View Full Version : The right to challenge family members behavior
CaseyMiller
1-22-13, 10:57pm
The bad decisions we all make in life often take years to manifest into bad results. A family member choosing to smoke three packs a day can do so for decades before developing lung problems if ever at all. The sibling that chooses to live way beyond their means, constantly in debt, can live decades with little signs of poverty. You get my point. The thing is this...
I'm now old enough to see the long term negative effects of where these bad decisions lead. I see them both in myself and, more precisely, in my close family members. For us frugal types, when we see such behavior, it is easy to believe it will never turn into our problem. It is none of our business. Truth be told though, few of us can turn away from the needs of a sick parent. Or, perhaps, to deny shelter to a destitute sibling when they are basically homeless.
Close family members have destroyed their health by drinking and/or smoking. These addictions are expensive so there is extreme poverty along with the health issues. During the decades of bad behavior and substance abuse any hint or mention that the family member should change their ways was often met with a snarling rebuke.
To my point - in hindsight, I wish I would have been far more vocal about the bad decisions/behavior I witnessed. There were many verbal brawls but I should have pushed it much farther than I did. Eventually I just gave up. Now, I am saddled with the care and expense these bad decisions manifested into.
Unless there is no doubt we can turn our backs on close family members in their desperate time of need, than I believe we have the right and responsibility to call them out on their bad decisions/behavior.
iris lily
1-22-13, 11:19pm
...I believe we have the right and responsibility to call them out on their bad decisions/behavior.
Whatever you say--highly unlikely that will change anything. If you want to "call them out" once on it--ok. But it is naive to think that will turn any behavior around based on your words. And, how much help you lend to someone in need, to someone without resources who made a choice to smoke them up, is again up to you. The hard reality is that these are usually two separate decisions that you (the generic you) will make, with little intersection between the two related concepts in practicality.
ApatheticNoMore
1-22-13, 11:37pm
Whatever you say--highly unlikely that will change anything. ... The hard reality is that these are usually two separate decisions that you (the generic you) will make, with little intersection between the two related concepts in practicality.
+1. I'm not sure what the original poster thinks they could have done differently, that if only you yelled at them more about smoking or something, they would quit? If one is truly ignorant about something then information might help, and sure whatever, email them information on every new bad thing smoking contributes to in the hope something might stick, tell them they should seek rehab etc.. But they'll do it when they are good and ready or they won't do it at all, and it's only very minimally due to your influence.
Oh and I've seen positive changes, giving up addictions, and it was seldom because of what anyone said (except maybe ocassionally a doctor!), mostly there was no single external factor that preceded it.
Whatever you say--highly unlikely that will change anything. If you want to "call them out" once on it--ok. But it is naive to think that will turn any behavior around based on your words. And, how much help you lend to someone in need, to someone without resources who made a choice to smoke them up, is again up to you. The hard reality is that these are usually two separate decisions that you (the generic you) will make, with little intersection between the two related concepts in practicality.
+2
I would add at all of us are this person in someone else's eyes. The relationship you have is all that matters.
CaseyMiller
1-23-13, 12:43am
Of course you are both right. There is little to be done to change an addicts behavior until they are ready.
Still, in hindsight, perhaps there was chance to demand responsible, adult like, behavior when they first started screwing up.
In my experience the family adjusted their life for the addict instead of insisting the addict be a responsible family member.
I highly recommend Al-Anon. And... Why think that the addict is screwing up?
chrisgermany
1-23-13, 4:42am
IMO you have a right to speak up. You do this for yourself as it might make you feel better. But this will most likely not have any effect on the problem family member, other than the risk of undermining your relationship if he/she takes your comments bad.
The change will only come if the problem family member is ready. You cannot make them getting ready.
Explore why you feel responsible for care and expense and how far you would take such responsibility.
Help the problem member to find resources of support once he/she is looking for that: IMO yes.
Sacrifice my life for someone who does not pull his weight? IMO not.
And recall the warning on airplanes: First apply the oxygen mask to yourself. Then try to help your neighbor.
In my experience the family adjusted their life for the addict instead of insisting the addict be a responsible family member.
This is very, very common--almost inescapable unless the family member seeks help and support for him/herself, such as redfox's AlAnon suggestion. You can't do anything about the addict, but you can do something about your own attitudes and behavior. Your shifting COULD effect change in the addict, but that would be just a byproduct of the healthy behaviors and boundaries you set, and change in the addict certainly isn't guaranteed, or something you can control.
Lots opf good advice, CaseyM.
May I suggest as well, that you love the good in these people, whether family or friends, finding out what you value about them and focus on that rather than the deficit/addiction.
I have been where you are and am living with peace because I loved what was good (sense of humour, intelligence, kindness, vitality etc) and left the responsibility for change to them which is where it belongs.
I have a fulltime job being responsible for myself and my thoughts, feelings and actions.
That said, you have every right to set clear boundaries to protect your peace of mind and current situation. You are not, nor every have been, a beast of burden so don't take on that role. When I attended Al-anon, I learned that I did not cause, cannot control and cannot cure the addiction
I believe that it is only by seeking out objective counsel through Al-anon or other agency that you will be able to sort through the options and set those boundaries and follow through.
Try to live your life so that you will not regret your choices later.
Miss Cellane
1-23-13, 9:16am
You couldn't change their behavior then and you can't change it now.
Al-Alon can be a great resource in helping deal with the repercussions of decades of poor choices.
What you can do now is set limits on how much assistance you offer family members. You can let someone live with you, but with a firm deadline by which they need to have a job, any job, or be in school. A firm deadline on when they will move out. You can make them pay rent. You can point them to government programs that will feed, shelter and clothe them. You do not have to bankrupt your future for their bad past decisions.
ToomuchStuff
1-24-13, 12:42pm
Speaking up to the point of being rebuked, could have a positive result in they won't come to you for help, so you won't have to rebuke them back.
But it can also strain relationships with other family members, who just put their head in the sand.
I, Having just survived the addiction of a loved one, who I loved and enabled more then life it's self,,,my son. I learned that {{{{{I did not cause it, I can not control it and I can not change it}}}}. If yelling could have worked I would have yelled from the top of the tallest mountain. LOVE can conquer all...false because it takes tuff love to "save yourself". My home is was not a rehab, I was not a Dr or a Addiction specialist or Counselor, Mom can not kiss all boo boos and make things better, what I was is a person who loved someone too much. The hardest thing was to release the person to gods hands AND dropping him off at the Rehab Recovery Hospital for many months.
HE is CLEAN now going on 16 months, because he knew it was live or die and he choose to work on recovery and will the rest of his life. It can be done! Get yourself help so your loved one can get themself help.
I grew up in a family of alcholics. Only once did I protest without being asked. My brother and his wife were feeding their not-one-year-old son a bottle of beer a day, and laughingly showed me how when they came in the room with the bottle he would start wiggling and holding out his hands for the bottle. I wrote them my opinion of this and they called and thanked me. Nothing changed. It's over 20 years later and they're all still drinking. I have, on the other hand, known people who did interventions and it worked.
. My brother and his wife were feeding their not-one-year-old son a bottle of beer a day, and laughingly showed me how when they came in the room with the bottle he would start wiggling and holding out his hands for the bottle. .
yikes. Am glad you said something, but sad to hear it fell on deaf ears.
CaseyMiller
1-26-13, 5:34pm
I appreciate the thoughtful replies but admit to being surprised at the seeming consensus that little can be done to change the behavior of a family member. I have to disagree.
The intent of my post was to highlight that most of us, like it or not, are impacted by the decisions those close to us make. Yet, the "It's their choice and none of my business" attitude seems to be ubiquitous in most family cultures. My post wasn't specifically talking about ravaging addictions but also about on-going bad decisions in general.
If someone knew for sure that fifteen years from now they would have to provide intense care for a smoking parent ill with emphysema, of course they would be having very serious and on-going discussions about the need to stop. Problem is, few can look ahead that far and the care may never be needed.
My overall point is that we no longer hold each other accountable for actions when in fact other's actions impact us in a direct and significant way.
My overall point is that we no longer hold each other accountable for actions when in fact other's actions impact us in a direct and significant way.
This may be true for many situations with rational decision-making and intentions but addictions are a whole other kettle of fish. Addictions are totally self-centred, IMO, and, as hard as one might try, rational thought and decision-making based on the welfare of another simply does not enter the equation.
Once an addict realizes that s/he hates who s/he has become more than s/he desires the addictive source, only then can rationality enter the picture and again it will be self-centred.
To expect an addict to worry about your future wellbeing and the expense of caring for them due to the addiction, I am truly sorry to tell you, is not going to happen.
You are attempting to decide what to do and say to another on how s/he should think and how to behave based on your future and your view of their acccountability.
AlAnon will help you work through all this if you find a helpful group.
Please believe me when I say this viewpoint is based on working through just these issues myself.
ApatheticNoMore
1-26-13, 6:19pm
I appreciate the thoughtful replies but admit to being surprised at the seeming consensus that little can be done to change the behavior of a family member. I have to disagree.
I don't know, do you just have less stuborn family members? :laff:
The intent of my post was to highlight that most of us, like it or not, are impacted by the decisions those close to us make. Yet, the "It's their choice and none of my business" attitude seems to be ubiquitous in most family cultures.
More like there are certain psychological boundaries you draw to keep yourself from being consumed by their destructiveness because it could eat you alive too, but you have your own life to live as well ....
"Hold tight, hang tough
Love's not enough
To keep you off that stuff
To save you ...to save you now"
John Gorka
It's not that I wouldn't mention "you should get off drugs" many (but by no means every) times I saw them doped, "do you think you need to go back to rehab?" (knowing what this costs which almost noone can really afford but ...), but after it's mentioned there's nothing else to say about that, frankly might as well joke around and talk about the weather, it's seems more reasonable at that point than to keep harping for hours like a broken record: "get off drugs ... get off drugs ... get off drugs".
If someone knew for sure that fifteen years from now they would have to provide intense care for a smoking parent ill with emphysema, of course they would be having very serious and on-going discussions about the need to stop. Problem is, few can look ahead that far and the care may never be needed.
Well not everything one can predict is something one can alter. Kind of the tragic , cursed like casandra, but that's life. I can predict climate change is not likely to be good at all, it doesn't mean I can stop it single handedly. Family members sometimes seem no more in one's hands than that.
If someone knew for sure that fifteen years from now they would have to provide intense care for a smoking parent ill with emphysema, of course they would be having very serious and on-going discussions about the need to stop. Problem is, few can look ahead that far and the care may never be needed.
My mother smoked three packs of filterless cigarettes a day. When I was in high school I spoke with her about it all the time. I left pamphlets and brochures in her cigarette drawer. I often talked to her about it. Then I stopped talking. Years later she quit on her own, when she was ready, one random day. She was 60. A couple of years later she developed emphysema anyway, and that's how she died.
We can hold each other accountable for their actions, but you know what they say about leading a horse to water. Our own boundaries and our own actions--not our words--are the best tools to make sure we are protected from the bad decisions of those around us.
awakenedsoul
1-26-13, 8:29pm
My parents are both alcoholics and they know that I won't take care of them. They have enough money for in home care, though. I keep some physical distance with family members who are addicts. To me, if they choose the behavior, they choose the consequences. I guess it sounds harsh, but it's not my responsibility.
CaseyMiller
1-26-13, 9:30pm
My parents are both alcoholics and they know that I won't take care of them. They have enough money for in home care, though. I keep some physical distance with family members who are addicts. To me, if they choose the behavior, they choose the consequences. I guess it sounds harsh, but it's not my responsibility.
Similar situation and, at the time, thought the same thing. It didn't work out way. It is very difficult to turn a back on someone in desperate need.
Aqua Blue
1-27-13, 10:09am
I have a close family member who 2months ago lost their spouse to lung/bone cancer. It was a slow painful death that we all watched. That family member is still smoking at least 3 packs a day if not more. I know a few words or lots of nagging isn't going to change his smoking if watching his spouse die didn't.
21 years ago I started calling a cab at a party where DH was about to accept a drink he'd been offered. I'd told him once that I would not stay with him if he drank anymore. So now he believed it and stopped. The next year we got married.
I also stay away from active alcoholic family members, not wanting my life to be about that.
catherine
1-27-13, 11:51am
21 years ago I started calling a cab at a party where DH was about to accept a drink he'd been offered. I'd told him once that I would not stay with him if he drank anymore. So now he believed it and stopped. The next year we got married.
Sometimes that works. I remember Laura Bush giving that ultimatum to George, which led to his famous teetotalism. But in that interview, she said, "I was lucky. He stopped. Not everyone does." I was so glad she said that because it's so true. For every family member who can claim credit for pulling out the "I'm leaving" trump card to get the alcoholic to stop, there are 10 who tried and wound up alone with an alcoholic ex-husband. My mom is one of those. My father left us when we were young and although he was intelligent, creative, funny, and loving, and had everything to live for with four kids and a beautiful wife, he dropped dead homeless in the Bowery at age 43. None of us are as powerful as we would like to be. There but for the grace of God go I.
... It is very difficult to turn a back on someone in desperate need.
Oh, completely. "Difficult" is the word! But that's why Al-Anon helps with boundary setting behaviors for those impacted by the addicted. Inability to step back from addiction drama helps to feed addiction drama. It is a deep truth that you didn't cause it, you can't control nor cure this.
Posts here that seem to you to be oppositional are in fact confirming what you already know: the inherent difficulty of being in this situation. Be kind to yourself and allow yourself to set aside being responsible for what your loved ones are doing to themselves. People here are not saying it's not your business -- it is hugely impacting on your own life--so of course it is "your business." But the actions that you take in this situation are what we are debating.
What actions are you taking to house and feed the addicted?
Sounds to me like the OP is worried about the future care for family members. I wonder if helping the family members to make a plan for their care might be helpful, keeping in mind razz's suggestions to remember what it is you love about the person. Even from my current point of view, healthy, working, fairly frugal fifty-something, it isn't all that easy to think about making a plan for when I am ill, aged, or develop dementia....yet I have to do that. If I were ill then the need would be more immediate. But making a plan does NOT mean shouldering a burden; having the conversation in a helpful vein might alert family members to the fact (likelihood?) that the OP is not planning to provide their care.
But you can't have conversations like these when you are all charged up with worry and anger. OP, you got lots of good advice above....AlAnon is very helpful, even if the addiction is cigarettes (and oh, yes, that IS an addiction). It is about learning where you ARE responsible and where you are not.
I wish you well....this is a difficult space to traverse for sure.
CaseyMiller
1-27-13, 4:26pm
Sounds to me like the OP is worried about the future care for family members.
There is no "future" in this. The bad behavior and poor life decisions I am referring too has run its course leaving close family members in serious ill health and destitute. The addictions are no longer an issue for they are too ill and poverty stricken to pursue them. The perspective I am sharing is in hindsight only.
I'll reiterate that, had I accepted the obvious outcome of where it was all heading, I may have been far more vocal in displeasure with the bad decisions...especially at the beginning when there may have been an opportunity for change. I do understand that it would most likely have done nothing but alienate an entire family.
I appreciate the well wishes.
dado potato
1-27-13, 7:00pm
Casey:
You raised a very good topic for discussion. I join others in wishing you well. It may be (is!) trite, but "You win some and you lose some."
I keep some physical distance with family members who are addicts. To me, if they choose the behavior, they choose the consequences. I guess it sounds harsh, but it's not my responsibility.
This is the route I chose as well. I come from a family of addicts and alcoholics.
And yes, of course it's hard to do. No one said it was easy. But that's what Al-Anon taught me as well: That my life is as important as theirs, and that defending my own life's purpose is damned important. If I allowed all of the people who made bad choices in my life to affect my PRESENT life, it would simply be one more miserable person in the family.
People are allowed to make their own choices, and live the life they chose for themselves. It's not up to me to save them...it's up to whatever higher power they believe in. The time came when I was brave enough to say, "I love you, but the circumstances you find yourself in right now are the result of drinking yourself stupid for 30 years. I am not going to sacrifice my own chance at happiness to save you from your own choices."
Yeah it's hard. But that's the way it is. Nothing I could've said 30 years ago would've changed a thing -- such is the nature of addiction. You are not dealing with a rational, logical, compassionate human being. You're dealing with the monster that's running their brain.
I wish you well. This is a tough situation for any of us.
I've told my story several times before, but in brief -
My father was an alcoholic, who got dry through AA, after I left for college. Even though he's not had a drink in many years, he still exhibits the same behavior pattern ("dry drunk"), so I keep my distance. I moved 300+ miles away 17 years ago. It was a great decision. I've not seen the parents in 10+ years. It doesn't bother me at all. My life is much less stressful. Few phone calls, very occasional emails, holiday/birthday cards, that sort of thing.
So physical distance plus few phone calls/emails/letters can be a very good thing, depending on the situation. My quality of life has been the better for it.
Exactly the same here, Tradd. There is a reason why there are 500 miles between me and my nearest family-of-origin member. My life is much happier and more stable for it.
Yeah it's hard. But that's the way it is. Nothing I could've said 30 years ago would've changed a thing -- such is the nature of addiction. You are not dealing with a rational, logical, compassionate human being. You're dealing with the monster that's running their brain.
That pretty much sums up the nature of addiction. Sad but true. Until they choose to fight the monster in their thought, and they can learn how to when they are ready, all you can do is love what is good about them and step back far enough so that you do not get dragged into their madness and its consequences. You can learn how to do this as so many posts in this thread have suggested.
jennipurrr
1-28-13, 10:53am
If someone knew for sure that fifteen years from now they would have to provide intense care for a smoking parent ill with emphysema, of course they would be having very serious and on-going discussions about the need to stop.
I think where DH and I have gotten with this issue is that these are two seperate choices/decisions. We have said our piece with my MIL (lifelong alchoholic) and have long come to the decision that she will not change unless she wants to change. She is an educated woman who knows what she is doing to her body. She went through chemo for a year and that did not stop her drinking although all medical literature says she will die within 5 years if she didn't stop.
Since we cannot change her, we have to set our own boundaries. MIL is a grown adult who has the choice to damage her body. We are also grown independent adults who have our choice in how we react to it. For us those choices have been to not allow her to drink in our home (she hasn't visited us now in 3+ years), leave we are with her and she escalates to drunken outbursts (have had to do this twice), etc. We have conciously made the decision to continue to interact with her even though she is drinking - some people may have chosen a different decision there.
Deciding whether or not to support a relative is another one of these decisions. Fortunately, MILs long term boyfriend is financially well off so we do not have to make this decision at the time. However, I can tell you we would never have MIL live in our home, nor would we derail our own financial security to support her through an alcohol induced illness, etc. That is our decision. A number of others in DHs family also have substance issues and I am sure they would judge is handily...but it is our life to live, not theirs. You have to make a decision that feels right to you, free of guilt, etc.
You have to make a decision that feels right to you, free of guilt, etc.
And there, I think, is the rub. Not to cast aspersions on the OP, but many people have issues establishing and keeping boundaries -- much more so with family than with friends. My ex-wife's family suffered great dysfunction and sacrificed a lot of peace of mind and emotional security to believing that blood was always thicker than water, regardless of the behavior. Promises made many years earlier under very different circumstances were used against family members who, having grown up in that family culture, buckled, to their own detriment. It can be incredibly hard to say 'no' to a family member, even if you know what you're doing is going to hurt. Some folks are better at setting groundrules or determining what they can stick with than others. Not good or bad; it just is.
[EDIT] Not that I disagree with you, jennipurr. Just that I have seen the other side and the pressure there can be considerable.
Because we have a heroin addict in the family, all these questions are up for us. He's quite young - 21 - and could die at any moment by his use. That hangs over all of us. Of course, we will all die, and any one of us could also die at any moment by causes as yet unknown to us.... we just know one of his possible causes.
I have been an Al-Anon member off & on for three decades, thank goodness! I can in all clarity say that the only thing I can do to help my nephew is to love him as he is; an addict, and to keep very clear boundaries. I cannot save him, get him to stop, rescue him, take care of him.
Believe you me, I've fast-forwarded to the possibility of seeing him homeless and strung out on the streets of Seattle, and have wondered what I would do. Feed him? Give him money? Take him home with me? How could I not? Well, because none of those things would help him get well. They would only help me assuage my anxiety and guilt and grief.
My sis, who is housing, supporting, and enabling him, is also losing her life to his addiction. I've struggled to watch her, and tried to rescue her. I cannot. She's practicing harm reduction; she is also deely, inextricable co-dependent with him. She's managing her own anxiety and guilt as the mother of an addict by continuing to enable him. It's pretty amazing to see how she kept buying him expensive motorcycles that he then sold for drug money, and how shocked she is about the amount of money he has blown. She's stopped buying him things, but is still astonished when he steals from her to buy drugs. It boggles my mind. Her co-dependency is as destructive as the heroin is to my nephew.
She did call a rehab center last fall, and the young man who answered & had been in my newphew's situation, told her this: "If he asks for food, take him to a food bank. If he asks for clothing, take him to a clothing bank. If he asks for a ride, drive him to rehab." I wish she would do those things... But I cannot rescue my sis from her co-dependence. The only things I can do to help my family in pain is to stay clear in my recovery as a co-dependent, love them as they are, manage my own very profound sadness, fear, anxiety & grief about it all, and do not assume I know what is best for anyone other than myself.
I hope & believe that my nephew will enter recovery from his addiction. I hope he lives long enough to get into treatment. He just started with a therapist, which I hope is helpful to him. I hope my sis doesn't succumb from the stress of living with an addict who has already trashed her house and spent tens of thousands of dollars of her hard earned money. I hope I don't say or do anything that is destructive to healing our wounded family system. I hope I have the recovery, serenity, & courage to continue to love everyone no matter what...
Casey, you did the best you could under dire circumstances. Your family members will die, as we all will. They will likely die as addicts & as consequences of their addictions, it sounds like. You have choices about your own life, no one else's. You have choices about how much care you give to your elders. Nothing you could have done would have prevented them from having end-of-life medical impacts from their addictions. Nothing. If you choose to care for them, what can you do to offer this care free & clear of any resentment?
Your power resides in letting go of any lingering belief that you could have changed the way things are. I enourage you to get some loving support to process & let go of the grief, anger, sadness, regret; any of the strong emotions you have about this, so that you can simply love them for who they are, right now. That's really all any of us can do. Big hugs.
redfox, very well written. From one who has been there.
We can not see the light till we are ready as an enabler. One time many moons ago, I actually wrote down how much the first four years out of HS we spent "giving" 48 months= $60,000 in cars rent gifts medical= ENABLING. Sadly this went on 4 MORE years and I never put it on paper after that as it was too scary to face, but safe to say it was probably very close to another $60,000. The choice to free myself of enabling saved me as I was sinking as fast as my loved one. The several months private pay inhouse rehab/recovery/hospital seemed like a drop in the bucket as far as money.
This fable comes to mind,
The Scorpion and the Frog
A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion says, "Because if I do, I will die too."
The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown, but has just enough time to gasp "Why?"
Replies the scorpion: "Because it's my nature..."
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