Weight gain across species [Archive]

ctg492

6-25-13, 8:41am

Interesting read.
It is hard for a simple person like me to understand the weight issues others have. I really really try not to judge, but sorry it is hard.I am killing calories every waking second to be honest. I a conscience of junk food being tossed in my cart. I know hands down no questions asked, my weight would skyrocket if I ate what seems to be normal today from what I see in the check outlines. If I stopped working out. I have two adult sons, one eats everything and anything, working out is not something he would do he is fat by 60 pounds. The other is a vegetarian, runner and cyclist, yes he is thin and fit. I only have to look at those two people to understand weight, in my simple mind.

catherine

6-25-13, 9:36am

Very interesting.

ctg, I understand your observation, and it mirrors the thinking of the many doctors I interviewed about the cause of obesity--most of them believe in the "calories in v. calories expended" argument. (To refute the "it's not me, it's my metabolism" rationale, I had one doctor who rather indelicately pointed out to me that "you didn't see any fat people in concentration camps during the Holocaust, did you?)

Yes, we make choices for what we eat and how we live--how much activity we engage in and how we manage our calorie intake. But I have to agree with the premise of the article which says it's a really tangled web of personal choice, societal changes in terms of work and transportation, chemical changes, etc. I do believe that endocrine disrupters are something to be taken seriously. I also agree with the interesting premise that electric lights have altered our eating patterns to our detriment.

It's a very tangled web, with no one way out of it.

reader99

6-26-13, 9:36am

A thought provoking article about weight gain in several species, raising questions about the assumptions of human weight gain & loss.

http://www.aeonmagazine.com/being-human/david-berreby-obesity-era/

Thank you. I've had that thought before but without the wherewithal to express it like this article does.

The environmental chemical thing makes total sense to me. I'm chemically sensitive. I notice that when I'm around certain types of perfumes I get ridiculously hungry! I've no idea why that would be but it has happened enough times that I think it's just a matter of time before science addresses it.

Spartana

6-27-13, 6:33pm

Well I'm old school - calories in, calories out - kind of person for the most part. I do agree that many things can influence how and what we eat, however, bottom line for me is that weight gain and loss all comes down to how much we eat vs. how much we burn. I eat a HUGE amount of calories each day. If I was sedendary (I'm not) I'd gain a huge amount of weight. If I ate less but was just as active I'd lose a huge amount of weight (I do). Seems simple to me.

redfox

6-27-13, 7:06pm

It may SEEM simple, but it isn't. We're all different; different genetics, metabolism, health, capacity, hormones, age, etc. I eat a little and gain. I move more and stay stable. I only lose when I eat so little that I get light-headed, and then when I go back to a 'normal' amount of food, I gain. I suspect I ruined my metabolic system by crash dieting in my younger years, when I thought I was "fat", but was in fact a size 12-14. I once stopped eating everything except salads & water for a month, till I got clinically depressed & my teeth became loose. I was grievously depressed & protein starved. I had also had just survived a date rape, but at age 18, had no idea that what I experienced was called rape.

In my twenties, when I was farming & moving 15 hours a day, I still gained weight, though it may have been muscle mass. I have always been considered 'overweight' by weight & BMI standards, now I am just into the obese category. Yet all my health indicators - glucose, cholesterol, blood pressure - are great.

The cancer I am treating has overweight as one of the several risk factors, and I believe it contributed, as extra body fat in women produces estrogen, and I had an estrogenic cancer. Yet, I also had a very easy menopause because of my extra body fat, and the data is that overweight people live longer than thin people. I have slowly gained an extra 40-50 pounds in the last 20 years... just 2+ # a year. But wow does it add up!

So, what's one to do? As a society, ending fat-phobia & prejudice, for starters. Stop producing GMO food. Stop selling junk food. Now that "obesity" is considered a disease, perhaps health insurance will cover things like effective exercise coaching by a PT, and intelligent support for those with eating disorders & distorted body image, which I've had since my teens.

http://www.haescommunity.org/

ApatheticNoMore

6-27-13, 7:07pm

To refute the "it's not me, it's my metabolism" rationale, I had one doctor who rather indelicately pointed out to me that "you didn't see any fat people in concentration camps during the Holocaust, did you?

Yes and most people can not and will not willing keep themselves on the "Holocaust diet" (even they didn't willingly!). So how people behave in a no-choice situation doesn't actually tell us about how people not being starved to death will behave. So yes I DEFINITELY do think if you keep calories low enough you'll lose weight. And most people have great difficulty doing that, they tire of fasting, etc. (and fasting is probably the most natural way to approach it). They get sick of battling hunger and eat.

Calories in versus calories out determines weight. But that's not interesting, what determines calories in versus calories out? Well hunger is the most basic. And then what determines hunger?

I actually do think a lot of factors make people more overweight than they'd otherwise be. I also think the standards for what an ideal person should look like are unrealistic for many people.

Spartana

6-27-13, 8:27pm

pinkytoe

6-27-13, 8:31pm

My brother just sent me a DVD of old home movies from 50 years ago. Everyone was lean as could be. Something has certainly changed.

redfox

6-27-13, 8:35pm

I think one of the problems - amongst the many Red fox outline such as age, hormones, etc... that effect metabolism - is that people do try the starve to lose weight band that sets up a whole series of metabolic reactions where the body tries to conserve fat. Thus often times eatng more is better in the long run rather than less. Food ups your metabolism quite a bit. I know that when I see diets where people lose a lot of weight bit sees to be those that stress a lot of food as well as a moderate amount of exercise.

Yes, I crash dieted once on purpose, then a few more times as a stress response - basically got anorexic due to anxiety during very bad life circumstances. (So not only is this a medical issue for me, but obviously a mental health one as well.) It was bizarre, experiencing having NO desire to eat. No appetite, in fact a food revulsion. Wow. And, once I got my appetite back, I was ravenous. It was the starvation/gorge cycle that when experienced, I believe our bodies adapted to centuries ago by packing on the pounds. I wonder if it is ever possible to normalize this. I have lost & gained 20-40# each time, and each time I re-gained, I gained back more. At this point, a 20# loss would be incredibly beneficial for me, and I hope to achieve that over the next year, then keep it off!

Keeping weight off once lost, even by reasonable standards, has an 80% failure rate, according to Kaiser Permanente. Here is the link:
http://xnet.kp.org/permanentejournal/sum03/registry.html

rodeosweetheart

6-27-13, 8:42pm

My brother just sent me a DVD of old home movies from 50 years ago. Everyone was lean as could be. Something has certainly changed.

A lot of it is frame, and what kind of muscle tissue you are born with--I can't remember from A & P class but there is slow twitch and quick twitch--one is the muscle my cross country runner husband has and one is what a weight lifter has, and you are born with a percentage of each and it varies and it is genetic. Metabolism probably also genetic.

When I was treated for food allergies, I lost 40 pounds without dieting. Dr. Mercola, who I was seeing, said I had a very very slow metabolism and did not eat much, he wanted me to eat more, more often. So it's not calories, I don't think.

I think it's related to poisoning of the food supply with chemicals and gene alteration, thus the lean folks in the home movie. Although my home movies show very tall people built like the Yorkshire farmers, Welsh farmers, and German farmers they descended from.

For me, I am blaming hormones as I age. I swear, in a few more years, not only will I be subsiding on air and water, but I will probably have to cook for other people to avoid gaining weight. It's horrible.

pinkytoe

6-27-13, 10:59pm

Something I have noticed is that I constantly "feel" hungry - sometimes just an hour after a meal. I try to ignore it - somewhere I read that one feels hungry more when they are sleep-deprived.

redfox

6-28-13, 12:26am

A friend in public health just mentioned that he presented about chemical obesogens. A new word for me, so of course I asked the Google.

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/july-podcast/

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/758210

redfox

6-28-13, 2:01am

http://www.upworthy.com/she-had-a-pretty-woman-moment-at-a-dress-shop-but-her-response-is-way-better-than-julia-roberts?g=2

A teen's TED.

reader99

6-29-13, 2:11pm

And here's a related and very interesting TED talk:

http://www.ted.com/talks/peter_attia_what_if_we_re_wrong_about_diabetes.htm l?utm_source=newsletter_weekly_2013-06-29&utm_campaign=newsletter_weekly&utm_medium=email&utm_content=talk_of_the_week_button

HappyHiker

7-7-13, 4:19pm

Fascinating article. No wonder everyone's arguing about what's making us fat! A whole slew of intertwined factors. And why are animals, too, getting heavier? That's quite puzzling.

Anyhow, all I know is that I must spurn all junk food, eat whole foods (home-cooked) and do a lot of exercise to stay somewhat slim. It's hard work and I find I must stay ever vigilant...I must have the metabolism of a sedated sloth.

Junk food is so seductive, isn't it? Those food scientists are good at what they do--and treacherous..

Rosemary

7-7-13, 5:44pm

I agree with HappyHiker on all counts above! Constant vigilance and awareness.

Gardenarian

7-8-13, 7:01pm

Just looking at a new book on this topic: What's wrong with fat? by Abigail Saguy. Very interesting. Below is a review from Choice

Sociologist/gender studies expert Saguy (UCLA) implores readers to appreciate the complexities of such commonly used terms as obesity, fat, and epidemic, and explores several important issues. For example, how is the condition of obesity framed: as immoral, a medical problem, or a "public health crisis"? The author also addresses how major blame is assigned, including personal responsibility, sociocultural forces, or biological factors, and how these various mind-sets (or "frames") direct public attention, research funding, media coverage, policy, and medical care. The author asks whether society's approach to being overweight would change if those frames included "health at every size," beauty, or equal rights. Further, Saguy questions why weight prejudice is not investigated more vigorously, and beyond the overweight individual, who has the right to choose "treatment" or "cure" for the condition of fatness. She appropriately points out important differences in society's attribution/perspectives between those eating disorders marked by very thin or near-normal body weight and binge-eating disorder, with its attendant weight gain. Written with clarity and passion, this mind-expanding work invites readers to consider the rights of people at any size.

redfox

7-8-13, 7:11pm

Gardenarian

7-8-13, 8:37pm

Thanks, Gardinarian! I am reserving this at the library. I cannot live my life under constant vigilance & awareness of what I eat. My baselines are: organic, local, mostly vegetables, whole grains, and some animal products. Treats in moderation when I wish. Movement I enjoy. Being a size 16-18 is how I am.

http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/post/54864863081/womens-wimbledon-champion-marion-bartoli-deemed

A sample of fat shaming. Oy.
That's outrageous.

I think constant vigilance on eating is the norm for most women (that I know.) I have never been overweight but know the freaking calorie count of every item I put in my mouth (fat, carbohydrate, and fiber too - who needs labels?) What a waste of brain space!

ApatheticNoMore

7-8-13, 9:02pm

I don't practice constant vigilance (ok ocassionally I practice some "weird" practices like fasting but whatever - it's hardly with an anorexics discipline - if body and mind are not up for it, I simply won't bother). I don't think about the calorie content of everything I put in my mouth - now if specifically asked to think about it, I could probably give you a rough estimate of calories :) - but I definitely don't know the macronutrient breakdown.

I can't actually live under constant vigilance about food either. It's simply extremely unnatural. And I could never live under a regime that I'm not supposed to use food for pleasure.

My baselines are: organic

yea I eat a lot of organic, whenever I can, I don't go for 100% though

, local

when I can, but I like my tropical fruits sometimes :)

mostly vegetables, whole grains, and some animal products.

I don't fear meats, nor fats, nor carbs (a bit suspicious of some grains though) definitely do try to eat vegetables (for instance certain vegetables have anti-cancer properties that work independently of how much fat you have - really - it's not just about fatness)

Treats in moderation when I wish.

chocolate, not in moderation! :0!

Gardenarian

7-9-13, 12:44pm

ANM - I should have said, I was vigilant about calories when I was younger, especially in high school and college. Now, I do watch that I buy organic - and pay attention to getting lots of vegetables and fruit and protein.

I do think that most women have an encyclopedic knowledge of calorie counts, which is pretty revealing in itself.

redfox

7-9-13, 2:03pm

ANM - I do think that most women have an encyclopedic knowledge of calorie counts, which is pretty revealing in itself.

Yes, all that brain power taken up by such BS, when the world needs our brilliance & passion for so many other things!

puglogic

7-9-13, 2:27pm

Yes, all that brain power taken up by such BS, when the world needs our brilliance & passion for so many other things!

{ puglogic searches frantically for "Like" button.... :) }

JaneV2.0

7-9-13, 3:43pm

Yes and most people can not and will not willing keep themselves on the "Holocaust diet" (even they didn't willingly!). So how people behave in a no-choice situation doesn't actually tell us about how people not being starved to death will behave. So yes I DEFINITELY do think if you keep calories low enough you'll lose weight. And most people have great difficulty doing that, they tire of fasting, etc. (and fasting is probably the most natural way to approach it). They get sick of battling hunger and eat.

Calories in versus calories out determines weight. But that's not interesting, what determines calories in versus calories out? Well hunger is the most basic. And then what determines hunger?

I actually do think a lot of factors make people more overweight than they'd otherwise be. I also think the standards for what an ideal person should look like are unrealistic for many people.

Bolding mine. Gary Taubes' excellent Why We Get Fat explains it nicely, and neatly puts to rest the "calories in, calories out," "eat less, move more" notions.

And Dr. William Davis, Wheat Belly.

ETA: Peter Attia is a god! He and David Diamond, PhD. Another wonderful resource is Tom Naughton--Fat Head and Science for Smart People.

HappyHiker

7-10-13, 12:24pm

Interesting when the "heavyweights" of the nutrition field slug it out: McDougall, Diamond, Fuhrman, Taubes, Ornish et al.

NO wonder the average eater is confused. Are fats good or bad? Which ones are good--which ones are bad? How much fat should be in our diet? Are potatoes heaven or hell? Vegetarian or Caveman/Paleo? Low carb, no-carb, or complex carbs? Food pyramid or no food pyramid?

From my own readings and trial and error on me and my lipid panel and weight--and level of wellness or illness, this is what I think:

Each of needs to custom design our own way of eating that suits--and is effective--for US. There's no one-size-fits-all. My eating style is personal and works for ME--it may not suit you at all. And I promise not to stuff it down your throat and insist it's the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Some of us can process carbs very efficiently--without weight gain. Some of can't, get fat, and/or develop diabetes. Some of us can digest dairy without problems. Some of us are lactose-intolerant and suffer with dairy. Same with gluten.

But I honestly believe this works & benefits everyone:

-eliminate or rarely drink sodas, diet or regular

-moderate alcohol & caffeine consumption

-add more orange, red, green and yellow vegetables to daily diet. Eat raw in salads if possible.

-drink ample fresh water daily

-make animal protein your personal choice, but if eating, not every meal and buy the best you can afford

-eliminate or greatly reduce all snack foods and commercial baked goods, including chips and crackers. Avoid store-bought ice cream. Trans-fats are evil.

-find time to be in nature, preferably with bare feet in green grass

-design and practice a movement program that works for our lifestyle, be it walking, jogging, skipping, cycling, gym, yoga, tai chi, swimming, or dancing around the kitchen to tunes.

-enjoy your food and make it your friend and not your enemy

-when a treat is a must have, have it, savor it, and don't guilt-trip over it. Mine is dark chocolate, and I will never not eat it on occasion.

-find a compatible health care professional who fits your belief system. Me, I believe in nutraceuticals much more than pharmaceuticals.

-smile. Count your blessings, pet puppies and kittens whenever possible.

Rosemary

7-10-13, 12:35pm

Excellent summary, HappyHiker!

JaneV2.0

7-10-13, 3:49pm

Now there's health advice I can get behind!

Gardenarian

7-11-13, 6:49pm

+1 Happy Hiker!
May there be many happy hikes in your future. :)

Spartana

7-13-13, 3:41pm

It was bizarre, experiencing having NO desire to eat. No appetite, in fact a food revulsion. Wow. And, once I got my appetite back, I was ravenous. It was the starvation/gorge cycle that when experienced, I believe our bodies adapted to centuries ago by packing on the pounds. This is sooo me :-)! I completely lose my appetite when I don't eat (and have also been accused of being anorexic at times in my life even though I wasn't). I get to a point where I can't stand to even look at it. This usually happens if I get too hungry or wait too long between meals. So I try to eat fairly often (whole, raw foods like fruit or veggies or nuts) or I get repulsed by food and can easily just stop eating all together. And of course I have been known to binge eat too :-)! It seems the more I eat, the greater my appetite. I've read up on it and both things have to do with the release of enzymes and how they effect appetite. I can be stuffed to the gills physically but still craving more. Or I can be starving but have no appetite. I have found that happy medium and now have neither reactions - or only minimally and I know how to fix them (eat spartana, eat!!). But, again, for me keeping my weight at a good level has just been a matter of calories in and calories out. Dealing with the chemical reactions my body has that makes me crave food, or be repulsed by food, hasn't changed my weight - if I eat too much I gain weight. If I eat too little I lose weight.

Bethers

7-13-13, 6:17pm

My brother just sent me a DVD of old home movies from 50 years ago. Everyone was lean as could be. Something has certainly changed.

Something seems to be different. If you look at "obese" celebrities from years ago like Jackie Gleason, the chubby guy from Laurel and Hardy, etc. they were big but nothing like what you see today. There's a newish book out called "Wheat Belly" by William Davis MD and he makes the point that men and women in the 40s and 50s were trim but there was no exercise craze like there is today. He even mentions that about 1/3 of triathletes today are overweight despite burning a ton of calories with their workouts. For the most part he blames the situation on hybridized wheat found in many of the products we eat today and which hasn't been around for very long. Here's an interview with the author http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/09/your-addiction-to-wheat-products-is-making-you-fat-and-unhealthy/245526/

Suzanne

7-13-13, 7:21pm

With regard to the no fat people in Holocaust concentration camps, it is true that there was no obesity. However, these were extreme conditions, with people getting as little as 400 calories per person per day. And, even more important, some people survived on these rations for long periods while others, with the same amount of food, died very quickly. This surely indicates very strongly that individual metabolism and biochemistry play a major role in how quickly we fatten under good conditions or die of starvation when food is short. Prisoner studies have shown the same kind of variation, when prisoners volunteering for feeding studies have been given exactly the same amounts of exactly the same foods and been supervised through exactly the same amount of exercise. The variability appears in both overfeeding and starvation studies. Then there are the examples of polar explorers; identical daily rations, identical daily exertion.

The doctor who made that comment was not only indelicate but ignorant.

Bethers

7-13-13, 7:49pm

With regard to the no fat people in Holocaust concentration camps, it is true that there was no obesity. However, these were extreme conditions, with people getting as little as 400 calories per person per day. And, even more important, some people survived on these rations for long periods while others, with the same amount of food, died very quickly. This surely indicates very strongly that individual metabolism and biochemistry play a major role in how quickly we fatten under good conditions or die of starvation when food is short.

I've been watching Survivor for a while and also noticed that some contestants come off the island very thin losing about a pound a day and some are still pretty chubby. It probably also depends on how much extra weight they were carrying at the beginning of the season as well as metabolism and biochemistry variables.

Spartana

7-13-13, 7:56pm

Something seems to be different. If you look at "obese" celebrities from years ago like Jackie Gleason, the chubby guy from Laurel and Hardy, etc. they were big but nothing like what you see today. There's a newish book out called "Wheat Belly" by William Davis MD and he makes the point that men and women in the 40s and 50s were trim but there was no exercise craze like there is today. He even mentions that about 1/3 of triathletes today are overweight despite burning a ton of calories with their workouts. For the most part he blames the situation on hybridized wheat found in many of the products we eat today and which hasn't been around for very long. Here's an interview with the author http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/09/your-addiction-to-wheat-products-is-making-you-fat-and-unhealthy/245526/
I live in a Vietnamese immigrant community and have noticed a HUGE (pun intended :-) ) difference in the weight and size of the second and third generation younger people who eat a more american diet. They are not only taller and bigger, they are over weight. The older people who had a different traditional diet of fish and rice are teeny tiny with no fat.