The Exterior Project . . . sigh.

[fidgiegirl]

Well, as would be expected, the exterior project could be running a higher tab than initially expected. We knew two banks of casement windows (five in total, a bank of two and a bank of three) were bad, but the contractor is strongly suggesting replacing them now - and it's not because he's a high pressure guy. He says it would be easier, of course, for him to put in the windows and continue with the exterior work, but he said he could put them in after the fact if we have to wait. Since the idea behind doing the extensive exterior work is to remediate rot, I feel it would be silly to leave any rot in place (by not replacing the windows). But it will add a lot of money to the project.

We have an estimated cost for the project, and have a bit more than that available on hand and in a few harder-to-get-into accounts, but I am starting to get worried. I am wondering if we should apply for a home equity line to have on standby and ready. While I detest the idea of going into debt, even more I hate the idea of doing the job halfway.

What do you think? What happens if a person lines up a HELOC and doesn't draw on it? Does it cost anything in that case? We have about 20% equity in our home, maybe more now that prices are going up, but I suppose that would require an appraisal.

Thanks for sharing anything you know about HELOCs. It will help us make our decision.

[CeciliaW]

Get the HELOC in place for any number of reasons.

Do the windows. You're right. It makes no sense to only do the repair part way.

[rosarugosa]

Kelli: We have a $200K HELOC and we haven't touched it for 2 years. I believe there is supposed to be a $50 per year fee if you're not carrying at least a $5K balance (I don't think they charged us last year), so I may close it out at some point. But for now, it does give us a feeling of security to konw it's there.

[SteveinMN]

A HELOC will generate a credit hit, but that should not hurt you. You might want to check if your lender would charge you for the privelege, as rosa points out. The only other thought I have is that if you already have a credit card/other LOC with enough room on it, you could put overages on that just for the time it would take you to get a HELOC together. That way in case you don't need it you haven't spent anything to acquire it. Or maybe the HELOC is entirely free. Just a thought.

[rodeosweetheart]

Do you want a HELOC loan--to be potentially going into debt with your house? How does this impact your bigger financial picture?
Personally, I have had great problems with debt in the past, so this is not an option I could do. Many people seem to do well with home equity loans. Others get into trouble. I can't believe the 5 casement windows would be that expensive? Do you think you really want this HELOC, or is it more of a kneejerk reaction to the scarcity feelings that are arising with the house repair?

[Gardenarian]

I don't know anything about HELOC, but I'm wondering how much they are charging for 5 casement windows? Any chance of finding the windows salvage?

[rodeosweetheart]

I don't know anything about HELOC, but I'm wondering how much they are charging for 5 casement windows? Any chance of finding the windows salvage?

Great point, Gardenarian. When we lived in upstate NY we had a window/door/flooring overstock place--they took on overstock orders, returned orders, etc from more retail type operations like Hardware stores. It was great-- you just had to check in there and wait til they got your size, and you had to walk all over the warehouse and rummage throught the sizes. We bought 11 windows for our farmhouse that way--when I had priced them in the hardware store, they wer erunning around 250 a window, and we bought each window for around 75, then my husband installed them. But they had casements, patio doors, french doors, exterior doors, and every window you could imagine. They had Pellas and all the other brands come in, and also things like Silverstar.

[SteveinMN]

The big thing I'd be careful about in buying salvaged/overstock/returned windows is the labor involved in putting them in properly.

Our 40-year-old house is still on its original windows. I know we'll be replacing them some day, so I've been trying to get a fix on our options. One of them is not me putting them in. I just don't have the background or the tools to do it right, and that's the kind of job that looks okay when it's first done -- but reveals mistakes and shortcomings (leaks, mold, failure) very expensively in a few years.

I'm also concerned about the "collateral" cost of fitting in windows that are a little narrow or different materials -- what do we do about replacing a couple inches of siding now needed to cover the hole filled by the new smaller window? What are the odds of finding enough good windows (some brands are pretty lousy) which are similar enough to not make it look like we patched them together? Frankly, if I were houseshopping and saw a house that had a variety of windows cobbled into place, I'd keep looking. it just says "We didn't care" to me.

If you can shop around and DIY, more power to you. I can't/won't. Much better, IMHO, is to hire an great contractor and cut back on how high in the window line we go. The best window, installed poorly, will fail prematurely. Since we'll probably be around for many years after installation, I want the job done right.

[rodeosweetheart]

Well, if one is not up to installing them oneself, then of course get a contractor. Ours looked incredible--they matched--not sure how you would view our old house, but wow, Steve, this was not our house-- "Frankly, if I were houseshopping and saw a house that had a variety of windows cobbled into place, I'd keep looking. it just says "We didn't care" to me."

We had a house from 1830, so believe me, none of the sizes were standard. It does not look patched together--you have to maek the openings fit, in some cases--you can go with a slightly smaller window, as you do not want to be cutting the openings larger. Get a good contractor or someone who works on old houses--they are artists--and turn the project over to them.

I'd do that before getting a HELOC, but YMMV:)

[iris lilies]

fidgie lives in a very cool old house and it's unlikely that she can find used windows for her project.

rodeo, I'm glad that your used window project worked, but here in my neighborhood you don't change the opening size to fit a smaller window. But then, we have uniform windows on the front facade.

I would worry about the looks of fidgie's house with used stuff. OTOH, new windows, if they aren't of appropriate mateials, can look bad, too. fidgie, are you required by historic standards to use wood windows on your house? The nice Historic Preservation lady from the state who advises on projects here really really REALLY likes it wen people rebuild their original windows.

[fidgiegirl]

Hi all,

Well, to answer some of where we're at with the windows, we decided to go for it. We still haven't answered the HELOC question, but we're going to make a few calls to better understand what it will involve. We don't even know the most basics about taking one out.

As far as the windows, basically Iris Lily captured our feelings. We are not governed by historic preservation guidelines, though they are just a few blocks away on stately Summit Ave. - but we want our windows to match the house as best we can. This is important to us living here and important to us for eventual resale. We ordered Marvins, and we ordered grids to match the grids on the original windows we have. And we decided on replacing eight rather than five. While they are not all awful (some are), we'll know when they were all put in, they'll be put in well, they'll match, etc. Oy!

DH has done some replacement windows in the past, and he might do our downstairs ones in the future. But this job was out of the scope of our skill.

Speaking of mold issues and cramming windows into openings that weren't correct, Steve is spot on the money. That is what has happened in our house. Instead of using slightly smaller windows in an opening as rodeosweetheart suggested, some former owners used slightly larger windows. They removed part of the original window opening to squeeze in the stock window, which the contractor believes has contributed to the rot problems. :( He is going to restore the openings to their proper size. This is part of why the cost is so high - because these aren't just replacement windows, the frames were all rotten and so we need to get the frame and everything. :( We are converting some of the casements over to double-hungs so that we can use window A/C units in those rooms if desired. Interestingly the reason we got into this whole project is because we were looking at putting in a whole-house A/C unit and didn't want to run the cables on a crappy exterior just to have them get in the way when we knew we inevitably would want to repair it.

No debt is ever a knee jerk, but I wonder if depleting our EF - severely - or getting the HELOC is worse. We are very good about not carrying a balance on the CC, so I don't worry about us abusing the HELOC. It would be for whatever amount of this project we are not comfortable paying in cash. I do believe we would have enough cash to cover it, but we'd be very depleted at the end and that's not a comfortable feeling, though I suppose it's six of one and half a dozen of the other either way, really.

[rodeosweetheart]

fidgie lives in a very cool old house and it's unlikely that she can find used windows for her project.

rodeo, I'm glad that your used window project worked, but here in my neighborhood you don't change the opening size to fit a smaller window. But then, we have uniform windows on the front facade.

I would worry about the looks of fidgie's house with used stuff. OTOH, new windows, if they aren't of appropriate mateials, can look bad, too. fidgie, are you required by historic standards to use wood windows on your house? The nice Historic Preservation lady from the state who advises on projects here really really REALLY likes it wen people rebuild their original windows.

Hi IR,

We did not use used windows. We went to an overstock window warehouse and found matching (as in same number of panes, etc.) replacement windows. The opening sizes were not changed. Any time you work on an old house, and ours was 200 years old, nothing is standard, and so we had to shim in extra wood to make things work out. We got as close as we could but sometimes there would be an inch difference to make up--it would have been the case if we had them all made, I suspect. The same outdoor trim and clapboards were replaced. My husband replaced the sills because they had rotted in places.

The lady from whom we bought the house had lived there 50 years. She had put in aweful Pella gas filled (no longer by time we got there) unopenable windows in the 70's. We replaced them with appropriate pane over pane windows. They were not wood as I was more concerned with getting them done affordably and quickly. They had a massive impact on heating the house the next year. We could also open windows again, which was very nice.

I did just read a MOther Earth that advised against window replacement for energy efficiency as it takes to long to recoup costs. We had no choice because like Fidgie, we had water leakage and rot to deal with.

Hope that clarifies things; our house was beautiful. I loved that house.

Edited to add--we did use all the old Pella windows and built a greenhouse with them. Also beautiful.

[iris lilies]

Hi IR,

We did not use used windows. We went to an overstock window warehouse and found matching (as in same number of panes, etc.) replacement windows. The opening sizes were not changed. Any time you work on an old house, and ours was 200 years old, nothing is standard, and so we had to shim in extra wood to make things work out. ...
a-hah, thanks for that explanation.

I'm sure that in our house where the windows are all one size, they are really not! You are right, things are never the same size and things aren't square.
I'll bet your house looked nice!

I love multiple pane-over-pane windows which was right for you older house.
I wanted 6 over 6 for my tiny cottage that has only 1 window on the front facade, but the historic preservation people said that's too many panes, my 1885ish house would have had 4 over 4, so that's what we did. In the back it might have had more pane because people in those days put their best window out front, the one with the least number of panes.

[SteveinMN]

I had no intent to offend, rodeosweetheart. I just have had different experience than you and DH have had. In my mid-70s rambler, only two of the windows are the same size though there was no room constraint to doing it otherwise. In my mom's place (ca. 1920), none of the windows are the same size, even in the 100-square-foot bedroom with two windows. So, yeah, "nothing is standard" is, umm, the standard.

The places around here that sell enough overstock windows so that you could reasonably match a set in the right size are few and far between. Ironic, since Marvin and Andersen Windows are in Minnesota and Pella and Weather Shield are in neighboring states. But assembling 6-10 windows that matched sufficiently in size and style and color would be an ambitious project here. I've looked at plenty of properties over the years, both for my own use and as investment properties. And if I saw a few vinyl sliders here and a couple of wood casements there and a couple of vinyl casements someplace else, then, yes, I'd start looking for what else was done with all eyes turned toward economy. Double that with the need to do the job right, as Kelli and Bryce are experiencing, and, well, it's just the way I see it. Sadly, it's done right far less often than it's done.

I'm also known for looking at the basement of a house as soon as I get in. Wires run straight from Point A to Point B say to me "I didn’t care about this much". Wires which are routed straight through the joists and turned where they need to be, do. It takes one or two extra minutes and an extra buck or two in wire to do it this way, but it's the difference to me between craftsmanship and "got 'r done."

[rodeosweetheart]

Fidgie, of all the windows I looked at, the wooden Marvins were by far the nicest, and the best way if you were doing historically accurate preservation. So great choice! I think you are wise to do it all at the same time given the rot problem, which is a horrible feeling and you have to stop it in its tracks.

Steve, I never thought about the shortcut of the wiring in the basement--good idea. We looked at one house last year that had wires running pell mell throughout--one electrician quoted 30000 to rewire the house,and the seller only wanted to credit 5. After the water turned up with bacteria in the well, we ran from that one, and felt we dodged a bullet.

Now I am thinking if I were in your shoes, I would do the HELOC. It ties it to the house, and that is where the money is going. I would not want to deplete my EF, because I get a lot of feeling of security from having one--you absolutely need one, no doubt about it.

On subject of historic windows, my sister in law was lucky enough to buy a house in Corning, NY with original windows (and Steuben lighting fixtures!). She has that beautiful wavy glass. She elected to keep them as is, which I would have done, too. My thought was to built an internal storm window, bumping out a few inches into the room. That way, they are easy to take on and off and the original windows serve as the outside, with a chamber for air insulation.

IR, I love the info about the size of pane and the "finer" window--fascinating, and the opposite of what we perceive nowadays.

So far, she has just made heavy, heavy window shades with that thermal liner. They are a good idea for the winter, but long term Id be trying to make a new storm window system. The old ones are such a pain and the house so tall.