THey assume that you want and need to be friends with them, and by withholding that, they are in power. As soon as you begin to behave as if NONE of those people even exist in your town -- and by that I mean, they DO NOT EXIST -- then guess what? Your daughter's soccer team doesn't have a coach. The girls manage on their own. The kids taught themselves the day that the sub was there. You might even assert that your daughter needn't accord them anything but the most basic of civil politeness depending upon her age.

Then, you take the people whom you like. All of those people. And you start to form a highly social, fun, and exciting group. Doing all kinds of community works. Doing parties and such. Completely ignore the others.

Watch how the balance of power shifts. It's amazing.

It worked in high school, it should work here.

Second, you could opt for chaos. If you want more information on how this works, I can tell you. But, it gets out of your control quickly, and could destroy everything. And by that, I do mean it can create real chaos.

[mamalatte]

Deleted.

[lhamo]

"Haters gonna hate" is one of my new favorite phrases. Some people are just going to act the way they want to act, for whatever their silly petty reasons. While it is surely difficult to deal with, there's no need to get sucked up too much into their drama. Focus on doing what you do and being who you are, and cultivating real relationships with real people with real values that you share.

Awesome what you and the more genuninely human/humane members of your community did for that little boy. Keep up that kind of collective action and before too long the haters are going to isolate themselves out of relevance, if not existance.

lhamo

[Forum follower]

I have been in the same situation, it was at work and the reason was that I didn't follow the norm which was getting away as much misconduct as possible. I underwent a lot of back stabbing and false rumors were passed around about me. My tactic was to ignore the insults and rumors and continue with my business, I wasn't going to let anyone force me out of my job.

[Zoebird]

It's true: haters gonna hate.

That's ok. I say just keep on doing what you're doing, and work on not letting it bother you, and go from there.

If you want the path of chaos, wihtout someone knowing the origin, then it's cool. But fair warning, it can start fires on it's own.

[mamalatte]

Well, Zoebird, I'm not very chaotic by nature, so I doubt that would be my path but you have whetted my curiosity -- what would the path of chaos entail?

[Wildflower]

Goodness, I've seen that happen right here on the street I live on. People don't like someones else's politics, or someone thinks their kid or dog was treated badly, or they don't like the landscaping next to their fence, etc. It's always petty stuff, but one neighbor will shun the other neighbor....until either they die or move away. Sad.

[Zoebird]

Well, it's mostly a process of creating and then playing upon people's anxieties.

First, you have to understand deeply the organizational structure of the group -- where everyone is in the hierarchy and how it works. Then, you have to identify the anxieties that they abate through this particular organizational structure.

Then, through a series of obfuscations and minor "pranks," you expose and "poke at" those anxieties, until the thing breaks itself down.

By pranks, I do mean simple things. some of the most successful are moving objects from one location to another, with it never leaving the person's property or space and never being harmed. It creates the "I'm sure I put this here" situation, where the person doesn't know if s/he is "crazy" because reality isn't matching up to memory or because s/he doesn't know who or what or why things are getting moved. Either way, it's gaslighting, basically. And it creates a question within the person as to whether or not they are in fact reasonable/rational and seeing clearly.

Then, the obfuscation starts to take root because they don't know what's real anymore, and dont' really trust themselves to know, so whom do they ask? They look to their structure. Queen bees, though, do not often have confidants, because they know how vulnerable that is, and their position itself. But, that's not the only substrate where yo work.

In my own chaotic processes, I worked minor annoyance pranks on the Queen bee, and focused the obfuscation on the various levels of worker bees in order to create high anxiety in them. Through their anxiety, the queen bee has to work harder to maintain the equilibrium (and position of power), and as she becomes less trustful of herself and her own abilities (due to her confusion/anxiety from the minor pranks/annoyances), the whole system starts to break down.

But it can go really bad. I didn't understand the extent of the vulnerabilities of the girls on which I worked, and one landed herself in a mental institution through this process. Another was kicked out of school for bringing a weapon, and a teacher left as well. Maybe it's not related, but I suspect that it was. Things can go far afield pretty quickly, when you pray on anxieties.

So, since I know the power of chaos, I rarely go there. I have when I feel pushed, though.

[Wildflower]

But it can go really bad. I didn't understand the extent of the vulnerabilities of the girls on which I worked, and one landed herself in a mental institution through this process. Another was kicked out of school for bringing a weapon, and a teacher left as well. Maybe it's not related, but I suspect that it was. Things can go far afield pretty quickly, when you pray on anxieties.

Sounds like the plot from those mean girl teenage movies my DD's watched when they were much younger... :0!

Mamalatte, you could just start a vicious rumor about those that won't speak to you - I've seen my neighbors do that and it seemed to do what they wanted it to do. Me, I stay clear of all of these types of shenanigans - I believe in karma! :devil:

[Zoebird]

The Mean Girls movie was based on a book called Queen Bees and Wannabes (or something close), so yes.

But, I was never a queen bee, and nor did I wannabe. I just wanted to live in a place where people weren't bullying me or my sister. And so I went for wht I saw.

Turns out, what I did was "dastardly!' in some circles, but you know what? It's because bullied people aren't supposed to find a way to fight back, using the bully's own natural vulnerability to it.

[Forum follower]

Zoe bird, good move. In my experience these kinds of people cannot understand or respond to normal discussion or even have any interest in trying to resolve relationship problems. Their only method of operation is lies and deception. If you decide to fight back, that's ok in my opinion, it just lets them know their behavior will not be tolerated by everyone. Judging from what happened to these girls, going into a mental institution and being kicked out of school for bring a weapon, I think it's pretty obvious they had mental problems to begin with.

[Karma]

I can understand the realtor and friends, she lost her license over your home deal. Even if it is completely the realtors fault and was illegal you know she will still hold a grudge! And goodness knows what she told her friends about you. I would just ignore those people and move on. There just isn't much you can do about that.

i'm guessing that you might be trying too hard if people tell you that you are harassing them. Join some groups and make new friends and leave the others alone.

[mamalatte]

Deleted.

[Zoebird]

Well, it's more obvious in small communities. It happens in large communities (where there are communities within communities) but in a larger one, it's easier to find other people and avoid those people entirely.

Also, I should note that the path of the Chaos -- no one knew what was going on or who was responsible. I never confronted *anyone* about any of it. I just started creating an overall sense of instability in the environment at both physical and social levels, and the individuals responded to that. At any time, a person could have simply said "ah, someone has clever pranks." Or, a student could have said "this is obviously a set up."

There was only one priest at the school who sussed out that it was a single individual or very small group of people (he estimated 2-3 people -- I overheard him talking about it in the teacher's lounge) who are running pranks to create instability, and if the teachers are not fussed up about it and create stability and pretend that the pranks aren't happening, then it wouldn't work to do what the person is apparently trying to do.

Of course, no one listened to *reason* -- instead, they let their inherent anxiety rule their actions.

I'm not responsible for their anxiety, nor did I know how far it would go. I was only responsible for creating a modest amount of social instability.

And yet, people call that evil.

What they dont' call evil is the constant name calling, shaming, and physical assualting of my person and my sister's person. They don't call the collusion of the teachers and administrators -- "her mother is so-and-so, so we have to let it go" or "i'm sure it's just a big misunderstanding" or blantantly ignoring it when it's happening in the classroom right in front of them. No, you see, that's "normal" and allowing that behavior creates a climate of fear and control where teachers are allowing students to bully (and be bullied) in order to maintain the control that they desire. In fact, teacher's bully themselves when they punish, reward, and even withhold the privilege! of going to the toilet when are person *needs* to. All of that is bullying.

You fight back from that through basically non-harming pranks, which highlights their anxiety, and you are evil.

[pinkytoe]

they don't like the landscaping next to their fence
Although not shunned, I definitely feel like the outsider when it comes to landscaping. I am sandwiched between two perfect lawns owned by old biddies who can't stand to see an errant leaf even in the dead of winter. It drives me nuts....if I let it. Co-existing among others is definitely a lesson in tolerance. Seems like if you just smile a lot and be friendly, you eventually disarm their intent to be non-inclusive or judgemental. That's my tactic anyway.

[CeciliaW]

It happens all over. I married into a family that had been in a certain county for about 25 years at that time. Even after 4 years I was 'only good enough to invite over for coffee'. Gah.

I left that whole mess to feed upon themselves and went out into the world again.

Works for me.

[try2bfrugal]

On the New Adventures of Old Christine, they call the women like that the "meanie moms." We live in a more urban area but within our neighborhood we have our share of those. The good news is that they often turn on each other the same way. I have learned to just give them a wide berth.

[JaneV2.0]

On the New Adventures of Old Christine, they call the women like that the "meanie moms." We live in a more urban area but within our neighborhood we have our share of those. The good news is that they often turn on each other the same way. I have learned to just give them a wide berth.

Some people seem to be stuck in a kind of perpetual middle school--a phenomenon that can be interesting from a distance.

[herbgeek]

Some people seem to be stuck in a kind of perpetual middle school--a phenomenon that can be interesting from a distance.

That's my neighbor across the street. She thinks it bothers me that I'm not in her mommy club. But I don't have kids, and don't have to deal with her, so I don't. She used to have more of the neighbors in her mommy club, but a bunch of them have seen how she really is over time and avoid her too. Funny to see a bunch of cars at the end of the street waiting to pick up their kids with all the moms so busy busy on their cell phones in their individual cars, where they all used to hang out and talk.

[mamalatte]

Thanks for all of your thoughts and comments. I plan to continue my focus on those in the community who are receptive and friendly.

[Karma]

Karma - Just to clarify, realtor lost her license temporarily for a reason independent of our home sale (lying that she had completed mandatory training when in fact she had not). I just pointed it out in my initial post to show that in addition to my personal experience with her, there are independent indications that she is not a good realtor or trustworthy person.

Either way, you are right and I have been focusing my efforts on others since realtor, neighbor, and their friends are clearly a lost cause. Now that I know more about them, I don't really want to be good friends with them anyway. On the other hand, I see no reason why even these people cannot say a polite hello to me when we pass on the sidewalk or are the only two people waiting to pick our kids up at school, etc. etc. I also strongly believe that realtor, when acting in her capacity as the public school substitute for one of my children's teachers, has no right to ignore me on school grounds -- she's the one who chooses to work in that position (and this is something she recently started doing).

In any event, the reason for my post was to find out how common this type of "cold shoulder" behavior is, since I have never encountered it in any other place where I have lived. From the responses, I gather it may be more common than I realized, especially in small towns . . . I think that in the other places I was living, which were mostly urban and downtown, neighbors just didn't know one another as well, or sometimes not at all so this type of thing just didn't come up as much.

if you think others HAVE to speak to you then it is now becoming a problem with you and not them. You can't control others or how they feel or react to you. If you need to talk to a substitute teacher about your child's school work and she won't talk to you then take it up with the principal, but otherwise I see no reason to speak with her. Let it go and you will be the happier, bigger person. Forcing others to acknolwlege you is sort of harassing.

[try2bfrugal]

Some people seem to be stuck in a kind of perpetual middle school--a phenomenon that can be interesting from a distance.

One of our neighbors was telling me about being ostracized by some of the meanie moms because her son skipped a single band practice for a high school band performance one of the meanie moms was in charge of because he needed some dental work done. I think the kid graduated at the top of his class and was very responsible, so he knew his piece well, had been to all other practices and was not going to let anyone down the night of the performance.

(I changed the details slightly to protect the privacy of my neighbor, but you get the idea.) My neighbor was surprised I had not heard about it because it was such a huge deal to her and the meanie moms who she thought were her friends.

I felt bad for my neighbor but it made me glad I had a rewarding career and more emotionally mature friends.