View Full Version : Dying Broke
After having some major financial set backs over the years (An ex wife that cost us $20,000+, another $12,000 in life handing us the stink end of the stick and $15,000 in misc costly mistakes), I have just made peace that I am going to die poor. I work hard and am frugal, put a little away but I figure I will never be financially free. And I am ok with it. I don't expect anyone to take care of me financially but I am not going to stress about it either anymore. I have made my way the best I can. I have decided not to go back to school to get my Masters. The financial burden, time, stress, etc. does not really provide me any financial gain. I am also not going to pursue a job just for the $$$. It is SO not worth my health. I have been out of work 2 weeks, I have lost 15 lbs, sleep every night and have had time to enjoy some forgotten hobbies. I do not depend on nor expect any inheritance from parents (They are being bled dry now by sis and bro) and I don't think what is theirs is rightfully mine. Never have. So, my money life is what it is and I just want to be happy. I am tired of worrying because it is so unknown. Just going to do my best and enjoy everyday.
You know, I think that's just fine.
I also will say that -- at this point -- it's very likely that you can do work that you love and enjoy that doesn't bring stress but does bring income if you want to and without the costly (in time, money, and stress) degree. If you want some help brainstorming about that, I'd be happy to toss ideas around.
I'm still quite young, so many miles to make things up. I don't know how it's going to pan out, but at least i'm living my life my way and happy as a family of clams. :D I totally am for 'making your own way' -- in every way, not just a financial idea.
Thanks Zoebird. I did just get my Notary. I don't think it will make me load of $$$$ but does help in my career field. I also belong to 2 different professional affiliations and I maintain my certification through them. They have different webinars and what not, Yes, they cost $$$ but sometimes work pays for them. I will email you.
Thanks. <3
MamaM, I feel your pain. I'm like Scarlett O'Hara because there are certain things in my past that I refuse to look at: (I'll think about it tomorrow--tomorrow is another day)
The 2000 decade was not really great to me financially. I was VERY lucky in the sense that I went out on a limb and worked hard at my job and did really well at it, but due to a) Fate and b) Stupidity (with a capital S), I wound up with most of my earnings being swept away like whitewater down a rapid.
I cosigned away about $160k of loans in 2004-2006 that I had no vested interest in. But the person I cosigned for defaulted.
I cosigned for a mortgage for my dear MIL, thinking we would sell her primary residence very quickly--that was in the fall of 2007 haha. We JUST got an offer on it this weekend, but in the meantime it cost DH and I a combined total of $125000 since 2007.
Because MIL steadfastly refused to pay operating expenses for one full year (in 2008), I thought I had no choice but to liquidate my 401k when it was at its VERY LOWEST. Cost of that stupid move: about 75k.
Because of the above, I have had no money to save up--I've been steadfastly paying debts incurred in all this: $4500 a month. Just last year I put away the max in an IRA to start the savings up again--$6,000. So that's what I have to my name at the moment. Of course, I do have a LITTLE equity in my house (probably $50k) and also half DH ownership in his BILs house (not legal however--I'm just trusting that DH is not going to run away).
I'm 60. So my strategy is to work as hard as I can for the next 7 years to pay off the mortgage--that's the main debt I have left. Then use the next 7 years to save up what I can. By that time, I'll have the highest level of SS and Medicare. I'm also lucky in that I'm very healthy--not an ache or a pain or any chronic condition, not even high blood pressure, knock on wood.
If all goes to plan, I'll be fine. But you know what, if it doesn't go according to plan exactly, I'll be fine,too. Who knows what life is going to bring. I still believe that things work out. There is no sense in worrying about it--at least that's what the Scarlett O'Hara in my head is saying to me.
ETA: Don't say you're going to "die poor"--it's sounds so self-defeating. Dying broke sounds a little better but not much. Put your head in a more prosperous mindset, no matter what the reality. You can accept prosperity on a lot of different levels, and it doesn't have to mean a lot of money in the bank. Be prosperous in life and love.
I read something way back when ... A man said he wanted to die with only a few dollars to his name, because he wanted to give his things away as he got older. He considered that as success. The trick there is predicting the timing ...
Thank y'all.dying broke. :) The good thing is right now, I just took a huge chunk of change and paid off all our debt (minus mortgage). At least I don't have that hanging our my head. Equity is our house is small right now since we have only had it a year.
I think part of it is I come from a family on my dad's side that emphasized how much money you had and they also had "things" in their homes to prove it. What jobs I did were never enough and that someday I needed a career (This coming from a mother who spent her whole life at home, not saying that's a bad thing but don't preach it until you try it) I am SO the opposite of that. I have held jobs in the military (grateful for free health care) and I did odd jobs on the side but I am not going to kill myself with work anymore. I have a number I need to make in order to live simple and keep the food on the table, lights on and a warm bed under a roof. That's really all I need.
This is all coming up too because I am really thinking about my life. I have met these wonderful women, y'all here on these boards and I am just soul searching. My dream is to move to a small cottage near the beach, always has been, always will be. So what would it take? What would I "sacrifice" to do it? (Though I see no sacrifice because I don't need much) Life is too short to live with regrets.
I have an Aunt who was married to a farmer for 40 years. She divorced him a few years back. She was tired of struggling. She moved to Florida, into a tiny trailer, got a job at a nursery and now plays golf weekly. She has dropped 85 lbs and she is happier than a clam. But she wishes she had done it sooner.
What tugs at me and maybe this is a good start to another post, can I make that life a reality? Dealing with naysayers, telling me my head is in the cloud..etc...but that is another post. :)
The job I just left was the highest paying job I have ever held but it WASN"T worth the expense of my health.
I am only 38, so I do have time to turn things positive but I have just made peace that I will die broke but I will enjoy my life until that day..
Tammy :)
Good for you MamaM - you sound like you need to take some time out to recover your health and then take a look around at what else life has to offer and how to make the beach cottage happen. There is a cool statement in the Bible about this:
"Better one handful with tranquillity than two handfuls with toil and chasing after the wind." Sounds like your aunt has discovered this too.
awakenedsoul
3-10-13, 11:40am
I think as you keep following your heart and your hobbies your will attract what you need. I find writing it at the top page of my journal really helps. My philosophy is to "Think Big!" They are just numbers. Dying broke is thinking small or in survival/deprivation mode. You deserve better. It's great that you paid off the debt. You aunt is a terrific example of letting go of what's not working. I'm very happy in my cottage growing food, reading, knitting, hiking, and cooking. A rewarding life can be very inexpensive. In Kundalini Yoga they teach that right work and right relationship are the keys to happiness. I find it really helps to not get tangled up with addicts or abusers, too.
iris lily
3-10-13, 12:43pm
.... The trick there is predicting the timing ...
Exactly. Die Broke is a great theory and I'd like that to happen to us! I can make charitable gifts while I'm alive, I don't need to leave a legacy of cash for anyone.
But we've got to keep enough of it around to fund any great unknown while we are alive, hence the trick.
I see two things. :)
First, what I'm seeing is that you are experiencing a shift in your priorities. You -- very likely like me and many others -- were raised with this idea of working hard, amassing a solid retirement/wealth, and THEN doing what you want with your life.
Now, you are confronted with this idea that you can actually do what you want with your life, live well, but it may require not living as 'fancy' as other family members or people in your community.
You are finding that there are people who are giving up fancy houses, cars, and vacations for a more relaxed, life-balanced daily approach. That you can have a nice, comfortable home that suits your needs -- and that it's all that you really need -- and that choosing that will allow you to have a daily round of golf or work fewer hours to spend more time with family and friends or doing community work or taking care of exotic lilies!
And, that during this process, you can also build financial wealth -- as many people here have and do. It's just a slow and steady path -- and it may not be massive wealth, but enough put by to take care of yourself and maybe leave a bit for an heir.
Second, in the idea of dying broke, there's actually a process for avoiding tax implications that a lot fo wealth folk use, and honestly, i think more people should use it as well. Problem is, they don't know about it and/or fear it. Putting things into living trusts. Basically, you have two people in the trust, and all of the property in the trust. Then, when you pass, the money is already 'owned' by the other member of the trust, and there's no inheritance tax implications.
A lot of families fear this for a lot of stupid reasons. my MIL -- who basically runs my GMIL's finances and everything -- doesn't want to change to a trust because of how it will look like she's taking GMIL's money. I think that's just silly. If she was going to just take it for her own purposes, she would have done so by now in the last two years that she's had entire control of GMIL's finances. Others fear that their loved one (usually a child) will use all of the money and there's nothing left by.
But for families where their is trust between the parties and ultimately a trust can work -- it's a very efficient way to manage finances at the end of life stage.
My friend lost her father late last year. Three years ago, he simply transferred his assets in trust between himself and his daughter, and when he passed, she simply had to sign some paperwork and it was simply done.
dado potato
3-13-13, 12:48am
With all respect to Catherine, I see no fault in dying flat broke. I say this of the second-to-die in our household, and we both are hanging in there in our 60s. I believe there is a time for preparation, a time for accumulation, a steady period, and a time for dissipation.
The good old IRS allows $13,000 per recipient per year to be given away without triggering a gift tax. So that is very useful for dissipation.
rodeosweetheart
3-13-13, 5:25am
While I see not fault in dying broke, I would prefer to leave something for my children, so that they would have an easier time in life.
My family tends to do that, so I would feel very bad if I could not leave them anything--stewardship is a big value for me.
ON the other hand, you would have to plan your end so that you were not in the hands of a hospital and on life support, because that would take everything. I guess a living trust might help with that? Honestly, if it weren't for a formative reading of King Lear, I would love to die broke but having transferred everything to the kids so that they would have me living on, nurturing them, giving them a better life, and thinking fondly of my foresight and how I provided for them.
But always have that fear of wandering the moors in rags at the back of my mind. . .
MamaM, at 38, you have plenty of time to do whatever you would like, including not dying broke, LOL. It's up to you!
With all respect to Catherine, I see no fault in dying flat broke. I say this of the second-to-die in our household, and we both are hanging in there in our 60s. I believe there is a time for preparation, a time for accumulation, a steady period, and a time for dissipation.
The good old IRS allows $13,000 per recipient per year to be given away without triggering a gift tax. So that is very useful for dissipation.
You know, I see no fault in dying broke either.. I really don't. My mind kind of goes berserk from time to time and tells me that I've failed if I haven't managed to pass along a decent "gift" to my children--or I'm a failure, if after all the money I've been fortunate to make over the past ten years I have nothing to show for it.
Yet, at the same time, I've always found beauty and gratitude in the fact that my own mother died broke. Her legacy to me was $60 in cash that I had given to her for a Christmas gift three weeks earlier, which she hadn't spent, and which she handed to me on her deathbed. Her REAL legacy was her constant cheer, her support and her unconditional love.
My father died when he was 43. I was 18. The last birthday card he sent me from St. Vincents Home for the Homeless in the Bowery said, "I don't have any money, but if love is worth anything, enclosed is a million dollars for you." I still have that card, and I treasure it--so much more than any cash gifts I've ever received.
So, DP, thanks for allowing me to recall that and get my mind back on the right track.
ETA: I do have some constant "freelancer's anxiety" that I'm not going to meet my rather large monthly obligations down the road, however. So I still have to deal with that, even though I've done just fine for the five years I've been on my own.
I think somewhere around 40 some people start to question the direction of their lives. I was around that age when I stumbled into the simple living movement because it rang true. Media would have us believe we need a million or more to even contemplate retiring but as you say one can live very simply in old age and still have fun. I think the key there is one's mental and physical health. Since you are only 38, make sure those two things prosper.
We plan to use it all up, or at least get really close. Re: the kids, we've worked very hard to try to give them all the necessary skills to make it in the world. 2/3 are through college with no debt and DD2 is on her way next year, we've used the gifting limits to help with down payments on houses and, most important of all, they all possess very solid critical thinking and interpersonal skills. IOW, the kids are going to be just fine whether they get any money from us or not. That is both the greatest gift we could give them and the greatest assurance that we will be able to feel secure in later years.
ApatheticNoMore
3-13-13, 12:48pm
I sometimes suspect the "we're spending our kids inheritence" type are often hypocrites, I figure they're are often recipients of sometimes multiple inheritances themselves but they're spending that as well as they're kids inheritence probably.
ON the other hand, you would have to plan your end so that you were not in the hands of a hospital and on life support, because that would take everything
I doubt this is likely to take everything unless you have very little to begin with. For one thing doctors don't necessarily keep people on life support that long, in my experience doctors don't keep a hopeless case on long term UNLESS the family demands it. So what your really talking about is maybe a few days. And then Medicare will cover most it. The time at the very end may not last long at all, over before you can say boo. What can last a long time though: long term care, time in a nursing home and so on, that is a biggie and Medicare only covers 20 days of that, and some people are in such care years.
poetry_writer
3-13-13, 1:00pm
After having some major financial set backs over the years (An ex wife that cost us $20,000+, another $12,000 in life handing us the stink end of the stick and $15,000 in misc costly mistakes), I have just made peace that I am going to die poor. I work hard and am frugal, put a little away but I figure I will never be financially free. And I am ok with it. I don't expect anyone to take care of me financially but I am not going to stress about it either anymore. I have made my way the best I can. I have decided not to go back to school to get my Masters. The financial burden, time, stress, etc. does not really provide me any financial gain. I am also not going to pursue a job just for the $$$. It is SO not worth my health. I have been out of work 2 weeks, I have lost 15 lbs, sleep every night and have had time to enjoy some forgotten hobbies. I do not depend on nor expect any inheritance from parents (They are being bled dry now by sis and bro) and I don't think what is theirs is rightfully mine. Never have. So, my money life is what it is and I just want to be happy. I am tired of worrying because it is so unknown. Just going to do my best and enjoy everyday.
Very good post MamaM! I've been out of work almost 3 yrs and finally decided to take "early retirement"...LOL! like what else could i do since i couldnt find a job? I gave myself permission to quit looking for a job (after trying 3 yrs, where else is there to look).....I let go of worrying about the future. Whatever happens...happens. I have enough for now...................... I just took my little grandson on a stroll in the spring weather.....:o)
I read something way back when ... A man said he wanted to die with only a few dollars to his name, because he wanted to give his things away as he got older. He considered that as success. The trick there is predicting the timing ... This is kind of the philosophy of financial author and guru Jonathan Pond (on PBS too). He states that you should "die broke" rather than horde your money. Begin giving it away while alive and just keep the amount you think you'll need. I actually plan to do this myself (although I will live on my money rather then give it away) as I have no heirs. My plan is to draw down most of my savings principal over my lifetime as needed until I have just my pensions, my paid for house (and will downsize in the future to free up more money) and a small amount for extras. Of course timing is everything and I don't want to out live my money, so am making lifestyle changes so that, when the time comes, I can live very modestly on just my small pension. It is certainly a way to retire earlier or to spend your time pursuing other things that are more important than earning and saving a lot of money to leave to heirs or to live off just the interest.
After having some major financial set backs over the years (An ex wife that cost us $20,000+, another $12,000 in life handing us the stink end of the stick and $15,000 in misc costly mistakes), I have just made peace that I am going to die poor. I work hard and am frugal, put a little away but I figure I will never be financially free. And I am ok with it. I don't expect anyone to take care of me financially but I am not going to stress about it either anymore. I have made my way the best I can. I have decided not to go back to school to get my Masters. The financial burden, time, stress, etc. does not really provide me any financial gain. I am also not going to pursue a job just for the $$$. It is SO not worth my health. I have been out of work 2 weeks, I have lost 15 lbs, sleep every night and have had time to enjoy some forgotten hobbies. I do not depend on nor expect any inheritance from parents (They are being bled dry now by sis and bro) and I don't think what is theirs is rightfully mine. Never have. So, my money life is what it is and I just want to be happy. I am tired of worrying because it is so unknown. Just going to do my best and enjoy everyday. If you live modestly and don't worry about providing an inheritence for your kids, you and hubby may be able to live off his 90% military disability check for the rest of your lives. You may then be able to do a lower paying job you love rather than focusing on accumulating money for the future or even retire now. think about moving to a tiny house or condo in a less expensive part of the country where housing is cheaper. That will go along way to making the hubby's retirement check go further.
Funny, my dad had all us girls read the book, "Die Broke" by Stephen Pollan, about ten years ago. It changed how I view working and saving for retirement. I plan to die broke to the best extent that I can (I have no heirs, I currently give to charity, so no real need or desire to leave a legacy). This involves a number of strategies, such has having catastrophic insurance coverage to avoid a life- and financial- changing event and annuitizing at least a portion of one's "nut." I think that it's a good read for just about anyone who is worried about not having "enough" in retirement.
awakenedsoul
3-20-13, 4:46pm
I agree. I'm able to live on so much less money now that I retired early. I have the time to be super organized and to plan. That's really helped me to drive and spend less. My tiny house that's a 10 min. bike ride from town has really saved me money. My brothers are way underwater on their mortgages, and it sometimes makes me nervous. After my older brother passed away, (with lots of debt,) I realized that my two younger brothers would be in even worse shape if they die young. I feel like they are spending their inheritance. I hope they realize that my parents may need that money for long term care in the future. They bought very expensive homes.
After my oldest brother went into a coma at age 49, I realized that it can happen to you. If you are single, and don't have long term care insurance, a facility would cost $5,000. a month. Suze Orman says that this is an area where a lot of people make mistakes in their finances. She advises people to get LTC insurance at age 50. Dave Ramsey says to get it at age 60. My parents are self insured. I may be able to do the same. (My dad always says "Look at the companies that go out of business.")
Funny, my dad had all us girls read the book, "Die Broke" by Stephen Pollan, about ten years ago. It changed how I view working and saving for retirement. I plan to die broke to the best extent that I can (I have no heirs, I currently give to charity, so no real need or desire to leave a legacy). This involves a number of strategies, such has having catastrophic insurance coverage to avoid a life- and financial- changing event and annuitizing at least a portion of one's "nut." I think that it's a good read for just about anyone who is worried about not having "enough" in retirement.I actually didn't like the "Die Broke" book much as a lot of it focused on spending a lot of money on luxury items. I like Jonathan Ponds view much better in that it was more focused towards living a simple life without a lot of accumulating stuff, yet not hoarding your money either.
One thing also to consider that Awakensoul brought up is end-of-life-care or long term care expenses and how to pay for those since most medical insurances or medicare don't cover those "custodial care" expenses - just the medical ones. Although if you are poor you can get on Medicaid usually to pay for that after you use up asll your assets. I don't have a long term care insurance plan and don't plan to get one (expensive!) so my "die broke" plan for that is to have a paid off house (already have that) that can be sold to cover any nursing home expenses in the future. With no heirs (unles you count my 3 years younger sister) that houise money would otherwise go to charity after I died. Figure it's more feasible to use it for nursing home costs then to have to pay for a long term care plan for decades - one I may not ever need or which could go bankrupt as some have.
awakenedsoul
3-21-13, 6:07pm
I saw the author of Die Broke on Oprah years ago. His theory makes me nervous. You just don't know what's going to happen. I hope that I can stay in my home and if I need it, hire someone to help me. I'd rather stay in my cottage than move into assisted living. Both of my ballet teachers died at home. It seems peaceful and dignified to me.
I saw the author of Die Broke on Oprah years ago. His theory makes me nervous. You just don't know what's going to happen. I hope that I can stay in my home and if I need it, hire someone to help me. I'd rather stay in my cottage than move into assisted living. Both of my ballet teachers died at home. It seems peaceful and dignified to me.I think that's probably what most people want - just let me stay at home until the end and then sell the house to pay off my expenses. Unfortunately many people won't do that because once you are gone your estate may have other debts to pay before paying caregivers. So most want money at the time of service. And Medicaid (in Calif called Medi-Cal) for people who qualify (can own a home, one car and some money - around $3,000 if single) won't generally cover in-home care only nursing home care. They will generally let you keep your home while you're in a nursing home and until you pass away (but you have to use up yuou other financial assets before Medi-Cal kicks in) but your estate will have to refund them from your home sale. So bottom line, if you want to stay in your home until you die, then you need to plan to take care of financing that yourself. Even little things cost alot - adult diapers for instance - and those aren't covered by insurance. I personally have no problem dying in a nursing home - or even living in one - as I like the idea of having all my needs taken care off without having to depend on friends or family to do that for me.
awakenedsoul
3-22-13, 1:12pm
People are aging differently now, too. I taught an aquatic exercise class at a senior center, and was surprised at how young most of them looked. Exercise and diet can really make a difference. I have a couple of neighbors who are around my age, so if we're still here in 40 years, maybe we can help each other. My home is one story, and I can remodel the bathroom if I need to. It's good to plan and see what other people do.
I am planning on dying broke also. My legacy to my kids is my deep and abiding love for them ;) and all the sacrifice and hard work I have put into rearing them.
Like Spartana, I do not have a problem with being in a nursing facility, if I need it.
I would NOT go to an assisted living facility, as they have a huge cost for little return. For less money, you can pay someone to come to your house for a few hours per week and clean and fill your medication box for the week. Food can be cooked in batches and portioned for the week or frozen dinners, if you like that sort of thing.
Like my mother, I do not mind getting old--as long as I am functional. If I am not functional, I do not want to be here. And while I would not actively take my own life, I am perfectly willing to let nature take it's course without surgery, chemotherapies or even 12 medications/day.
I will do everything I can now to be as healthy as I can for my entire life, but I will not draw out the ill/dying portion with the goal of buying a little more time.
edited for clarity.
SteveinMN
3-23-13, 10:26am
I would NOT go to an assisted living facility, as they have a huge cost for little return. For less money, you can pay someone to come to your house for a few hours per week and clean and fill your medication box for the week.
It has occurred to DW and me on more than one occasion that shopping carefully at the travel agency would let you take cruises almost endlessly and live an almost-assisted lifestyle. No cooking, cleaning, housekeeping, events all the time, someone checking in (steward) multiple times a day,... :) And if you're not fussy about where you're going, cruises can be as cheap as $50 a day.
awakenedsoul
3-23-13, 10:42am
I read somewhere that the Chinese just stop eating when it's their time to die. That always seemed wise to me. They have a good understanding of the body and life force energy. I would not want feeding tubes or prescriptions so keep me alive.
It has occurred to DW and me on more than one occasion that shopping carefully at the travel agency would let you take cruises almost endlessly and live an almost-assisted lifestyle. No cooking, cleaning, housekeeping, events all the time, someone checking in (steward) multiple times a day,... :) And if you're not fussy about where you're going, cruises can be as cheap as $50 a day.I read somewhere about people who are doing this as a retirement housing solution - permanent cruising. They give up their homes and everything else and just do one long (or many short) cruises all over the place. Pretty inventive I thought (even though I would hate cruise ship life myself).
However I don't think that it would work as an assisted living kind of thing because most people who need that, need too high of a level of care. They may need help dressing, bathing, walking (may use a walker or wheelchair), getting around, taking meds, special meals, etc... - too many needs to be handled on a cruise or even living alone, but not enough to need to be in a nursing home. That seems to be the common trend with getting older - you are healthy, fit, and completely self-sufficiant and then you fall and break your hip or leg or ??? Next thing you know you are stuck in a bed having to remain motionless for months - or forever - yet healthy in every other way. Can't drive, can't get up to go to the bathroom without help, can't go anywhere or do anything, completely dependant on others. That has happened to my step-mom (a woman who was still riding her Harley and doing marathons in her 80's). Fine one day, tripped on a step and broke her leg in three places the next. Once out of the hospital she was completely physically dependant on my Dad for everything for months. If she didn't have him to take care of her she would have had to hire someone or go into a nursing home and pay for it herself. So even eating, exercising, being healthly, fit, youngish, and doing all the rihts things isn't any guarentee that you won't need some sort of self-funded aid at some point in your life. Not all disabilities are caused by lifestyle choices.
It seems the market would be ripe for trained, live-in caregivers. But i dont hear much about this ....
They are like great housekeepers and cleaners. No one wants to talk about theirs since they are afraid to lose them. It is harder to find the "one off" great person and takes a lot of looking. They are really expensive when an agency is involved to do the screening and such.
How many people can really afford this anyway? The savings and net worth of the Average American and elder is pretty low.
I read somewhere about people who are doing this as a retirement housing solution - permanent cruising. They give up their homes and everything else and just do one long (or many short) cruises all over the place. Pretty inventive I thought (even though I would hate cruise ship life myself).
However I don't think that it would work as an assisted living kind of thing because most people who need that, need too high of a level of care. They may need help dressing, bathing, walking (may use a walker or wheelchair), getting around, taking meds, special meals, etc... - too many needs to be handled on a cruise or even living alone, but not enough to need to be in a nursing home. That seems to be the common trend with getting older - you are healthy, fit, and completely self-sufficiant and then you fall and break your hip or leg or ??? Next thing you know you are stuck in a bed having to remain motionless for months - or forever - yet healthy in every other way. Can't drive, can't get up to go to the bathroom without help, can't go anywhere or do anything, completely dependant on others. That has happened to my step-mom (a woman who was still riding her Harley and doing marathons in her 80's). Fine one day, tripped on a step and broke her leg in three places the next. Once out of the hospital she was completely physically dependant on my Dad for everything for months. If she didn't have him to take care of her she would have had to hire someone or go into a nursing home and pay for it herself. So even eating, exercising, being healthly, fit, youngish, and doing all the rihts things isn't any guarentee that you won't need some sort of self-funded aid at some point in your life. Not all disabilities are caused by lifestyle choices.
I just want to point out that the level of care that your step-mom got from your dad was nursing home level, not assisted living level. For assisted living level, you have to be able to get yourself to the dining room (usually 200-400 feet from your apartment) by foot, or walker or wheel chair. You have to be able to toilet yourself and you have to be able to take your own meds. You can have them prefilled in boxes for the week, and have one of the assistants "remind" you and hand you the box. But you have to know which box to open.
It may be different in other states, but these are the rules/law in Illinois. What benefits I see for assisted living is that you do not have to cook, clean, maintain property and there is increased socialization. If you are well enough and cognatively able enough to live in assisted living, you can find much cheaper options for these services. Plus, you can live somewhere where not EVERBODY is in your cohort. I like a diverse community: age, gender, political opinion, etc.
edited for clarity
ApatheticNoMore
3-24-13, 11:41am
Although most everyone is going to end up needing nursing home level care in the end anyway. I know very few exceptions among those who live a truly long life. So might as well plan for it.
Although most everyone is going to end up needing nursing home level care in the end anyway. I know very few exceptions among those who live a truly long life. So might as well plan for it.
Statistically, I do not think that is true. People who need nursing home care (long term) are mostly the cognatively disabled, i.e. dementia patients. Most hospice patients (forget the national percentages, but those in my organization--60% die in their own homes, 40% in facility of some sort--hospital, nursing facility and assisted living.) Not everyone dies in hospice, but they tend to be the more "intentionally ill."
I will stop eating. Unless I have dementia and forget this plan. I have told my kids to toss me in the nursing home, if I do have dementia, as it is very difficult for family to give the 24/7 care that dementia patients need.
If I have a cancer, or some disease like that, I will let my kids take care of me...circle of life and all that. :~)
poetry_writer
3-24-13, 5:32pm
Like any of us get to choose how we end up......
There are a lot of misunderstandings about the actual use of nursing homes. My mom would have qualified for nursing home care but my dad and a home health aide and nurses who came in kept her at home until she died. It was traumatic and sad and I don't think it was best, but it was their decision and not something I would ever argue about.
I am pragmatic enough to want a nursing home if I cannot do the normal daily activities of toileting, bathing, eating, etc. We have saved a huge amount to ensure that the care can be afforded.
awakenedsoul
3-24-13, 7:59pm
Another thing I keep in mind is euthanasia. Oregon is the closest state for me where it is legal. You have to be a resident there for a year. If I had a painful illness, I would go this route.
Another thing I keep in mind is euthanasia. Oregon is the closest state for me where it is legal. You have to be a resident there for a year. If I had a painful illness, I would go this route.
Maybe. I'd be just as likely to seek out a physician that will push as much morphine as I want, in a hospice environment. Less drama, similar result. But from what I hear finding those physicians is key.
ApatheticNoMore
3-25-13, 1:48am
Maybe. I'd be just as likely to seek out a physician that will push as much morphine as I want, in a hospice environment. Less drama, similar result. But from what I hear finding those physicians is key.
well if the idea is to kill someone with morphine, that is euthanasia (or other term if one prefers) and is definitely not legal most places. It's very different than just using morphine to manage pain and make the process of natural (by which I mean not a morphine OD!) dying more comfortable.
Of course it is illegal, but that does not mean it is not done with everyone's approval.
I would wish for the ability to make that decision on my own. I even find it intrusive that others whether government, religion, or whatever would demand that I conform to their expectations about my own life or health.
I just want to point out that the level of care that your step-mom got from your dad was nursing home level, not assisted living level. For assisted living level, you have to be able to get yourself to the dining room (usually 200-400 feet from your apartment) by foot, or walker or wheel chair. You have to be able to toilet yourself and you have to be able to take your own meds. You can have them prefilled in boxes for the week, and have one of the assistants "remind" you and hand you the box. But you have to know which box to open.
It may be different in other states, but these are the rules/law in Illinois. What benefits I see for assisted living is that you do not have to cook, clean, maintain property and there is increased socialization. If you are well enough and cognatively able enough to live in assisted living, you can find much cheaper options for these services. Plus, you can live somewhere where not EVERBODY is in your cohort. I like a diverse community: age, gender, political opinion, etc.
edited for clarity
Oh yes I realized that. She was basicly bedridden for several months so he had to physically be there to help lift her to the commode, etc... So while she did have medical re-hab home care and a visiting nurse everyday paid for by her insurance, If she didn't have my Dad (or her kids) there to do that custodial care stuff 24/7 for months, she would have had to pay someone privavte to come into the home as a live in to do it for her (expensive) or go into a nursing home (even more expensive) because medicare and her insurance didn't pay for that kind of stuff. Lots of people thinkinsurance and medicare covers that stuff but it doesn't. And it isn't onl old age and y illness that gets them into that kind of position, but it's accidents as well. Even younger single childless people like myself aren't immune to it no matter how healthy we are. One fall while skiing and I may need a caregiver 24/7 for months. So while eating well and exercising, etc... are all great, they don't help one whit when you have an accident. So having some kind of plan for that is important even at an earlier age - especially if you don't have kids or family who can help - or you can become financial bankrupt even at an early age.
Like any of us get to choose how we end up......
True but we can make plans so that, if we end up unable to care for ourself and don't have or want family to do it, we can be as independant as possible as long as possibe.
Another thing I keep in mind is euthanasia. Oregon is the closest state for me where it is legal. You have to be a resident there for a year. If I had a painful illness, I would go this route.
I would go this route also if I had my wits about me to either do it myself or have a medical person do it. However I had heard that Oregon wasn't doin euthinazias anymore. Don't know if that's true or not but I know it was hotly contested. Some european countries still allow it I believe.
ApatheticNoMore
3-25-13, 8:15pm
Of course it is illegal, but that does not mean it is not done with everyone's approval.
yea I don't know that you'll find businesses (and that's what many hospices are, whatever else they may be) that are that eager to break the law when it opens them right up to lawsuits and so on. Hospice made it explicitly clear they don't do this (not that anyone was asking them to!) and they told stories of some adult children that wanted them to slowly morphine their parent away - just increase the dosage until death by OD (lovely isn't it?), which of course, they do not do.
I would wish for the ability to make that decision on my own. I even find it intrusive that others whether government, religion, or whatever would demand that I conform to their expectations about my own life or health.
If it is really and truly what the patient wants it's hard to argue against. I suspect such things will actually be used as an excuse to do away with inconvienient old people, because let's face it old people can be awefully inconvenient. I am told that whole Jerry Springer type of arguments by the family while a family member lies dying are not uncommon.
awakenedsoul
3-25-13, 8:23pm
One thing I realized with my brother, is that it's all the intervention that keeps people alive. I worked with a guy in NY who had AIDS. They found him a few days after he died in his apt. He hadn't shown up to the dance studio to teach. (He lived alone.) Nature usually takes its course if the body is dying.
awakenedsoul
3-25-13, 8:25pm
I would go this route also if I had my wits about me to either do it myself or have a medical person do it. However I had heard that Oregon wasn't doin euthinazias anymore. Don't know if that's true or not but I know it was hotly contested. Some european countries still allow it I believe.
Oh, I didn't know. Europe is a lot further away...I've made it clear in my will that I don't want any life support or tubes.
If you are physically able to travel, Switzerland is the place to go for legal euthanasia. Lots of restrictions but available. There have even been documentaries about it. The issue is you have to be able to get there. One man perhaps had to use it earlier than he would have if the humane option was available in his own country, but he still chose the option of travel to Switzerland.
it has to be an individual's decision. And people still use all kinds of excuses to keep the ability to make that decision from those who want it. They use their own religious beliefs and often anecdotes on what could happen in all kinds of bizarre situations (which occur today anyway).
Please keep in mind that patients in hospice are declared terminal and often for some unbelievably painful deaths. Hospice tries to relieve pain and often even the best doses cannot provide the pain free death. It can be an emotionally wrenching time for families. I am quite sure that some feel it would be a blessing for an OD or just want the pain to go away. Walk in someone else's shoes. It is not always about money. You should have been with my mother in her last days. If she had been in increasing pain as well as the other issues she dealt with, I would have hoped she had alternatives.
ApatheticNoMore
3-25-13, 9:20pm
it has to be an individual's decision. And people still use all kinds of excuses to keep the ability to make that decision from those who want it.
I don't even see the chances of a person being mentally competent to make that decision when the time comes as being particularly high ... We got "why don't I just die?" when caretaking someone (somewhat senile) whenever we tried to get them to do something they didn't want to. And whether it was really a death wish or just a way of expressing displeasure is a question I will honestly never be able to answer. But we did generally get it when asking them to do something they didn't want to (take thier pills etc.), not just randomly, out of nowhere.
Suffice to say that a decade prior this same person now expressing the death wish, when witnessing another older person expressing a death wish after their spouses death and having lost their sight, thought the course of action was to find them something in life that could interest them, to draw them back into life, that it was all wrong they should just be sitting around wanting to die (though there was no philosophical much less religious! opposition to euthanasia, just that was more reserved for people in extreme physical pain - not just people who had had enough of life). What happened in that decade? Life. Life happens. Aging ... So what's a person's real wishes? Their wishes before or after they get somewhat senile and older etc.. Also unknowable.
CaseyMiller
3-26-13, 8:42pm
I keep thinking about this topic "Dying Broke". For some reason every time I think about it my thoughts immediately go to government entitlements. Today, in my state at least, if someone has no income they are entitled to approximately $200 month for food. They also get health care on par with paid for insurance. There are other entitlements as well. Many get disability from SSI. If someone was just a little savvy, they could receive all these entitlements and still live a nice middle class life style.
I guess my overall point is, I'm not sure its possible to die broke in this country right now.
I think you are pushing the middle class idea a bit. If you have disability then you have a health issue and your life is not what you planned. You probably have extra bills to pay, a meager grocery amount, no ability to travel or go out to eat, get a haircut anywhere but Supercuts, or buy any little luxury items...except from the Goodwill. I don't think living on social security or disability is really that charming. I think we have an obligation to take care of people who are down on their luck or do not have the social/emotional skills to work. Why anyone would want to live a crappy life is beyond me.
CaseyMiller
3-26-13, 9:28pm
I think you are pushing the middle class idea a bit. If you have disability then you have a health issue and your life is not what you planned. You probably have extra bills to pay, a meager grocery amount, no ability to travel or go out to eat, get a haircut anywhere but Supercuts, or buy any little luxury items...except from the Goodwill. I don't think living on social security or disability is really that charming. I think we have an obligation to take care of people who are down on their luck or do not have the social/emotional skills to work. Why anyone would want to live a crappy life is beyond me.
Yea, middle class is definitely an extreme overstatement. Still, guaranteed food, HC and other stuff is not really broke.
Oregon (and now Washington) have Death with Dignity laws, but you have to be able to take the pills yourself; there has never been legal euthanasia here.
Oh, I didn't know. Europe is a lot further away...I've made it clear in my will that I don't want any life support or tubes.
Well I'm not sure but I watched a documentary about euthanazia in Oregon on PBS (also one on Switzerland Sweetanna mentioned) and they talked about possibly reversing the ability to do that in Oregon. I'd like to look into that myself as I am pro-euthanazia and would like to live in a state that allowed that. I do remember from the documentary that, like ANM pointed out, you had to be both mentally able to ask for it at the time it's admionistered and physically able to self-administer it. One lady in the documentary waited too long and by the time she wanted to do it, she was unable to swallow or lift her arms, so couldn't take the medicine herself and the doctors were not allowed to adminster it themselfs so she died a slow agonizing death. very sad. I hope to go out as my Dad did. he had an aortic anyurism and one day while he, very hale and hearty, was build a fence it burst and he died shortly afterwards in the ambulence on the way to the hospital. I was there helping him and he knew he wasn't suppose to do that kind of heavy lifting but you know men :-)!!
ETA: OOPS guess I should have read Janes post first. Glad to know Washington has it now as it's one of the states I would consider living in permanently someday...well, in summer :-)!
I keep thinking about this topic "Dying Broke". For some reason every time I think about it my thoughts immediately go to government entitlements. Today, in my state at least, if someone has no income they are entitled to approximately $200 month for food. They also get health care on par with paid for insurance. There are other entitlements as well. Many get disability from SSI. If someone was just a little savvy, they could receive all these entitlements and still live a nice middle class life style.
I guess my overall point is, I'm not sure its possible to die broke in this country right now.Well, at least in terms of healthcare and long term custodial care from Medicaid, you can only have a couple thousands in cash assets before any kind of assisstance started. And, if you do own a home, Medicaid would require you sell that (unless you still have a spouse living there) and use those proceeds first before they funded your nursing home or long term care - or put a lien against it in the event you can eventually go back to your home at some point so they can recupt their costs once you sold it or died. So it isn't as if a person can have lots of assets and live off the government dole (at least legally). You generally have to pay for everything yourself first and only once you are impoverished does that kick in. And in some states (Calif for instance) a single, childless, 18 - 65 year old, non-immigrant person, who is destitute, ill, and has no assets at all can not qualify for Medicaid (called Medi-Cal in Calif). That will change under Obamacare probably. You may be able to apply for some minimal SSI (if you have enough time on a job to qualify), food stamps, etc..., and some counties may offer low cost medical insurance for people that don't qualify for medicaid, but otherwise you are on your own. Not a lifestyle most really want to live.
Yea, middle class is definitely an extreme overstatement. Still, guaranteed food, HC and other stuff is not really broke.Umm...well you don't get those thing UNLESS you are broke. If you have assets then you don't qualify. So yeah, if you are on government entitlements because you are broke (for whatever reason - unable to work, bankrupt due to medical bills, etc..) then not only will you die broke, you are living broke. If you weren't broke you wouldn't get assistance. That's not to say people who are able to work a job or 2 don't milk the system but that is actually suppose to be illegal.
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