View Full Version : The new retirement
Thought this was an interesting piece in the NY Times today -
Nowadays retirement is all over the map. It’s blurred, more elastic.
Many people retire piecemeal. Or they retire and then unretire. Or they
continue working well after they were supposed to have retired.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/13/business/retirementspecial/pushing-back-retirement-and-not-always-for-money.html?src=me&ref=general&_r=0
Tussiemussies
3-14-13, 3:42pm
Thought this was an interesting piece in the NY Times today -
Nowadays retirement is all over the map. It’s blurred, more elastic.
Many people retire piecemeal. Or they retire and then unretire. Or they
continue working well after they were supposed to have retired.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/13/business/retirementspecial/pushing-back-retirement-and-not-always-for-money.html?src=me&ref=general&_r=0
My husband plans to keep working at his side business. I think it will be good for him since he loves it so much! :)
ApatheticNoMore
3-14-13, 3:44pm
The new retirement - working forever >8)
I do believe the retirement paradigm is changing. I'm glad about that for my own reasons--I know I'll need to work beyond 65, and the more of us who continue to work past 65 means the less likely that younger people will think we're "over the hill" and too old to work.
But, not even that, I do enjoy working, when it's on my own terms. I know there are tons of people who feel stuck and for whom retirement can't come fast enough, but that's not me. I want to continue to be a "serial entrepreneur"--I think after all these years, I've learned that creating a business or a service is just as much a creative, fulfilling endeavor as painting or designing or teaching. I'm looking forward to dovetailing my market research consultancy into my Exit 9 local food delivery company, and after that, maybe I'll try to make money off my blog somehow..
The other side of that is that hopefully people are also taking away that they can redefine retirement any way they want. I think Jacob Lund Fisker describes a great, modern way to think of retirement (nod to lhamo who turned me on to him.) He "retired" in his 30s or whatever. He's still working, but he doesn't have to--he chooses to.
The whole "work til you're 65, collect gold watch and pension, and then golf until you die" paradigm is certainly over. Which makes total sense, given the 20th century meaning of "retirement" is SO last century.
Good article
ApatheticNoMore
3-14-13, 4:02pm
I find it depressing but not new, and maybe that's the most depressing thing of all. But then if everythings hopeless anyway, and nothing we do (re trying to save for retirement) makes any difference anyway, why again would it be wrong for me to just blow all my money now?
The new retirement - working forever >8)
Exactly.
Exactly.
Well, only if you can find work.
Seems obvious to me but it is not an all or nothing situation. Sure, like my motherinlaw, you may have a different retirement than what you would "dream" about but it is still worth it. She had to move, get rid of a lot, sell her house, etc. because her health and financial situation made it too difficult to deal with. Now she is closer to family, has a great apartment where all the maintenance is taken care of, a bus instead of a car, good friends, etc. Life is still enjoyable.
Quote: "I find it depressing but not new, and maybe that's the most depressing thing of all. But then if everythings hopeless anyway, and nothing we do (re trying to save for retirement) makes any difference anyway, why again would it be wrong for me to just blow all my money now?"
Any of us could suffer a health issue that would drastically change our retirement options but I am not going to blow my money because it might happen. Having a nest egg however small, means that some of the darts life throws can be taken care of.
The biggest issue I see currently is the failure of so many to plan anything about tomorrow. Paycheck to paycheck is all they live for. My answer would be to lower current expenses (and there are a lot of blogs where people have done this to reduce debt) and flatten spending expectations. Learn to be frugal today to have some security tomorrow. Learn to enjoy the frugality.
I think it is a huge assumption to think that those who do not work for themselves will be considered employable past a certain age. With everything changing so quickly (ex. technology) unless one works nonstop to stay on top of that it will be hard to keep up with younger workers. I am very fortunatethat as a state employee, I will receive a pension, health insurance and social security but can't "retire" until I am 61. Even then, I do want to do something part-time for extra income. Many of my co-workers were able to retire in their early 50s because they started earlier than I did. Yes, it is going to be interesting to see what happens in the next few decades. As usual, a tremendous gap between the haves and have nots no doubt.
ApatheticNoMore
3-14-13, 6:12pm
I think it is a huge assumption to think that those who do not work for themselves will be considered employable past a certain age. With everything changing so quickly (ex. technology) unless one works nonstop to stay on top of that it will be hard to keep up with younger workers.
when has it ever been different and haven't I been doing that all my working life, in some years paying a couple thousand for my own education? It's not the taking classes to learn new stuff that troubles, it's that no matter what you learn they still may not hire you because it's not what's in your head that counts, and it's not what you know that matters, much less the content of your character, it's the grey hair on your head, how many wrinkles you have, and the content of your birth certificate! That's what I fear and quite honestly fully expect to encounter: age discrimination.
Well, only if you can find work.
And if you are able to continue to work. One does not necessarily remain as hale and hearty as one was at 30 or 40 or 50.
Wildflower
3-14-13, 10:55pm
And if you are able to continue to work. One does not necessarily remain as hale and hearty as one was at 30 or 40 or 50.
So true.
So true.
I realize that we slow down, but there are certainly a lot of older folks who are able to put in at least a part time job. I look to people like Barbara Walters and the Nearings as role models--polar opposites in many ways, but alike in that they were able to live out their entire lives contributing meaningfully. I know life happens and bodies succumb to entropy.. I get it. But I also believe in the power of the mind and the spirit to help overcome that. I am NOT going to be the person that retires with bags packed for Florida and then goes downhill fast--I've known too many of those people. There is too much to do in this life.
ApatheticNoMore
3-15-13, 12:25pm
I am NOT going to be the person that retires with bags packed for Florida and then goes downhill fast--I've known too many of those people. There is too much to do in this life.
They mostly decline soon after they retire because they are O.L.D.. If they decline a mere decade after retiring. That's 75, that's already about the average lifespan. If they decline a mere 15-20 years after they retire, that's 80-85, it's already over the average lifespan and it's old (yes people in my family tend to be longlived still). I believe in taking care of one's health and all but that a person may decline in old age shouldn't exactly be news, and work may frankly have taken most of their truly healhty years already. Extremely sad but often very true. Selection bias and all but the set of people who retire early or sometimes just not late are sometimes the wealthier ones of course (not to mention government workers - geez barely working), but also sometimes just the sicker ones, they need out. What I'd prefer not to be: the person who has to work when many of their peers are able to retire. There is too much to do in this life! Of course I also have chronic urges to just throw in the towel now, but not exactly financially set up to retire now or anything. Let me win the lottery and retire before 40, I don't care if I decline quickly afterward, it's a chance I'm willing to take!
My younger husband is a bit weary of hearing me say that he's my retirement plan, but it's turning out to be pretty accurate. He has another 30 years of work capacity in him, barring the unfortunate, and since I have little saved for retirement, we're pretty much learning to live on one income. We've talked about it, and have agreed that since I jumped into helping him raise his kids in my 40's instead of moving my career up a few notches, he is willing to support me if I can ever retire. I will likely have a small inheritance, which will be helpful as it likely will not come till I am in my 70's.
flowerseverywhere
3-16-13, 1:26am
it also can be self defeating to say to yourself that you can't retire anyway so why bother. This article also seems to pitch annuities which can have enormous fees.
Going through life believing in yourself and working to make things happen make it far more likely it will.
I remember my family making fun of us when we worked hard to pay off the mortgage and decided we would never incur debt again. We never ate out, went on camping vacations, wore thrifted clothes and drove old cars (now only one) we could afford with cash. Fast forward to today and they are still trying to make ends meet and have enormous debt while we were able to leave the workforce at age 55 without traditional pensions. Had we not been so focused we would be in trouble as towards the end of our worklife DH had severe medical problems and we would have big time been in trouble with no hope of any retirement if we had debt. Today we are not sitting around waiting to die, but living life to the fullest and able to give generously of our time to good causes which has helped DH tremendously to achieve good health.
it takes all kinds to make the world go round, but working towards a goal of financial independence is still a very worthwhile and valuable goal to have.
I think that a person has to find a certain measure of balance in their lives in the now, while also preparing for the future.
It's important to live well now. That doesn't mean living fancy or high on hogs or whatever. What it does mean is not "sacrificing" your now for later "when I retire!" sorts of statements.
It's one thing to make arrangements for long term care or potential catastrophic situations. It's another thing to put aside living for an idea of what you may need when you are older. I think that doing that is not only sad, it's foolish -- you cannot predict the future, and you'll be lucky if you can adequately plan for it (imo).
So for me, it is about that balance.
The other thing is knowing when and how to take such risks. We cashed out to come here. The benefits of doing so was that *if we succeed* we have a better chance at wealth than if we stayed where we were.
What it gave us was overall more job satisfaction, a better quality of life, and a real sense that we are -- in fact -- masters of our own destiny rather than having to fight over crumbs that come down from the CEO table on high.
Instead of "this is what your insurance is because we say so" it's now "how do you want to be insured for the best effect for your family and business?"
Instead of "here is what your retirement match is" it's now "how do we want to most effectively utilize this money so that we can have the best tax advantages as well as the best returns long-term?"
Instead of "sorry, no raises this year" or "we're going to have to cut everyone's pay by X percent" or "you only get this much this year" it's "how can we create the revenue that will allow us to achieve X financial goals for ourselves this quarter/year?"
it's a very different position.
In terms of retirement, I don't even think about it. I think in terms of exit strategy: can the business survive and thrive without me?
I strive to set up my business so that should I decide to take a year off to travel the world then the business carries on making income for us and everyone involved. Should I decide that I don't want to work more than 10 hrs a week (teaching and admin), then the business will still thrive and grow and continue to provide income for us and everyone involved.
And, if I want to sell it, then I know the value of that asset (the business) and can sell it for a profit in the end. Or DS can when he inherits it, or what have you.
For me, I love my work. I love teaching classes and running my business. It's *a lot* of fun. Maybe at some point in my future I won't want to work as much -- or as a previous poster mentioned. . . I'll want to work on "my terms" without loosing income.
So, that's the plan. Do I plan on retiring? Not really.
But not because of fear of the economy or because of a need for money or whatever. That may be the case, but I don't think that it will be. :)
early morning
3-16-13, 3:37pm
I try not to think too hard about retirement - it's too depressing. DH is on SSI, but of course that will be cut back sharply when he reaches SS retirement age. As with many people, our biggest concern is health care. DH uses a lot of insurance dollars and deductibles go up each year. My employer, which is the county government, has restructured our insurance every couple years for the 15 years I've been there, and every year it gets worse.
(BTW, I'm SO SICK of snarky comments about over-paid lazy government workers [(not to mention government workers - geez barely working)}] - all of us where I am work damned hard at a pretty thankless job - and we are far from overpaid for what we do.)
I love my job, but it's stressful and there is always the possibility of a physical altercation. I'm not as young as I used to be, and getting between two kids who are intent on hitting each other, or having to take a kid who has flipped out to the floor is not as entertaining as it once was. :( I love my work but it's getting harder every year. I am concerned that I will have to retire without the funds we will need for medical care.
ApatheticNoMore
3-16-13, 4:08pm
Government workers seem disproporitionately able to retire early, it's a strong trend (no it's not absolute or all or nothing. Nothing is! But a trend). It may be changing, but they seem to have things like pensions, private sector workers lost them a couple decades ago (really I don't even know anyone in the private sector with a pension). Then public sector workers want us to never mention that they might get benefits we don't, and we sometimes humor them (because them losing benefits doesn't mean we will gain any, so why should we care too much if they have them, actually acting on that as politics just doesn't acheive anything good for us, so what's the point), but private sector workers still know that their public sector counterparts may retire someday with pensions and they may work until they die because the 401ks with NO matching just didn't perform well enough ...
When I was initially hired for government work in 1972, they could only find military wives who would accept the low salaries given. The benefits made up somewhat for the pay. We had lawyers, CPAs and other well qualified people making huge amounts less than private business jobs they could have taken and did it deliberately. Our joke was we were on one side of the table and the representative across the table was paid 4X more than we were.
In fact, many of our employees took these jobs so they could balance a life with a job and gave up the pay for it. Few people ever said to me "boy, you have a great job and great pay." It was always " oh, you could make so much more in the private arena." Government workers and jobs were not considered great things for decades.
My brother is a certified civil engineer who had his own business. He needed health insurance over 15 years ago and decided to work at the post office simply to get health insurance. He gave up his business and career. People told him he was crazy.
The world has changed. Now those who told us we were crazy are asking "how can we do this?" Not really possible anymore except in limited situations due to dropping budgets and dropping # of employees, increased computerization, etc.
Those also who complain should investigate the pay and working conditions of many government jobs, like correction workers, parole officers, social workers, etc. And be aware that the media has given a lot of time to a few cases that were really at the edge of the U curve. The vast majority of workers earn a lower to middle class lifestyle income.
I like the idea dh told me about hearing - rather than SS and other benefits just give every senior a million dollars at age 55 to leave the work force. No other "entitlements" so it would be up to individual to make it last. That would also open up jobs for younger people.
I like the idea dh told me about hearing - rather than SS and other benefits just give every senior a million dollars at age 55 to leave the work force. No other "entitlements" so it would be up to individual to make it last. That would also open up jobs for younger people.
When you work with the general public and have to study statistics about same, you would not suggest giving a bunch of money to the "general" them. Please get involved with the low income elderly from 65 and on up and educate yourself about the issues they face.
It would be a blessing if everyone was capable of handling the money and there were trusted advisors who could protect those who need it. But the comment that "money corrupts" comes true so often.
SS is the only thing keeping many! from the streets.
awakenedsoul
3-16-13, 11:35pm
I liked this article. They stress working longer and saving more. I still think the key is to spend less. Suze Orman says to live on half. It's true. If you develop that self discipline, you have a cushion, you are in the habit of not wasting, and you start to attract what you need.
Your attitude towards money determines your future. Once I started fixing my relationship with money, and viewing it as a relationship, everything improved.
My father is wealthy yet he still fills up a dog poop bag before throwing it away. He does all that Depression stuff. He knows exactly what he spends, and lives on a budget. He's okay with living very frugally. He always has. That's his secret.
Yes, yes and more yes. Fit your spending to your plan and establish goals both short term and long term. While many things have changed, the book Your Money or Your Life still has good steps to follow.
Self discipline is needed.
I figured out when I was 40 that I didn't want to have to work when I was 55. So I made up a spreadsheet and figured out what it would take to get me there. I did not feel deprived in any way and we still did pretty much what ever we wanted. I quit working just before I turned 50. That was in 2007, and my net worth is higher now than then by a good margin.
We could not be happier, we do pretty much whatever we want now. I enjoy golfing and flying. My wife likes to go out to lunch with her friends and ride her bike. We both enjoy traveling. Life is good. But it helps if you plan for it and make it happen, I didn't expect anyone else to take care of me.
early morning
3-17-13, 12:03pm
dmc, it's wonderful that you were able to do that, and I am sure that you worked at it! But when a family is making a working class wage, it is much, much harder. How, exactly, does one live on enough less to allow one to retire (let alone retire early!), when it takes a fair amount of frugality just to be able to live in a neighborhood with decent schools, and cover living expenses? I agree that most people could live on less - but in many cases, not a LOT less. Live on half of your income? I make less than 40K per year. With a masters, which is required for my job - which I really enjoy, btw. I am fortunate to have a DH who is also a financial contributor - but if it were just me, when my kids were still at home - living on half that would have been really tough.
I think a lot of assumptions we make about retirement (without expecting anyone else to "take care" of us) are based in the idea of having a decent, well-paying job to begin with - a luxury to too many people. Retirement, sans SS, based on minimum wage earnings would be damned difficult, nearly impossible.
I think a lot of assumptions we make about retirement (without expecting anyone else to "take care" of us) are based in the idea of having a decent, well-paying job to begin with - a luxury to too many people. Especially true these days. All the retirement articles out there are geared towards those with substantial means. We are now belatedly saving half our income with hopes of retiring in our early 60s. It is things like ever rising property taxes that are eating our lunch so to speak. Things over which we have little control unless we move to a trailer park out in the boonies.
[QUOTE=ApatheticNoMore;133976]Government workers seem disproporitionately able to retire early, it's a strong trend (no it's not absolute or all or nothing.
In my city and County I'm always amazed at how many OLD people are staffing jobs. One is the County Executor which I've heard from a friend that was in County Governemnt, he's been sleeping on the job for years. He's in his 70's. He probably makes $150K a year plus benefits. He's been there forever. When do they have enough? Give someone else a job!! How effective is he? Wouldn't new blood be a good thing? Look at all the young people without jobs. I notice in the city when I'm there on business that so many people are old and one I know personally has plenty of money and she is 70 and a clerk and she just won't quit working. I keep telling my young friends that are out of college and can't find jobs that the baby boomers will get out of the way someday...probably for health reasons....and jobs will finally open up. I know plenty of people that have "enough" but it is easy to say they don't. Have one friend that they have a state pension, a federal pension, a military pension and two social security payments and a paid for house. Why is she still taking a job (again state job) at the university? She says it keeps her bring moving. I know three people at the university that retired and collect pensons and are back out there as contract employees. Keeping someone that needs a job from getting a job. I see this day in and day out. I think the baby boomers need to get out of the way. People are greedy. I retired at 53 and I'm not wealthy but I have "enough". Most people won't take the time to figure out if they have enough. I was so anxious for my freedom; don't understand people hanging on to jobs when they could be free. Certainly it is easier than figuring out what to do with your life ...and I think that is a lot of it. I've been retired 10 years and my life is busy and I don't need a job to keep me young.
gimmethesimplelife
3-17-13, 12:35pm
I am often amazed when people post about retiring and the problems they encounter saving the money to make this happen, why so few consider leaving the US - or wherever high cost country they may be living in - and going somewhere cheaper? Seriously, I have never understood that. But it seems to work the opposite for those looking for work. I read recently that 40% of 18 to 24 year olds with college degrees are considering leaving the US to find work appropriate to their educations - I so applaud these young people, I really do. Why can't this not work for minimizing our time dealing with what the workplace has become, too? To me it seems so crystal clear. That being said, though, I often worry that the US dollar may collapse some day - that would alter my plans real quick. Rob
... Life is good. But it helps if you plan for it and make it happen, I didn't expect anyone else to take care of me.
I never expected anyone else to take care of me, either. (Not sure what that means--marrying for money? Moving in with your kids?) I earned a private pension, and paid into social security for years and years, and I have enough equity in my house to supplement that when I sell. That doesn't make me indifferent or hostile to people whose circumstances don't allow for a timely retirement. We had a pretty good system in place for retirement there for awhile. Now, not so much.
...ever rising property taxes that are eating our lunch so to speak. Things over which we have little control unless we move to a trailer park out in the boonies.
No, you just move to a different state, but I know that you've talked about that as a distinct possibility.
It's hard for me to empathize with people who think they are unable to change their real estate costs. Of course there are plenty of places where the real estate market still sucks, but if you aren't in one of them, then get out and either downsize in your same town or (if retiring) get out completely to another wonderful place in this great land of ours. If taxes are going up because your entire city is upward bound and yuppiefied up, then chances are you'll be exiting with a wad of cash from your home sale. Good for you, take the advantage.
My property taxes run about five times what my federal taxes do. I can afford them now, and I'm fine with downsizing from this house (which is starting to regain some of the equity it lost), but for older people who can't easily move, taxes can be a huge burden. Talk about regressive.
I am always amazed at the generalizations made in some posts. Why would we assume that someone who is older should "get out of the way"? What if they are supporting multiple kids and grandkids? What if their investments are gone ? What if their house is underwater? We had a property tax system change in our state and some elderly were suddenly faced with property taxes at 4X and 5X previous amounts. A $3000 bill suddenly became $12,000 (we had friends this happened to) What if it is the only interest they have ever developed and the only place they have friends? And on and on. I once had an 80 year old contract teacher who had been a lawyer in a previous career. He was terrific and could work the part time hours given when needed.
I seriously doubt that 40% of US students are considering leaving the country to use their education. If you said Italy, Greece, or Spain or said foreign students being educated in the US, I would have no issues with that statement. They probably all want to come to or stay in the USA. What is the source?
Rob, going somewhere cheaper to my 80 year old mother meant moving to Indiana from NY state and it was a stressful wrench for her to move. But she did it. There is no humane way she could ever have moved from the US and can barely understand even being in a different state after 80 years in the same small town. Even we would not consider moving from the US. We have traveled to other countries extensively and realize that while it may appear cheaper, what is given up is far more critical. I would rather do with a lot less and live here.
Rose, my husband loved his job and the people he worked with. He would still be working but was laid off and took retirement. He did not really want to be "free". We have talked about getting part time jobs but we both figured we did not need to take a spot from someone who might need it more.
When my parents were just starting out, they paid the equivalent of a smaller 2013 Hyundai for a four-bedroom Colonial in the 'burbs. Fast forward; would they have believed it if anyone would have told them then that, at retirement age, it would be easy to spend what they spent buying their house for just basic transportation?
It's hard, in considering retirement, to answer the age-old question: will we have enough money? We may have 30 more years to fund in our retirement, and as any post-Boomer can tell you, Social Security is by no means a sure thing; nor will be some costs which have been ignored or artificially subsidized for decades. So how much is enough? I can't blame workers well into their 60s for continuing to work. And they face enough issues of their own, regarding physical fitness for some jobs or discriminatory hiring/firing practices, that I don't think there's anything particularly noble about an older person putting oneself out to pasture so that some new grad can get a job.
Besides, beyond the wrapper, we have little idea of what most people's financial situations are like. There are people here saving feverishly after financial setbacks in their lives or as a result of poor financial decisions earlier in their lives. Maybe that 60-something has expensive habits. Maybe they work because they don't have lives outside of their jobs. Most of us don't have access to that information.
Maybe that's what retirement is anymore. Those who keep track of such things know that the days of walking into the same door to the same desk for 30-40 years are gone gone gone. People will have a succession of careers. So maybe retirement from a career is going to be a matter of financial wherewithal, physical ability, and future plans, rather than the current put-in-your-time-and-live-out-your-golden-years. Some people will escape in their early 50s, like rose and I have. Some will keep on into their 70s, like a college professor friend I know who still has time to impart what he's learned at a local business school. It's not going to be a matter of hanging on till 62 or 65 and then stopping cold.
I never expected anyone else to take care of me, either. (Not sure what that means--marrying for money? Moving in with your kids?) I earned a private pension, and paid into social security for years and years, and I have enough equity in my house to supplement that when I sell. That doesn't make me indifferent or hostile to people whose circumstances don't allow for a timely retirement. We had a pretty good system in place for retirement there for awhile. Now, not so much.
I'm not counting on the government to take care of me. Now I'll take whatever I can get from SS, ect. I paid in the max for several years. But I would not be suprized if there is some kind of means testing or taxing that will punish those of us who saved our money and invested.
You know, as a single person with a decent income, I've paid plenty of taxes. A lot of them financed wars and subsidies I had no choice in supporting. If some unforeseen disaster befalls me and I require government assistance at some point I'm not going to don a hair shirt and scourge myself. We all benefit from a functioning government one way or another.
gimmethesimplelife
3-17-13, 3:17pm
I am always amazed at the generalizations made in some posts. Why would we assume that someone who is older should "get out of the way"? What if they are supporting multiple kids and grandkids? What if their investments are gone ? What if their house is underwater? We had a property tax system change in our state and some elderly were suddenly faced with property taxes at 4X and 5X previous amounts. A $3000 bill suddenly became $12,000 (we had friends this happened to) What if it is the only interest they have ever developed and the only place they have friends? And on and on. I once had an 80 year old contract teacher who had been a lawyer in a previous career. He was terrific and could work the part time hours given when needed.
I seriously doubt that 40% of US students are considering leaving the country to use their education. If you said Italy, Greece, or Spain or said foreign students being educated in the US, I would have no issues with that statement. They probably all want to come to or stay in the USA. What is the source?
Rob, going somewhere cheaper to my 80 year old mother meant moving to Indiana from NY state and it was a stressful wrench for her to move. But she did it. There is no humane way she could ever have moved from the US and can barely understand even being in a different state after 80 years in the same small town. Even we would not consider moving from the US. We have traveled to other countries extensively and realize that while it may appear cheaper, what is given up is far more critical. I would rather do with a lot less and live here.
Rose, my husband loved his job and the people he worked with. He would still be working but was laid off and took retirement. He did not really want to be "free". We have talked about getting part time jobs but we both figured we did not need to take a spot from someone who might need it more.Sweetana3, hi!
Here is a link with the 40% percent of young people in the US wanting out statistic:
www.overseas-exile.com/2011/12/more-americans-plan-to-leave-us.html
BTW I can understand that for someone 80 years old it may not be the most practical thing to pick up and go - I get that and can understand why someone that age would want to stay with that they know. My mother is 71 and the compromise she has made - a former Austrian citizen kicking herself for accepting US citizenship - is that she doesn't want to be more than four hours from the Mexican border at any time. Now she does have insurance, she's on Medicare and I think she has a great plan, too - I am amazed at what it covers - but she has no faith that the plan will exist a few years from now. Hence the compromise of staying close to the border for affordable health care - just in case.
I also think if one is indeed going to leave the US - probably it is better to do it when one is younger and more adaptable - nothing is ever perfect anywhere and of course there will be annoyances anywhere else you might care to immigrate to. You have to cold bloodedly weigh what is important to you and what are the benefits of leaving - having no loyalty to any country or political system or way of life really helps in this has been my experience. For some people I imagine it is wiser to just stay, for others much wiser to not stay, and for others it will be more about the experience than the survival calculations. Not everyone is going to have the same motivations, I get that. As always, mine are access to health care, worsening wealth inequality, and not wanting to work until the day I am dead to scrape by....We'll see if Obamacare and a possible stint at self employment here change my mind, I am open to giving it a chance. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
3-17-13, 3:34pm
BTW I can understand that for someone 80 years old it may not be the most practical thing to pick up and go - I get that and can understand why someone that age would want to stay with that they know.
at that age, might also want to be around their kids and grandkids etc., even if they are lucky and don't need anything remotely resembling full time caretaking and are mostly healthy and so on (kids might help out with little chores like picking up the groceries and so on as well). But no instead they should be an 80 year old in some country where they know noone, as if they were a young adventurer, but how many have 1) the health - first and foremost this or 2) the desire for that compared to other things like grandkids etc.. Friends and especially family for an elderly person can be as basic a support net as Social Security, not because it provides the same money or necessarily any money, but it provides other things.
I am often amazed when people post about retiring and the problems they encounter saving the money to make this happen, why so few consider leaving the US - or wherever high cost country they may be living in - and going somewhere cheaper? Seriously, I have never understood that.
Speaking for myself, the idea of moving to Costa Rica or somewhere cheaper sounds exotic and fun, but I would never, ever, move that far from my kids. If I didn't have kids, I might consider a move.
chances are you'll be exiting with a wad of cash from your home sale.
Yes, this will be our saving grace financially and we are so fortunate it worked out that way. I guess that's how it's supposed to work best case scenario. But it is kind of sad when you have to leave the place your connections are just because you can no longer afford to live there.
well, we chose to move for opportunity and lifestyle benefits.
but, there's no getting out of the taxes (federal). I pay taxes in two countries, and it's mostly fairly straight-forward. Even if you choose to forgo citizenship, you pay ex-pat tax for a decade. And anyone who gives up citizenship if they make more than $150k USD abroad is assumed to be giving it up to avoid tax, and faces specific penalties.
the US is the only country that does this. it's truly annoying.
From 18 to about 30, I would have done a lot to be able to work and live overseas. During that time we moved from AK to IN in a quick 60 day period. However, I was not willing to sell everything and give up my career unless one or the other employer would ship us over there as an overseas employee. We almost made it.
The surveys are for interest and he even admits that those who plan and do drop significantly. I would have been in the interested category but not planned for it unless it dropped in my lap. I am sensible enough to know there are barriers overseas in other countries to protect their workers and systems from assault by others.
From 18 to about 30, I would have done a lot to be able to work and live overseas. During that time we moved from AK to IN in a quick 60 day period. However, I was not willing to sell everything and give up my career unless one or the other employer would ship us over there as an overseas employee. We almost made it.
The surveys are for interest and he even admits that those who plan and do drop significantly. I would have been in the interested category but not planned for it unless it dropped in my lap. I am sensible enough to know there are barriers overseas in other countries to protect their workers and systems from assault by others.
hey sweetana3, I sent you an email about another topic, not this one. Just want to make sure that you don't miss it.
Wildflower
3-18-13, 2:00am
We basically had a forced early retirement at the age of 50 due to bankruptcy of the company DH worked for, and health problems. We were far from being ready financially for retirement, but sh*t happens... We've been able to survive because we had no debt at the time, and our modest home was paid for. We are still surviving 5 years later.
We were never high income, in fact pretty low, but we persevered in paying down all of our debt over the years, chipping it away bit by bit. Once we got our DDs through college (they worked and paid some tuition too), we were pretty well set as far as having no debt, which has been our saving grace. If I could give anyone any advice at all it is get rid of all your debt as early in life as you can, so if when you get older and you can no longer work like us, because life throws you a curveball you will be able to handle it....
I know so many people older than us that have major CC debt, taken on new mortgages, own 2 or 3 vehicles, and travel the world, yet complain they will never be able to retire. I just don't get that... I mean, if you can afford to live like that, fine, but if you're wanting to retire early or even at a normal retirement age, you need to start living frugally years ahead of time to accomplish that goal.
I agree that the real ticket to financial freedom is being debt free. We now only have my student loan debt, and I'm psyched about that. :D Yay! With luck, it'll be gone by the time I'm 40 (that's 3.5 more years).
And by luck, I mean effort and proper planning.
I think it makes a huge difference.
gimmethesimplelife
3-18-13, 3:30am
About being debt free - I am down to one credit card now with a $1,600 balance and everything I sell on ebay goes towards that card, once it's gone I will be debt free myself other than for the house I share with my cousin at $225 a month for the mortgage - this is divided in half. Whew! It is so wonderful to have all the other cards closed out and payed off.
There is a line in YMOYL about how much stress being in debt is and how people are not even aware of how stressful it is until they get the debt paid off. I totally agree with this. I don't know how I kept that house of cards going as long as I did, I'm just glad it is almost 100% over.....Rob
rosarugosa
3-18-13, 5:06am
That is fantastic Rob!
Rob, that as a fantastic accomplishment!!! As one who is on that road, looking forward to the Dave Ramsey "I'M DEBT FREEEEEEE" scream (cue Braveheart music), I'm so glad I can right now live that moment vicariously through you! And I can't believe that you HALVE a 225 mortgage payment.
SteveinMN
3-18-13, 10:00am
I know so many people older than us that have major CC debt, taken on new mortgages, own 2 or 3 vehicles, and travel the world, yet complain they will never be able to retire. I just don't get that... I mean, if you can afford to live like that, fine, but if you're wanting to retire early or even at a normal retirement age, you need to start living frugally years ahead of time to accomplish that goal.
My boss at my old job (a couple of years older than me) was fully as burned out as I was at the time. But he kept working (as did his wife) because the house, the cabin, the Harleys, the snowmobiles, and the tropical timeshare all had to be paid for. When I left, he was looking to get a Cadillac Escalade to replace his paid-for sedan. He never seemed to make the connection between his and his wife's cost structure and his need to keep working, even after I pointed out more than once that our relative lack of debt was what gave me the option to move out of Crazytown. Or maybe he just likes the "toys" that much.
I had occasion about a month ago to run into my old boss. He now has the Escalade. I hope he enjoys it; he's going to be working a while to pay it off.
Or maybe he just likes the "toys" that much.
A woman I work with had a spouse like this. At 51, they were working hard and he was spending hard. One day while on vacation, he keeled over with an aneurysm. Now 10 years later, his wife his still working hard just to pay off all the debts.
This article really resonated for me, kitten, thanks for posting.
As I get closer to FI (within a few years, I think, barring another market collapse) I find myself wrestling more and more with the question of continuing to work, and how much. In 2011 I had a spell of unemployment that affected my thinking on this topic. Before getting canned I saw the end coming a mile away, and while I waited for the other shoe to drop I thought about all the things I could do with all the free time I would have while I looked for another job. Thing is, I didn't do much else--not that my job-hunting was all that time-consuming. I found that I was frittering my life away, sleeping too much, and in general just wasting time.
As a result of that experience, I made up my mind that I wouldn't leave my present job unless I had a pretty clear idea of what I'd be doing with myself once I "retired." Since I'm definitely not the sort to move to Florida and play golf, that probably means continuing to work on some level. But doing what, and how much, are questions that I need to ponder in the near term.
gimmethesimplelife
3-18-13, 10:46pm
Rob, that as a fantastic accomplishment!!! As one who is on that road, looking forward to the Dave Ramsey "I'M DEBT FREEEEEEE" scream (cue Braveheart music), I'm so glad I can right now live that moment vicariously through you! And I can't believe that you HALVE a 225 mortgage payment.Thanks Catherine!
To clarify, the mortgage payment is $450 a month - my half is $225 - lol - would be great if it were only half of $225 though!
About the credit cards - what has really really really helped with that is that a friend of my family passed on late last September, and due to this I have come into some money, which I have funneled to getting rid of my credit cards. Without that money having come in, I would still have larger balances that I'd care to have, so I guess my point is that I had some unexpected good fortune though I'd rather the person who passed on were still with us. At least I am honoring his memory I feel - he was an EXTREMELY frugal person - by using this money to get rid of debt. I feel this person is up there somewhere looking down and smiling.....that makes me feel good. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
3-18-13, 10:50pm
woohoo, rob! :)Thanks Zoebird! Rob
gimmethesimplelife
3-18-13, 10:51pm
That is fantastic Rob!Thanks Rugarosa! Rob
Tussiemussies
3-19-13, 2:25am
Thanks Catherine!
To clarify, the mortgage payment is $450 a month - my half is $225 - lol - would be great if it were only half of $225 though!
About the credit cards - what has really really really helped with that is that a friend of my family passed on late last September, and due to this I have come into some money, which I have funneled to getting rid of my credit cards. Without that money having come in, I would still have larger balances that I'd care to have, so I guess my point is that I had some unexpected good fortune though I'd rather the person who passed on were still with us. At least I am honoring his memory I feel - he was an EXTREMELY frugal person - by using this money to get rid of debt. I feel this person is up there somewhere looking down and smiling.....that makes me feel good. Rob
Glad for you Rob! It's nice to hear that things have been going better for you...although I am sorry for the loss of your good friend...Christine
Oldhat, the same type of thing happened to me. Due to a job transfer for husband, I found myself out of work. It was enjoyable for a short time but when we came back, I went back to work. My subsequent retirement needed planning and decisions on social, physical, charitable, and mental goals. Otherwise, it is way too easy to "waste" the rest of the life.
Rob,
I sent you an email on some work-related ideas, hope that's okay.
Thanks Catherine!
At least I am honoring his memory I feel - he was an EXTREMELY frugal person - by using this money to get rid of debt. I feel this person is up there somewhere looking down and smiling.....that makes me feel good. Rob
That is SO GREAT. I happens so often that a person dies after working hard their whole lives and then the inheritance is spent frivolously, with no thought or understanding of how much blood, sweat and tears went into each dollar.
So I'm very sure your benefactor is indeed smiling ear to ear up there.
Oldhat, the same type of thing happened to me. Due to a job transfer for husband, I found myself out of work. It was enjoyable for a short time but when we came back, I went back to work. My subsequent retirement needed planning and decisions on social, physical, charitable, and mental goals. Otherwise, it is way too easy to "waste" the rest of the life.I think this is very common for people who are unemployed for awhile compared to retired forever. There is a mind-set of knowing you'll be going back to work eventually and it kind of takes some of the wind out of your sails for long term planning and doing. As an early retiree (42) who has been work-free for many years now things have been just the opposite for me. It seems I am not only more busy and engaged and active then I was when I was working, but each day (and the 2 or 3 or hopefully 4 decades of life left to me) seems to be way to short to fit in all the things I want to do. I still only sleep 6 hours a night because I just don't have time to do it all!!
Rob - I also would be one who would consider leaving the country and living as an ex-pat to either make my retirement money go further or retire earlier (if I wasn't retired already that is :-)!). But I don't have kids or close family so would be easy for me. I think people with those kinds of connections really don't want to leave. However, even if I did move out of country so I could retire early (or at all), I would still want to be somewhere I loved and which had the social aspects I enjoy in the USA - especially as a single female who likes her freedom to roam alone. Lots of lower cost countries have high crime or social issues that wouldn't make living there just to reduce costs worth it. So I might choose to live in a fairly expensive country and city, yet choose to still live small and rent a room in a shared apt rather than live somewhere cheaper or socially backwards just so I can have a nicer house or more money available in retirement.
I think this is very common for people who are unemployed for awhile compared to retired forever. There is a mind-set of knowing you'll be going back to work eventually and it kind of takes some of the wind out of your sails for long term planning and doing. As an early retiree (42) who has been work-free for many years now things have been just the opposite for me. It seems I am not only more busy and engaged and active then I was when I was working, but each day (and the 2 or 3 or hopefully 4 decades of life left to me) seems to be way to short to fit in all the things I want to do. I still only sleep 6 hours a night because I just don't have time to do it all!!
Thanks for that perspective, although I'm not entirely sure it would apply equally to everyone. I have a friend who is about to retire, and for the past few years as he has anticipated the day, he's often told me that he believes he'll have no trouble whatever filling up his days. Me, I'm not so sure. But I guess I'll find out. If I stop working and find that I'm bored, there's always part-time or contract work, or even a return to FT employment.
My husband found two groups of guys he loves working with, Habitat for Humanity and a group that builds ramps for people who need them. It can be a one day experience but he has expanded it into how to make each step more productive and safer. He built stairs for all the construction trailers and the houses to use while being built, sump pump covers and temp. doors for the crawl spaces. He is writing procedures for them for the parts he knows.
He started with zero construction knowledge and by listening and working with experienced people he found spots where he could contribute.
It was very hard on him when he was laid off then retired because he did not "plan" the date.
when has it ever been different and haven't I been doing that all my working life, in some years paying a couple thousand for my own education? It's not the taking classes to learn new stuff that troubles, it's that no matter what you learn they still may not hire you because it's not what's in your head that counts, and it's not what you know that matters, much less the content of your character, it's the grey hair on your head, how many wrinkles you have, and the content of your birth certificate! That's what I fear and quite honestly fully expect to encounter: age discrimination.
It's because of age discrimination that I'm glad I saved when I was in my 30s. If I hadn't I'd be living in the homeless camp next door instead of in my condo.
When jobs are scarce it isn't the over 50 lady who gets the job, or even gets the interview.
There are a few places that love their older workers. A few of the fast food (usually family owned) restaurants here seem to have a high percentage of older workers. At least they should know how to show up.
An amusement park in Iowa loves its summer older workers. They are way more productive, safety conscious, timely, etc. They have a high repeat hire. My uncle works there and he is in his 70s.
But yes, age discrimination does exist and is often very obvious.
Yes, I was explaining to our financial planner that I would like to know I *could* retire in my 50s even if I didn't actually do that. I'd thought about that for awhile from articles and such, but it drove home the point when about a month ago, a person at work was surprise early retired after 26 years there. I don't know what exactly happened, just that we were told so-and-so will retire effective Friday. If he had enough, great. If not, he's going to be hurting. But I would rather be in the former position than the latter. DH had the experience of being laid off because the local company office closed and we were not willing to move to Mexico. He found other work, but some of the people in the same boat struggled a lot more. Especially those who were couples there. I've always been glad we were in different sectors. Also that we have made saving a priority.
Thanks for that perspective, although I'm not entirely sure it would apply equally to everyone. I have a friend who is about to retire, and for the past few years as he has anticipated the day, he's often told me that he believes he'll have no trouble whatever filling up his days. Me, I'm not so sure. But I guess I'll find out. If I stop working and find that I'm bored, there's always part-time or contract work, or even a return to FT employment. I agree it's important to have a plan - or better, a passion to do something(s) besides work at a job. I have many and working was holding me back from doing them so it was a no-brainer for me. And of course you can still work - you just may decide that you'd rather do it on a volunteer basis (or part time if you need the money) that allows more freedom and flexibility to do other things when you want. Retirement can be anything you want it to be - it's not just about sitting in a rocker on the front porch (or in front of a TV or computer screen) the rest of your life. Heck I am often off-line and computerless and TVless for weeks at a time. But I do use the rocker a lot to recuperate from my days very active activities - with a drink in hand of course :-)! A girl's got to veg-out sometimes!
awakenedsoul
3-25-13, 8:53pm
My retirement was unplanned. I kind of backed into it. It's all kind of jelled. Now that I'm growing a lot of food, I don't spend much on produce. (That was the largest part of my grocery bill.) Now that I'm knitting, I don't buy many clothes. I make them. Same for gifts: everyone loves a pair of hand knit socks. It's an inexpensive hobby. Sometimes I feel guilty for retiring so early, but my savings is so much better now that I drive so little and spend half of what I used to...
Training myself to live on half is what made it possible for me.
Blackdog Lin
3-25-13, 9:31pm
Like you awakenedsoul, my retirement has kind of jelled (though mine was planned). We seem to have more money (discretionary income) - no, we really do have more money (discretionary income), than before I retired. I haven't run my Quicken figures yet to figure out just how it is that we're doing better - but it freaks me out to see it's so.
Weird. And I am now reminded that I need to figure out why. I had a plan all along to find a nice part-time job to supplement, if necessary.....and so far, I find that it's not necessary at all. Our simple-living habits of the last 10-or-so years seem to be doing the trick. I guess. No debt and simple living - could it be that that's all that is necessary for a decent simple retirement?
try2bfrugal
3-26-13, 1:17am
I first got the idea of not having regular jobs and retiring or semi-retiring by having minimal expenses from leafing through a homesteading magazine. The people featured in the magazine seemed to be able to live well on very little money, but we didn't want to do all of the work homesteading involved and didn't want to be tied down to watering crops and feeding and caring for livestock.
Then we found out about urban homesteading and simple living ideas and we have been hooked ever since. Every week we just keep finding more and more ways to make a little extra money on the side or reduce our expenses. I have a long list of projects and we just keep decluttering the current house and working down the project list - donating or selling stuff we don't need, lowering our energy costs, getting the best mix of cash back credit cards, etc. We also have a home business so we still work, but it is nice not commuting and being able to set our own hours.
That is how we initially got interested. In 1977 we actually looked at some edge of suburban farm property. We were lucky we did not buy it because it would have held husband back from his degree work. So someone was looking out for us. Ended up 35 years later that we are really city people and probably would not have been successful at the hobby farming.
But simple living ideas are great. A friend who lives in Scotland has decluttered and lives a simple life. As a result, they can easily move when they want and travel easily. We still have too much stuff holding us down but it is a work in progress.
awakenedsoul
3-26-13, 1:12pm
Like you awakenedsoul, my retirement has kind of jelled (though mine was planned). We seem to have more money (discretionary income) - no, we really do have more money (discretionary income), than before I retired. I haven't run my Quicken figures yet to figure out just how it is that we're doing better - but it freaks me out to see it's so.
Weird. And I am now reminded that I need to figure out why. I had a plan all along to find a nice part-time job to supplement, if necessary.....and so far, I find that it's not necessary at all. Our simple-living habits of the last 10-or-so years seem to be doing the trick. I guess. No debt and simple living - could it be that that's all that is necessary for a decent simple retirement?
I know. I think things like a paid off tiny cottage and a paid off inexpensive car really help, too. I've noticed that my neighbors who were driving brand new SUV's now have lost both the vehicle and their homes. Plummeting property values have really hurt people here. (Who were mortgaged to the eyeballs.) Savings seems to attract savings, and debt seems to attract debt.
I think I figured that our house costs us around $500 a month (all utilities, insurance and taxes) plus maintenance costs. We still can sell and buy a smaller house or condo but it is hard to get the costs significantly lower. Note we have 1400 sq feet above ground and a 700 sq foot finished basement. Unless someone hits us our car(s) should last 15 years or longer. I anticipate less and less mileage as the years go on. I already do not like driving in any kind of weather or at night.
try2bfrugal
3-26-13, 5:13pm
I think I figured that our house costs us around $500 a month (all utilities, insurance and taxes) plus maintenance costs. We still can sell and buy a smaller house or condo but it is hard to get the costs significantly lower.
That is great for that size house. In our area many condo fees would be more than $500 a month that would not cover all of those expenses. I am looking forward to downsizing and being in a lower cost of living area.
I know. I think things like a paid off tiny cottage and a paid off inexpensive car really help, too. I've noticed that my neighbors who were driving brand new SUV's now have lost both the vehicle and their homes. Plummeting property values have really hurt people here. (Who were mortgaged to the eyeballs.) Savings seems to attract savings, and debt seems to attract debt.This has also been my experience when I quit work. I spent much less money than I thought I would off work then when I was working and commuting. I realized I hadn't calculated all the cost saving that I would have once I wasn't work - gas for the car, tolls, maintenance, meals out, clothing, etc... - and was very surprised that I was able to slash over $1,000/month or more from what I thought I needed to live on. Doing things like riding my bike more, eating in, not having to get my car maintained or replaced as often, having time to fix things myself rather than hirering someone, etc... really saved a lot of money. So with a paid off house, low taxes, low utilities, and no debt I was pretty much able to live on $500/month for my basic expenses when I thought I would need closer to $1500/month just for basics. Pretty eye opening! like Sweetanna and you, my/our (sister and I) basic housing expenses are around $500/month ($250 each) and I spend maybe another $250 for food, gas, car insurance, etc... Of course I spend more when I travel but just use that extra $1,000/month saving I found once I quit work to fund that :-)!
awakenedsoul
3-28-13, 12:54pm
Yeah, it still blows my mind. I was spending between $20,000. and $30,000. per year during my working years. (I tended to spend more when I earned more.) Not using the car as much, (and driving an older car,) has really cut my expenses, too. Also, having hobbies that are cheap or free. Instead of driving the dogs to the park each day, I run them along the bicycle. Or, we bike to the nearby elementary school and they can run off leash there. Also, when I was in debt I was spending $250.00 a month in interest alone! So much of it is psychological. I also used to commute quite a ways to take classes to keep up my skills. Now I take knitting classes now and then at a place that's only a mile from my house. I also go to a free library group once a month. I can ride my bike there, sit and knit or crochet, socialize, and spend nothing. At the end of the year I take some of the money that I didn't spend and use it for home repairs. This year that will be painting the exterior.
Wildflower
3-29-13, 8:13am
Yeah, living expenses have been so much less since retirement. There's just no need to spend on so many things you need when you're working.... Clothes, transportation costs, lunches out, etc.
That is really interesting.In Finland there are many businessman also use to retire however they have another plan for retirement some are doing retirement investing which for me a excellent idea.In part of Helsinki i use to be in a markkinointimateriaali (http://www.canter.fi) or marketing materials and i notice that most of the people who retire are still working and still earning lots of money.
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