View Full Version : When is a massive expenditure worth it?
We are looking at new schools for our kids for next year. The school where they have both been for primary has serious management issues that also are affecting the quality of the classroom experience. There is also an ongoing issue with them being virtually the only native speakers of English in their respective classes, which means the level of instruction is not challenging them sufficiently. Local schools are not an option for a variety of reasons, so we need to pick from the assortment of private international schools. The school they have been in is at the absolute bottom of the price range. There is nowhere to go but up.
Dilemma: We visited one of the schools that is widely acknowledged to be one of the top schools in Beijing, if not in Asia. Wow. Seriously blown away. It would be a great environment for our kids, no question about it. The sticking point? It comes with a US$30,000+/kid/year price tag. Oy. DH gets a $10k/year/kid schooling allowance at present, but that still means a huge amount out of pocket. We could do it, but it would mean cutting back drastically on what we are putting into retirement and college savings. We have a solid amount built up already, but cutting back now would mean there is little to no chance we could retire early. It would also mean we were not saving anything above and beyond the reduced amount we could put into retirement. That would probably be fine -- we've got quite a substantial stash built up. but makes me nervous nonetheless.
We still have a few other schools to look at, including a couple where I have insider knowledge that substantial discounts are possible. We might end up going with one of those. But it is going to be really hard to walk away from this one, now that we have seen it first-hand. We had seen two other schools that we would have considered earlier in the day, but after seeing this one I don't think we could choose either of those with a good conscience. They are obviously inadequate in comparison -- would always feel like we had shortchanged our kids by putting them there.
As DH said as we were discussing it after the visit, it's hard to settle for an economy car when you've test driven the high end model. Wondering whether there are others here who have chosen to spend large amounts of money on top-end private schooling for your kids, and what your thought process was when making that choice. Or if there are other things you spend large amounts on that some people would see as an extravagent choice, but which for you are totally worth it.
I know a lot of people are probably going to respond with variations on "why don't you homeschool?" I would actually be interested in that if it weren't for the fact that 1) our visas are tied to my employment and it would be very expensive to do them independently, even if it were possible and 2) we can't quite afford our expenses on just DH's salary. I also REALLY like my job and it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to get back into it or find something similar if I were to leave. DH is not interested in being a SAHP/homeschooling so....
I am discussing with my employer whether or not we can restructure my compensation package to have some of what I currently get in salary go instead to an education allowance. There would potentially be a significant tax reduction to both me and the employer if we could work this out, but it is something that we need to discuss with headquarters. There is also the possibility that either DH or I could leave the non-profit sector and try to get upper management jobs in the private sector that would likely come with more robust benefits, including a bigger schooling allowance. That would be a BIG change and not sure I want to go in that direction. We could also think about selling our current apartment (which has appreciated nicely since we bought it) and moving some place less expensive. Wouldn't do that for at least another year, though, as we need to have owned for five years before we can avoid significant local taxes on the sale.
Nothing decided yet and maybe one of the other schools will turn out to be a good option at a less stressful pricepoint. Just wanted to throw this out there to see what SLF friends think. Are we crazy to even contemplate this?
IF you want to have a look at what 30k/year buys you in terms of private schooling in Beijing, here's the school website:
www.wab.edu
lhamo
As I see it you have three choices:
1. Put the kids in the expensive school. Perhaps you could reevaluate after a year.
2. Put the kids in school that doesn't cost as much.
3. Move somewhere (back to US?) where schools aren't that much.
I knew a woman years ago who was the daughter of a man who had skills that were much in demand abroad. However, it got to a certain point - I think when she and her brother were about high school age - that the schools in the country where they lived were no longer satisfactory to the parents, and so they all moved back to the U.S.
We sacrificed an immense amount to put my DSD into a private girls middle school. It was worth every penney we'll pay (second mortgage). Under her circumstances, it was the only viable choice. I come from the family value that a really solid education for our children is the most important investment we can help provide for them.
As DH said as we were discussing it after the visit, it's hard to settle for an economy car when you've test driven the high end model.
That's true, but in my experience, that "I want" goes away after a while.
I have not sent kids to private school, so I have no experience to help you there. I have spent way more than my share on my hi-fi and albums to play on it, but that's small potatoes compared to private school. But there are a couple of thoughts which come to mind:
- How comparable are the school curricula? Could you start the kids in "BMW School" and then, if they had to transfer to "Chevy School", would there be issues in expected knowledge, etc.? How well would your kids handle such a transition?
- Where do your children fit into this? There is a lot of chemistry in an educational setting that goes way beyond how many advanced degrees the instructors have and what percentage of their students go on to Ivy League universities and whether the microscopes are this year's model. Certainly the school your children now attend is not meeting their needs, but can their needs be met with a school that may not be at the top of the heap, but lies in that direction, and at which your kids are truly engaged and energized? When do they get to examine the curricula and meet some of the people who will be teaching them?
- Culturally speaking, how well do you think your kids will get along with other students at a new school? Will one school be more welcoming to them than another? Will their schoolmates be somewhat like them or will they be the country cousins in the big city?
A massive expenditure on tuition is of little value if your kids are not happy and engaged at whichever school they attend. Some pretty pedestrian schools have educated some world-changing minds and some of the best schools in the U.S. turned out people patently unfit for their jobs. I would urge that you give the other schools on your list a fair shake. You may not be shortchanging your kids to give them a more appropriate learning environment -- or to make your financial future more secure.
Once again, I have written a book. My apologies. :)
$40,000 annually out of pocket for the next X years? And then, college? I'm guessing that would be about $350,000 total approximate.
No. Just--no. Find something small and simple and geared to your children that they like. You could hire an earnest young tutor at half the price, I would think. Who would their peers be? Do you want your children to absorb those values?
jennipurrr
2-9-13, 10:10am
Did half of this thread disappear?
ApatheticNoMore
2-9-13, 11:10am
I think a lot of threads disappeared when the forum was wonky.
jennipurrr
2-10-13, 6:05pm
I think a lot of threads disappeared when the forum was wonky.
Ohh ok, I totally missed the wonky-ness.
awakenedsoul
2-11-13, 1:36am
I'm sure it's a beautiful, impressive school, but that sounds like a huge amount of money. Suze Orman spoke at an Oprah event that I attended recently, and she made a point of saying that she went to public school in a poor area of Chicago. She attended college in Indiana, (I believe,) and she was a "C" student. She's very wealthy and successful now. She feels parents are jeopordizing their future with these expensive private schools that cost as much as a college education. It sounds very extravagant to me.
I would focus more on developing the inner qualities of success in your children. Many parents don't realize how much the home life affects students. If they have good discipline at home, they will have that in their studies. Being well read, attending theater, listening to classical music, getting plenty of exercise, and learning to work well with others are all skills they can learn anywhere. My father wouldn't let me attend private school with my best friend. He felt the money was better invested in the stock market, and that I should learn to get along with all different types of people. He could have easily afforded the school.
As a teacher, I've noticed that some children at private schools can be very bratty and spoiled. I taught some rich girls in Lenox, MA and also in Santa Monica, and what they really wanted was more attention from their parents.
I'm sure it's a beautiful, impressive school, but that sounds like a huge amount of money. Suze Orman spoke at an Oprah event that I attended recently, and she made a point of saying that she went to public school in a poor area of Chicago. She attended college in Indiana, (I believe,) and she was a "C" student. She's very wealthy and successful now. She feels parents are jeopordizing their future with these expensive private schools that cost as much as a college education. It sounds very extravagant to me.
I would focus more on developing the inner qualities of success in your children. Many parents don't realize how much the home life affects students. If they have good discipline at home, they will have that in their studies. Being well read, attending theater, listening to classical music, getting plenty of exercise, and learning to work well with others are all skills they can learn anywhere. My father wouldn't let me attend private school with my best friend. He felt the money was better invested in the stock market, and that I should learn to get along with all different types of people. He could have easily afforded the school.
As a teacher, I've noticed that some children at private schools can be very bratty and spoiled. I taught some rich girls in Lenox, MA and also in Santa Monica, and what they really wanted was more attention from their parents.
This is very sound advice. Many children thrive in really poor teaching areas due to strong parental involvement and values sharing. Too much emphasis on a particular setting rather than the actual child'e efforts and initiatives gives a dubious message for kids, IMO. "You succeeded because you went to ???? right school" vs "you have access to wonderfully adequate resources right now and with strong family support to guide you as needed, you can be whatever you make up your mind to work for."
I have taught in independent schools for many years. Except in unusual circumstances, I truly believe that this is more often a "want" rather than a "need." Limit screen time in your home and you will automatically get at least a 30% improvement in thinking, concentration, and creativity. Model and structure time for sustained silent reading and you will get at least another 30% learning value. This sounds glib, but it takes a lot of commitment from the family and it works. If your children are emotionally well adjusted to the more reasonably priced schools, then they will do fine with that plus a home that values hard work (THEIR hard work, THEIR effort) and kindness and reading. Do NOT spend so much of your resources on pre-college education unless you have a very particular reason that one or all of your children have defined specific needs for it.
Ihamo - I don't have kids so take this with a grain of salt - but I think you first need to decide what your end goal is. Are you wanting a better, and more expensive, school for your kids because you truely feel the other private schools are very sub-par educationally and your kids will be better educated and well rounded if they went to a more prestigious school? Or do you think that a "ivy league" elementary school will open more future doors for them educationally and job wise? If it's the latter, then you have to ask yourself if that is the future your kids will even want. Will they want to go on to higher education that requires expensive private elementary schools in order to get in? Will they even want those kinds of professional jobs in the future or will they want to be artists or plumbers or comic book writers? I know parents often envision a future for their children, and go far above and beyond their means to ensure that future vision, but often times it isn't want the kids want for themselves. I know of soooo many people who paid huge amounts of money to get their kids in the "right" schools and the "right" activities, only to be disappointed and saddened that their kids didn't do anything the parents envisioned for them with that education. My ex-Dh and his 3 sisters came from Ivy league educated Phd educators who put extreme value on their kids educations. Often to to the point of harsh financial struggles for the family. So all the kids had great (and costly) private school educations, all of them went to private colleges, and all of then chose not to use that education in their careers. Hubby, who went to Hofstra U in NY, joined the coast guard as an enlisted person. Of his 3 sisters - one joined the Marines and later became a sheriff, one is captain of a large commercial vessel, and the other is a starving artist. The parents spent a large fortune to educate their kids - leaving themselves with little for retirement - and often bemoaned the fact that they sacrificed and did it all for naught. So if you really feel that a more expensive school is much much better educationally for your kids, then it's probably worth the money. But if you want it just to give them a better stepping stone in the future, you may be better off with a good, but not ivy league, private school because you really never know what they'll choose to do with their lives. And if they didn't go to the expensive school, you could save the extra money to help them with whatever their future plans might be - be that college, a start-up business, or a kick :moon: electric guitar for their newly formed rock band :-)!
Sorry for my silence lately --- things are basically shut down here for the lunar new year holiday, so we are in somewhat of a holding pattern. DH and kids are staying a few extra days with my inlaws to follow up on some medical stuff for my FIL (needs new glasses and dental work), so we won't be able to make more school visits for awhile yet.
thanks to everybody for the thoughtful input. Let me try to clarify a few things.
1) The Beijing schooling situation is highly unique. Local schools can be good if you get in the right one, but that typically requires significant bribes and is not a route we want to go. The Chinese education system is one of the most high-stakes-test centered in the world, and does not encourage creativity or independent thinking. The national curriuculum is also EXTREMELY nationalistic, even xenophobic -- DS came home from kindergarten once very proud of the pictures he had drawn of him in a fighter jet slaughtering some Japanese. We did try a local school for DS in first grade, and it was a disaster. 2-3 hours of homework a night, all rote repetition, and he was developing visible physical and mental stress symptoms. So local schools are not a viable choice for us.
Private schools fall into two main categories. 1) "Proper" international schools that are accredited and generally run more or less professionally by people with appropriate experience and knowledge, with variation in degree of professionalism and experience that maps pretty closely to price. These typically target primarily the expat population and most have limits on the number of second language learners they will accept in each class (typically no more than 5 out of a 25 person class) and 2) A burgeoning number of private schools that accept foreign kids but that are really marketing toward the newly rich Chinese who have the intention of sending their kids overseas at some point. They often teach primarily in English but have an extremely high percentage of non-native speakers. They are typically less expensive, but often run very unprofessionally, at least by foreign standards. Ownership is usually Chinese, and there is very little effort made to foster a feeling of community at the school. Teacher turnover is incredibly high.
Our kids' current school falls into this latter category and while they have done OK with it so far it is clear that they are not being sufficiently challenged and that continuing to keep them in this environment is probably not going to allow them to fulfill their full academic potential. DS in particular has been bored stiff this year, and his enthusiasm for school is waning quickly. thankfully he has started teaching himself to program in C++, which is keeping him occupied. School is pretty much a placeholder for now. DD is at the top of her class academically and her teacher doesn't really know what to do with her. Her class is full of rowdy boys and the teacher can barely manage them, much less provide DD with extra guidance and support. We could probably keep her at the current school for another year or two, but I think we are shortchanging her if we do so. DS definitely needs to change schools as the middle school program at the current school is totally inadequate.
I have considered homeschooling but right now that is not the route we want to take. DH and I both work full time, and DH is very skeptical about homeschooling and would not be the homeschooling parent. We also would not be able to support our current lifestyle with just one salary. Hiring a teacher is an interesting idea, but there are practical obstacles that make it a challenge here (namely how do you arrange a visa for someone?).
2) While the school we are excited about is obviously one of the top schools in the city, the prestige/ivyish aspect of it is not the main thing we are attracted to, at least not me. It really is the educational philosophy, which I haven't seen in any other school we have visited. I don't really care if my kids go on to prestigious colleges in the US -- in fact, I am kind of hoping that DS's programming is going to take off and he'll choose to start his own business before going to college. I think he would benefit from having some real world experience before going to university, if that is the path he wants to take. that being said, I do want them to have a good educational experience now, as I think that is very important in terms of laying the kind of foundation they need to succeed later. I want them to be in an environment that encourages them to think critically, tackle big problems, and have a solid ethical framework. So far of all the schools we have visited I think this one is the most likely to provide that kind of environment.
3) Financially this would be a stretch for us, but we could manage it. We would likely have to cut back a bit on what we are putting into retirement and college savings, but as that is already around 30% of our income we have quite a stash built up already and should not be doing serious damage to our long-term financial health. We have a significant asset in our current apartment, which is now worth well over double what we paid for it -- selling that alone would propel both DH and I into a pretty cushy early retirement.
At this point, we still have a few more schools to visit, including one that I know has offered very substantial discounts to people in the program I work on. It has been good to let the glow of the visit to the other school die off a bit -- I think that will help in terms of making a more informed/rational choice.
I am also seriously considering taking the Foreign Service Officer exam. Entry level salary for someone with my level of education and experience is slightly more than I currently make, plus you get significant add-on benefits like fully-funded schooling, annual home leave, and a ridiculous level of cost-of-living differential and hardship pay for a posting in Beijing. Oh, and housing is covered, too -- they would pay our mortgage if I was posted to Beijing. The main sacrifice would be giving up some of the stability we have in our current life and moving to a situation where we were moving around the world every 3-4 years. But maybe that isn't a bad thing. With my level of language skill in Chinese I would be a competitive candidate for greater China postings, so if we could string a few of those together it wouldn't be so different to how we have been living. I don't know -- need to discuss it with DH and see if he is open to it. And then need to pass the test, pass the oral assessment, and actually get offered a job. We'll see.
thanks again for serving as a sounding board for all of this. I know this probably seems like a crazy choice to many, but then again so might living overseas for over a decade, and it has worked out pretty well for us. We'll see what happens down the road.
lhamo
awakenedsoul
2-15-13, 9:42pm
Thanks razz. I was listening to Dave Ramsey on the radio yesterday, and a lady called in and asked him what percentage of your income you should spend on private schooling for your children. Some parents are spending 50%! He answered that it depends on your income. I believe he mentioned that $10,000. a year if you make $100,000. a year was okay.
rodeosweetheart
2-16-13, 5:40pm
I believe he mentioned that $10,000. a year if you make $100,000. a year was okay.
A couple of thoughts--one, this can't be right, because if you make 100000 a year, you are not seeing anything like that after taxes, and with two kids, that is 20000, but I guess it would always depend on your income.
Two, the folks I know with kids in expensive private k-12 schools are often receiving money from their parents, the children's grandparents. I would not be comfortable with that, but it is what I have seen.
Three, the school situation in Beijing sounds frankly awful. I really like your idea of the foreign service exam--what a great idea that covers many problems. I also thought you might work at a school and get free tuition for the kids, but the foreign service sounds far superior.
Four, I did send one child to a very expensive private school for a semester and it was horrendous--at the time, I felt I was doing the best thing for him but homeschooling would have been far better. I withdrew him, could not get tuition back--God knows what permanent damage was done, as he never ever made a good adjustment to school after that and in fact was the only child I had who dropped out of college.
We did Catholic school one year and that was great. But not expensive.
Admittedly, I have a public school bias as that was where I went, and I did very well in college and graduate school and went to one of the most competitive colleges in the country. I was no worse for public school, and from what I saw of the social scene of the prep school kids, always wanted something more democratic for my kids.
But your situation sounds pretty tough, and I would be thinking of the bigger picture, because you are very right, it is really important that your kids be happy in school, and the current situation does not sound like it is working that well.
Maybe come home to US for a while, until they hit college, and then go back?
Or hit that foreign service exam!
We are looking at sending our DD to private school also. Our zoned public school isn't great and isn't improving either. We've thought about moving, but financially it wouldn't make much difference. The high school in our area is fine, so is the junior high. We've run the numbers a million times and are comfortable with the sacrifices. The tuition will be a big chunk of our modest (below median) income. We won't be living extravagantly for the next 6-10 years, but that's OK, since it won't be that much different from the way we currently live anyway. DH and I are not status chasers, but I do firmly believe in challenging children, especially academically. If their current school is not challenging, I would find one that is, even if it's more expensive.
ETA: my answer would be different if you weren't financially sound. I don't believe in sacrificing *everything* for the kids, but if you can still manage, I would do it. If you can find a comparable school that costs less, even better.
You folks are intelligent and can easily supplement your kid's education. Right now I have two kids in college and it is expensive. You should be putting that money away for college. As intelligent, educated parents, you can easily supplement their education with field trips, reading, library, mini-lessons, videos, etc. Forget the private school and save for college and your own retirement.
You folks are intelligent and can easily supplement your kid's education. Right now I have two kids in college and it is expensive. You should be putting that money away for college. As intelligent, educated parents, you can easily supplement their education with field trips, reading, library, mini-lessons, videos, etc. Forget the private school and save for college and your own retirement.
That was running through my mind, too. I'd never leave it up to a school alone. (Easy for me to say.)
The best schools will provide a smart, motivated, conscientious student body from which your children can choose friends who may last a lifetime. Peers--for good or ill--will soon have a major influence on the outcome of their lives, if this article can be believed:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=parents-peers-children
The best schools will provide a smart, motivated, conscientious student body from which your children can choose friends who may last a lifetime. Peers--for good or ill--will soon have a major influence on the outcome of their lives
I remember writing a paper way back in college on schools. How much money you spent didn't have much effect. The best predictor of success was the socioeconomic peer group.
If I were in your situation I wouldn't let the cost stop me if I thought it was clearly the best option.
I was really interested in your reply, Ihamo. The situation you describe is very specific and I see that your reasoning for considering the more expensive private schools is sound. I have followed your posts off and on for a while and I sense that you and your husband have a lot of financial stability, so this would not be the kind of all-out sacrifice it could be for others. The lack of behavior control in the classrooms that you describe is particularly troubling. In light of the detail you've provided I'm modifying my previous response. I think you have good reasons to spend some money on a better quality private school. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
Update: We finally had a chance to visit the school that I know has offered substantial discounts in the past. Good news -- we loved it! DH actually likes it quite a bit more than the other school we were swooning over. I think both would be good places for our kids, but this one does have things I like -- for example a stronger focus on all-around achievement with good systems in place for child-directed goalsetting and monitoring, as well as a VERY strong focus on manners and politeness which was very much in evidence throughout the school among both staff and students. It's British :) That plus the likely lower cost has us leaning very strongly in this direction. Only real downside is it is WAAAAY out in the expat suburban boonies, so kids will have a long bus ride. But not THAT much longer than to the other school. And if it turns out to be a good fit we could consider moving closer (though that would make my commute even more hellacious than it already is).
If we get the kind of discount we know has been offered in the past it would cost us about 50% less out of pocket than the other school, which is major. Brings the cost to within range of what we are typically able to save every year anyway, so we would not have to cut back much if at all on retirement and college savings. Would mean tabling the goal of getting to within mortgage payoff range in the next few years, but we are paying down the mortgage at a good clip just with our regular payments so we would eventually get there.
I've been very anxious all week waiting for this visit and worried that DH wouldn't like this school and would insist on the other one, so this is a very pleasant turn of events. Still no guarantee we will get a discount -- admissions director has to take it to the board. But she did say that if it were up to her she'd let us come for free. Now THAT would be nice. She's the wife of the head of school so she may have some pull. Fingers crossed! Need to complete and submit the application and see what happens...
lhamo
That's great news for you and your family. I hope it all works out. Don't worry about the bus ride, it's just more time for them to get their homework done :)
Sounds perfect! Thanks for the update!
fidgiegirl
3-22-13, 8:40am
So great to come to closure on a big decision. Congrats!
What good news--love it when the stars align!
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