View Full Version : North Korea?
Sitting here on the West Coast waiting to be vaporized I got to wondering. If North Korea does make war upon S. Korea, or sent nukes towards Japan or any other country (including some parts of the USA like Hawaii and Alaska), do you think the USA will use full military might to support S.Korea, et all or limited military support? Also, how do you think China will respond if the US does get involved? That Big Boy always scares me a tad :-)!
I think that North Korea is an accident waiting to happen and China will be horrified at their vulnerability.
I'd like to think N. Korea is just doing some sword rattling, but it honestly seems a little scary. I don't think it would take much for the U.S. and S. Korea to quickly disable North Korea's communications, nuke capabilities, and military installations.
I think China is too far down the road of capitalism to risk siding with a whacko loose cannon aggressor at the risk of sacrificing global t-shirt and electronic sales.
In my Happy Place, I like to think that if N. Korea gets out of line, China will step in and play wack-a-mole for us, to retain their valuable Wal-Mart contracts.
I think that if North Korea actually did commit an act of war they would find themselves very alone, very quickly. China can't afford to let the neighborhood go downhill like that.
I think China is too far down the road of capitalism to risk siding with a whacko loose cannon aggressor at the risk of sacrificing global t-shirt and electronic sales.Ha Ha - yeah that's my thoughts exactly!
I support funds being deposited into the bank account(s) of whomever for the sole purpose of disposing of those behind the revolving disruption and war monger. The world is tired of watching and listening to it.
I put N. Korea in the same category as earthquakes and tornados. Nothing I can do to prevent them but I would love to implement my bug out plan of an extended trip to Australia :)
In my Happy Place, I like to think that if N. Korea gets out of line, China will step in and play wack-a-mole for us, to retain their valuable Wal-Mart contracts.
Perfect.
Makes me think of the 1959 movie 'The Mouse That Roared'.
One professor said the danger is that the N. Korean leader has almost painted himself into a corner with his angry rhetoric. Now if he doesn't actually do anything, he'll be stuck on how to explain himself - a situation these guys don't like to be in.
CaseyMiller
4-2-13, 10:47pm
With all this talk of being at war, I often wonder how NK can stop their troops from opening fire on their own.
In the case of countries disrupting and threatening world peace, they should be scrubbed off the map. Seems the people of North Korea (the citizens) are just as twisted as the leaders. A despicable country to say the least...
With all this talk of being at war, I often wonder how NK can stop their troops from opening fire on their own.I don't necessarily see that as an evil. Take African countries for example, the world contributes billions of dollars towards helping with food, shelter, and medicine, yet nothing changes. They keep killing one another and rubbing in the faces of those behind support, so I say let them be.
In the case of countries disrupting and threatening world peace, they should be scrubbed off the map. Seems the people of North Korea (the citizens) are just as twisted as the leaders. A despicable country to say the least...
War is peace? I can agree about those twisted North Koreans, though - especially the children.
War is peace? I can agree about those twisted North Koreans, though - especially the children.LOL! Ah yes... the "poor children" trump-card. Never fails to tug at the heartstrings. Africa has children, too, but I don't see the world dancing on it's head to assure their safety and well-being, so what makes North Korea any different?
Seems the people of North Korea (the citizens) are just as twisted as the leaders. A despicable country to say the least...
We have a friend who's mother is from Pyongyang. She taught her daughter to make the most incredible beef dish, kind of bbq-like, with lots of garlic, ginger and chili paste. It always gets served with kimchi. I've had it on a crusty roll with a sauce that reminded me of hoisin, kind of a North Korean banh mi. I don't think that is an entirely authentic presentation, but it was mind blowing how good it was. People who can come up with something like that are not twisted, they're like us. I don't think the North Korean people are any more evil as a whole than the German people were in 1932 or the Cambodian people were in 1963 or... We should not forget that turning NK into a parking lot would wipe out 25 million +/- human beings and a lot of great family recipes.
LOL! Ah yes... the "poor children" trump-card. Never fails to tug at the heartstrings. Africa has children, too, but I don't see the world dancing on it's head to assure their safety and well-being, so what makes North Korea any different?
We weren't discussing safety and well-being, we were discussing obliteration.
What makes the US any different?Exactly. By golly, I think you've got it!
early morning
4-3-13, 9:05am
I try to remember that all people are individuals. Some are bad, some are good, and most of us are a mix of the two. Being from North Korea does not make one inherently evil, but the culture is very closed and most of the population knows only what it is told. There's been a long famine, and when a nation isn't able to feed its people, the rhetoric against "others" who can be blamed gets ramped up... Barbara Demik's book "Nothing to Envy: Ordinary Lives in North Korea" is a fairly thought-provoking read. It's always difficult for me to understand the actions of people I have very little in common with, but I do keep trying. I don't think that understanding and justifying are the same thing - but it is important to me to attempt understanding. I can't wrap my mind around blaming the people for all - or even some - of the actions of their governments. If we start that, we're all pretty much worthy of tar and feathers...
IshbelRobertson
4-3-13, 9:08am
With all this talk of being at war, I often wonder how NK can stop their troops from opening fire on their own.
By continuous brainwashing, just as the regime has done throughout its history.
Exactly. By golly, I think you've got it!
So we, North Korea and the US and everyone else should just all be wiped off the map?
I think about what the average citizen there really thinks. Do they not even dare to think about freedom? What do they whisper to their loved ones late at night, when their doors are locked? (If they're allowed to lock their doors).
We only see the indoctrinated troops, and the people waving flags (or else they will be punished). I just wonder........
What crazy little men have run this country for so long. I suppose we could ignore them if they didn't have the ability to cause such destruction outside their borders. How silly of some to have thought the son of the last leader would be different. If he sends a missile to the west coast, isn't he worried about hurting Rodman? :confused:
Its all so very strange.
I think its time to step on this little bug.
poetry_writer
4-3-13, 12:08pm
.......a lunatic has threatened to drop a nuclear bomb on us. Obviously you cant sit and worry about it, but I will assume the little rodent means what he says...he would wipe us out given the opportunity. We really should not give him the opportunity.
.......a lunatic has threatened to drop a nuclear bomb on us. Obviously you cant sit and worry about it, but I will assume the little rodent means what he says...he would wipe us out given the opportunity. We really should not give him the opportunity.
I wonder if the Israelis are thinking that about Iran right now.
I wonder if the Israelis are thinking that about Iran right now.
Or Iran about Israel. Or North Korea about us.
We really don't do much deflect their propaganda that the west will destroy them when the west is saying "we will destroy you".
People who can come up with something like that are not twisted, they're like us. I don't think the North Korean people are any more evil as a whole than the German people were in 1932 or the Cambodian people were in 1963 or... We should not forget that turning NK into a parking lot would wipe out 25 million +/- human beings and a lot of great family recipes. And we can't forget what decades of propaganda, rhetoric and isolation can do to people who have no other information stream about the outside world other than what the totalitarian government allows them to see. You can't blame a people for their views when for generations those views have been directed by their "God-like Supreme Leader" and polictical propaganda to only one way of looking at the world. I feel terrible for the people of that country as I believe that the leadership has no regard for their well being - putting them in potential harm for it's own political goals. Especially when the political goal here seems to placate a petulant little boy when he throws a temper tantrum.
And we can't forget what decades of propaganda, rhetoric and isolation can do to people who have no other information stream about the outside world other than what the totalitarian government allows them to see. You can't blame a people for their views when for generations those views have been directed by their "God-like Supreme Leader" and polictical propaganda to only one way of looking at the world. I feel terrible for the people of that country as I believe that the leadership has no regard for their well being - putting them in potential harm for it's own political goals.
Sounds a bit like here. There appears to be a healthy contingent quite ready to destroy yet another country whether that be Iran or North Korea.
I heard on the news yesterday that the US placed a bunch of Navy battleships off the coast of S. Korea as a show of supportand to use to shoot down any missles launched from N.K. - along with Air force with their fighter planes that are already there. Today I heard that China agreed to side with the USA if N.K. does do any nasty stuff so that will be a big deterent to them (hopefully). China always seems to be supportive of other Communist countries (although I suppose N.K. is an authoritarian dictatorship). I wonder where places like Syria, Russia, Iran, et al will get involved on N.K. side - and how they will do that? I also wonder what the cost to the USA will be in dollars and if it will have a big negative financial impact on the economic recovery and things like government cutbacks (sequester).
I think about what the average citizen there really thinks. Do they not even dare to think about freedom? What do they whisper to their loved ones late at night, when their doors are locked? (If they're allowed to lock their doors).
The situation in NK seems to be very much like Orwell's 1984. Some, like Parsons, swallow the government line wholeheartedly, while others, like Winston Smith, realize the whole thing is a scam but don't dare question the government out loud. Most probably adopt the same pragmatic attitude as the cynical Julia, who sees the truth but says that following the crowd and yelling the loudest is the best way to stay safe.
ApatheticNoMore
4-3-13, 3:03pm
I think about what the average citizen there really thinks. Do they not even dare to think about freedom?
What would it even mean to them? Not going hungry? Yea that would be nice. In all seriousness it really actually would, it's inarguably a good thing not to starve. A government accountable to the people? Bwahaha, well I guess if no outside information is allowed in you can come to believe in all kind of fantastical things ....
What do they whisper to their loved ones late at night, when their doors are locked? (If they're allowed to lock their doors).
I imagine the same thing as anyone and it's probably not political. Do you whisper to your loved ones late at night, "congress is corrupt ...", before you go to sleep? Of course you can openly rant about politics, and it changes nothing.
The situation in NK seems to be very much like Orwell's 1984. Some, like Parsons, swallow the government line wholeheartedly, while others, like Winston Smith, realize the whole thing is a scam but don't dare question the government out loud. Most probably adopt the same pragmatic attitude as the cynical Julia, who sees the truth but says that following the crowd and yelling the loudest is the best way to stay safe.
It's the best way to stay safe just about anywhere, just a matter of degree. And it's how people actually live, it's just basically "accepting the things you cannot change". People still live their lives. Of course the larger conditions under which they live their lives determines the degree of human flourishing (ha, with N Korea we're down at the base of Maslows hierarchy of needs), but it's oftentimes "the things you cannot change". Accepting things that are not easily changed is what people do more often than not. But to see it part of a vast continuum, what even slaves did (well some revolted) but many just lived their lives as bad as they were, wouldn't help with the dehumanizing.
Considering how little effort goes into changing our very corrupt government, which is rotten but stops short of full on totalitarianism as in N Korea (and thus in theory should be a cakewalk to change in comparison, right?), I dont' think North Americans have a right to judge what North Koreans do or don't do to change their government, much less to judge them as bad people because they have a bad government.
I wonder where places like Syria, Russia, Iran, et al will get involved on N.K. side - and how they will do that? I also wonder what the cost to the USA will be in dollars and if it will have a big negative financial impact on the economic recovery and things like government cutbacks (sequester).
I read the Follett book, Fall of Giants, last year. It's fiction based on fact about the star of WWI. It amazed me how what seemed like a little dispute gathered allies from either side of the cause, until what started as something no real account became a world war. Totally silly, but I don't doubt that something disrupting the global balance of power could draw other nations into things.
The situation in NK seems to be very much like Orwell's 1984. Some, like Parsons, swallow the government line wholeheartedly, while others, like Winston Smith, realize the whole thing is a scam but don't dare question the government out loud. Most probably adopt the same pragmatic attitude as the cynical Julia, who sees the truth but says that following the crowd and yelling the loudest is the best way to stay safe.
I think that's a pretty spot on analogy oldhat. Plus dealing with constant food shortages, fuel shortages, power outages, a fairly inhospitable climate, etc. probably has a way of shifting most people's priorities from any thoughts of revolution to survival mode. The most unfortunate thing, as others have noted, is that Kim Jong-un is very close to a point where the only way for him to save face is by attacking someone. Saving face means everything to a dictator. It would be nice if someone came up with a diplomatic solution, but to work that would require both sides to compromise. That probably won't happen.
There are two interesting moral questions raised in this thread. The first is whether military force is justified to intervene when one group or government is egregiously oppressing a people (Rwanda, Kosovo, Mongolia, Sudan, Libya etc.). The second is whether military force can be ethically employed in a pre-emptive manner against serious, perhaps even existential threats (such as the Israeli raid on Iraq’s nuclear facility at Osirak).
I think both questions apply in the case of the PRK, where we see a comic opera tyrant operating a Soviet-style police state against his subjects and making threats (of varying credibility, to be sure) against any perceived enemy he can think of. Add to that a wide enough range of state-sanctioned criminal activity to make a Somali pirate blush, and there would seem to be a pretty good case for forcible regime change. The arguments against would include the collateral damage to the PRK citizenry and their immediate neighbors, the expense to do so in terms of our own lives, treasure and diplomatic relations, or the issue of violating the sovereignty of an independent state (however odious) with insufficient direct provocation.
I’m not sure where I come down in this case, yet. I’m not convinced the North has sufficient military capability to do much beyond creating a lot of short-term local misery. On the other hand, I don’t think we’re morally compelled to wait for Pearl Harbor before we act, either.
I don't understand arguing/discussing a situation where not a single one of us can actually DO anything either way. Is it to soothe something in our own brains?
I don't understand arguing/discussing a situation where not a single one of us can actually DO anything either way.
And yet here you are.
The Storyteller
4-3-13, 5:58pm
Sitting here on the West Coast waiting to be vaporized I got to wondering. If North Korea does make war upon S. Korea, or sent nukes towards Japan or any other country (including some parts of the USA like Hawaii and Alaska), do you think the USA will use full military might to support S.Korea,
Yes.
A three day war, maybe a week at most. No nukes (if they exist) will find their targets.
Yes.
A three day war, maybe a week at most.
For the initial breaking-things-and-killing-people stage, perhaps. Iraq took what, 10 minutes this last time?
But then what?
But then what?
Back to “The Mouse That Roared” analogy. In the movie, a small country picked a fight with the United States. The United States won the war and rebuilt the country which was the goal of the country that picked the fight. It’s happens.
The Storyteller
4-3-13, 6:54pm
Back to “The Mouse That Roared” analogy. In the movie, a small country picked a fight with the United States. The United States won the war and rebuilt the country which was the goal of the country that picked the fight. It’s happens.
Except... didn't the mouse accidentally win?
The Storyteller
4-3-13, 6:57pm
For the initial breaking-things-and-killing-people stage, perhaps. Iraq took what, 10 minutes this last time?
But then what?
I wouldn't compare it to Iraq. That war was started by morons.
ApatheticNoMore
4-3-13, 7:45pm
Back to “The Mouse That Roared” analogy. In the movie, a small country picked a fight with the United States. The United States won the war and rebuilt the country which was the goal of the country that picked the fight.
With the current record I'd choose the U.S. to rebuilt a country, like I'd hire a remodeler whose last job collasped the house. Of course if the goal is to bankrupt the U.S. ....
Except... didn't the mouse accidentally win?
Oh, that's right, the mouse won. I must have fallen asleep before the end of the movie. I do that a lot.
Oh, that's right, the mouse won. I must have fallen asleep before the end of the movie. I do that a lot.
Didn't see the movie, but the book was kind of like "The Producers" with Q-bombs.
That war was started by morons.
Aren't they all?
I read the Follett book, Fall of Giants, last year. It's fiction based on fact about the star of WWI. It amazed me how what seemed like a little dispute gathered allies from either side of the cause, until what started as something no real account became a world war. Totally silly, but I don't doubt that something disrupting the global balance of power could draw other nations into things.
That's actually what worries me more so than N. K. launching a missile. I can just see the various nations siding up one-way or another and wreaking havoc like in WWI and WWII, and what was the actual root cause (N.K.), being lost in the melee that follows. Hopefully a diplomatic solution can be found but doubtful. To a dictator who would rather starve his people or force them to work in what amounts to slave labor (or so says OUR propaganda about N.K.) rather than capitulate to the evil West by reducing/eliminating it's nuclear programs in exchange for aid, well... finding a diplomatic solution probably won't matter to him.
ApatheticNoMore
4-4-13, 2:40pm
That's actually what worries me more so than N. K. launching a missile.
Yea mad enough not to care about MAD (mutually assured destruction). Still, I'm not sure why I should worry about this (which capability probably doesn't exist), and not worry about the fact we have nuclear power plants in earthquake zones! Nuclear power plants that ARE NOT built to withstand the kind of earthquakes that are possible. That is my greatest, in my view most probable, nuclear fear.
So the San Onofre nuclear power plant is temporarily out of service perhaps indefinitely but who knows (whew breathe one temporary sigh of relief) but is not designed to withstand more than a 7.0 earthquake. The faults here are capable of producing more than a 7.0 earthquake! So if it's reopened plus the other nuclear power plants we have in California .... This has happened, Fukishima, you read blog stories of people in Japan sick for months and months from the radiation (it may way kill them in the end) and yet massively populated areas in the U.S. stand exposed to the risk, millions of peoples lives, and it seems nothing is even being done to make those power plants safer. Actual people's lives, worth nothing to the powers that be in the end (our lives were too cheap to meter), military focus though is all important (I mean yea it can be one strategy in risk minimization but what about all the peacetime nuclear risks?)
Yeah nuclear reactors in an earthquake zone (and me not too many miles from San Onofre) -definetly a worry but a localized worry with minimal impact on a global scale. It's the retalitory or even pre-emptive strikes from other countries - perhaps many countries at different points all over the world - that makes this much much worse than a Chernobyl, Fukashima or Three Mile Island incident.
Didn't see the movie, but the book was kind of like "The Producers" with Q-bombs.
Quote Originally Posted by The Storyteller View Post
That war was started by morons.
Aren't they all?
Off topic, but this reminds me of something my daughter said many years ago. She asked what VFW stood for and when I told her she asked, 'but aren't all our wars foreign?"
Off topic, but this reminds me of something my daughter said many years ago. She asked what VFW stood for and when I told her she asked, 'but aren't all our wars foreign?"
They are now. They haven't always been.
gimmethesimplelife
4-5-13, 11:03am
I read online last night that one of the places North Korea is talking of bombing is Austin, Texas!!!!! I was like no way, hands off Austin! Seriously, somehow the choice of Austin, a city I very much like, suddenly made the whole thing much more real and personal to me.
North Korea I have not kept up with over the years and I don't have any intelligent remarks to make as a result. All I can say is it seems to be possibly biting off more than it can chew and I'm just hoping this is all hot air for attention and ego gratification, sort of along the lines of what Hugo Chavez was accused of with the Western World. Rob
DD is flying to Austin today!! She told me this morning about Austin being included in where N. Korea's missiles would go, and I just had to laugh! Why Austin?
We decided his trajectories were off, since he probably thought the world was flat. Then we thought maybe he hates Vegans.......cause there's a big Vegan Fest there.
Who knows? The little guy is whacko. Too bad we can't surgically remove him. Once he was gone, maybe we could convince everyone else there's a better way to live?
The little guy is whacko. Too bad we can't surgically remove him.
I wouldn't totally rule out that possibility.
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/s480x480/8994_515698485138944_1741991712_n.jpg
Alan-LOL!
:laff::laff::laff:
LOL Alan.......that's a good one!
Ha Ha Alan! Nuke 'em - gangnam style: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bSn4rzKmlVo#t=0s
Makes me think of the 1959 movie 'The Mouse That Roared'.
North Korea is no longer a mouse. And they no longer have a seasoned and mature leader. Rather, they are nuclear-capable and have a young, unpredictable leader full of testosterone who is personally worth 5 billion dollars via the illegal drug trade and foreign investments. In my opinion, it is our responsibility to invade North Korea, kill their leaders, and destroy their nuke plants and weapons. Otherwise, they will potentially start World War III just on a whim from their immature whiny "leader".
North Korea is no longer a mouse. And they no longer have a seasoned and mature leader. Rather, they are nuclear-capable and have a young, unpredictable leader full of testosterone who is personally worth 5 billion dollars via the illegal drug trade and foreign investments. In my opinion, it is our responsibility to invade North Korea, kill their leaders, and destroy their nuke plants and weapons. Otherwise, they will potentially start World War III just on a whim from their immature whiny "leader".
Invasion has not worked anywhere very well and the mess will be unimaginable. Do you really think that China and Russia are going to quietly sit by and watch an invasion by the US or NATO take place?
Time for you to sign up for the free weekly Stratfor reports at stratfor.com perhaps?
Since we know they will eventually start WWIII, why don't we just invade and start it before they do? I'm not a real preemptive kind of guy because it almost always backfires. Can't see this one being any different. Besides, China is in a much better position to handle NK and they have more motivation.
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