View Full Version : is Public Policy chasing forum members away?
I was a little surprised to read in other forums that there are members who think Public Policy posters are chasing other members away. Even those who don't even read or post in here.
My take on this forum is that it's pretty civilized, all things considered, especially compared to most other political-oriented posting on the net. Asking someone to back up their claims, or propounding another opinion, is just that - why consider that such a bad thing?
It's not personal - it's how big issues have to be discussed. There's going to be lots of back and forth, but isn't that a good thing in a democracy? If we shrink at even discussing things because our feelings might get hurt, I fear for our ability to solve the bigger problems facing our society.
I don't have a problem with the Public Policy forum discussions.
No, it is not chasing people away. At times, I simply ignore that forum unless something strikes my interest. Other times, I learn a great deal about the mindset of the general interest in a topic which I enjoy.
It hasn't chased me away. I avoid any thread that "gets to me". We're all grownups here and I admire the passion some people bring to their beliefs. I don't have to agree or engage with them if I don't want to. Carry on!
jennipurrr
4-30-13, 10:23pm
I occasionally read this forum, rarely post, but I would have to say the public policy forum here is probably the most civilized place on the internet to discuss such matters with a wide variety of people.
treehugger
4-30-13, 10:53pm
Well, I guess it's hard to say definitively, since those who have been driven away (assuming they exist) won't answer, but it certainly doesn't bother me any. I don't read it much, and post in it even less (because the conversations in there don't really suit my personality and conversation style), but it doesn't affect my opinion of this board in the slightest.
Of course, those who do think it is driving people away will insist that they have had dozens of PMs from people who have left because of that forum. The Silent Majority are always available to help make a point. Just ask Nixon.
Kara
I think it's nonsense to think the PP forum is driving people away. It's much tamer than other places I visit where politics are allowed. If you don't like a certain area, just don't go there!
Of all the boards here, I find the SPP forum to be the least related to simple living. I've been practicing simple living through many administrations, many political parties, many waves of public policy, and NONE of it has changed the way I live.
SPP is a place for people who like to argue about politics to gather and bicker at each other, never changing one anothers' minds. The "I'm Right, and Here's My Proof" forum.
I personally find it useless at best (in a forum about simple living) and damaging to SLF at worst. I shudder when I think of new members who might happen to stumble in here first, judging all of us on SLF by the tone and the behavior in this forum. We'd never see many of them again.
And I, for one, don't WANT them to just turn around and walk out. I want more and more people to talk to about SIMPLE LIVING -- more ideas, more creativity, more support. It's why I come here.
I generally avoid the public policy forum -- it is just more contentious than I like. Sometimes there are threads that I'll read, but I rarely post.
But I think it is important to keep it, as it provides a space for forum members who want to debate political matters to have their say. If you don't have it, then those debates/arguments spill over into other parts of the forum.
I was a little surprised to read in other forums that there are members who think Public Policy posters are chasing other members away. Even those who don't even read or post in here.
My take on this forum is that it's pretty civilized, all things considered, especially compared to most other political-oriented posting on the net. Asking someone to back up their claims, or propounding another opinion, is just that - why consider that such a bad thing?
It's not personal - it's how big issues have to be discussed. There's going to be lots of back and forth, but isn't that a good thing in a democracy? If we shrink at even discussing things because our feelings might get hurt, I fear for our ability to solve the bigger problems facing our society.
Well I don't read it anymore. It doesn't affect me.
My take on this forum is that it's pretty civilized, all things considered, especially compared to most other political-oriented posting on the net. Asking someone to back up their claims, or propounding another opinion, is just that - why consider that such a bad thing?
I feel the same way. It *is* actually really, really civil all things considered. I find it to be very helpful sometimes, too. :)
It's not personal - it's how big issues have to be discussed. There's going to be lots of back and forth, but isn't that a good thing in a democracy? If we shrink at even discussing things because our feelings might get hurt, I fear for our ability to solve the bigger problems facing our society.
For me, there are times when I get too wrapped up in a discussion. This is why I'll leave a thread go or just the forum in general -- not to get too wrapped up.
The thing is, I *love* to debate. L*O*V*E -- Love it. It's practically a hobby that I've really worked on since I was in my first toast masters group at age 11/12. I mostly focus on keeping to the rules and and winning. I really work on winning.
That gets me wrapped up, but once people go toward the various fallacies or aggressive behaviors, I realize that if I feel the very strong urge to go-go-go -- and then in particular to the exclusion of doing other things -- then it's time to back off. :D That's just for my own sake.
And these days, I back off before I get started.
hey! Debate is a simple living hobby. it relates! ;)
Well I don't read it anymore. It doesn't affect me.
And yet here you are replying to posts.
FWIW, I go to "new posts" every time I'm here. I read what interests, totally unaware of which forum it is in.
SPP is a place for people who like to argue about politics to gather and bicker at each other, never changing one anothers' minds. The "I'm Right, and Here's My Proof" forum.
.
Yeah, kind of how I view the religion board. the "My sky god is better than your sky god" forum. LOL (just kidding):D
But seriously, I don't find religion particularly relevant to simple living (doesn't cost anything to pray, or not pray) so I don't post there. Period. But I would never go into that forum and say how off the mark they are and how usless I think it is to simple living. People can be (more so even) just as stubborn about their religious beliefs as they are about politics, or consumerism, and I'm pretty sure no one straps explosives around their waist and blow themselves up in the name of consumerism.
BUt...we are not just pieces parts. Everything we find passion in affects us, and those around us. If someone is passionate about their religion, and also simple living, then that is the whole person. I can't demand someone leave that part of themselves at the door, simply because it doesn't interest me. We really aren't one trick ponies, and neither is this forum.
Have you ever noticed how, on other sites, even if they are dedicated to only talking about left handed plumbers, or purple day lilies, or whatever, people still talk about their families, or their cars, or their politics. You simply can not extract only one part of a person, and nothing else to ever show. How boring, and frankly I'm not interested in an echo chamber of ideas. If anyone wants that, well, they had better sell the computer now, or only use it to look at pretty pictures.
I think this forum acknowledges the whole person, realizing that politics, as well as religion, is important to many people, and yes, affects us all in one way or another. If you don't like the PP forum, don't read it. Simple as that. Stick to the purple flower thread, or the laundry thread, but don't be surprised if someone wants to discuss the 'politics' of the 'evil garden club president' or the 'politics' of neighborhood associations rules on clotheslines.;)
I think this forum acknowledges the whole person, realizing that politics, as well as religion, is important to many people, and yes, affects us all in one way or another. If you don't like the PP forum, don't read it. Simple as that. Stick to the purple flower thread, or the laundry thread, but don't be surprised if someone wants to discuss the 'politics' of the 'evil garden club president' or the 'politics' of neighborhood associations rules on clotheslines.;)
My sentiments exactly.
To the original question of whether or not the public policy forum is driving people away, I'd have to say No. The forum itself is just a holder of ideas and opinions. If a member is uncomfortable with differing opinions or has no passion for the subject matter, the venue may not be a pleasant place to visit. If you stamp your feet and take the venue away, those opinions and passions will re-surface elsewhere.
And yet here you are replying to posts.
LDAHL, I'm not quite sure how to read your reply to me. It seems a tad cynical and unnecessarily snide to me. The feeling I have reading your post is that, somehow I need to defend my post. So, first, let me point out in the original post these sentences:
I was a little surprised to read in other forums that there are members who think Public Policy posters are chasing other members away. Even those who don't even read or post in here.
This sentence, I felt gave me a legitimate reason to reply about whether or not it affects me. Secondly, I can say that I also usually just read active threads a new posts. I almost never get involved in the public policy forum. The reason for that is that I've never much cared for it after it was (in my opinion) dumbed down from the old politics forum. The posts lost their passion and fire for me. But, still I read them now if they pop up on the active or new threads. And no I don't feel it affects my experience in a positive or negative way on this forum.
The Public Policy Forum, is the downfall of the SLF, due to certain members concentrating their efforts solely to the Public Policy Forum, while ignoring the rest of the forum.
That isn't what the Public Policy Forum was designed for.
ApatheticNoMore
5-1-13, 11:53am
There's going to be lots of back and forth, but isn't that a good thing in a democracy? If we shrink at even discussing things because our feelings might get hurt, I fear for our ability to solve the bigger problems facing our society.
it's a larger social problem, you're generally not supposed to discuss politics most of the time in most arenas. It is probably another reason why things will continue to get worse and worse politically, I fully expect it. But that's a larger issue than the existence or non-existence of the PP forum
I've been practicing simple living through many administrations, many political parties, many waves of public policy, and NONE of it has changed the way I live.
I think one can continue to live simply regardless of who is in power, but one can't pretend it has no effect on what the results will be. Because few live in that type of vacuum. Doing something independent of result has the character of a spritual discipline. Before englightenment chop water carry wood, after englightenment chop water, carry wood. It's admirable, I'm not sure if most people have that kind of pure core ... it seems kinda culturally alien. The outside world affects a lot of one's ability to even think about things: the interest rate on treasuries, the viability of social security (how can this not affect one's thinking about retirement? yea I know we'll all be so fantabulously rich our 401ks alone will suffice - if it's only effect on thinking is to find a career that's viable into old age that's an effect!). How can possible concerns about climate not affect planning over a 30 year horizon (30 years that's what you'd generally take out a mortgage for). How can thinking about the economy not? Not that I think most PP threads are even related to simple living, I just don't believe we live in a vacuum even when we do act on principles unshaken by results, act without concern for reward, because it's the right thing to do. Again a highly admirable trait and one rather extremely counter cultural where the focus is on rewards 24/7.
For me, there are times when I get too wrapped up in a discussion. This is why I'll leave a thread go or just the forum in general -- not to get too wrapped up.
There are discussion I will definitely leave be, when it is quite obvious discussion is not only not changing anyone's mind but not making any impact at all, except getting more and more heated, and what's the point? I could post links about the evils of Monsanto until I'm blue in the fingers and I doubt it would change Iris Lily's mind, so it's not a fight I'd pick (now if someone who has no dog in the fight asks about Monsanto ...)
The thing is, I *love* to debate. L*O*V*E -- Love it. It's practically a hobby that I've really worked on since I was in my first toast masters group at age 11/12. I mostly focus on keeping to the rules and and winning. I really work on winning.
I'm not sure I love debate or love conflict per se (I actually don't - it's why there's some fights it's just like there is no way I'm stepping into that), I guess what I like is to think about ways we conceptualize the world - and to argue in that vein. Plus I don't think we live in vacuums independent of larger factors.
The Public Policy Forum, is the downfall of the SLF, due to certain members concentrating their efforts solely to the Public Policy Forum, while ignoring the rest of the forum.
That isn't what the Public Policy Forum was designed for.
True, but are there really that many such members?
decemberlov
5-1-13, 11:54am
FWIW, I go to "new posts" every time I'm here. I read what interests, totally unaware of which forum it is in.
Same here. If the title does not interest me after I hit new posts...I just don't click on it.
Originally posted by ApatheticNoMore.
True, but are there really that many such members?I don't know how many there are, but we have them.
decemberlov
5-1-13, 11:58am
And yet here you are replying to posts.
Posts like these are the reason why, if a thread does happen to interest me, and it deals with issues such as politics, gun control or religion I will simply read and not post. This sounded rude and I'm not sure what to respond with (were it towards me). I don't like confrontation much.
The Public Policy Forum, is the downfall of the SLF, due to certain members concentrating their efforts solely to the Public Policy Forum, while ignoring the rest of the forum.
That isn't what the Public Policy Forum was designed for.
What was it designed for?
The Public Policy Forum is the 7th most popular forum in terms of new threads and the 2nd most popular in terms of posts. The Open Forum hosts more than twice as many threads as well as more posts. Should we do away with it too in hopes that the threads and posts not made there would somehow take place elsewhere?
What was it designed for?
The Public Policy Forum is the 7th most popular forum in terms of new threads and the 2nd most popular in terms of posts. The Open Forum hosts more than twice as many threads as well as more posts. Should we do away with it too in hopes that the threads and posts not made there would somehow take place elsewhere?The Public Policy Forum fits part-and-parcel with the other forums, however, my argument is, if members cannot involve themselves with the rest of the forum, then the Public Policy Forum should be out of bounds.
It has nothing to do with Simple Living, and was not intended to be a forum where members dedicate themselves to that forum and that forum only. That, was established on the old site, and if the policy and guidelines were not carried over from the old site to our new site, shame on us!
LDAHL, I'm not quite sure how to read your reply to me. It seems a tad cynical and unnecessarily snide to me. The feeling I have reading your post is that, somehow I need to defend my post. So, first, let me point out in the original post these sentences:
This sentence, I felt gave me a legitimate reason to reply about whether or not it affects me. Secondly, I can say that I also usually just read active threads a new posts. I almost never get involved in the public policy forum. The reason for that is that I've never much cared for it after it was (in my opinion) dumbed down from the old politics forum. The posts lost their passion and fire for me. But, still I read them now if they pop up on the active or new threads. And no I don't feel it affects my experience in a positive or negative way on this forum.
So you "don't read it" except when you do? I'm not so much cynical as skeptical.
Mrs. M...I'm not sure why you are so angry about this issue. I'm not someone who contributes much to the Public Policy Forum, but I can't deny that it is inextricably twined with simple living. Fracking and the effect on our water supply is just one small example. I don't understand why you would even bother to know that there are people who "only' post on that thread of the board. I know posters who pretty much only post on Family Matters and Relationships, because it is what they are struggling with now or where their interest lies, and yet I don't regard them as any less necessary to the whole. If I am missing something, please point it out. I'm not trying to be rude or argumentative. Thanks.
Mrs. M - are you OK? You seem quite angry about lurkers and accuse them of moral failure, you seem angry about people who *do* post in some forums, you seem to feel your "home" is being sullied, and you seem to want to charge fees to enter "your home".
Perhaps time to step back a bit?
What would a newcomer to the boards think, seeing a moderator going on like you have just been?
It has nothing to do with Simple Living, and was not intended to be a forum where members dedicate themselves to that forum and that forum only. That, was established on the old site, and if the policy and guidelines were not carried over from the old site to our new site, shame on us!
There were problems in the Politics forum on the old site. Not with the forum itself IMHO but with the level of control that the administrators and moderators of the time tried to impose on it. That same forum is much more open and inviting now than it was then, now that we allow adult back and forth without arbitrarily forcing people to edit their thoughts, deleting posts and banishing those who weren't especially thrilled with the actions taken against them.
I'm not in favor of substituting that level of control for another that requires members to ration their time in Public Policy lest they be punished. This is a simple living site and we should approach it that way otherwise it's just a clique that most adults don't want any part of, and frankly, I believe it's that sort of thinking that truly drives members away.
Originally posted by Bae.
Mrs. M - are you OK? You seem quite angry about lurkers and accuse them of moral failure, you seem angry about people who *do* post in some forums, you seem to feel your "home" is being sullied, and you seem to want to charge fees to enter "your home".Please be so kind as to locate the entry I made where I stated "my home", then copy it and paste it here for me to review. Thank you.
Originally posted by Bae.
What would a newcomer to the boards think, seeing a moderator going on like you have just been?I'd be thrilled (as a newcomer) to see the true actual underpinnings of this site (in it's true form and nature/colour), rather than some smoke-screen blocking the reality of.
No thanks, Mrs-M, not going to engage in a cut/paste deconstruction with you. My research rates are $450/hour, let me know where to send an invoice, and we can talk.
ROTFLMAO! Coming up empty-handed doesn't pay the bills does it!
ROTFLMAO! Coming up empty-handed doesn't pay the bills does it!
I'm not empty-handed, I'm just not interested in engaging your attempts to disown your words.
Originally posted by Bae.
I'm not empty-handed. http://crazytownmayor.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Temper-tantrum-smiley.gifNo... I'm not, I'M NOT, I'M NOT, I'M NOT- EMPTY-HANDED!
Mrs M...Wow, you are one angry woman! You did refer to the boards as your home. I'm not going to take the time to find the post as you may have already deleted it, but please don't deny what you said. I'm sorry that this has become so personal to you, because in the end it is a public forum and not an individual's site. Maybe you're going through a hard time, but you don't sound like yourself at all in this discussion! Peace to you.
http://crazytownmayor.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Temper-tantrum-smiley.gifNo... I'm not, I'M NOT, I'M NOT, I'M NOT- EMPTY-HANDED!
Sad
Actually, you said our home...not your home. But the term home connotes a place where you control the coming and going of your guests, and I think this forum hopes to remain open to all posters.
A few notes from my POV as someone who was a PP participant and later a mod on the old boards and now here.
1. For a long period on the old board moderation was heavy handed and, frankly, absurd. That is (I hope) no longer the case as it is completely unnecessary here.
2. The old boards did have more people participating in PP, but also had a heavily disproportionate amount of bickering, in-fighting, name calling, etc. The excessive moderation there was not totally without cause.
3. The current PP boards are the most civil and mature political discussion on the web that I know of when such a wide diversity of political philosophies are represented. If you show up trying to change the mind of others, well, good luck. What is valuable is to listen and ultimately look for places where compromise could happen. We're way better at it than Congress.
4. Posters here are not rude according to the rules of etiquette in modern society. There will always be people in the world who are just too sensitive to engage comfortably in the discussions we have here. That does not imply the rest of us are insensitive. Others are simply so thin skinned or so insecure that they will feel offended if others disagree with their opinions or do not go out of the way praise their posts. It is probably true that those people won't feel comfortable in PP. Oh well.
5. There is far less drama in PP than there is in the Family and Relationships Forum, the Workplace, Jobs and Issues Forum, the Health and Healthcare Forum, the Spirituality & Religion Forum, the Dailies and Challenges Forum and just about any where else where people bring up personal issues. Public policy isn't personal.
6. A designated area for the discussion of public policy is critical for a community such as ours. As Alan said, if it's not here its going to pop up somewhere anyway. The reason is that unless you live so simply as to be a hermit in a cave PP affects you. It is, in fact, one of only two individual forums within this site where every single member is affected by the topics whether they participate in the discussion or not. The other being the environmental forum.
7. If you are going to do anything regarding placing limitations on member's postings relating to PP then it should become mandatory for new members to be involved in PP. Once they have made 50 posts here they would have access to the rest of the site. Maybe that sounds outlandish, but it would certainly insure that our new members are people who are not afraid to engage in discussions beyond the garden, the church or the diaper pail.
Originally posted by Gregg.
7. If you are going to do anything regarding placing limitations on member's postings relating to PP then it should become mandatory for new members to be involved in PP. Once they have made 50 posts here they would have access to the rest of the site.Bravo! A good start that would be.
I think this forum hopes to remain open to all posters.
Word.
i
I'm not sure I love debate or love conflict per se (I actually don't - it's why there's some fights it's just like there is no way I'm stepping into that), I guess what I like is to think about ways we conceptualize the world - and to argue in that vein. Plus I don't think we live in vacuums independent of larger factors.
I like to think about those things too.
But to be sure, debate is different than 'conflict.' Debating is actually a game. You know how there are debate teams in schools? You're competing to form the best arguments for your side -- and usually your side is assigned. You follow specific rules (though some of those are changed on forums, such as having time limits and only a limited number of response times). And at the end, the people with the most points win. Points are won through reasoned, logical, well spoken (or in this case, written) arguments. Points are lost through logical fallacies, losing your cool (which did actually happen at a competition I was at in law school -- which is amazing because it is actually professional training at that point!), and basically not being able to make a compelling argument for your side. Also, judges don't like arrogance.
While there are conflicting points of view or positions, debate is supposed to be (to an extent) dispassionate. In a way, it's like acting. you *act* very passionate about your side, even if your side isn't what you actually believe. So in that way, you are dispassionate. If your side is what you believe, you still need to step outside of that passion because it can muck up the measure of how to win -- which is staying out of the extreme passions that lead people to attack each other rather than working with the arguments presented in a calm, collected, and reasoned fashion (while still displaying adequate passion for the idea).
The problem that I run into is that I notice the "other side" getting way too emotional and devolving into not-so-great behaviors, so I back off (since at that point, I've technically 'won') because it's not really worth going forward. There's not going to be any more good discussion, and there's only going to be frustration and bad feeling (ie, conflict).
The other problem that I run into is that both points can be well argued (and interesting), and I literally just get too wrapped up in it, to the exclusion of everything else that I could and probably should be doing.
I think tht these discussions don't have to be viewed as inherently problematic. I like how people look at ideas -- when it's well reasoned and considered. And most people -- i've found -- are quite intelligent about it all.
Well said, Gregg - pretty much sums up my experience too.
I actually enjoy the PP forum. It makes me think about some of our current affairs and keeps me current with some of the issues. I have to say that I am not typically motivated to join in the discussion. I have seen an ugly and immature side to a few of the forum members who seem wise and mature on the other forums. It sort of brings out a bad side of a few of the members.
goldensmom
5-2-13, 11:42am
Regarding the OP, I’m interested in all the forum topics. Some I just read and some I read and post. I am not offended or will be run off by anyone’s comments even though I feel some are unnecessary and rude when directed towards any one member’s stated opinion. As far as the OP and being chased away because of the PP, if I don’t like a topic, I don’t engage in it but that doesn’t mean I will not engage in other topics. I won’t throw out the whole side of beef because I don’t like a particular cut.
I like the PP forums and don't think they drive away posters. I personally have thick skin and don't get my feelings hurt ever - although I do get frustrated sometimes but that's life. I don't think we need to change anything or put restrictions on anyone as far a requiring them to post in other forums. I would rebel against that kind of regulations by leaving this site. Moderate moderation to keep things somewhat civil if they get abusive or use profanity, otherwise let us adults act like adults and participate when, where and how we want - even if it's just to read and never post, or to post in only one favored forum. I mean some of us like to watch "The Peggy and Alan Show" (sung to the tune of The Itchy and Scratchy Show from The Simpsons) even if we don't participate. Now the question is - which ones Itchy and with one is Scratchy :-)
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