View Full Version : Good bye
awakenedsoul
4-24-13, 11:56am
Just wanted to say good bye to everyone as I am leaving the forum. Some of recent events in the news have made me realize that I need to make some changes in where and how I spend my time, energy, and money.
Thanks to all who have posted and offered helpful advice, insights, and information. I really appreciate it. Best wishes for the future,
awakenedsoul
You will be missed awakenedsoul. I hope you can at least drop in from time to time to say hi. All the best.
Peace be with you, awakenedsoul!
catherine
4-24-13, 12:30pm
Oh, no!! I really loved your contributions and inspirations. I would love to hear your insights into why you are changing how you spend your time. Please PM me if you want to.
I'm with Catherine, even though I believe in people moving on when they need to. Blessings on you, awakenedsoul, for telling us you're going, knowing it would matter to us to know.
Best of luck with your new found place to spend time. We all make changes from time to time to fit where we need to be right then. Stop back when you are ready, we will still be here.
I question often if I belong on a simple living board, sometimes my life does not seem all that simple "compared" to others. I like visiting here however :)so I stop by from time to time. I dropped the frugal board as I felt I no longer related to many of the topics talked about there, though it seemed like I had been there so long I knew each of the posters in a strange way. No one mentioned I was gone or sent a message asking where I was, so I guess I just drifted off to the lost world of the net to them:|(
Gardenarian
4-24-13, 1:10pm
Blessings awakenedsoul! I'm so glad to have had the chance to spend time with you here. Maybe things will lead you back this way again someday.
Best of luck to all things in the future!
All the best, awakenedsoul! I must say I admire the way you have fashioned a simple life for yourself. If you find your way back to this forum, I would be more than happy to see you post again.
ApatheticNoMore
4-24-13, 1:41pm
Bye. I always admired your commitment to meditation and yoga and taking care of yourself on that level. Always seemed highly desirable and always something I wish I could emulate (well I could I guess, but I'm necessarily so well organized at present :~), so hence the admiration).
I've always enjoyed you being here awakenedsoul. But I understand why you feel you need to go. I wish you the very best.
((((hugs))))
Awakenedsoul --- You will be missed!!! I have a distinct vision of your cute little bungalow home surrounded by veggie plants. (with the crazy neighbors, like your place was a little healthy lily pad in a sea of insanity) Please do come back if the mood strikes or your work elsewhere is complete. I have gotten so much out of your posts.
Tussiemussies
4-24-13, 4:15pm
Awakened Soul, I will miss you so much here. I have enjoyed reading about all you have done with your house and all of your inspiring posts. Very sad....Christine
Best wishes, AwakenedSoul! I've enjoyed your calm presence here very much, and wish you only the best! Take good care of yourself.
fidgiegirl
4-24-13, 5:37pm
awakenedsoul, I admire your bravery to do what you need to do with your own life. For me, that is the essence of simple living. If you want to come back and say hi, please do and you will be welcomed!! You will be missed!
Blackdog Lin
4-24-13, 6:07pm
We will miss you. Wishing you all the best.....
awakenedsoul
4-24-13, 6:22pm
Thanks everybody. Your words mean a lot. I never really thought about guns or bombs until I came on this forum. With the recent wave of crimes, the dam has burst. I can't stop crying. I don't feel comfortable being part of a group, (no offense,) where people brag about their guns, or are not in touch with the grief that these crimes are causing. It's hit me very hard. (Especially in the schools.) I'm very worried by the masses of people who have them and the egotistical sense of power some people seem to get from gun ownership. They don't seem to be in touch with the losses that people are experiencing. I just feel like I can't be part of something that supports that. I'm not trying to start a debate, this is just my personal feeling. I don't see guns as part of simple living.
There are many compassionate, caring people on this board, and I appreciate your energy and knowledge. I also feel that there is some rudeness at times that goes unchecked. I know I should focus on the positives, (and there are many,) but at this time the negative is overshadowing that.
I wish you well.
Thank you for being a friend and especially for all you did at Christmastime. You really helped me to feel better.
Blessings to you!
I will miss your posts and find you very inspirational - especially for a SoCalian :-)! And while I understand your reasons for leaving, please try to remember that those of us who own guns aren't cold hearted or insensitive to the suffering of others. I am often completely awash with grief when I hear of such things like the bombings or mass shootings. Owning a gun for hobby or sport or even self protection (and talking about it with like minded people here as well as trying to find reasonable solutions to gun violence or violence in general) doesn't mean we aren't just as feeling and caring as anyone else is. But I wish you luck and hope you'll come back and visit sometimes - and post too!
gimmethesimplelife
4-24-13, 11:08pm
I'm sorry to see you go, Awakened Soul. I have really enjoyed your posts about growing most of your own food and I also feel you on your sensitivity to gun issues....I hope you will come back and post from time to time and I wish you the best always. Rob
iris lily
4-24-13, 11:20pm
oh cwap, now I will not get to see a photo of your tiny house! farewell, come back and visit!
As I often say to people who leave: please share with me your secret of getting off this website, haha
iris SL addict
Another one sorry to see you go. You are an inspiration to me with your joy shining through.
With no desire to rekindle the debate, I feel compelled join in. In light of recent events it has become popular to lump all gun owners together in several ways. That is wrong. I'm not saying that is a trend here, but it is in the outside world and it is no less a form of bigotry than assigning any single characteristic to everyone in any large group of people. There are people in the world who are capable of doing harm to others. Some of them own guns. That does not mean anyone who owns a gun has that capability or that (through the ownership of a gun) they have somehow become desensitized to the plight of others. Each member here who is a gun owner has a unique set of reasons that led to that choice. No two are alike, but I believe with absolute certainty that no one here lists any form of offensive threat to others among their reasons to own a gun.
These forums are a reflection of the very best parts of our society. We don't have hate groups here or radical, fundamentalist types who advocate violence. There are members who occasionally like to stir the pot to keep the conversation spirited, but never in my experience has that been done with the intent of causing harm. But even here life is not always peaceful and the world is not always gentle. Because we are all concerned with what happens IRL this forum will never be a utopia where disturbing topics do not appear. On an individual basis we can all make the choice to live in a way that minimizes the impact of tragic events on our psyche, but as a society it would be our undoing to take that approach. We have no choice but to try to answer the hard questions. Awakenedsoul, you are a gentle and deeply caring person. Input from people with those qualities is essential for our society to evolve to a better place. We all understand if this is simply not a good fit for you right now and wish you peace on your journey, but please do not leave with the belief that others who take a different approach care any less deeply.
Life_is_Simple
4-25-13, 11:07am
Thanks everybody. Your words mean a lot. I never really thought about guns or bombs until I came on this forum. With the recent wave of crimes, the dam has burst. I can't stop crying. I don't feel comfortable being part of a group, (no offense,) where people brag about their guns, or are not in touch with the grief that these crimes are causing.
{snip}
I don't see guns as part of simple living.
There are many compassionate, caring people on this board, and I appreciate your energy and knowledge. I also feel that there is some rudeness at times that goes unchecked. I know I should focus on the positives, (and there are many,) but at this time the negative is overshadowing that.
I know what you mean. I have issues with the forum, not exactly the same ones, but similar.
I know there is an Ignore feature, and I am tempted to use it. And maybe we should all be encouraged to use it, to Ignore certain people who tend to set us off before it gets to this. It is under Settings > Edit Ignore List. You can always ignore someone temporarily.
Also, there is no place for us to discuss issues in the forum, until they spiral and people leave. Or maybe we could discuss them in SLF Business?
Sorry to see you go Awakenedsoul. I was just getting to know you, and remember things you said from thread to thread *hugs*
it is no less a form of bigotry that assigning any single characteristic to everyone in any large group of people.
Awakenedsoul, you are a gentle and deeply caring person. Input from people with those qualities is essential for our society to evolve to a better place. We all understand if this is simply not a good fit for you right now and wish you peace on your journey, but please do not leave with the belief that others who take a different approach care any less deeply. Totally agree with both your statements Gregg. I also feel it is a form of bigotry and prejudice to assign many character traits (especially negative character traits) to a group of people based on only one thing the do, or something they own and use, or what their appearance is (old, young, black, white, male, female, etc...), political, economic or socialital beliefs are. We are all different irregardless of how similair we may appear on the outside.
For instance I am a vegan - and a pretty hardcore one at that. I find it very distrubing when people talk about raising, slaughtering and cooking animals. I don't enjoy hearing about the new knife or cleaver to chop, slice, dice, mince, pare, and pulverize a once beautiful living intelligent creature. Chills me. However I certainly don't assign negative character traits to those people who do eat animals. I assume that most are kind, loving and caring people who just choose to be carnivores as a lifestyle choice. I don't label them as uncaring or harmful people at all even though I personally don't agree with their practice. It one of the reasons I never go on the food or farming boards here where people talk about preparing animals for meals. And that is the beauty of these forums, as Life is Simple pointed out, you can ignore people or just skip threads and whole forums that are upseting to you and just engage in the ones that you enjoy.
I agree that Awakenedsoul is a gentle loving and caring person and that her input here is very important. I'm saddened she left because she was upset at things that are talked about on the polictical forum - where it's common to talk about highly inflamatory topics - but understand if a community isn't a good fit for her.
I don't feel comfortable being part of a group, (no offense,) where people brag about their guns, or are not in touch with the grief that these crimes are causing. ... I just feel like I can't be part of something that supports that.
I'm sorry that's what you see here. I think your perceptions are perhaps rather different from the reality.
Awakened soul, you are of a gentle mindset as Gregg has posted and I would miss the input of members of all similar persuasions but, frankly, I have found the members on this forum able to discuss and give an explanation for circumstances that I cannot begin to understand.
I may never agree with a position/s taken but I understand their position better and hope that the other party understands my position better.
I have to chuckle as I think of the differences that my DH and I had over the years. We simply agreed to disagree and were able to support and love each other for 47 years living a fairly harmonious life together.
Bad, tragic things do happen but I also do believe that the best in each of us is evidence of the divine (or whatever you wish to call it) in terms that we can all understand and that is what I look for online or in RL.
Hugs
We need more "poster children" for simple living - as you are - for inspiration and learning. Hope you come back someday soon.
I don't feel comfortable being part of a group, (no offense,) where people brag about their guns, or are not in touch with the grief that these crimes are causing.
Actually there are probably more people around here who brag about their pressure cookers.
Tussiemussies
4-25-13, 3:14pm
Awakened, I tried to send you a PM but my in-box is too full and I don't want to delete it. I was wondering if you go to any other forums so we could keep in touch that way? :)
awakenedsoul
4-25-13, 6:19pm
Hi Tussiemussies,
I got your message. Thanks. I sent you a reply, but your mailbox was full, so it bounced back. I'm not on any other forums as a poster.
I'm pondering all this and will sleep on it. I really appreciate all the replies. It makes me see how many great people there are in this group. As some have suggested, I do use the ignore button for a couple of posters who are sarcastic and pick fights. Some people thrive on that and their personalities aren't going to change. The problem is, they can still read your posts. Staying off the public policy forum is good advice, too.
Tussiemussies
4-25-13, 6:59pm
Hi Tussiemussies,
I got your message. Thanks. I sent you a reply, but your mailbox was full, so it bounced back. I'm not on any other forums as a poster.
I'm pondering all this and will sleep on it. I really appreciate all the replies. It makes me see how many great people there are in this group. As some have suggested, I do use the ignore button for a couple of posters who are sarcastic and pick fights. Some people thrive on that and their personalities aren't going to change. The problem is, they can still read your posts. Staying off the public policy forum is good advice, too.
Yes, there are certain parts of the forum that I never read, just to keep myself peaceful! LOL :)
Awakenedsoul. Please do reconsider (ponder), even if just for the handful us around here who think the world of you. (Like me.) I enjoy your company (so much).
Re: the Public Policy Forum... IMO, it's the downfall of this site. Reminds me of an ugly old carpet left behind in a newly-renovated room, all stained, tattered, stinky, and worn... yet for whatever reason, the owners decided to leave it in place and work around it. If it were up to me, I'd rip it out and get rid of it.
Life_is_Simple
4-25-13, 7:21pm
Re: the Public Policy Forum... IMO, it's the downfall of this site. Reminds me of an ugly old carpet left behind in a newly-renovated room, all stained, tattered, stinky, and worn... yet for whatever reason, the owners decided to leave it in place and work around it. If it were up to me, I'd rip it out and get rid of it.
Agreed. The two things that sub-forum does is:
(1) Drives people away
(2) Keeps people from donating
Actually there are probably more people around here who brag about their pressure cookers.
Ummm, I would be one of those. In my defense, a pressure cooker is a marvelous and magickal thing.
Awakenedsoul. Please do reconsider (ponder), even if just for the handful us around here who think the world of you. (Like me.) I enjoy your company (so much).
Re: the Public Policy Forum... IMO, it's the downfall of this site. Reminds me of an ugly old carpet left behind in a newly-renovated room, all stained, tattered, stinky, and worn... yet for whatever reason, the owners decided to leave it in place and work around it. If it were up to me, I'd rip it out and get rid of it.
I think having that forum keeps those discussions off of the rest of the forum.
I also think that a forum is so similar to regular life in that it is impossible to like everything about everyone. What I post is mostly stupid and pointless, but I am fortunate that no one criticizes me or calls me on it .
So, just like ordinary life, we avoid or stop participating in the stuff and/or people we do not like.
Frankly, I am pretty much in love with all of the differing opinions here. Try as we might, it is impossible to avoid having it ooze into much of what we share, so might as well sit back and enjoy the show. I will bring the popcorn.
Actually there are probably more people around here who brag about their pressure cookers.
Two words: Kuhn Rikon.
http://kuhnrikon.com/images/database/product_glam_1_12.gif
rosarugosa
4-25-13, 8:42pm
I think Jilly makes a great point that the Public Policy Forum serves a useful purpose, and makes it easy to keep away from those types of discussions if that is your preference. I feel the same way about the Spirituality Forum. I peek into Public Policy occasionally, but mostly stick to Frugality, Food, Health, Housing, Organizing and Personal Finance. I do enjoy your posts, Awakened Soul, and I would be sorry to see you leave as well. But I enjoy the varied opinions from different lifestyles and political persuasions. I mostly brag about my salad spinner :)
awakenedsoul
4-25-13, 8:56pm
Awakenedsoul. Please do reconsider (ponder), even if just for the handful us around here who think the world of you. (Like me.) I enjoy your company (so much).
Re: the Public Policy Forum... IMO, it's the downfall of this site. Reminds me of an ugly old carpet left behind in a newly-renovated room, all stained, tattered, stinky, and worn... yet for whatever reason, the owners decided to leave it in place and work around it. If it were up to me, I'd rip it out and get rid of it.
Thank you so much, Mrs. M. Yes, I would miss all of the kind people here that I like very much. You have a gift for making people feel welcome. But, I know it's also something you do consciously. It's made me see the power of influence. I remember when I was little my mother would say, "I can always tell when you've been playing with Karen, because you start acting bratty." Wise mothers keep their children away from those who bully and provoke, and steer them towards excellence. We have to do the same for ourselves as adults.
It's weird, I was thinking that the PPF almost seems like a different forum. It seems to bring out people's dark side and ego. I guess that's why I normally don't discuss religion or politics.
awakenedsoul
4-25-13, 9:05pm
Agreed. The two things that sub-forum does is:
(1) Drives people away
(2) Keeps people from donating
Yeah, that's how I was feeling. I know if I were new to this forum, and started there, I would have left. But, as some people have pointed out, it's a place where like minded people can congregate.
. I mostly brag about my salad spinner :)
don't you start.
:laff::laff::laff::laff::laff:
gimmethesimplelife
4-25-13, 9:51pm
Hi Tussiemussies,
I got your message. Thanks. I sent you a reply, but your mailbox was full, so it bounced back. I'm not on any other forums as a poster.
I'm pondering all this and will sleep on it. I really appreciate all the replies. It makes me see how many great people there are in this group. As some have suggested, I do use the ignore button for a couple of posters who are sarcastic and pick fights. Some people thrive on that and their personalities aren't going to change. The problem is, they can still read your posts. Staying off the public policy forum is good advice, too.Public Policy can bring out some interesting behavior in folks, that much I would agree with wholeheartedly. It also seems to me that the calmer discussions tend to be elsewhere on the board - though I do see how issues posted on Public Policy can and do impact efforts at simple living. As a side note, that part of the board used to be called Simple Politics if I remember right. I arrived here in August of 2005 so it's been awhile but I am pretty sure it was called Simple Politics. It was a bit of a troll fest then. Rob
Public Policy can bring out some interesting behavior in folks, that much I would agree with wholeheartedly. It also seems to me that the calmer discussions tend to be elsewhere on the board - though I do see how issues posted on Public Policy can and do impact efforts at simple living. As a side note, that part of the board used to be called Simple Politics if I remember right. I arrived here in August of 2005 so it's been awhile but I am pretty sure it was called Simple Politics. It was a bit of a troll fest then. Rob
fest is right and maybe a little more fun.
gimmethesimplelife
4-25-13, 9:55pm
fest is right and maybe a little more fun.LOL Wow Iris Lilly!!! I was thinking of you as I posted the above as you were here before I was and would remember those days more than likely.....There were some posters who were a bit humourous in their trolldom I think lol but also some that were just downright annoying. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-25-13, 10:00pm
Awakened Soul.....Just wanted to say I'm glad you're thinking over leaving. You add a pleasant air to this board and I for one do hope you will end out staying.....Rob
Awakedsoul, if leaving is you choice, I will miss your comments. I guess among the diversity of members, each of us may have folks whose thoughts resonate, opinions we value, or experiences that are interesting. Your posts have rated highly with me in those respects. I think I understand where you are coming from.
flowerseverywhere
4-26-13, 4:41am
Awakened I can understand how you feel. One thing I have noticed is that there are certain vocal posters who never seem to post anything to do with simple living, but will jump right into any discussion where they can inject their opinions on any subject that allows them to express political or religious or in their minds moral beliefs. Kind of like schoolyard bullies. It reminds me of recent elections when politicians (of all parties) were left scratching their heads not realizing how out of touch they are and how they have alienated others. For that reason I also won't read any posts by certain posters. I don't feel like they will enhance my simple living journey.
So I view this forum as I do life. I take what is good and ignore what is bad. There are many great ideas about simple living which have enhanced my life and I am grateful for that. It is very easy to feel isolated when you don't buy into the consumer big box chain restaurant culture and this is a place that helps ease that isolation. I for one hope you and other like minded souls stay
I 'take what I like and leave the rest'.
One thing that I find encouraging about Simple Living as a philosophy is that it transcends politics, economic status & religion ---- although SL in my life is rooted in spirituality, is a political statement and has to do with money.
We all come from so many different areas of country, different socio-economic backgrounds, different religions -- some of us are FI and letting our $ make $ for us, some of us can't pay our next light bill - but we are all united in our own interpretations of the idea of Simple Living.
I love the Political Forum because on the occasion that I get something stuck in my craw I have a place to go hash it out and sometimes shout about it with trusted folks.
I sincerely feel like although we are all so different we are decent people and have each others' best interest at heart.
I remember phases on this board when people would really come for you - not fun.
To me this board is like the bar on Cheers. My life is so busy right now I can just occasionally pop my head in and see what people are kicking about, but at other times I've been able to belly up to the bar and spend all day.
I haven't been involved much in the recent gun discussions because I don't have time to fully follow the threads and I am very decided on my stance, so I don't even look there.
Now, if it's a thread about salad spinners... I'm all in and will leave my kids sitting on the curb waiting for me to pick them up!
awakenedsoul
4-26-13, 9:17am
Thanks for all the great advice, everybody. I decided not to cut off my nose to spite my face, as the old saying goes. Since I find 99% of the people here to be helpful and interesting, I would miss out on a lot by leaving.
bae,
This is the only thread where I have read any of your posts in the past few years. After the first couple of zingers aimed my way, I realized that you're not my kind of a person. You don't decide for me if my perceptions are based in reality or not. I decide that.
As my aunt used to tell me, "Consider the source."
Thanks again to everyone else for your wisdom and generosity. I really appreciate it.
Yippy! So happy you're not leaving, Awakenedsoul!
jennipurrr
4-26-13, 9:44am
I am glad to hear you aren't leaving. My advice is definitely stay away from the public policy forum. It just has a different vibe than the rest of the forums. I don't dislike it, but rarely visit as it is not peaceful to me...the conversations, although spirited, seem to bring out the worst in people.
Life_is_Simple
4-26-13, 10:32am
One thing about the public policy forum... I was reading a thread in 2011 and something disturbed me about the tone in it.
So what I did was opened a spreadsheet, listed the posters, and out of it came 2 lists: The Occasionals and the Contrarians. The Occasionals jumped in early with 1 or 2 posts, and stated their opinions. The Contrarians posted later, but there was post after post, and they kept posting well past the point where anyone was interested. There were 18 Occasionals, 3 Contrarians, and 4 Leaning Contrarian.
Another thread bothered me in 2012, so I did another spreadsheet, with the same results
The point of this is, try not to leave a forum because of a vocal minority.
awakenedsoul
4-26-13, 11:36am
Yeah. It reminds me of an alcoholic home.
Spreadsheets? Members being categorized according to an arbitrary perception of their beliefs or opinions? Perhaps simple living isn't as simple as I thought.
To me, the value of a discussion forum is in it's ability to showcase the diversity of thought and experience on a wide variey of topics within a voluntary community. Of course, I would never expect everyone to agree on every topic that might arise and I would never expect every member to be interested in every topic. Personally, I tend to avoid the vent threads where people complain about their parents/spouse/siblings/children/etc., and to be honest, I have no interest in diapers or one-sided workplace frustrations or salad spinners. It's easy enough to simply avoid those discussions and not get involved in the drama attached to them.
I'm glad that awakenedsoul has decided to stay, but I must admit that the negative attitudes displayed by some in this thread saddens me. It makes me wonder why so many people think drama is limited to the Public Policy forum.
ApatheticNoMore
4-26-13, 12:20pm
Avoid it then.
It can get rough, the only thing that's really driven me up the wall about PP is when I felt it was no longer debate but "hectoring" going on. Otherwise when I disagree I just shake my head. As for debate I (and I'm probably not alone) just don't interpret the world that way - debate as hostility - when really yea there's sometimes emotions involved, I'm not pretending toward Spock, but I see debate as really more some abstract intellectual thing, I don't see intellectual disagreement as pure emotional conflict IOW.
And well heaven help me but I'm an INTP so the abstractions used to interpret the world are endlessly interesting to me and it's interesting to see how it gets interpreted, however wrong I may think it is (and debate is sometimes a little exciting too - so if that's hostility it's well sublimated, like bear cubs at play, no harm, no foul ..... most of the time). Really sometimes just like an intellectual game, where I try to bring the best I have intellectually (haha sometimes it's not the best :P), up for the next round of competitive play (but we should be cooperative instead? maybe in work - not in every form of play - play being unserious anyway - the best I hope for is to get someone to think something they didn't before - not to change anyone's mind entirely presto chango). Getting someone to think something they didn't before (that is by no means something I personally came up with necessarily) may be some kind of basic calling for me, along with learning and teaching.
Originally posted by Alan.
the negative attitudes displayed by some in this thread saddens me. It makes me wonder why so many people think drama is limited to the Public Policy forum.Sounds like someone went without their morning coffee today.
gimmethesimplelife
4-26-13, 12:22pm
Count me in as glad you are not leaving either, Awakened Soul! Rob
ApatheticNoMore
4-26-13, 12:52pm
I'm glad that awakenedsoul has decided to stay, but I must admit that the negative attitudes displayed by some in this thread saddens me. It makes me wonder why so many people think drama is limited to the Public Policy forum.
I agree I find some of this thread more personally motivated than most going on in PP, which is only insulting one's politics if anything (again that level of detachment I have toward intellectual debates, I may despise someone's politics but it's not personal to me - besides the fact that how could it be personal to me when my *own* politics is *always* evolving? though basic views of life it is based on may not evolve that much but political positions do). Random put downs of mysterious others who are never named (but we might fall into a bad category on a spreadsheet), I find more personal than "guns are the best - I own 50 and brandish them about daily" (well ok then ...). I bend over backward to be personally polite frankly most of the time (once in a blue moon I might lose it ok, I also bend over backwards to try to be humble about that), but I figure then politeness is probably categorized as hostile due to intellectual disagreement. Oh well, not how I interpet the world.
Life_is_Simple
4-26-13, 1:17pm
Alan - It's more like in the workplace when we used to look at meeting processes. One of the things we did was assess "Balanced Participation." One person would draw the participants on a paper, then lines across as to who talked to who, to see who was talking more and who wasn't.
Usually you would see unbalanced-ness in the process.
One thing about the public policy forum... I was reading a thread in 2011 and something disturbed me about the tone in it.
So what I did was opened a spreadsheet, listed the posters, and out of it came 2 lists: The Occasionals and the Contrarians. The Occasionals jumped in early with 1 or 2 posts, and stated their opinions. The Contrarians posted later, but there was post after post, and they kept posting well past the point where anyone was interested. There were 18 Occasionals, 3 Contrarians, and 4 Leaning Contrarian.
Another thread bothered me in 2012, so I did another spreadsheet, with the same results
The point of this is, try not to leave a forum because of a vocal minority.Like most statistics, you don't account for the fact that many people may not even get around to reading a certain thread for days or weeks after it started. And may not start posting until they have caught up with all the posts - and some of the debates on the Politics forums are 20 pages or more long BEFORE someone actually gets around to being able to participate in the thread. This explains me to a tee. I don't have a computer or home internet access so I often don't even get to read a new thread until it's been up for days and it is already many posts and pages long. I respond to several posts in the thread while reading them, and they would all naturally be at the end of the thread and with multiple respones. There for it looks like I am in your catagory of "Contrarian" end-of-the-line posters - when the only reason is that I don't get to these forums that often and am lagging behind the other posters. I'm sure this is the case with many other people here. We don't all start participating in the beginning as you would in your business meeting.
ETA: Glad your are choosing to stay around Awakened soul - I sent you a pm too!
Excellent point, Life_is_Simple. That is one of my main beefs Re: the Public Policy Forum... members frequenting that forum and only that forum, while neglecting the other forums. We had the same issue/problem on the old forum/site.
I have no interest in salad spinners. . Heretic!!
awakenedsoul
4-26-13, 1:58pm
I just want to ask people who have PM'd me to please remember that the moderators can read all of your private messages. They aren't private. I received one that would be upsetting, and I don't want to cause any gossip or hurt feelings. If you send me a PM with your email, I can email you back off the site.
Spartana,
I got your PM. Thank you. I will send you one back.
I also wanted to express that I don't think all gun owners are the same. I used to be neutral on guns but now I am alarmed at what's been happening. My impression at the time of the post on the bombing was that some people were joking about it. I don't think learning how to make bombs on the Internet is funny. Spartana and I have discussed it, she's my favorite poster, and I wasn't referring to anyone personally. My brother died recently and that marathon triggered a lot of grief for me. I felt like people on that thread were acting like it was no big deal, that he didn't kill that many people, and I think it was horrific. But, I don't base my entire opinion of a person on one post.
I just want to ask people who have PM'd me to please remember that the moderators can read all of your private messages. They aren't private.
That's not correct. Neither moderators or administrators can see private messages.
Originally posted by Awakenedsoul.
please remember that the moderators can read all of your private messages.Absolutely not. Private messages via the private message feature are 100% private and cannot be accessed by anyone other than the user.
Heretic!!
Spartana, LOL! :D
I don't think learning how to make bombs on the Internet is funny. Spartana and I have discussed it, she's my favorite poster .Well thank you! As I said in my PM to you, I readily admit that I often make too many jokes that are often in bad taste - or just plain bad :-)! - under certain circumstances that may be offensive to some people - and for that I do apoligize to anyone who I may offend with my seeming insensitivity. But I use humor - like joking about how you can buy the "Anarchist's Cookbook" online for $3.95 - as a way of showing irony rather than trying to be offensive. I DO find it extremely ironic that you can learn everything there is to know about everything in the known universe online (and most of us think that's a good thing overall) but that people get appalled to learn that terrible things are available there too.
I realized that you're not my kind of a person.
LOL, nothing add credibility to complaints about the lack of civility around here more than taking gratuitous shots at people.>8)
LOL, nothing add credibility to complaints about the lack of civility around here more than taking gratuitous shots at people.>8)
I agree.
Two words: Kuhn Rikon.
http://kuhnrikon.com/images/database/product_glam_1_12.gif
One word: power cord. Oh wait...
Is there a spreadsheet for pressure cooking braggarts? Can I join? :devil:
Well thank you! As I said in my PM to you, I readily admit that I often make too many jokes that are often in bad taste - or just plain bad :-)! - under certain circumstances that may be offensive to some people - and for that I do apoligize to anyone who I may offend with my seeming insensitivity. But I use humor - like joking about how you can buy the "Anarchist's Cookbook" online for $3.95 - as a way of showing irony rather than trying to be offensive. I DO find it extremely ironic that you can learn everything there is to know about everything in the known universe online (and most of us think that's a good thing overall) but that people get appalled to learn that terrible things are available there too.
There's some unofficial rule of thumb among comics about how soon is too soon to start making jokes about horrifying current events. Humor is one way we face our fears (and one of the better ways, IMO). As far as the Anarchist's Cookbook is concerned, one of my hippie friends used to check it out of the library regularly as some kind of political statement--I think that was the idea. At any rate, they were as much of a pacifist as anyone else I know.
Well, I guess we've established that drama isn't confined to Public Policy. I had a chance to be a mod in that category on the old boards for a few years and now here. It was livelier in the past. Even so that is still the arena we have to discuss large scale issues that, like it or not, affect every one of us here. Most people here, just like most people in the US, Canada or other countries, are content not thinking about issues on that level. Fine. Others aren't comfortable relegating their future to the powers that be without giving some input or discussing what other options might exist. PP is the place for that on these boards.
On a slightly different note, on the old boards Dave once mentioned that participants in the public policy section tended to donate at a high rate. I have no stats and don't know if it is tracked at all on these boards, but it does make sense because those are people who tend to be involved in the mechanics of life. As a forum like this is always in a fundraising mode that begs the rhetorical question: have you donated to keep your favorite part of these forums going? (No answer please, just consider what your answer would be.)
awakenedsoul
4-27-13, 11:28am
I've donated. At first I wanted to read the Public Policy posts because I thought it would be interesting to get a
perspective on politics from those who lived simply. Because of the combativeness of some of the posters, I stopped reading. I read articles on line and books from the library. As I get older, I am more interested in politics. I would be very interested in reading and posting about current events if the moderation was stronger and people there were respectful to each other. I'm not trying to attack you Gregg, I just find the attitude there (from some people) to be too chauvenistic. I like the male input on this forum, so I stick to posts by the men here who exemplify simple living to me. for example, you, Steve, Rogar, and Rob. (Sorry if I left some men out...I'm sure I did.) These are the people that come to mind. They discuss things reasonably and don't denigrate women. I'm still seeing snarkiness from some of those men, and it's never corrected. For example, I just read a nasty one liner by junkman directed at iris lily. In my opinion, she's
the funniest poster here. I don't like these immature attacks.
The description of the PP forum says it is friendly. I think it could be something great. I'd love to participate. One PM I received said that some people who are perfectly nice and reasonable on other parts of the forum act like a completely different person when posting on PP. I think that's true. That's why I stick with the other areas. Or, I might discuss something political in PM, (I've done that with Spartana and Rob,) because I know that even if we disagree, it's not going to turn into right fighting.
Well, I guess we've established that drama isn't confined to Public Policy. I had a chance to be a mod in that category on the old boards for a few years and now here. It was livelier in the past. Even so that is still the arena we have to discuss large scale issues that, like it or not, affect every one of us here. Most people here, just like most people in the US, Canada or other countries, are content not thinking about issues on that level. Fine. Others aren't comfortable relegating their future to the powers that be without giving some input or discussing what other options might exist. PP is the place for that on these boards.
On a slightly different note, on the old boards Dave once mentioned that participants in the public policy section tended to donate at a high rate. I have no stats and don't know if it is tracked at all on these boards, but it does make sense because those are people who tend to be involved in the mechanics of life. As a forum like this is always in a fundraising mode that begs the rhetorical question: have you donated to keep your favorite part of these forums going? (No answer please, just consider what your answer would be.)
I have to feel for the moderators. Outside the crudest ad hominem attacks, how do you satisfy some standard of sensitivity that will satisfy the spectrum from finely tuned {{{hug hug hug}}} political correctness to Mad Max libertarianism? Are there certain topics (guns, abortion, Obamacare, the infield fly rule) upon which the acceptable position is established ipse dixit and that it is impermissible to deviate from without giving offense?
How do you please the the whole room outside certain isolation cells at Gitmo?
iris lily
4-27-13, 12:15pm
I have to feel for the moderators. Outside the crudest ad hominem attacks, how do you satisfy some standard of sensitivity that will satisfy the spectrum from finely tuned {{{hug hug hug}}} political correctness to Mad Max libertarianism? Are there certain topics (guns, abortion, Obamacare, the infield fly rule) upon which the acceptable position is established ipse dixit and that it is impermissible to deviate from without giving offense?
How do you please the the whole room outside certain isolation cells at Gitmo?
Moderating is a no win situation and that's why I think it is a waste of time. To have Moderators gives the impression to people here that Big Dogs will step in to right their wrongs. It's paternalistic. I want to--and can--take care of myself here.
There's some unofficial rule of thumb among comics about how soon is too soon to start making jokes about horrifying current events. Humor is one way we face our fears (and one of the better ways, IMO). As far as the Anarchist's Cookbook is concerned, one of my hippie friends used to check it out of the library regularly as some kind of political statement--I think that was the idea. At any rate, they were as much of a pacifist as anyone else I know.Of course that book is on the FBI terrorist watchlist and with the Patriot Act your friend may be getting "tagged" everytime he checks it out. Wonder how much of internet use is tagged also? Does a little bell go off at the FBI or CIA everytime someone types a word that would be "terror" related? If that's the case we are all doomed to be on a no fly list - probably a good thing nowadays :-)!
I just find the attitude there (from some people) to be too chauvenistic. I like the male input on this forum, so I stick to posts by the men here who exemplify simple living to me. for example, you, Steve, Rogar, and Rob. (Sorry if I left some men out...I'm sure I did.) These are the people that come to mind. They discuss things reasonably and don't denigrate women. I'm still seeing snarkiness from some of those men, and it's never corrected. For example, I just read a nasty one liner by junkman directed at iris lily. In my opinion, she's
the funniest poster here. I don't like these immature attacks.
.I don't see any of the guys here behavior or comments as being chauvanistic or degrading towards women - I actually see the opposite as I think they show a pretty good sense of enlightenment and equality compared to some guys I know IRL. I see that they are just blunt and to the point with everyone - whether male or female. It's just their way of speaking overall. It may seem harsh to more sensitive people but I just see it as being their way of communicating. I see the same way of communicating from many of the females here too. Very direct and pointed. I actually like that way of communicating myself so never take it as anything personal. And of course since everyone has a different way of communitcating both online and IRL, there are always going to be people who rub us the wrong way no matter what they say just because of the way they say something. A poster who some people enjoy talking with, is someone who angers or frustrates another person by their demeaner. For instance I always liked Baes posts and enjoy his comments even when they can be harsh sometimes ( I see them as direct and to the point rather than harsh) where as I know Awakenedsoul said earlier that she feels hurt or insulted by some of his posts (and he may have said somethings to her personally that WERE insulting or hurtful but I didn't see them). She is a more sensitive and kindly person than me and so sees and feels things differently. Not really anything anyone can do about that. Like LDahl pointed out, you can't moderate posts based on different levels of sensitivity to topics - and nor should you IMHO. As long as people refrain from name calling and overly snarky personal attacks then mods shouldn't get involved with directing the threads.
ETA: As for Iris Lily - I have no doubt that she would kick Junkmans hiney-end to the curb in a heartbeat if she felt slighted by a comment of his. She definetly is a person who will stand up for herself. She even scares me sometimes :-)!
Moderating is a no win situation and that's why I think it is a waste of time. To have Moderators gives the impression to people here that Big Dogs will step in to right their wrongs. It's paternalistic. I want to--and can--take care of myself here.
I tend to incline toward your view on that. If someone needs to exorcise their demons by extravagantly taking or giving offense, I just consider it the cost of doing business in a relatively free society. If there's such an environment of nastiness, fatuity or self-righteousness that it becomes tedious, I can always change the channel. To me, the essence of living simply is wasting as little time as possible: whether on high-maintenence possessions or internet blatherskites.
As long as we're singing Iris lily's praises, one of my favorite responses from her was when I had posted my opinion, and someone with a stronger way with words (can't remember who) disagreed, so I softened my response, after which Iris lily scolded me, something like, "For God's sake, don't back down!" I actually took that one post as a good lesson. Thanks, IL!
awakenedsoul
4-27-13, 3:01pm
Glad to see you started your own thread, Spartana. I'm going to be moving on. I wish everyone well.
I'll just be on a trip for awhile - as of yet to parts unknown - but will post when I return. Hope to see you here when I get back Awakened soul. Best of luck whatever way you go.
Moderating is a no win situation and that's why I think it is a waste of time. To have Moderators gives the impression to people here that Big Dogs will step in to right their wrongs. It's paternalistic. I want to--and can--take care of myself here.
Yes you do, and very well I might add. I may not always agree with you, but you are always willing to step up and say what you want to say without calling for 'moderation'.
In fact, after taking a trip around the internet, I'm always pleased at how folks on this site can argue, disagree, get positively hot under the collar without profanity, or dirty name calling. Which, I think is a clue to the need/success of the politics forum. It's a 'safe' place to let off steam, get responses of varying degrees and answer back with your true feelings.
It's what we need. We don't need to stifle discussion and disagreement, we just need to keep it fair. Isn't that what they call fair fighting? Disagreement with civility.
flowerseverywhere
4-27-13, 11:28pm
[QUOTE=Gregg;139491]
On a slightly different note, on the old boards Dave once mentioned that participants in the public policy section tended to donate at a high rate. QUOTE] this cracks me up. It's all about money after all...
Wildflower
4-28-13, 5:02am
[QUOTE=Gregg;139491]
On a slightly different note, on the old boards Dave once mentioned that participants in the public policy section tended to donate at a high rate. QUOTE] this cracks me up. It's all about money after all...
I do remember on the old boards there were some that were banned for fairly minor offenses. And then there were some who could get by with saying anything, that others would have been banned for in an instant. I decided then that they must be donating quite a bit of money for them to be kept on....
It's always all about the money! :doh:
Awakened Soul, I hope you continue to be a contributing member here. I have enjoyed your posts. :)
IshbelRobertson
4-28-13, 9:02am
i've only complained to Mods ( yes, I know I am one, but wasn't then!) once -and that was on the old boards, when I felt I was being singled out by another member who kept posting anti-British stuff and ridiculing me, personally.
I seem to recall being told to grow a thicker skin... Although not stated as bluntly as that!
awakenedsoul, I'm one of those who really value your posts and am glad your staying. Plus, I appreciate you (when you thought you were leaving) and Spartana (will be gone for just a while) telling us these things. It's incredibly considerate, plus acknowledges that we all mean important things to each other.
iris lily
4-28-13, 12:40pm
I do remember on the old boards there were some that were banned for fairly minor offenses. And then there were some who could get by with saying anything, that others would have been banned for in an instant. I decided then that they must be donating quite a bit of money for them to be kept on....
It's always all about the money! :doh:...
Having endured a lecture from one of the long-winded Moderators of the time about how Moderators didn't know who contributed and that wouldn't make any difference anyway if they did know, I would say that either you are wrong or she was loosey with the facts.
Since the donation board made it clear who donated and gave an indication of relatively how much, and anyone with half a brain could match real names of major donors with screen names, it seemed specious for her to claim that moderators didn't know. But whatever.
And there's nothing wrong with it being about the money. The old board site was commercial, just not a very successful one. I'm glad that NRM took us on.
Wildflower
4-29-13, 1:59am
Having endured a lecture from one of the long-winded Moderators of the time about how Moderators didn't know who contributed and that wouldn't make any difference anyway if they did know, I would say that either you are wrong or she was loosey with the facts.
Since the donation board made it clear who donated and gave an indication of relatively how much, and anyone with half a brain could match real names of major donors with screen names, it seemed specious for her to claim that moderators didn't know. But whatever.
And there's nothing wrong with it being about the money. The old board site was commercial, just not a very successful one. I'm glad that NRM took us on.
IL, I'm sure I could be wrong, but there certainly was some favoritism on the old boards for whatever reason.
I never looked at the donation board, don't recall knowing there was one. I had the old message boards bookmarked and went straight to that, bypassing everything else....
"Anyone with half a brain" Not nice.....but hey, I have thick skin.
I was going to post in response to these allegations this morning, but thought i would let it sit for awhile. Since it keeps being tossed around, as the only moderator left from the old team I can say with confidence that we never took into account someone's status as a donor when discussing moderation issues. Whether or not someone had donated was never an issue when we were discussing what action to take in relation to any request for/perceived need for moderation. And we did not have any knowledge of who donated other than the publicly available record IL refers to, which as far as I know nobody bothered to track very closely. In the current version of the forums, the only people who know who has donated are Rozie and the moderator rep to the NRM board. The rest of the mod team knows nothing other than the general figures that have been posted publicly.
In the current version of the forums, the only people who know who has donated are Rozie and the moderator rep to the NRM board. The rest of the mod team knows nothing other than the general figures that have been posted publicly.
Being the forum rep on the NRM Board, I can assure you that I don't know who donates what, if anything, and don't want to know as it seems to me to be an invasion of privacy.
Speaking of donations, I need to post the first quarter financials which are pretty dismal. I'll try to get to that later today.
Wow. I am amazed at this thread, which started, blossomed, blew up and down, and more in the few days I was away from the forums. I will miss awakenedsoul, if I understand correctly that her last decision was to depart. I like the forums but don't take them too seriously. I like most of the posters here and don't dislike any. I have often found extremely useful information here and most of it was NOT about simple living. And I like having a place where many people are focused on living a less consumption-driven life. However, Alan's post reminds me that it is a new quarter and I have to go find the donate button again.
Peace to all, posters, lurkers and others.
Being the forum rep on the NRM Board, I can assure you that I don't know who donates what, if anything, and don't want to know as it seems to me to be an invasion of privacy.
Speaking of donations, I need to post the first quarter financials which are pretty dismal. I'll try to get to that later today.
We (mods) didn't know who donated what on the old boards either. The only information we really had was just in conversations with Dave. To those who get a giggle from saying "its all about the money", you're either off base or just trying to make a catch phrase stick where it doesn't belong. Simple living is about finding value. If you find some here you should be willing to donate. If not, there are other resources on the 'net that might be more to your liking. As for the ones who do find these forums valuable, Alan's statement above shows that we (collectively) need to step up to the plate. It's not ALL about the money, but this isn't Neverland either. If the forum participants don't support it the forum will go away.
Regarding moderation, its like the old story of the daughter who asks her mom why she cuts the end off the ham. Mom says because her mom did it. They ask grandma who says she did because HER mom did it. They go to great-grandma and ask why do you cut the end off the ham? Great-grandma says that in the old days all she had was a small pan that a whole ham wouldn't fit in. Moderation is an equally antiquated practice, but we've always done it this way. In a community of adults it should never be needed (IMO).
The description of the PP forum says it is friendly. I think it could be something great. I'd love to participate. One PM I received said that some people who are perfectly nice and reasonable on other parts of the forum act like a completely different person when posting on PP. I think that's true. That's why I stick with the other areas. Or, I might discuss something political in PM, (I've done that with Spartana and Rob,) because I know that even if we disagree, it's not going to turn into right fighting.
We all edit the list of what to participate in by using a whole list of filters. In large part I stay out of the Spiritual & Religious discussion threads. Not that I don't enjoy discussing such topics, but my personal views aren't going to help anyone find happiness if they happen to follow organized paths so I just take the live and let live approach. Having a familiar core group in PP allows some of the political correctness to be set aside. For better or worse, a lot of us get kind of fed up with the whole PC thing. Its like intellectual water boarding. I won't presume to speak for others, but its refreshing for me to be able to drop the PC from time to time. The unfortunate consequence is that blunt words and strong opinions can com across as rude or even demeaning when there is no such intent. All in all I will always fall on the 'drop the PC and say what's on your mind' side of the fence, but that won't work for everyone. As I've said awakenedsoul, input from people with your skill set and your view of the world are a critical piece of puzzle so I hope you'll consider at least occasional participation on the forums. Either way...peace.
Wow, this thread did go in many different directions but I suppose that is the charm of a threads, you never know where it will end up.
SteveinMN
4-29-13, 12:09pm
So as a relatively new member (though one who has donated once), I will ask: is there any kind of summary of operating costs so we can get an idea what our contribution should be? Another board I'm on we're given the monthly hosting cost and we can figure out among ourselves what an average donation would be; it's then up to individuals to donate that amount or less or more.
Mods: if it's timely and sensible to do so, please move this to a separate thread or let me know and I'll do that.
On Wampler's site (the former website of this forum) he like to bring in around $10,000 - $12,000 if I remember correctly. That was a commercial site.
We run leaner and meaner now.
Steve, see the thread I just started here: http://www.simplelivingforum.net/showthread.php?8041-Forum-Financial-Update-1st-Qtr-2013
awakenedsoul
4-29-13, 1:45pm
I've thought about this thread, and realized that the reason I was having problems here is that my values are completely different than those of the people who run this forum.
My professional background is as a performer in Broadway shows, movies, television and film. I worked with many of the old stars. In my field, if there is a discrepancy, you do not argue during rehearsals. You keep your cool and focus on the work. You go to the dance captain in private, explain the conflict, and ask them to look at it. They evaluate the situation, fix the cause of the problem, talk to the other party, and it's resolved. Things ran very smoothly and professionally in the 15 years I spent as a dancer. There was no arguing. We were all very self motivated and self disciplined.
I researched here yesterday what to do if you have a problem with another person on the forum. What I didn't know is that here, you are supposed to tell the person yourself. Then, if it's still happening, you contact a moderator. I've had a few people post obnoxious one liners, or butcher a quote of mine, made a caustic, deragatory remark, and get away with it. They work in a group, and they're very cliquish. I've contacted a couple of moderators, and they say to ignore it. Or, they don't respond.
To clarify, I wasn't defending irislily, I was using that as an example of the types of posts from junkman, buu, yossarian, and bae that I find offensive. Spartana's impression that my feelings were hurt is not at all what I felt. I find the behavior of these posters, repulsive, disgusting, and immature. I'm not interested in fighting on line with irislily. To me, it's a waste of my time and energy.
Other posts say that I'm not credible. If I mention something I have learned from a friend, (in one case it was an attorney who is also an accountant and was a principal dancer at Pittsburgh Ballet,) that is mocked. I find it appalling that none of this is corrected. I can see why people were banned on the old site. No wonder so many say the old forum was better. As far as I'm concerned, the inmates are running the assylum. (And I don't mean the majority of the people here. I mean a select few.)
People here say as if it's an absolute truth, "We don't need moderation." I couldn't disagree more. These people who are poisoning your forum have no respect, no boundaries, and no self control. They're addicted to fighting and are driving off new members.
The one time I did see moderation was from redfox. The posters she addressed reacted like angry children and attacked her. "Good feedback," she told them. It's just unreal to me....
The rest of the place is peaceful and constructive. I will still send a donation in appreciation of that.
flowerseverywhere
4-29-13, 2:13pm
To those who get a giggle from saying "its all about the money", you're either off base or just trying to make a catch phrase stick where it doesn't belong. Simple living is about finding value. If you find some here you should be willing to donate. ).
That was me. I have donated most of the years in the past. I never in a million years would have made any assumption there was any correlation between who donated and which forum they posted in until you posted it. I must have misread your meaning as I took it to mean that more leeway was given in the politics forum because they donated more. I am not sure why that fact was relevent if that was not the case. So your interpretation that I was off base or trying to make a catchphrase stick was incorrect. See how easy it is to make false assumptions?
http://icecreamjournal.turkeyhill.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/dairy-month-giant-sundae.jpg
That was me. I have donated most of the years in the past. I never in a million years would have made any assumption there was any correlation between who donated and which forum they posted in until you posted it. I must have misread your meaning as I took it to mean that more leeway was given in the politics forum because they donated more. I am not sure why that fact was relevent if that was not the case. So your interpretation that I was off base or trying to make a catchphrase stick was incorrect. See how easy it is to make false assumptions?
Point well taken flowerseverywhere, I stand corrected. Just to be clear, no leeway more or less is given to any individual forum or for that matter any individual, donor or otherwise. That is not to say that some forums, especially PP, don't have a little more going on that some will feel calls for moderation. The reasons are probably obvious. Not many people end up raising their voices or pounding a fist on a table when discussing the virtues of cloth vs. disposable diapers, how to deal with an overbearing relative, what variety of squash in most prolific or how to declutter a basement. Politics, along with religion, are two of very few subjects that predictably get people going. PP plays by the same rules as the rest of the forums and the posters there are conscious of those rules without the need for constant mod input. It's not so much that lines are crossed in PP as it is that the lines are never even approached elsewhere on the boards. Everything is relative.
IL, I'm sure I could be wrong, but there certainly was some favoritism on the old boards for whatever reason.
I never looked at the donation board, don't recall knowing there was one. I had the old message boards bookmarked and went straight to that, bypassing everything else....
"Anyone with half a brain" Not nice.....but hey, I have thick skin.
Frankly, I figured for for a while that I was given some leeway because I wrote checks. That was just my theory, no real way to test that. I wanted a history of donations behind me if I ever wanted to engage Dave Wampler in disucssion about moderation on those old boards. It was a commercial site, the guy wanted financial compensation to host it. Nothing wrong with that.
But all of this is just speculation and I don't claim insider knowledge, I'm just spinning theories for fun's sake as are all conspiracy theories.
I find the behavior of these posters, repulsive, disgusting, and immature.
Really? Isn't that ironic because everytime I read your posts in this thread I think to myself "when is she going to grow up?" You claim to be a nice person, but you are the only one I see here saying snarky things about other people. And complaining that, heavens, if you have a problem with someone you should be an adult and take it up with them directly. How horrible.
There has been plenty of stuff I have found objectionable here over the years, I'm sure that's true for many (or if you hang out in the PP section, maybe most) people. But you know what, and I'm sure this is true for others, some of the people who I have found objectionable actually gave me insights into how others that I don't ordinarily associate with think. And for that I am grateful. And even if I don't dig the new umbrella, I think the moderation and administration today is the best it has been in decades.
Someone said earlier thanks for letting everyone know you were leaving. I've always thought such "goodbye" messages were just narcissitic attempts for attention. If anyone wants to go they can just leave, so IMHO they are an online version of a fake suicide attempt to get attention. So everyone will say nice things about you. And that's fine if that's what you need, but why not leave the rest of us out of your little teenage drama.
Dang bae, your gonna need some help with all that ice cream. Headed your way with a spoon.
Honestly, I think this might be generational.
We have largely transitioned from hierarchical structures (how your work environment was managed) to more flattened working models, but beyond this, an internet forum is not a professional working environment with specific work needs. The internet is largely democratized (a flattened hierarchical model).
These flattened models require much more self discipline and regulation than a hierarchical model where you can trust that someone else will solve your problems. And, while that might be extremely relevant in the work environment that you describe -- and in many other work environments besides -- it is not relevant in this circumstance.
This is, largely, an elective organization with volunteer moderators whose primary work is to prevent spam and trolling. Trolling can be defined narrowly or broadly, and based on my experience of trolling, I cannot characterize even the most inflammatory posts that I've seen here as trolling.
In terms of self discipline and self regulation, it really is up to the individual as to how they conduct themselves online and to whom they respond. It is common practice to suggest that if a poster upsets you, that you "ignore" them. For as long as I can remember this function has existed in the code of these sorts of message boards, which means that this is understood to be the first port-of-call or behavior when someone's statements or behaviors "bother" you.
From there, you can also regulate which parts of forums you choose to read, which threads you choose to participate in or not, and from there, generally avoid individuals with whom you feel there is conflict. And of course, you also always have the option to leave the board altogether if you feel that it is not valuable to you.
In my opinion, this board is extremely tame. It is tame in the extreme of extremes. There have been several heated threads over my time here -- but none of them would border on inappropriate. I might consider some statements or methods inflammatory, but certainly not abusive and in need of moderation (editing/"correcting") or banning.
Finally, I have to say that I do not like being characterized as needing an asylum or being an inmate who is running the asylum. I do not like the implication that I am incapable of caring for myself, or that any of us are such that we would need the level of care that a person in an asylum requires in terms of moderation. I, personally, find that sort of statement offensive.
We are all perfectly sane (I assume), intelligent adults capable of moderating our selves effectively so that the moderator's time (as volunteers) isn't spent solving petty arguments that two adults could solve quickly on their own, or one adult could solve quickly by simply using the "ignore" function, or instead of using that function, just not read threads or parts of the board that are likely to incite or upset that person.
rosarugosa
4-29-13, 7:54pm
I think this has turned into a pretty interesting thread in terms of members' discussing their online social wants/needs/expectations. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Peggy & Alan really enjoy their skirmishes in the PP forum, and either would be much dismayed if they had to start pulling their punches. And I say let them go for it! Sometimes I look to PP because I can get a wide range of well argued viewpoints. Maybe that forum should have some sort of warning that things can get a bit rough in there? I do recall someone saying they thought an interaction in that forum led bunnys to depart.
Yossarian slammed me when I was a newcomer on the old forum, when I started a thread asking what people thought about trying to buy more Made in America items. He called me a racist among other things. Others defended me (I really was only looking for opinions and input) and I guess I am somewhat thick-skinned, so I'm still around. But I think if we enjoy hearing new voices on the Forums, we should try not to scare people away.
I too am somewhat put off by these good-bye notes, "I'm Breaking up with the Forums,", although I think it's actually considerate when someone like Spartana tells us she won't be around for awhile because she is travelling. But maybe we should consider them more like exit interviews and look for something useful in the feedback rather than getting defensive about it.
Steve, see the thread I just started here: http://www.simplelivingforum.net/showthread.php?8041-Forum-Financial-Update-1st-Qtr-2013
Alan, that's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. Thanks!
Wildflower
4-29-13, 8:50pm
Why is there only a handful of people posting these days? Why do lurkers not post, and why do new members post once or twice, then never return? Something has changed here ALOT, as opposed to the old boards where there was a large and interesting variety of members posting. Here it is the same group posting always, with a handful that have huge egos and seem to think they run the place, with an attitude that is obviously running off newbies, and trying to intimidate some of us regular posters. I wouldn't be surprised if more don't turn away, it's not a fun, informative place to be anymore....just the same handful of people posting their boring opinions over and over, only to insult anyone else that doesn't agree.
I won't say goodbye when I leave, because I know no one cares, but I don't think this SLN message board will survive unless attitudes change. I suppose though that the few left posting, that want to finance themselves, will continue on....
Tussiemussies
4-29-13, 8:52pm
Why is there only a handful of people posting these days? Why do lurkers not post, and why do new members post once or twice, then never return? Something has changed here ALOT, as opposed to the old boards where there was a large and interesting variety of members posting. Here it is the same group posting always, with a handful that have huge egos and seem to think they run the place, with an attitude that is obviously running off newbies, and trying to intimidate some of us regular posters. I wouldn't be surprised if more don't turn away, it's not a fun, informative place to be anymore....just the same handful of people posting their boring opinions over and over, only to insult anyone else that doesn't agree.
I won't say goodbye when I leave, because I know no one cares, but I don't think this SLN message board will survive unless attitudes change. I suppose though that the few left posting, that want to finance themselves, will continue on....
Wildflower, I most definitely would miss you if you left!!!
Wildflower
4-29-13, 10:08pm
Thank you, Tussie. I sent you a PM, but I guess you need to clean out your Inbox before it will accept new messages.... that's the message I got when I sent it.
Here it is the same group posting always, with a handful that have huge egos and seem to think they run the place, with an attitude that is obviously running off newbies, and trying to intimidate some of us regular posters. I wouldn't be surprised if more don't turn away, it's not a fun, informative place to be anymore....just the same handful of people posting their boring opinions over and over, only to insult anyone else that doesn't agree.
I guess I'm one of those with a huge ego because that is not my impression at all. Perhaps the reason we are not drawing in many new members is because we're old and boring. The success of any community anywhere involves retaining the younger generation and having access to a flow of new ideas. Without that you stagnate. The younger folks I know want to be engaged. I'm around the PP boards as much as anyone and like it because its really the only spot on the boards where people actually debate. If the younger set looks at these forums they will see the one section where ideas are freely expressed and deliberated and the other sections that are mostly information exchanges. I'm not discounting the value of that, but they are the Google generation so they already know how to get information. It very well might be that its not PP chasing people away, its that the rest of the boards don't have enough going on to draw them in.
I agree with rosarugosa: this has turned into kind a funny group therapy session for a big dysfunctional family! I imagine us like 5x bigger than the family in Little Miss Sunshine, and we're bouncing around on the Web as if we were in an old hippie VW van with each of our own "suchness" sometimes causing bumps, and other times joy.
C'est la vie! I'm used to dysfunctional families--heck I started one of my own, so I can just embrace the goodness and ignore the rest. (For me that means staying out of the shark tank -- PP)
In reading these comments about posting variety, I was surprised as I thought a number of new names had come up with really good posts.
People come and go and they do in real life so that is normal as well to me.
FWIW, I learn a lot about mindsets of different parts of NA and elsewhere so gain insights from all the posts.
This a very diverse and interesting group IMHO!!
I think this has turned into a pretty interesting thread in terms of members' discussing their online social wants/needs/expectations. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Peggy & Alan really enjoy their skirmishes in the PP forum, and either would be much dismayed if they had to start pulling their punches. And I say let them go for it! Sometimes I look to PP because I can get a wide range of well argued viewpoints. Maybe that forum should have some sort of warning that things can get a bit rough in there? I do recall someone saying they thought an interaction in that forum led bunnys to depart.
Yossarian slammed me when I was a newcomer on the old forum, when I started a thread asking what people thought about trying to buy more Made in America items. He called me a racist among other things. Others defended me (I really was only looking for opinions and input) and I guess I am somewhat thick-skinned, so I'm still around. But I think if we enjoy hearing new voices on the Forums, we should try not to scare people away.
I too am somewhat put off by these good-bye notes, "I'm Breaking up with the Forums,", although I think it's actually considerate when someone like Spartana tells us she won't be around for awhile because she is travelling. But maybe we should consider them more like exit interviews and look for something useful in the feedback rather than getting defensive about it.
Well, I DO like a good political discussion, and I can usually get it here. My own better half doesn't like arguing politics, except with like minded people (the whole avoiding conflict thing)
I don't particularly like the snarky one liners either simply because they don't really add anything to the discussion. They are just drive-by snark.
I think you are right Gregg, about the interests of younger folks. I'll bet a poll of ages here would find us mostly older. I know I wasn't interested in gardening and simple living when I was young. That may be partly due to actually BEING young, and partly being a POOR YOUNG person. Being forced to live simply due to finances as opposed to choosing it will give you a much different perspective.
I will say, if someone is offended by the directness of some on this board, then I can't imagine them finding ANY safe harbor on the net. There are some pretty nasty folks out there, and I am so grateful I can come here, have a good rousing discussion, and walk away unharmed. Sure, some posts really get my hackles up, but more often than not I step away, think about it, then file it under either worth thinking about or discarding. And sometimes, we just have to agree to disagree. Kind of like real life.:)
And sometimes, we just have to agree to disagree.
Ha! Believe that if you must peggy, but resistance is futile.
Originally posted by Gregg.
If the younger set looks at these forums they will see the one section where ideas are freely expressed and deliberated and the other sections that are mostly information exchanges. I'm not discounting the value of that, but they are the Google generation so they already know how to get information. It very well might be that its not PP chasing people away, its that the rest of the boards don't have enough going on to draw them in.Maybe... but the Google generation won't find actual hands-on experience and knowledge (on the web) like we have here... I'm talking true experience and knowledge from people who have actually lived, slept, and eat, what they preach.
Information places like ours, are few and far between, at least in the context of affording those who are interested the ability to glean information/advice from people you can readily communicate with, not just some written (boring) content that someone (whoever) compiled and made available for general viewers to take or leave.
I for one still learn a great deal from members here, and on that front, I enjoy being an active, participating member, but visiting here as a regular and seeing such lackluster effort made by so many lately, is a turn-off, which by the way, a few other members share, too... I know, because I've had offline discussions with a few who also share the same sentiment.
Sad part is, seems there's little interest in wanting to improve the standings around here. We have a few (handful) who care, a bunch that balance themselves on the fence, and 1700 something (and counting) who don't give a damn.
Wildflower. I could have written your entry, to the letter!
Maybe... but the Google generation won't find actual hands-on experience and knowledge (on the web) like we have here... I'm talking true experience and knowledge from people who have actually lived, slept, and eat, what they preach.
That's true, I'm just not sure they care. Nowadays, if you want to can tomatoes and aren't sure how you don't have to post here and wait for a reply or call Aunt Polly to come help. You can just pull out your phone, watch a 4 minute You-tube video and you're off to the races. For better or worse, that's how the next generation does things. When you boil it down information is information. Anything that can be learned from that proverbial Aunt can probably be found online. The main difference is simply the delivery medium. What was once stories handed down for generations has been transformed into bits and bites floating in a cloud. It's really just evolution at work. FWIW, I also prefer face to face encounters, but that doesn't make the actual information any better than what than what I can find online, only the experience.
I first found SL via an internet search after reading YMOYL and I was interested in the idea of FI. At that time, the site had a wonderful finance/investment section. Jonathan was great and the site felt very welcoming, supportive and friendly.
Some time ago (a couple of years maybe), I posted a question on the finance boards here and I received one response and a very harsh one at that. I was shocked at the level of disrespect in that response and was disappointed that no one from the moderating team came in to say that that behavior was not in line with this site's mission. I certainly will not post again in that forum (pretty sad considering that's the forum that brought me in) and I have limited my engagement a great deal. If that interaction had been my first foray into this site, I would not have returned. As it is, I had invited a friend to join the site so she could read the responses to my question as she was interested in that topic as well. I was embarrassed by the response I did get and apologized for wasting her time. I used to recommend this site all the time when I first found it. Not anymore.
I think it's sad that now that we are under the NRM umbrella (which I am happy about) the financial aspect of SL and the goal of FI has virtually disappeared from the site. It seems that many people have drifted over to the MMM site for lack of one here.
I avoid the PP forum. I don't know if that forum is sucking the energy from the rest of the site or not. What I do know is that I find the energy there very negative.
Watergoddess. I apologize for failing you. Yes, I am a Moderator, but will admit that I very rarely visit the Financial Forum. I don't understand finances on the level they are discussed on this forum, and in addition to, I struggle with reading, so entries that aren't broken-up into separate paragraphs, I automatically disregard, same goes for overly long-winded entries.
I'm not making up excuses, but possibly, I may have missed the objectionable post directed at you, because. Sorry to hear of your less than desirable experience Re:.
ApatheticNoMore
4-30-13, 12:16pm
Basic thoughts about new people joining the forum: is this forum even anything anyone is likely to come about in a keyword search? And what keywords? Is "simple living" even a "hot" concept anymore? That's not a judgement on the worth of the topic, just the trendiness and keywordability etc.. Some may see the problem as new members not wanting to stay on, I see it as not many new people finding the forum in the first place. Because from what I've seen of the 'net new people trying stuff out briefly and quitting is TYPICAL, incredibly typical. You just need to get enough new people that some people hang on to make up for attrition, which is also incredibly typical, it's typical for people to come and go from internet hangouts.
Information IMO is of only so much value by itself (and I say that even though I'm kind of an information sponge). You spend x years of your life sitting quietly in class absorbing information (we all are trained to - haha even though much of the information may not stick). Enough of that!!!! I've had enough of that for a lifetime! And this is not to say that even I don't take classes now sometimes, because I do. But at a certain point you want interactaction not information. Or you want information that comes in the form of interaction from people whose aliases you recognize and have come to know over time and can kind of have a mental picture of. You don't want another dry textbook to passively absorb (or even drier youtubes - because you can't even skim the darn things).
It's possible at this point discussions forums themselves are very old school. More's the pity.
Watergoddess. I apologize for failing you. Yes, I am a Moderator, but will admit that I very rarely visit the Financial Forum. I don't understand finances on the level they are discussed on this forum, and in addition to, I struggle with reading, so entries that aren't broken-up into separate paragraphs, I automatically disregard, same goes for overly long-winded entries.
I'm not making up excuses, but possibly, I may have missed the objectionable post directed at you, because. Sorry to hear of your less than desirable experience Re:.
No need for you to apologize Mrs. M. But thank you for doing so! I know that you are not financially inclined so I would not expect you to be part of that thread. What surprised me the most was that no one came forward at all. It gave me the impression that either people didn't care, or they agreed with the response I was given.
It was such a departure from what I experienced when I first joined.
treehugger
4-30-13, 12:36pm
It's possible at this point discussions forums themselves are very old school. More's the pity.
I think there is probably a lot of truth to this. Discussion forums have been around for a very (relative) long time in Internet land. It's logical that new generations will come along and have their own things. I still prefer forums to other types of web communication, but I know that blogs (writing, reading, following, commenting), pinterest, Twitter, and other things are much more popular. That doesn't mean that younger generations aren't communicating with others or learning new things either. Like someone mentioned about, one can go to YouTube and find a how-to video on anything. That is a really useful tool, and probably much better for visually-oriented learners than words typed in a forum.
So, while I still prefer forums (but then I am a word person), and it's sad to think of them eventually being replaced completely, I will just continue to enjoy them while they are here. I still think this is a useful, valuable place, where I can accept what I find fun and interesting, and ignore the rest.
Kara
It's possible at this point discussions forums themselves are very old school. More's the pity.
Maybe it's just this one. :devil: [sorry, this became a novella]
I have participated (and still do) in several discussion forums that have lots of traffic. On some of them, it can be hard to keep up if one is not dedicated to it.
I don't recall ever visiting the "old" site, so I have no frame of reference re: the current version of SLF. When I arrived here a year ago, I saw a site that hung out the Welcome sign for anyone interested in SL -- people who want to live off the grid or at least minimally; people geared primarily toward FI; people currently on the hamster wheel of life and looking for advice on how to get off it. All of these are valid approaches and all of them seem to be welcome here.
But I think there is a culture here of judgment that keeps many people from contributing more.
Sometimes it's inadvertant: discussions of, for example, big houses or TV watching or new-car shopping always seem to attract posts by members who don't find that particular purchase or activity of value in their lives -- and yet seem to lack empathy for where others find themselves in their SL journey. I'm not saying we should all ooh and aah over any idea anyone suggests. In fact, sometimes criticism is requested. Fine. I'm just saying that, when someone asks a neutral question on, say, the previously-mentioned topics, I don't see anything positive being gained by stating how much better/simpler/cheaper our own lives are for having an apartment or a tiny house instead of a big one, or that not watching TV has given us time to read books, or how great it is to be able to walk or bicycle wherever we want to go. People are where they are. Let's let them be. They're here to learn to live more simply and, when they can, they will advance in their own way. BTW, I will plead guilty to making comments like that in posts myself. I will watch that.
Sometimes the judgment is advertant. There are some posters here who, I will say, express themselves rather forcefully. Someone posing a question about buying a new car -- maybe there's only the one vehicle in the family and lots of travel is done on quiet roads at off hours -- likely will receive the suggestion that new cars are not particularly frugal purchases. Not real constructive, but OK. However, there's a big difference between writing, "Buying a used car is more economical because you don't lose money on depreciation but a Certified Pre-Owned is almost as good as a new car and still saves money" and "Anybody who buys a brand new car is stupid. You should learn to fix your own car" or "I don't like <item poster mentions>". The first statement is instructional; the second and third are conversation-stoppers even if they are 110% your experience. Then there are the posters I never see until they swoop down occasionally to drop some provocative comments.
I don't think we need to have moderators monitor every discussion. I'm not saying people should not be open in expressing their experiences and thoughts. I am saying that there are times and places for non-constructive comments and that the norms I see here have evolved to allow them where I don't think they add anything to the discussion at hand. We are a very diverse group, in interests and experiences and in temperaments. The majority may decide that they like the hurly-burly of the current methods of discussion. If that is the case, though, then no one should be surprised if visitors who are not aware of these norms -- or who are aware of them but don't care for them -- choose to move on.
My two cents, JMHO, donning the fireproof underwear, and all that stuff.
rosarugosa
4-30-13, 7:52pm
I would like to add that I really like the community here overall, and it would take a lot more than an occasional tactless comment to turn me away. I am always impressed with how generous members can be with their time and intellectual energy when someone poses a significant question or dilemma.
Watergoddess - I too feel bad about your experience in PF. I"ve found most of the interactions there to be pretty pleasant and supportive.
I find great value in this community, and am getting much better at ignoring the people who....well....who I'd ignore in real life too, because all they're doing is trying to win an argument, prove they're right, advance their cause, whatever.
But for each person like that, there are 20 others who are genuinely helpful, compassionate, creative, and in keeping with the mission of this place. I have a ton of respect for the people here. I've learned a lot, and feel it's a great resource in my efforts to live simply.
All forums are different in how they're moderated. I spent many years as moderator on a board that had a very specific mission, and it was everyone's job to call out posts that did not serve that mission. People seemed very willing to support that board financially, because it felt like it was "theirs," not adversarial. No right way, no wrong way, just different.
I came to this community after it was "slow" -- so I have nothing to compare it to. I like it as it is -- i think there's actually a lot of activity, and it's certainly not overwhelming. :)
For me, I was struggling with a lack of simplicity-folk to commune with and get ideas and inspiration. Most of my friends are not interested in simple living, and that's ok.
I visit and read a lot of blogs on various related topics (small homes, minimalism, etc), but the interaction really isn't the same. You interact with a couple of people, maybe -- and on the given topic, rather than being able to create your own topics as they arise. I like that aspect of a forum.
And besides which, it's been valuable for me. I really worked out my feelings on my student loan debt, and now we're getting closer and closer to being free of it! I've been able to share my business successes without people being weird about it -- ie, most people don't want to hear it. I love being able to share those with someone. :) And, whatever other little things that are worth celebrating, really. :)
Overall, I like the place. :)
Well I think there is plenty of good ideas here, and most fit in with SL. You just need to know where to look, or how to look, at it.
There are only so many ways to say, 'spend less than you make', so most of the advise here is in the form of 'here is a neat way to recycle your sweater into a cardigan' (a great post in hobbies by the way) or 'how can I use up this abundance of produce', or even 'what can I do to change the minds of the neighborhood association in letting me have a clothes line'. Frankly I find these types of real world ideas more helpful than tips on saving toilet paper by using handfuls of gravel...
True, I find the "well, I don't watch TV" kind of post in a thread about a favorite show kind of judgmental and certainly not helpful, but generally I can just look at who makes those kinds of posts and ignore.
You can find any information on Youtube, and I've used it myself when I just wanted to know how to do something, but that's just one dimensional information. Here, I get the whole person, warts and all, and I kind of like that. Perhaps that's why there are fewer young people coming to sites like these. Maybe they just don't want to hang out with old fogies talking about laundry or toilet paper, or cardigans.
Rugarosa, I really like your term "intellectual energy"--never heard it before. That is clearly something we have to give each other.
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