View Full Version : Too many folks are lacking the practicality bone these days
Using a comment CathyA made in her thread about health insurance for her DD as a springboard -
Seems like more and more kids go to college in things that might not earn them much money. But you hate guiding them in a way that is ONLY about the money.
I hate to say it, but more kids have to be realistic, come down to earth. The "do what you love" thing is not realistic in this new economy. Oh, it might be for a few, but on the whole, no. It's not practical. These kids start out by going to extremely expensive colleges for things like social work and education, that don't pay a whole lot, yet burden themselves with massive student loans. They graduate, can't find a job, or one that pays relatively decent, or are delusional/overly picky and don't take a decent paying job "because it's not what I want to do." Well, party's over! You took out all those loans and you have to pay them back. These kids who think they shouldn't have to pay them back are nothing more than deadbeats. "I didn't understand what I was doing" is a bunch o' BS.
Go to community college your first two years while living at home. Then go to state school, maybe even - gasp! - one of the second tier ones. I did my bachelor's at a second tier state school. It didn't hurt me at all. In fact, my alma mater is (at least was) the best place to get a teaching degree in my home state (started out as a teacher's college in the 19th century). Doing so is not a sin and it's not lowering yourself.
Get yourself a degree in something practical, don't take out massive loans, and get a job. You will likely have to compromise. Deal with it. You can do "what you love" on the side, as a hobby. Maybe you might turn it into a side business eventually.
ApatheticNoMore
1-17-13, 10:55pm
The state school system is so overcrowded some places that going to state schools and community colleges have MAJOR downsides. You won't get out of the community college in 2 years. I've read stories of young people who are plenty philosophical about it, as in: "yes I'm taking classes at several different public colleges at once to try to get through, yes I won't graduate in 4 years, more like 6, but we can't give up on ourselves and need to get our education" But for some people forsaking the local state school and getting out in a more traditional timeframe may be a much better answer.
College summer school in California largely a thing of the past
Community college students are especially hard hit as many campuses virtually eliminate summer classes because of budget cuts, affecting the students' plans.
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/28/local/la-me-adv-college-summer-20120527
California students are increasingly being courted by out-of-state colleges seeking to take advantage of cutbacks and rising tuition at the Golden State's public universities.
http://www.kpho.com/story/18694823/arizona-among-states-recruiting-ca-college-students
State cutbacks send many to private colleges
http://www.sfgate.com/education/article/State-cutbacks-send-many-to-private-colleges-2374552.php
Community-college students California will be able to fulfill some of their associate-degree requirements by taking single online courses from Kaplan University under an agreement announced today. The state’s 110 community colleges have been hurt by steep cuts in state support, and they have been unable to accommodate the huge demand for college courses generated by the recession. For-profit colleges have stepped in to fill in some of the gaps.
http://chronicle.com/blogs/ticker/california-community-college-students-may-take-online-kaplan-courses-for-credit/21134
The staying power one might have in a professional field is severely limited if one does not like what they do. The world needs people fully alive, and connected to their passions, creativity, and energy that comes from loving what they do. I have seen too many miserable people to ever believe that it's wrong to engage one's passion as a career. Too many people sucking it up, 'dealing with it', and being miserable is a sad waste.
Doing what one loves is the best way to have a life one loves, in my opinion. There are so may ways to make this happen! We fully support our kids doing what they love, which is art & theatre, and my 23 year old DSD is in her MFA with a full scholarship & a half time teaching assistanship in theatre. My DSS is a first year graphic & fine arts student at an amazing insitution, and for the first time, at the age of 20, he is fully alive, present, and engaged with his life. He has the mentoring, support, and rigorous training to be able to channel his natural talents into incredible work. He has a graphic arts career ahead of him.
More than anything, I want for them a life they are happy with. Everything else is possible when this is in place.
I know folks much poorer than we are who are much happier because they pursued work that they love instead of pursuing work that paid better, like we did. We're both "locked in" because it takes years to go down any path. They're effectively "locked into" happy but poor and we're effectively locked into "counting the days to retirement".
I think that it needs to be understood that not all states are in the financial straits that California finds itself in. Indiana has a growing community college system that is tied into our public university. They are expanding offerings.
Ivy Tech, our huge community college system, is even reaching out to high school students by offering classes while in high school.
(I hate to say it, but more kids have to be realistic, come down to earth.)
This quote sums it up to me on so many differing levels. Not all of course, but many and adults too need this in life. Not just for schooling, but everything before they get old. No you can't have it all, no you can't have a house,car, all that college or more till you earn it which means paying your dues and saving. If one took out the debt, PAY it and quit complaining about it. No one cares if you signed for it and now are paying the consequences of that.
OK I have a 54 year old sibling,,,,,,,,,,,I have heard these lines all related to his choice of signing for educational loans. SO perhaps I am sided. But bet he perhaps would have been happier at 50 if he would not have gotten all that education and signed for it, but worked and earned it instead.
sweetana3,
This is true of our area of MI also.
The staying power one might have in a professional field is severely limited if one does not like what they do. The world needs people fully alive, and connected to their passions, creativity, and energy that comes from loving what they do. I have seen too many miserable people to ever believe that it's wrong to engage one's passion as a career. Too many people sucking it up, 'dealing with it', and being miserable is a sad waste.
* raises hand * It is almost exactly one year to the day I looked up from my computer screen and realized I had had it and needed to find something else to do. Dreading every day you have to go in to work at a job which does not engage you is no life, even if they're paying you six figures to do it. I also know that, being burned out, I was not worth that kind of money to my employer. In my case, I "sucked it up" for another five months until I had prepped my colleagues for my departure and I was pretty sure DW and I could manage with me not working for at least a while. I have no doubt in my mind that being "practical" about my job and staying there would have ended with some major medical event. And I have witnesses, all of whom comment on how much better I look now that I'm off that hamster wheel.
I also will put in a plug for following one's muse much earlier in life. I think we all know people who spent their entire lives dreaming of being a doctor or an actor or a police officer or whatever and then enjoyed long successful careers in their chosen fields. But I would venture that most of us currently have had jobs -- maybe entire careers -- different from what we thought we'd do in our teenage/young adult years. I treated college as a vocational school myself, and I can tell you that my 25-year largely-successful career in IT drew very little from my degree in journalism and chemistry. I think "locking down" is getting a little antiquated as a career strategy; the world of work changes too quickly with jobs moving across the world and new opportunities arising in new fields. And what better time to try something out than when you're not involved with feeding other people and making rent/mortgage payments or tied to a location at which you're caring for elderly family members?
I definitely think that people should think about where they will land after all the classes and projects. Getting a degree in, say, French or Museum Studies may be interesting and fun, but it's smart to think about how you monetize that and if there's some other area of personal interest that might provide more working opportunities in life. On the other hand, a friend of mine is a highly-specialized software engineer and there are maybe four jobs in the Twin Cities which would be considered equivalent to his, so, in his own way, he's not very employable either. Completely different career approaches; very similar results.
Here is how I level this playing field with myself. I work in healthcare and while not my choice of job, it pays the bills. Do combat stress and keep me sane, I volunteer doing dog rescue and spend a lot of time helping my son and his baseball/soccer teams. I would love to find a job working in animal rescue but the reality is I don't want to be broke and I have a little boy to think of and my future. I have learned to let go of a lot at work. I am not longer the top performer but I keep my nose clean so they can't come back at me for an issues. I do what is expected and a little more. This has alleviated a lot of stress for me. I guess my point is be smart about choosing a career but realistic. It may not be perfect but find a way to make yourself happy and have some money in the bank, with no debt.
It should be possible for people to make a living doing what they love, but it takes a strategy and a lot of work to make that happen. I would never consign someone to a Horrible Soul-sucking Job (tm) plus a staggering student loan--that sounds like one of the lower circles of hell.
With as much as an education costs today, the least colleges could do is provide solid career counseling and placement for their graduates so they don't all end up driving cabs or working at Starbuck's.
That said, in this jobless new world, it behooves young people to catch on quickly to the fact that they're going to have to work to support themselves and act accordingly. There are only so many Kardashians.
* raises hand * It is almost exactly one year to the day I looked up from my computer screen and realized I had had it and needed to find something else to do. Dreading every day you have to go in to work at a job which does not engage you is no life, even if they're paying you six figures to do it. I also know that, being burned out, I was not worth that kind of money to my employer. In my case, I "sucked it up" for another five months until I had prepped my colleagues for my departure and I was pretty sure DW and I could manage with me not working for at least a while. I have no doubt in my mind that being "practical" about my job and staying there would have ended with some major medical event. And I have witnesses, all of whom comment on how much better I look now that I'm off that hamster wheel.
My hand is raised on this one, too. Steve, I had the exact same experience. I didn't act impulsively--I did have a game plan that I was pretty certain would work, but I did feel compelled to follow my gut and trade the security of a really good steady income for a life I could build on more or less my own terms.
I think futzing (sp?) around while you're young is absolutely fine--and as Steve said, maybe is better than just going on lockdown in the corporate world, as long as you have the means to do it. I wouldn't go into debt to do it and I would make sure my expectations were in line with reality, but what's wrong with getting that out of your system while you're young? If you are happy with really cheap living quarters and living without a car or a fancy this or that, you won't have much lifestyle to support so you can maybe try things others who have to feed the beast of lifestyle--or even their families--might not have the ability to do.
"The state school system is so overcrowded some places that going to state schools and community colleges have MAJOR downsides. You won't get out of the community college in 2 years."
Keywords: "in some places." I teach at a multi-campus community college on the east coast and (1) I teach year-round; (2) online and in-person classes are offered in 16, 12, and 8 week sessions, also year-round; (3) students need to work early and often with their advisors to enroll promptly to get the classes they want and (4) sometimes (this happened to me years ago at my conventional 4-year state undergrad university) students have to compromise on the specific classes they want to take in order to be sure that they graduate on time.
My state has also worked very hard to ensure smooth transfers between the community college and the 4-year colleges and universities in the state, including two that are nationally known for their very high academic standards for admission. I've had students who successfully transferred in to them after graduating from the community college, who might not have been admitted had they applied directly as freshmen.
I get crazy about the message that you have to do things a certain way and in a certain time frame or you mess up your life. If you want to do something badly enough, you'll find a way to do it and will accomplish it no matter how long it takes. You don't need the path to be easy or quick, and you don't need to go into deep debt. If you change your mind later in life, well, go ahead! Change is good. Just don't whine that you "can't" do something that is available to you but requires effort and time.
iris lily
1-18-13, 11:03am
Oh I think being young IS the time to follow your passion. By "young" I do mean unencumbered with, say, babies. And student debt. I bounced around and didn't get serious about things until I was 25, and then I got VERY serious, career all the way. But I had no debt of any kind and could afford to take the most interesting job that was also the lowest paying one., it was the one I wanted.
ApatheticNoMore
1-18-13, 12:13pm
I know folks much poorer than we are who are much happier because they pursued work that they love instead of pursuing work that paid better, like we did. We're both "locked in" because it takes years to go down any path. They're effectively "locked into" happy but poor and we're effectively locked into "counting the days to retirement".
Yea but when you realize when the politicos talk about gutting SS it leads not just to thoughts of "this is a bad idea, this won't end well for this country" (which is of course true), but thoughts of "if I can't retire maybe I should just throw myself off a bridge, because retirement is definitely the ONLY THING I'm working for and sometimes it seems the only thing I'm living for!". And I'm in my late 30s, I've got awhile. You ultimately come to realize even the path you are on is futile. And mid-life crisis dreams of running away to do something a little more interesting for 20k a year don't seem so bad afterall ... (because I've just about given up on doing anything more interesting that actually pays the bills much less with room to save, because everyone says it's impossible to me all the time - and I don't mostly mean people online or anything, I mean everyone I know in person). But if we're all going to work until we die anyway probably, I don't think I can do it with this work. Never even mind then I'll hit age discrimation long before then anyway. While they may hire the top 80% of 20 or 30 somethings (although if you're brand new it can be tough to break in), they'll only keep the top- 10% of 50 somethings, and I don't have the passion for it .....
I think that it needs to be understood that not all states are in the financial straits that California finds itself in. Indiana has a growing community college system that is tied into our public university. They are expanding offerings.
Ivy Tech, our huge community college system, is even reaching out to high school students by offering classes while in high school.
Well for those people the original advice of going to a community college or state school makes sense, but people in California should pay out of state tuition and go to school in Indiana!!! Or if not there somewhere else. And shouldn't be blamed too hard for taking a hit economically for doing so, they didn't have any great choices: it was a simple trade off: spend more money for college or take more time to graduate, pick one.
Yea but when you realize when the politicos talk about gutting SS it leads not just to thoughts of "this is a bad idea, this won't end well for this country" (which is of course true),Well, it's your opinion at least, and absent of a specific alternative to compare it against, it's hard to give that much significance.
but thoughts of "if I can't retire maybe I should just throw myself off a bridge, because retirement is definitely the ONLY THING I'm working for and sometimes it seems the only thing I'm living for!".For those who aren't "working the dream" they had better have other things in their lives (other than work and money) making life worth living, because money isn't going to be enough to keep such people from throwing themselves off a bridge.
And I'm in my late 30s, I've got awhile. You ultimately come to realize even the path you are on is futile.I suggest that anyone who does was going in that direction regardless without retirement savings being a significant part of the equation.
The staying power one might have in a professional field is severely limited if one does not like what they do. The world needs people fully alive, and connected to their passions, creativity, and energy that comes from loving what they do. I have seen too many miserable people to ever believe that it's wrong to engage one's passion as a career. Too many people sucking it up, 'dealing with it', and being miserable is a sad waste.
Doing what one loves is the best way to have a life one loves, in my opinion. There are so may ways to make this happen! We fully support our kids doing what they love, which is art & theatre, and my 23 year old DSD is in her MFA with a full scholarship & a half time teaching assistanship in theatre. My DSS is a first year graphic & fine arts student at an amazing insitution, and for the first time, at the age of 20, he is fully alive, present, and engaged with his life. He has the mentoring, support, and rigorous training to be able to channel his natural talents into incredible work. He has a graphic arts career ahead of him.
More than anything, I want for them a life they are happy with. Everything else is possible when this is in place.
+1 Wish you had been my mom!! I spent too many years trying to do the right thing, have the right job but the whole time I knew it all wasn't the right fit. Now that I'm moving forward with my art I feel free and have so much more energy to move forward and make it happen!
treehugger
1-22-13, 3:03pm
Community-college students California will be able to fulfill some of their associate-degree requirements by taking single online courses from Kaplan University under an agreement announced today. The state’s 110 community colleges have been hurt by steep cuts in state support, and they have been unable to accommodate the huge demand for college courses generated by the recession. For-profit colleges have stepped in to fill in some of the gaps.
http://chronicle.com/blogs/ticker/california-community-college-students-may-take-online-kaplan-courses-for-credit/21134
That's very helpful, thanks for posting it. This is very relevant to me because I started back at school last semester, in order to get my bachelor’s degree. I have a good career in environmental consulting, and I have been very lucky so far to get this far without a degree. But it will hold me back soon. In this field, everyone has a relevant degree (environmental science or engineering), so I am a lone, non-degreed wolf and it’s not good for my future prospects, especially if I should get laid off and have to look for a new job with a different company. Again, so far, my company has been very good to me.
Anyway, I live in California and set out to go the community college, then transfer to a state university route. I have one semester under my belt (and some credits from 20 years ago) but hit a snag when I wanted to sign up for classes this semester. I know I need to take 2 or 3 classes a semester or I will never make it through all the breadth, general ed classes required for transfer. Well, I need to work my way up to the transferable intermediate algebra, so I signed up for 2 classes below that (remedial math or something), which was a self-paced class. I had to drop it because it included 12 hours required time per week (in the lab at school and at home on the computer program), plus the teacher recommended spending twice that time per week if I “wanted to finish the coursework in one semester.” Um, 24 hours a week for one class, that isn’t even transferrable, isn’t doable for me. I work a more-than-full-time, career-type job. What the heck? Who can do that? And I wanted to take another class this semester, too (Oceanography, a transferrable life science).
*sigh* This is all very frustrating. Community colleges (and, I gather state universities, too) are *not* geared towards working adults completing a degree in less than 10 years. The class schedules, classes offered, amount of credits needed, and business hours of things like the book store and counseling center are all arranged to suit kids who work a few hours a week at Starbucks. I realize a lot of this has to do with state budget cuts (cutting the number of classes offered any one semester, support services), and this is likely to get worse.
But the bottom line is, I need to find an alternative. A school geared towards working adults. Unfortunately, a lot of the private schools, while accredited, do not give the same quality of education, or at least do not have the reputations that even second-tier state schools (that is, a California State University [CSU], rather than a University of California [UC]) have, so a diploma from a Kaplan or a Phoenix isn’t worth very much when looking to advance one’s career. And that doesn't even take into account how much more private schools cost than community colleges and state universities. My company does pay up to $6,000 per year for continuing education, for which I am very grateful, but I need to find an option that includes a doable end result and is affordable.
So, I am floundering right now. I don’t have the answers, but I am investigating my options.
Kara
Kara,
I am really skeptical that you would need to put in the kind of hours extra suggested by that instructor for a remedial math class. Perhaps they are accustomed to working with people who have problems with math (hence the remedial), or very poor time-management skills. I think you should try signing up for it again and seeing how it goes. How much of the required time has to be done on campus? I'd see how much you can get done in that time, and then add a few hours at home. I predict you will finish well before the end of the term.
Another consideration -- does the college offer a math placement test? If so I would definitely sign up for that. Again, even if you have been away from math for a long time, you probably have better skills than you think, especially given you work in a somewhat technical field. No sense in wasting time taking (and paying for) classes you don't get credit for.
lhamo
treehugger
1-22-13, 4:25pm
Kara,
I am really skeptical that you would need to put in the kind of hours extra suggested by that instructor for a remedial math class. Perhaps they are accustomed to working with people who have problems with math (hence the remedial), or very poor time-management skills. I think you should try signing up for it again and seeing how it goes. How much of the required time has to be done on campus? I'd see how much you can get done in that time, and then add a few hours at home. I predict you will finish well before the end of the term.
Another consideration -- does the college offer a math placement test? If so I would definitely sign up for that. Again, even if you have been away from math for a long time, you probably have better skills than you think, especially given you work in a somewhat technical field. No sense in wasting time taking (and paying for) classes you don't get credit for.
I actually went to school on the first night (before I decided to drop) to talk the instructor. The 12 hours a week is required. If you don't put in that much time, you get dropped. They only recommend double that, so of course it might not be the case. But even 12 hours per week for one class (since I would have assumed about 6 hours a week for my other class) would have been unsustainable for me. And the next two math classes I need would have had the same requirements.
Anyway, I did take the assessment before I registered, and was deemed "20% ready to take elementary algebra." Which was why I signed up for the class below that one. I haven't taken math in 20 years, and even way back then, I passed, but never "got" algebra.
Thanks for the comments, but I don't think I can take math at our local community college. I need to find another way.
Kara
A friend of mine got a book--maybe Algebra 1 for Dummies--and taught herself. She got her algebra credit--the last one she needed to graduate.
fidgiegirl
1-22-13, 6:19pm
Yes, it's a wild one, but what Jane says is so much more within reach with the Internet - courses in iTunes U, or through Coursera, or using a text on CK-12 Flexbooks, or using Khan Academy . . .
Another idea is to use a public program online, but from a different state.
Sorry there are so many roadblocks in a motivated person's way. :( Don't let it stop you, I remember you being anxious about this at the outset. You can do it!!
treehugger
1-22-13, 6:34pm
Yes, it's a wild one, but what Jane says is so much more within reach with the Internet - courses in iTunes U, or through Coursera, or using a text on CK-12 Flexbooks, or using Khan Academy . . .
Another idea is to use a public program online, but from a different state.
Thanks, I sincerely appreciate the comments and advice. Don't want to sound like I am naysaying everything, but my challenge right now is finding ways to take care of the general ed that the state university system will accept. I have to take the breadth classes from an approved source, not just learn it on my own. Obviously, if I could learn algebra on my own, then I would only actually need to take intermediate algebra (transferable) at the community college (although, apparently, that class, too, has that 12 hour required minimum per week).
So, anyway, I am definitely looking into online programs from public schools in other states (Oregon State was suggested to me, but I haven't researched it yet), even though online classes don't really suit my learning style. I can get past that, certainly, if I can find one that is affordable with a doable amount of classes that I can finish in less than 5 years, at a school that has a name that is worth something on a resume.
I don't mean that in any way to make me sound like a snob. *I* don't care about the name of the school, but I do know that you can't just get a degree from anywhere and have it carry the same weight as a respected school. But trust me, the state university I have always assumed I would transfer to (Cal State East Bay) is no prestige school, and yet it would be just fine, assuming I can graduate in a reasonable amount of time, for resume purposes.
Kara
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