View Full Version : VW Superbowl Ad
Its that time of year again.... I caught a blip on the Today show this morning. They were interviewing a woman who was up in arms about how racist a new VW ad is. I didn't see the ad until later when I found it here (http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_c4#/video/bestoftv/2013/01/28/exp-point-vw-mahoney-recut.cnn). Even more curious (or maybe not) is that the woman who was complaining was a middle aged white woman. I thought the ad was cute and happy and fun. I see nothing in it that is even remotely racist. Am I missing something? I also voted in the poll on the Today site (http://lifeinc.today.com/_news/2013/01/29/16751756-does-jamaican-flavor-of-volkswagens-super-bowl-ad-go-too-far) and as of that time only 7% thought it was offensive and 93% didn't. Some people just need to get a life.
I love that ad although I must confess that my wife drives that very car, although in black. It's a six speed turbo with a porsche like feel and when I drive it, I get happy mon.
I LOVE it! Thanks for sharing it. Makes me want to buy another VW Beetle! (we just sold the 2000 Beetle my daughter had since college--she had a hard time letting it go. Hope she doesn't watch the SuperBowl!)
Inoffensive but dopey, IMO. I wanted a red beetle years ago, and that one is very appealing.
ToomuchStuff
1-29-13, 11:44pm
Uhm, racist?
I am not sure I understand how this is racist? I would ask, the woman that called this racist, isn't it racist to judge how someone talks?
Personally, I think this is a long way to go, to get to the drug induced hippie culture that grew up with the bug (although my family is from the baby boomer, to prebaby boomer generation and WWII generation that had them).
And I have a 71 Super and don't do drugs. (alcohol is a drug)
It's racist because it stereotypes & mocks Jamaicans, with a white perception of Jamaican culture. I found it obnoxiously racist.
I LOVE it! Thanks for sharing it. Makes me want to buy another VW Beetle! (we just sold the 2000 Beetle my daughter had since college--she had a hard time letting it go. Hope she doesn't watch the SuperBowl!)
gosh well I guess that you are racist. Living in the epicenter of race politics as I do, I say: ok. whatever.
And I walk away from it. It's a waste of my time to debate anything in this arena.
ApatheticNoMore
1-30-13, 3:32am
Inoffensive but dopey, IMO.
+1
It's racist because it stereotypes & mocks Jamaicans, with a white perception of Jamaican culture. I found it obnoxiously racist.
I just didn't get that out of the commercial redfox, but would like to understand why it strikes you that way. The only person I kind of know around here that is from Jamaica (she owns a place where I eat lunch fairly often) thought the ad was funny. I've been to Jamaica several times and have a really hard time picturing any of the people we've come to know being upset by this ad. It'd be kind of like rednecks being upset with Jeff Foxworthy. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so they say. I certainly see imitation in the ad, that's kind of the point, but I just don't see mocking which, to me, is imitation with some kind of negative intent. If that ad promotes a stereotype at all I suppose it would be the 'don't worry, be happy' version of island life. I don't know about anyone else, but DW and I are always looking forward to the next trip to the Caribbean for the specific reason of that attitude being so prevalent down there. If not for that we'd just go to Florida.
gosh well I guess that you are racist. Living in the epicenter of race politics as I do, I say: ok. whatever.
And I walk away from it. It's a waste of my time to debate anything in this arena.
Do I believe that I am inherently better than some groups of people because of my race? No, I do not. Not at all.
Do I believe that we all bring unique cultural differences to the human table for each of us to appreciate and learn from? Yes, I do. If that makes a racist, so be it.
So if it was an ad featuring, say, a Finnish-accented character playing up the well-known Finnish reserve, would that be offensive? What if the Jamaican had been black? What do white Jamaicans sound like? The guy in the ad?
I'm mortally offended by almost all commercials aimed toward women--portraying them as dimwits obsessed with bodice-ripper romances and their delicate digestive tracts. Much worse than this light-hearted bit, I'd say. (Which has obviously had its intended effect, as we're talking about it.)
SteveinMN
1-30-13, 11:07am
Well, I'm from Minnesota and I'm offended.
Not all of us Minnesotans are that white-bread. :D:D:D
Speaking seriously, I guess I didn't see anything to get upset about here. I get why redfox objects to stereotypical treatment of a group.
But I guess I differentiate between negative stereotyping and positive stereotyping. I don't have a problem with a stereotype of a group that portrays them as easy-going and relatively unflappable. Are there problems in Jamaica? Sure. Is the Prime Minister of Jamaica addressing Jamaica's big problems that way? I think not. I would have a hard time with an ad that portrayed, say, all French as drunks or all Arabs as terrorists.
catherine
1-30-13, 11:19am
Hey, Steve, were you upset about the way that the Coen brothers portrayed you guys in Fargo? Just wondering.
SteveinMN
1-30-13, 11:43am
catherine, I was not.
In fairness, I've never seen the entire movie. But I've seen clips of it (especially the "dontchaknow" demeanor and accent) and I've seen plenty of other riffs on Minnesota (Garrison Keillor, who has spent practically his whole life here, does some of that best). None of them offend me.
Then again, I'm not a native Minnesotan. I was born and raised around New York City, where there were plenty of nationalities and cultures (even whole states!) to "offend". Noo Yawkers have their own stereotypes. Like I mentioned earlier, negative stereotyping is one thing for me; I'm also more okay with situations in which everyone ends up offended for one thing or another. Every group has foibles. It's a mark of maturity, IMHO, for someone (or several someones) to accept being the butt of an occasional joke and know that that does not represent every member of the group.
I found it quite light-hearted and silly, and I strangely found myself wishing I'd had someone with that outlook when I was living my corporate life ("Who wanna come with I?")
I probably helps that I know quite a few Jamaicans, including a few white folk who use the same patois, and I don't know that any of them would be offended. I did not see any evidence they were being made fun of or insulted in any way - just imitated by a well-meaning goofball. If we're going to take offense at this, we'd better take offense at every Caucasian in a commercial who uses hip-hop slang as well......and that's nearly all of them (KFC commercial, anyone?)
Gonna go put on Toots and the Maytals now.
ApatheticNoMore
1-30-13, 1:27pm
I guess one might be offended if one was a Jamacian with that accent suffering from clinical depression or something, I guess ... "I'm not happy!!!! I'm not fricken happy damn it, don't expect me to be, and I'm not easygoing either!!!" But really, since the portrayal strikes an *American* cultural ideal anyway, that offense lacks sting, even though it might be hard to live up to (especially of course in corporate America :~)). It's kind of like: "I'm not really great in bed dam nit, stop it with that stereotype!!!" It's the curse of unrealistic positive expectations.
http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/6687/offensensitivity.jpg
Gonna go put on Toots and the Maytals now.
A favorite of mine mon!
A few Jamaicans have left comments about the ad on Forbes:
We happen to find the ad quite amusing actually. VW and the subsidiarity companies are also among our favourite automotive brands. The ad is not racist at all and while our culture cannot be summed up as don’t worry be happy, it is the attitude of the average Jamaican in spite of that ails the country.
I think the ad is brilliant. As a black Jamaican, I’m very aware of the fact that Jamaican Nationality isnt tied to COLOUR. And our world renowned intangible infectious ‘Jamaican Spirit.’ I actually think American TV’s treatment of the discussion is more offensive than the ad itself
We love the VW ad. We are not insulted by it. Embrace your inner chill, people
"Embrace your inner chill". I love that.
Try replacing the Jamacian stereotype with the turn of the last century stereotype of a white male imitating a shuffling, watermelon eating, eye-rolling, subservient black "boy"; the classic minstrel black-face performer, and see how it feels to you. Put that into the TV commercial. That's an analog.
Try replacing the Jamacian stereotype with the turn of the last century stereotype of a white male imitating a shuffling, watermelon eating, eye-rolling, subservient black "boy"; the classic minstrel black-face performer, and see how it feels to you. Put that into the TV commercial. That's an analog.
No it isn't an analog. One has to do with race and negative stereotypes, while the other has to do with a cultural attitudes that are arguably positive attitudes. What if the majority of Jamaicans just happened to be Caucasian instead of Black? Would it still be offensive to you? What if the French did a spoof of Americans at a baseball game eating hot dogs? Would you be offended? You can't transfer the attitudes of whites towards blacks at the turn of the century to this situation. It just isn't the same, IMHO, mainly because it isn't about race.
It just isn't the same, IMHO, mainly because it isn't about race.
I agree, it isn't about race, but to too many people, everything is about race.
ApatheticNoMore
1-30-13, 4:00pm
Try replacing the Jamacian stereotype with the turn of the last century stereotype of a white male imitating a shuffling, watermelon eating, eye-rolling, subservient black "boy"
Yea but those aren't postive traits in American culture. Happiness is a positive trait in American culture, my goodness it's a religion in this country (and yet it's a very unhappy culture of course). Whether easy goingness is a positive trait in American culture is more ambigious, the whole commercial plays on the fact that everyone longs for that kind of easygoing type-B attitude or at least to know *other* people with that attititude! That's the fantasy it's playing on, and it is a fantasy (no a car won't get you there, it will probably take you in the opposite direction as it's a money sink - hello - debt ain't freedom). But of course drivenness, agressive steely pursuit of goals and so on (type A) is highly rewarded in American culture, is obviously more what it's really all about here. One might long for that kind of attitude, that kind of culture, meanwhile they contemplate whether to dare ask the boss to take the whole two weeks of their yearly vacation at a time, while they promise to take the blackberry with them so they can be reached if need be.
But of course I'm sure not all Jamacians are like that, it's stereotyping but with a positive stereotype.
ApatheticNoMore
1-30-13, 5:09pm
You can't transfer the attitudes of whites towards blacks at the turn of the century to this situation. It just isn't the same, IMHO, mainly because it isn't about race.
Also that was backed by a lot of structural prejudice. But structural discrimination existing against Jamaicans now? I don't think so. Sure all minorities may experience some prejudice still and some of that is structural, but there is no particular animus against Jamicians in particular in American society, no laws or unofficial policies to keep them down. That can harldy be said about turn of the century African Americans. Nerds and geeks are stereotyped, dumb white guys are stereotyped, I doubt it makes their lives easier (as unlike this those aren't even positive stereotypes!), but it's still seldom the cause for immense outrage.
No it isn't an analog. One has to do with race and negative stereotypes, while the other has to do with a cultural attitudes that are arguably positive attitudes. What if the majority of Jamaicans just happened to be Caucasian instead of Black? Would it still be offensive to you? What if the French did a spoof of Americans at a baseball game eating hot dogs? Would you be offended? You can't transfer the attitudes of whites towards blacks at the turn of the century to this situation. It just isn't the same, IMHO, mainly because it isn't about race.
It does have a lot to do with stereotypes - I seriously doubt a Jamaican white collar worker living in Minnesota would act that way. It was caricature.
I wasn't offended by the ad - but I could see how some people could be. Would it have been offensive if he caricatured someone African? Native American? French? Italian? Jewish? Korean? A woman? A gay man? Whatever?
On the amount of "outrage" - sometimes I wonder if this is "meta"-advertising. Intentionally. Get a commercial to go viral like this where it gets shown a zillion times outside of paid commercial time where everyone is talking about it, and even if you tee off a few people, you've hit a huge audience for a fraction of the cost.
Us white dudes can never be as cool and laid back as the great Bob Marley and his fellow associates, but I certainly don't mind if they portray us as wanting to try.
I wasn't offended by the ad - but I could see how some people could be. Would it have been offensive if he caricatured someone African? Native American? French? Italian? Jewish? Korean? A woman? A gay man? Whatever?
TV is rife with caricature. "The Big Bang Theory" gets its laughs at the expense of the social super-awkwardness of a bunch of extremely intelligent nerds. And, of course, their next-door neighbor is a pretty blonde (that always happens in real life...). Joey Tribbiani on "Friends" was a caricature. Offensive? Apparently most people didn't think so. Lots of standup comics -- Chris Rock, Jeff Foxworthy, etc. -- have made their livings and generated huge followings poking at their own "tribe".
Caricature does not have to be offensive, especially if the portrayal involves positive aspects of the person or group being caricatured. I cannot accept redfox's equaling the VW ad's portrayal of Jamaicans with the American blackface stereotype of the early 20th century.
Us white dudes can never be as cool and laid back as the great Bob Marley and his fellow associates,....
Lies.
http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/500/24052331/Johnny+Cash+JCash.jpg
TV is rife with caricature. "The Big Bang Theory" gets its laughs at the expense of the social super-awkwardness of a bunch of extremely intelligent nerds. And, of course, their next-door neighbor is a pretty blonde (that always happens in real life...). Joey Tribbiani on "Friends" was a caricature. Offensive? Apparently most people didn't think so. Lots of standup comics -- Chris Rock, Jeff Foxworthy, etc. -- have made their livings and generated huge followings poking at their own "tribe".
Caricature does not have to be offensive, especially if the portrayal involves positive aspects of the person or group being caricatured. I cannot accept redfox's equaling the VW ad's portrayal of Jamaicans with the American blackface stereotype of the early 20th century.
I agree. But it does not mean people don't take offense. Otherwise phrases like "gets its laughs at the expense of" would not apply.
It's not for me to decide what other people should and shouldn't take offense against. I find it interesting seeing people take on this role, though.
ApatheticNoMore
1-30-13, 5:53pm
On the amount of "outrage" - sometimes I wonder if this is "meta"-advertising. Intentionally. Get a commercial to go viral like this where it gets shown a zillion times outside of paid commercial time where everyone is talking about it, and even if you tee off a few people, you've hit a huge audience for a fraction of the cost.
Yea well if we have Chick-fil-A getting the anti-gay customers (and that really can have darker motivations), why not VW getting the anti-PC customer which is frankly pretty benign, because it's a commercial that most people will not think is offensive, and then will be told we're gastly racists for not picking up on some secret code whereby it is offensive (if you had only done a graduate program in the sociology of race relations you would have the secret decoder ring!).
TV is rife with caricature. "The Big Bang Theory" gets its laughs at the expense of the social super-awkwardness of a bunch of extremely intelligent nerds. And, of course, their next-door neighbor is a pretty blonde (that always happens in real life...). Joey Tribbiani on "Friends" was a caricature. Offensive? Apparently most people didn't think so. Lots of standup comics -- Chris Rock, Jeff Foxworthy, etc. -- have made their livings and generated huge followings poking at their own "tribe".
+1 Really if you want a nuanced, complex, unstereotyped, and deep view of life, Hollywood (especially t.v.) is not your friend, the ad agencies are not your friend. Stereotyping is their modus operandi, turning off the t.v. is your friend.
My husband and I both found it offensive. BTW.. We are both white and in our 40's.
My husband and I both found it offensive. BTW.. We are both white and in our 40's.
Can a Norwegian guy in his 50's ask specifically what it was about the ad you found offensive? And I suppose the natural follow-up question, offensive to who exactly? No snark, real question because I'm just not seeing it.
I agree, it isn't about race, but to too many people, everything is about race.
Sad, but true.
On the amount of "outrage" - sometimes I wonder if this is "meta"-advertising. Intentionally. Get a commercial to go viral like this where it gets shown a zillion times outside of paid commercial time where everyone is talking about it, and even if you tee off a few people, you've hit a huge audience for a fraction of the cost.
Being a skeptic I pretty much assume every new add is aiming for that goal. If true this one is pure genius.
I find it in poor taste and offensive to mock something that sets someone apart from others. If you mock an accent (doesn't matter what accent) even "in fun" you are not respecting persons who come by that accent naturally. It's not funny or cute. It's disrespectful. I guess what I offensive is the lack of respect and consideration. Yes I get the cultural reference they were using. That doesn't change how it hit me.
Side note:IMO a more effective ad would have been that guy being calm and collected in a harried office. Walking up to coworkers and calmly setting to right whatever they were stressing over: The copier that doesn't work, computer program giving them trouble, presentation powerpoint not working etc... "embrace your inner chill" in a high stress coorperate work world driving this car to work will make your day so much easier, peaceful and enjoyable. Yeah that would have been good.
No it isn't an analog. One has to do with race and negative stereotypes, while the other has to do with a cultural attitudes that are arguably positive attitudes. What if the majority of Jamaicans just happened to be Caucasian instead of Black? Would it still be offensive to you? What if the French did a spoof of Americans at a baseball game eating hot dogs? Would you be offended? You can't transfer the attitudes of whites towards blacks at the turn of the century to this situation. It just isn't the same, IMHO, mainly because it isn't about race.
Good questions. It is about race. And yes, is a racist society, race is always a factor to some degree. If it were a caucasian imitating another caucasian in the ad, I'd not find it offensive.
I do believe that understanding this perspective rests upon a clear definition of racism. The definition I have found the most useful is this: Racism is behavior that affects others deleteriously. It results from prejudice plus the power to act on that prejudice. On the individual level, between two people, if someone who is prejudiced towards me has institutional power to act on that prejudice, my life is impacted. It's at the institutional level that racism is most impactful, though it can also be at the personal level.
We live in a society that is structured upon racism, that is institutional prejudice plus power, over all people of color. At the individual level, one may have racial prejudice, but be powerless to act on that prejudice.
I find this ad racist for a few reasons. First, it's a public display, and is therefore institutional. Second, it's being displayed in a racist society where caucasians hold the institutional power, especially over blacks, but also over all people of color. Third, is uses the stereotyping of a black person in the form of a white person, in the context of a racist society, who essentially puts on blackface and dances with it. This ad references a long cultural history of blackface, in a different form.
Stereotyping uses both so-called positive and negative traits. In the Jamaican stereotype, it's "all happy, all good, 'mon' ". That is not real life, it's a one-dimensional view of an entire culture. Why is this bad? At the institutional level, holding this prejudicial view of Jamaicans can mean they're not viewed as fully human. When black people are not viewed as fully human, very deleterious things have happened in our history.
Race, including Whiteness is a social construct. Here is an essay on this matter: http://www.toolsforchange.org/resources/org-handouts/challenging-white-supremacy.pdf
In a racist society, it is only members of the dominant race that don't "see" race. Only those with the race privilege to not feel the effects of racism can claim it's not there. The images of racism that we all can recognize have been the extreme, KKK types buring crosses for many years. That is the rare example. The common, every day kind of racism is that which is done without thinking about it... Cops assuming that a young black man running is trouble. A loan officer assuming that a Latina has no credit and not even considering her application. The school principle who doesn't understand why the Jamaican father is so frustrated by his child's school, and is scared of this black man who isn't all "chill, everything is good, mon", and calls the police on him.
FWIW, on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the most egregious, I find this ad to be a 2.5-3. I never like any form of cultural appropriation, and I always am glad for an opporunity to talk about racism in the US. I think racism is our biggest public health threat, and I look forward to the day when it has been undone.
Here is a great resource for undoing institutional racism: http://www.pisab.org/
A different perspective on the ad: http://seattletimes.com/html/edcetera/2020245797_is_jamaican-themed_vw_ad_for_t.html
and +1 about Mr. Johnny Cash!
I'd have a heard time believing they could top the one with the little kid dressed-up as Darth-Vader.
I can't say for sure it was VW,at least I think it was,and not sure if it was last years game because
the Giants were playing and all that was impoprttant was:GO BIG BLUE!!!!!!
A favorite of mine mon!
I am of the belief that there is no dark mood that "Sweet and Dandy" can't puncture.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_St8Kbo4uwU
ApatheticNoMore
1-31-13, 2:05am
In a racist society, it is only members of the dominant race that don't "see" race. Only those with the race privilege to not feel the effects of racism can claim it's not there.
Not that that isn't pretty ambigious by itself and a category to fall in or out of depending on definition. I guess it's quite enough to blend into a crowd untracable in an utterly mulicultural environment.
IshbelRobertson
1-31-13, 7:03am
Well, am I allowed to say that I found Scrooge MacDuck, Scotty from Startrek and that strange bearded man from The Simpsons TOTALLY STEREOTYPICAL RACIST?!
(I have never watched The Simpsons, so I don't know the name of the character.)
redfox, I appreciate your thoughtful post and your concern about racism. Racism is a scourge. But by your own definition, I still don't think it applies here, and if the Jamaicans disagreed with me I'd really have to think harder about it. But it appears that they see it as funny, they appreciate that they are being recognized for having a wonderful joyful state of mind, and the Jamaica Tourism Board is happy to be copromoting with VW, so where's the "deleterious effect"?
So I think we should just agree to disagree, and unless I read that the Jamacains are truly insulted by this ad, I'm just going to embrace my inner chill.
Well, am I allowed to say that I found Scrooge MacDuck, Scotty from Startrek and that strange bearded man from The Simpsons TOTALLY STEREOTYPICAL RACIST?!
(I have never watched The Simpsons, so I don't know the name of the character.)
That would be Groundskeeper Willie.
IshbelRobertson
1-31-13, 9:52am
Thank you!
I remember my kids adoring that show when they were young. All i ever heard/saw was when passing through a room with a TV!
I find it in poor taste and offensive to mock something that sets someone apart from others. If you mock an accent (doesn't matter what accent) even "in fun" you are not respecting persons who come by that accent naturally. It's not funny or cute. It's disrespectful. I guess what I offensive is the lack of respect and consideration. Yes I get the cultural reference they were using. That doesn't change how it hit me.
Thanks artist (and thank you too, redfox). Really about the only difference in my take is that I didn't see it as mocking. To me mocking is a form of imitation used as a put down of some kind, a way to show another group as being inferior. I just don't get that from this ad. The imitator here is not portrayed as being inept or inferior in any way, just laid back and happy because he gets to drive a bug. In fact, he ends up being the guy the others follow. I can tell you first hand that such an attitude is common in the Caribbean and that it, if not the accent exactly, is infectious. It's kind of the whole point of going there and something every island, especially Jamaica, plays up big time in their own promotional material (http://www.visitjamaica.com/about-jamaica/culture-people-mainpage.aspx). The link is to jamaica.com's section about the people of the island. One part goes like this, "Don't be offended if on the streets you are called "Browning", "Redman", "Coolie", "Whitey", "Blacka" or "Miss Chin". It's the way we acknowledge and make light of our diverse racial heritage." If only the US could get over itself in that way...
If only the US could get over itself in that way...
White guilt won't allow it, and, IMHO, prevents MLK's dream that "my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character" from being realized.
White guilt won't allow it...
Hmmm. Interesting idea Alan, you may be on to something. Do you think its more that whites feel guilty or others tell them they should? I'm white and as much as I'd love to feel guilty just to fit in to a hipper crowd, I really don't.
Do you think its more that whites feel guilty or others tell them they should?
Shelby Steele has written extensively about this and suggests that white guilt has become the moral framework for American racial relations and reinforced through our educational systems, our government and our media. He argues that liberal whites initially embraced guilt for two reasons: to avoid being seen as racists and to embrace a vantage point where they could dole out benefits to disadvantaged minorities through programs such as affirmative action.
It's been a long time, but I remember reading several different essays regarding how various entitlement programs (like affirmative action) have had the net effect of holding minorities back. Some of the discussions centered around whether that was intentional or not, and if it was who was pulling the strings. I have known people who effectively worked to take advantages away from their own group rather than trying to provide them to another in order to 'level the playing field'. It made no sense, of course, and often left me with a lady-doth-protest-too-much taste in my mouth. I get much the same feeling whenever legislation attempts to regulate racial morality.
The funny thing is that when I first saw that ad the thought that it was parodying a black man never entered into my mind at all. I just thought that they were trying to rebuke the stereotype of the harried white middle mangagment officer worker as a frenzied workaholic on the fast track with a more laid back relaxed "dude" - not a black dude but a white dude with a Jamacian accent. So until I read this thread the thought of "Black" absolutely never entered my mind.
So what does that say: That those who see this ad and assumed it was a parody of a black man, and thus racist, must there for have a stereotypical pre-concieved idea of what all white male office workers must sound, act and look like. Also a stereotype of what all Jamaican men must sound, act, and look like - a reeefer smoking, dreadlock wearing Bob Marly look alike and black - but also what all BLACK man from Jamacia and elsewhere must sound, act and look like. So if you assumed it was a parody of a black Jamacian man and you have a preconcieved idea of what all black jamacian men look, sound and act like, then I call that stereotyping based on race, job, and lineage. I am sure that not all black jamacians fit that stereotype any more then a white harried middle manager looks, sounds or acts fits a certain stereotype dontchaknow mon :-)!.
ETA: this reminds me of the "Donna Chang" incident on Seinfeld which I saw last night. Everyone just assumed she was chinese because of her name and the many "chinese" stereotypical things she did, the way she spoke (slight chinese accent), etc... They were all shocked - and some appalled - when she was a blonde white girl instead.
So until I read this thread the thought of "Black" absolutely never entered my mind.
Spartana, as a member of the dominant culture that only exists in its position of power because of structural racism, of course *you* didn't see any racism. The very fact that you didn't see it shows you are racist!
There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's own safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane, he had to fly them. If he flew them, he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to, he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.
Spartana, as a member of the dominant culture that only exists in its position of power because of structural racism, of course *you* didn't see any racism. The very fact that you didn't see it shows you are racist! I guess I must be! Or maybe I just know some white dudes who work in offices that sound and dress like Jamacians. After all, I AM in Calif, where, like, ya know,like all of us are the same - Bubble head bleached blonde valleyt girls :-)!
Shelby Steele has written extensively about this and suggests that white guilt has become the moral framework for American racial relations and reinforced through our educational systems, our government and our media. He argues that liberal whites initially embraced guilt for two reasons: to avoid being seen as racists and to embrace a vantage point where they could dole out benefits to disadvantaged minorities through programs such as affirmative action.
I don't believe that feeling guilty is volitional; it is something one can recognize, choose to anayze, and step out of. I do think feelings of grief and sadness exist in all of us about racism and the state of race relations. Certainly no one I know thinks we're moving through healing the terrible damage done to people based upon their skin color. The data is clear that multigenerational effects of the trauma of slavery is still being felt in the African American community.
In my experience, many whites have been frozen by guilt and grief, and stuck in how to best to understand the roles each of us plays in keeping racist structures in place, & how to undo institutional racism. As I have explored my own internal assumtions based in race, largely learned before I had a cognitive filter in place to analyze what I was learning -- in other words, before I was around age 7 -- I have gone through several stages of understanding. The most important to me are these: I have a great deal to offer in undoing racism in our country, and the power to do so. By virtue of my unearned race & class privilege (I was born into both), I'm a gatekeeper, and can use that status as a way to open doors to others who don't have such easy access. I have an ongoing responsibility to this work to be aware of when I take refuge in my privilege, and think about who it impacts, and how.
Seeing race and cultural differences is very important as a condition of understanding others' realities. My Latino/a & Egyptian family members all love their mixed race heritages. Their multi-cultural background is a very important of who they each are, including their faiths, their dietary & religious observances, as well as how they are treated as brown-skinned people in a white dominated society, which is often as second-class citizens. Specifically, racial, ethnic or religious slurs being said to their faces, as well as other things I'd prefer to not mention. We do have a long way to go in our contry.
I understand Mr. Steele's perspectives that government programs have engendered dependency. Self-agency is an important quality to develop, and he believes that assistance deters this, a perspective I certainly share as a parent! I don't believe the data supports his beliefs that government supports have created dependency in the African American community, however. There is some pretty compelling data that food, housing, medical care, and education assistance gives the majorityof folks who receive it access to the middle class. As a biracial man, who, live Obama, grew up as a Black man, he has a very important life persepctive. I'm glad he's part of the national convo, even as I disagree with him!
An an anti-racist white, I recommend Tim Wise. http://www.timwise.org/
Also, if you're in the Seattle area, here is a conferenece that might interest you. I hope to go! http://www.whiteprivilegeconference.com/
Seeing race and cultural differences is very important as a condition of understanding others' realities.
Modern racism is practiced by those unable to look beyond race.
I also have a multi-racial extended family and look forward to the day when well-meaning, yet ultimately hurtful, people can learn to see them as people rather than a color.
Modern racism is practiced by those unable to look beyond race.
I also have a multi-racial extended family and look forward to the day when well-meaning, yet ultimately hurtful, people can learn to see them as people rather than a color.
I'm not sure I understand you... Race & color are different to me. Race, and more so ethnicity, encompasses the entire life experiences of the individual, and "seeing" this is also seeing and accepting the entire person. Color is simply skin color. I wonder if we're using the language differently from each other?
....Race & color are different to me........ I wonder if we're using the language differently from each other?
Perhaps not, but only if you didn't mean to say "as well as how they are treated as brown-skinned people in a white dominated society" and really meant "African or Middle Eastern people in a Eurocentric society".
The funny thing is that when I first saw that ad the thought that it was parodying a black man never entered into my mind at all.
Me neither - I thought it was parodying a Jamaican. It's such a small subset of "black" that it did not even occur to me.
It would be like saying a parody of someone Swedish is a parody of whites. It's not.
And I was thinking someone Jamaican might be offended - or someone who just disapproves of caricatures in general.
Perhaps not, but only if you didn't mean to say "as well as how they are treated as brown-skinned people in a white dominated society" and really meant "African or Middle Eastern people in a Eurocentric society".
Still confused, my dear!
Still confused, my dear!
Let me try to help you.
You declare something as racist, then make several references to "brown skinned people", "white dominated society", "white anti-racists", "white privilege", etc.
I lament the fact that people see color rather than people and you tell me that "race and color are different to me".
I think I'm the one who is confused.
Let me try to help you.
You continually make reference to "brown skinned people", "white dominated society", "white anti-racists", "white privilege", etc.
I lament the fact that people see color rather than people and you tell me that "race and color are different to me".
I think I'm the one who is confused.
Thanks, yes, I see how you're confused. And, I believe you & I have the same lamentation, and different approaches to it! Language is important. I so wish we could have this convo in person.
For me, color is how the complex experience of race is shorthanded in our racist society. Skin color is a fact. Brown-skinned describes a presenting feature of my relatives, and THE presenting feature they report feeling judged on by all but their most intimate friends, and even then, there are examples of friends holding assumptions based upon skin color & the racial signifier that it is in present day US. (Gender is next, then age.) Race is a social construct, and both the words 'race' and 'ethnicity' are used to signify the deeper life experiences of people in a society that is racist.
In my experience, "seeing" color & race can also be very positive. When someone "sees" my Egyptian/American niece's brownness & Egyptian features & asks her about her life as a biracial young woman in the US, she feels "seen" in all her complexity. When someone "sees" her brownness & Egyptian features and hurls a slur at her (usually 'go back home' and 'terrorist'), she feels threatened, profiled, often scared, and always furious. Color, race, & ethnicity are facts of a diverse world, and the varying viewpoints & life experiences behind these presenting attributes are valuable for us all. Including the many viewpoints of white folks.
Like Spartana and creaker thoughts of race or black or Ziegfield Follies blackface actors or slavery or little lawn jockies never entered my mind while watching the commercial. IMO there is no reason they should have.
Redfox, I'm not quite sure if you're saying guilt related to slavery is still being felt in the white community or not. The notion of white guilt stemming from slavery is ludicrous to me, probably because I don't feel even the slightest twinge of guilt about it. Why should I? I didn't enslave anyone. Neither did my father, grandfather, great-grandfather... Even if I did believe in the sins of the father stuff (I don't) once you get back four or five generations or more its time to let it go. The Romans enslaved some of my wife's ancestors, but she somehow manages to be comfortable around Italians.
The only thing crazier than that would be feeling guilty because I AM white. The idea that white people have some kind of inherent responsibility to do something because of the color of their skin blends seamlessly with the back of the bus mentality we so vehemently protest against. A mirror image, reverse-racism. I don't owe anything to anyone who is black, brown or otherwise just because I am pigmentally challenged. If someone needs help I will try to give it to them, but any obligation I might feel will never be based on the color of their skin.
The data is clear that multigenerational effects of the trauma of slavery is still being felt in the African American community.
Its easy enough to understand how it would take a race that were once slaves a long time to integrate into a society to the point of being 'equal' to the former masters. If you make an analogy to a foot race one group had a big head start so the other will have to run very fast for a long time to catch up. If the goal is for everyone to finish at the same point then it makes sense to offer shortcuts to the group who started out behind. Our society has lots of shortcuts available. Beyond any question I believe we should work to help anyone in our society who is disadvantaged, but I think it is a crock of s**t to tie any kind of assistance to race. To do that makes us racist in the purest form. In that sense our do-gooder government has done more to promote, extend and encourage racism than the sum total of all the confederate flag flying rednecks I can name.
Me neither - I thought it was parodying a Jamaican. It's such a small subset of "black" that it did not even occur to me.
It would be like saying a parody of someone Swedish is a parody of whites. It's not.
And I was thinking someone Jamaican might be offended - or someone who just disapproves of caricatures in general.
Yes. If the guy had spoken with a British accent yet said the exact same thing would we consider it racist? If he was a black guy looking like a Rastafarianj and spoke with a refined British accent would we say it was racist against the white British? I don't think so.
Redfox, I'm not quite sure if you're saying guilt related to slavery is still being felt in the white community or not. The notion of white guilt stemming from slavery is ludicrous to me, probably because I don't feel even the slightest twinge of guilt about it. Why should I? I didn't enslave anyone. Neither did my father, grandfather, great-grandfather... Even if I did believe in the sins of the father stuff (I don't) once you get back four or five generations or more its time to let it go. The Romans enslaved some of my wife's ancestors, but she somehow manages to be comfortable around Italians.
The only thing crazier than that would be feeling guilty because I AM white. The idea that white people have some kind of inherent responsibility to do something because of the color of their skin blends seamlessly with the back of the bus mentality we so vehemently protest against. A mirror image, reverse-racism. I don't owe anything to anyone who is black, brown or otherwise just because I am pigmentally challenged. If someone needs help I will try to give it to them, but any obligation I might feel will never be based on the color of their skin.
Its easy enough to understand how it would take a race that were once slaves a long time to integrate into a society to the point of being 'equal' to the former masters. If you make an analogy to a foot race one group had a big head start so the other will have to run very fast for a long time to catch up. If the goal is for everyone to finish at the same point then it makes sense to offer shortcuts to the group who started out behind. Our society has lots of shortcuts available. Beyond any question I believe we should work to help anyone in our society who is disadvantaged, but I think it is a crock of s**t to tie any kind of assistance to race. To do that makes us racist in the purest form. In that sense our do-gooder government has done more to promote, extend and encourage racism than the sum total of all the confederate flag flying rednecks I can name.
No, Gregg, I am not saying that white people feel guilty because of slavery. I am saying that whites often are stopped from understanding racism and our unwitting role in this pernicious system because of feelings of sadness & grief due to the obvious & daily impacts of racism. Is this so hard to understand? I certainly don't know anyone who is unaware of the way racism plays out in everyday life. It's all over the news, and I see it on my street all the time. Maybe there are some insulated whites who live away from people of color and really have no idea how racism affects all of our lives... Maybe the ignorance of how racism affects everyone's lives is still what dominates.
Read Tim Wise's work, if you care to learn more about how us white folks can help create an anti-racist world.
Here is a convo that took place on FB yesterday... it might give you some insights... in the frame of seeing race & racial experience, I include the race of the individuals posting. A small sampling of the lamentations I hear & read about every day.
From a middle aged Asian-American man...
"I loved living in Portland, OR, but living in more racially and culturally diverse New York is a gift to me in my middle age. I'm so much more relaxed, culturally more fulfilled, and generally less stressed out, irritable, and anxious.
I've always felt lucky in life and certainly felt lucky to live and work in Portland among so many great people. I just never really appreciated how much I was being affected by the little bit of dread I lived with in Portland, always managing anxiety, just under the surface, sublimated to subconsciousness. When white people constitute such an overwhelming majority, their dominance is maintained subtly, smugly, even upon themselves, and mostly beyond their notice.
The struggle over recognition of our diverse realities (what I think is at the foundation of many of our struggles across identities) is as real here as anywhere, but it's noticed, recognized, seen and heard. I feel less isolated, more sane.
I may one day return...in places like Portland, your friends are really, truly your friends, sharing an experience that is beyond words, mostly acknowledged in sidelong glances and knowing looks and in the particular way we shake off the struggle when we play. But, for now, I feel like I've come up for air after being underwater.
Taking a breath occasionally is highly recommended. It's good for the soul and improves one's vision."
A reply from an African American man:
"I wonder if you notice any difference between Seattle and Portland? I've spent more time down there and noticed a similar phenomenon, slightly more nuanced but no less pernicious. W.E.B. DuBois wrote that the cost of racial consciousness is a sense of unease that one will carry with them the rest of their days, as they realize in subtle and not so subtle discontinuities of this society that we live in. So, yes, finding respite with one's family and friends, or in the company of a good book, or in deep meditation can help to lighten the load.....Thanks for sharing your wisdom - I have lots to learn."
And from an African American woman:
"I wish I could share this on my wall...this is so well stated and I TOTALLY RELATE and would never move back there for that very reason. Virginia is not the most diverse place, but there are definitely different attitudes here and I can get to other cities fairly easily. I am happy for you, S."
Finally, I would ask that you consider asking some of the millions people of color & the poor, who have received benefits, to see what they think is preferable; assistance or rednecks flying the Confederate flag. I can imagine that having shelter, enough food, and an education is preferable, at least in my immediate neighborhood.
ApatheticNoMore
2-1-13, 3:46pm
Redfox, I'm not quite sure if you're saying guilt related to slavery is still being felt in the white community or not. The notion of white guilt stemming from slavery is ludicrous to me, probably because I don't feel even the slightest twinge of guilt about it. Why should I? I didn't enslave anyone. Neither did my father, grandfather, great-grandfather... Even if I did believe in the sins of the father stuff (I don't) once you get back four or five generations or more its time to let it go. The only thing crazier than that would be feeling guilty because I AM white
Agree about guilt. And I can perfectly well understand priviledge where I think it exists, but white priviledge only exists if your competing in a certain environment with certain signifiers. If you have all the middle class signifiers to pass as middle class, then being white might help you fit in all the more, just be another signifier. But tell me how "white priviledge" helps a poor white person in Appalachia, read this story and I dare you to tell me (I guess I am asumign most of the poeple are white, I don't really know). It's absolutely the systematic destruction and murder of a people on a par with most anything in American history (well I'm not going to take on slavery and Indian genocide here because that might be a bit much but it's comparable to much else that has been commited against minorities). Stuff we like to pretend in our delusions we are so far beyond now, because we're just so great and advanced and blah blah blah, lets pat ourselves on the back (really read it, it's a great very well written story):
http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/01/17/first-there-was-a-mountain/
No white priviledge there, and by the way the human race never really advances it just chooses new targets. But yes if you are competing in a very different environment in America for a middle class job say and have all the other middle class signifiers, race may help then, I'm pretty doubtful it's all about "white people" though as every environment I have worked in has been very multicultural, but there may exist prejudice against certain minorities and sure maybe you can't generalize to everywhere from southern california but .... still seems a bit more about class to me. And yes cops often are prejudiced against certain minorities maybe especially in certain neighborhoods. I don't have a problem with analyzing race in the criminal justice system which is plenty serious, just with going nutty about a dopey silly commercial that even many of the people portrayed don't have a problem with.
ApatheticNoMore
2-1-13, 4:03pm
No, Gregg, I am not saying that white people feel guilty because of slavery. I am saying that whites often are stopped from understanding racism because of feelings of sadness & grief due to the obvious & daily impacts of racism.
sadness and grief about systems they probably have not much more control over than minorities. That most powerful people are whites, hardly means that most whites have much power. I don't control the criminal justice system for instance. Now if they elected me king for a day .... The only control most ordinary people would have over such systems would be activism and that's definitely not a life for everyone.
Is this so hard to understand? I certainly don;t know anyone who is unaware of the way racism plays out in everyday life. It's all over the news, and I see it on my street all the time. Maybe there are some insulated whites who live away from people of color and really have no idea how racism affects their lives...
A lot of people prefer to live in professional middle class areas. I won't say "all white" areas, because I am totally in the wrong state for that. Maybe if I moved somewhere as white bread as WI (there are some minorities there of course especially Milwaukee, just you go to parts of that state and the 100% whiteness is like culture shock, but not wrong or anything (being white is not a sin), just very different is all). And they prefer to middle class isolate because they just prefer not to deal with the problems of urban poverty.
All whites have a degree of privilege in our society. Layering in class is important as well. For instance: if otherwise equivalent in age & gender, a white person and a person of color are stopped by the police, people of color fare worse. Black mothers teach their sons to not run. Think about that: It never occurred to me to teach my son to not run, ever. How incredibly difficult is that? Running black males are targeted.
I have invisible privilege that I take refuge in daily. Example: I walk into the department store, and assume I will not be followed by security; in fact, it never occurred to me that this might be possible. My black & brown friends assume they will be followed, because that's been their experience, even dressed as upper middle class women, and they grew up knowing that they would be followed. There are COUNTLESS individual examples of this. Our former black city councilman in Seattle was routinely pulled over by the cops. DWB is significant for a reason. DWW is not. Do folks here really need convincing that racism is a problem, and that white privilege is an actual phenomenon?
Like Spartana and creaker thoughts of race or black or Ziegfield Follies blackface actors or slavery or little lawn jockies never entered my mind while watching the commercial. IMO there is no reason they should have.
.I agree Gregg. While it is sort of unsettling to hear someone of a certain race speak in a way that is unexpected (remember the Asian guy from the movie Fargo? Oh ja, ya betcha ja do!) - it WAS unsettling, But it was unsettling because we had a raciest, stereotypical view of what an Asian man was suppose to sound like - and it was not like some white guy from North Dakota! Just as we have the racist stereotypical view of what the white office guy in the commercial was suppose to sound like - and it was not like some guy from Jamacia (and there the added racism of assuming that anyone who speaks that type of Jamacian MUST be black). And the fact that so many people just assumed that a white guy in an office would speak like...well an American white guy in an office instead of having another accent - and it could have been any accent. Or that they just assumed that that accent he had was not only Jamacian, but a BLACK Jamacian just goes to show that even those crying racism hold just as many stereotypes about how a person is expected to act, speak, and look based on nothing more then their race, ethnicity or outer appearance. Just shows how prevalent racism is in our society in even the most non-racist people.
ETA: I live in a Vietnamese community and at first it was very unsettling to hear those second generation Vietnamese-Americans who moved here from places like Texas and Louisiana (where they were born and raised) speak with deep southern drawls. But I realized it was my own racism and pre-conceived ideas about how vietnamese were "suppose" to speak that lead to that unsettled feeling. Now I check myself (and hopefully my racism) and try not to judge any book merely by it's exterior cover.
ApatheticNoMore
2-1-13, 4:32pm
Do folks here really need convincing that racism is a problem, and that white privilege is an actual phenomenon?
that it's a universal phenomena yea, because if a poor white person with no options signs up for the military and is killed in one of our wars (and there are plenty such in the military), that "priviledge" is not worth having, it's a priviledge so useless as to be utterly worthless, only if other ducks are lined up in a row does being white become a priviledge, so if you want to say if all other factors are constant being white might have priviledges above other races ok maybe (maybe because I'm not sure you can always even tell a person's ancestry that super easily by say looking at them in such a multicultural world - sometimes you can, sometimes you can't). Also I maintain that most whites as individuals have VERY LITTLE control over the actual systems of power in this country (we are the 99%?). I know someone who reminds me of the dude in that commercial only they aren't white, is it wrong and racist for me to be fond of them because I like that their spirit is that way?
Dr. King made the very explicit linkages between war, race, class, & poverty, in his Riverside Church speech. Now that we're celebrating Black History month -- and the end of white history 11 months -- listen to that speech! It's his best, in my view.
Dr. King made the very explicit linkages between war, race, class, & poverty, in his Riverside Church speech. Now that we're celebrating Black History month -- and the end of white history 11 months -- listen to that speech! It's his best, in my view.
If you don't mind...
A genuine revolution of values means in the final analysis that our loyalties must become ecumenical rather than sectional. Every nation must now develop an overriding loyalty to mankind as a whole in order to preserve the best in their individual societies.
This call for a world-wide fellowship that lifts neighborly concern beyond one's tribe, race, class and nation is in reality a call for an all-embracing and unconditional love for all men. This oft misunderstood and misinterpreted concept -- so readily dismissed by the Nietzsches of the world as a weak and cowardly force -- has now become an absolute necessity for the survival of man. When I speak of love I am not speaking of some sentimental and weak response. I am speaking of that force which all of the great religions have seen as the supreme unifying principle of life. Love is somehow the key that unlocks the door which leads to ultimate reality. This Hindu-Moslem-Christian-Jewish-Buddhist belief about ultimate reality is beautifully summed up in the first epistle of Saint John:
Let us love one another; for love is God and everyone that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. If we love one another God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
This is certainly a great speech.. My favorite is the Drum Major Instinct, but naming your favorite MLK speech is like trying to name your favorite child
Of course! That is the goal of anti-racist work, so we can all be free to dedicate our considerable talents and energies on global joys & concerns. Denying the present realities & impacts of race, as with all systems of discrimination, is counter-productive.
Here's a commentary from a friend & neighbor about race dialogue with whites. He is a well respected IT consultant who travels worldwide to set up complex systems. He experiences racism everywhere, and has related some pretty awful stories to me.
"I thought this story may resonate with you.
At one point I was in a band called Whisky Water. We played at a friend of the lead singers house repeatedly.
Each time we did, the guests, who after a while we knew by sight, would refrain from talking to me or to Ro.
I am black, and Ro is Asian.
When we brought this up to the lead singer, who is white, he got pissed off. And said we were calling his friends racists.
I countered with, no I am not calling them racists. I am saying that Ro and I are uncomfortable playing there because we got ignored.
The other member of the band, I like to call her the typical Seattle liberal lesbian.
Here response to what we said was this: My black friend Lisa, never said this so, it must be all in your head.
I tried again to explain that no one is taking about racism. I then said, that they don't talk to Amy either. (Amy is not a small woman).
Anyway, what I can tell you is that in my experience talking to white people about racism is a big mistake, and I try to avoid it at all costs.
Mostly because I am tired of being told my experience is unique, and its a problem with my perception. F that...
Anyway...just wanted to share the story."
- Gary M. Pope
(He was explicit that he wanted his name attached to this story)
"Mostly because I am tired of being told my experience is unique, and its a problem with my perception. F that..."
A variation of "you're too sensitive," the all-purpose response to any protest ever. (Has anyone ever heard the words "You're too insensitive" spoken? Thought not.)
No, Gregg, I am not saying that white people feel guilty because of slavery. I am saying that whites often are stopped from understanding racism and our unwitting role in this pernicious system because of feelings of sadness & grief due to the obvious & daily impacts of racism. Is this so hard to understand?
No redfox, it is not hard to understand. I simply do not and will not feel sadness or grief regarding racism. Those are emotions I reserve for relationships and do not apply them to social constructs. I DO feel acute disappointment that it is even an issue in our society. We can be better than that. But there are a myriad of injustices in our world and none of us can change them all. My preferred way to change the world is by working with kids. Sure, they are affected by racism (as you said, we all are), but also by pollution, crime, school lunches, poverty, dysfunctional families and on and on.
The people in your FB post were talking about feeling more comfortable when they were around more people who shared their race. It makes no difference what ethnic group you are in, you WILL feel that way. It is innate behavior and its hard wired into all kinds of animals for a reason. Nothing about that makes us racists. The Asian man in the thread felt anxious being a minority and so would the rest of us.
Finally, I would ask that you consider asking some of the millions people of color & the poor, who have received benefits, to see what they think is preferable; assistance or rednecks flying the Confederate flag. I can imagine that having shelter, enough food, and an education is preferable, at least in my immediate neighborhood.
Of course they would. But phrasing it like that creates quite the red herring, doesn't it? What I said was our government policies promote racism. They do. Is affirmative action not blatantly racist? I believe it is known as "positive discrimination" in the UK. Reverse is a better word. Either way, some of us feel that ANY kind of discrimination is unacceptable. I'm only surprised you don't.
Do folks here really need convincing that racism is a problem, and that white privilege is an actual phenomenon?
And Muslim privilege is alive and well in Pakistan (where my white SIL lives, btw). And Chinese privilege in Beijing. And Jewish privilege in Tel Aviv. And Mormon privilege in Salt Lake City. And certain privileges are enjoyed by the majorities anywhere humans live. Its just how behavior works. Go anywhere in the world where you're not in the majority and you'll see what I mean. I would love to be able to say that our species will someday evolve beyond that, but I'm not sure its true. That we keep trying is a good thing. That we pay attention to these conditions is a good thing. We're a young species so maybe in a few thousand more years we will get there (or we will all look alike and it will be a moot point).
White people suck! >:(
Some do. But that's true for any group.
Having watched the spot at least ten times now, I see where I'm diverging from everyone else I know who's seen it (none of whom found it racist, only dumb :) )
People who warm to the thought of someone spreading positive energy in an office situation would not be as likely to see the lead character as a mocking, insulting caricature. As I said, I would love this guy if I still worked in the oppressive cesspool that is corporate America. So no matter who he was trying to be, I wouldn't see it as insulting, because I warmed to the thought of someone walking around being happy and spreading it around. I detest whiny office groupthink.
If that kind of positive person annoys you, you're more likely to see him as a snotty construct poking fun at someone else's race/culture.
I still think it's childlike and mildly funny. But I am alone in that perspective! :D
Having watched the spot at least ten times now, I see where I'm diverging from everyone else I know who's seen it (none of whom found it racist, only dumb :) )
People who warm to the thought of someone spreading positive energy in an office situation would not be as likely to see the lead character as a mocking, insulting caricature. As I said, I would love this guy if I still worked in the oppressive cesspool that is corporate America. So no matter who he was trying to be, I wouldn't see it as insulting, because I warmed to the thought of someone walking around being happy and spreading it around. I detest whiny office groupthink.
If that kind of positive person annoys you, you're more likely to see him as a snotty construct poking fun at someone else's race/culture.
I still think it's childlike and mildly funny. But I am alone in that perspective! :D
That kind of person annoys me, but I didn't see him mocking anyone's culture. I'd hate to be in the next cube, but I might take a ride in his car.
Simplicity
2-1-13, 11:11pm
ummm.....what about the white people in Jamaica? Who planted the idea that this was about a black man? Caucasian Jamaicans don't have an accent???
ummm.....what about the white people in Jamaica? Who planted the idea that this was about a black man? Caucasian Jamaicans don't have an accent???
Yeah, that was my question a few pages back.
ApatheticNoMore
2-2-13, 12:05am
As I said, I would love this guy if I still worked in the oppressive cesspool that is corporate America
Remember, that oppresive cesspool is what you WIN if you PASS all the racial or age or whatever other criteria they might be using in hiring (criteria of which you will never know). It's the grand prize at the end of "white (or other) priviledge". Other prizes being not being imprisoned, not being poisoned (this is a class thing as much as a race thing, but environmental toxins are always dumped in poor areas like the article I gave etc.), kind of negative liberty if you ask me. Yea the dude I know it reminds me of a bit is not in corporate america (of course, in other news: pigs are not yet picked up by air traffic control).
ummm.....what about the white people in Jamaica? Who planted the idea that this was about a black man? Caucasian Jamaicans don't have an accent???
How inconvenient it would be if there actually was a white Jamaican!
I looked at Wikipedia at the beginning of this thread. There certainly are Jamaicans of European origin, along with other minority populations. All we need is a sound bite.
ETA: Is anyone offended by the Geico Gecko? He has an accent, after all. Pepe LePew?
I looked at Wikipedia at the beginning of this thread. There certainly are Jamaicans of European origin, along with other minority populations. All we need is a sound bite.
Here ya go mon! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwDgA9LUVMA) Or if you want the whole picture try this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojb9ZHPkqCM&NR=1&feature=endscreen).
How inconvenient it would be if there actually was a white Jamaican!And one of Irish decent as I thoiught Bobby McFarine was (the guy who sang "Don't worry, be happy"). Until I actually saw he was a black man I always pictured him as a white guy of Irish decent. Now who's stereotyping based on a name alone :-)!
Here ya go mon! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwDgA9LUVMA) Or if you want the whole picture try this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojb9ZHPkqCM&NR=1&feature=endscreen).
How dare that white Irish-looking guy insult the Jamaicans with that fake accent! ;)
Side note: People of Irish descent are reportedly the second largest ethnic group after African. You can almost see how the Irish accent could have melded with the local dialect to eventually become patois. Would be interesting to study.
That kind of person annoys me, but I didn't see him mocking anyone's culture. I'd hate to be in the next cube, but I might take a ride in his car.
He'd annoy me too but I also didn't see that he was mocking either a culture or a race. I didn't see anything at all to even indicate race. He was a white dude with an accent trying to make people relax. Irritating yes, racist no. However I did find it very racist to just assume that he was imitating/mocking a black man based on...well...nothing but his accent.
Remember, that oppresive cesspool is what you WIN if you PASS all the racial or age or whatever other criteria they might be using in hiring (criteria of which you will never know).
How depressing....
ToomuchStuff
2-2-13, 6:14pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6y0voUoeGE
So you could all wrongly be attributing racism, to a medical condition. So you all are prejudiced against someone sick.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUvdXxhLPa8
I can't agree with this any stronger. I have had some interesting discussions from high school (where the teacher let it go at risk to her job, but it was quite interesting), to my relatives (have white, black and Japanese relatives, and members who are prejudice against them). I don't think anyone here, is going to agree or change anyone's mind, and change can only come from within.
IshbelRobertson
2-2-13, 6:26pm
I dated a medical student at Edinburgh University. He was fifth generation Jamaican. He spoke with a Jamaican accent. He was white.
As far as I know, Anthony is practising medicine in his homeland. As are his four brothers, all doctors, trained at Edinburgh.
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