View Full Version : The Paula Deen situation
I've never been a big fan of her's, but it seems like its really over-kill by so many companies that carry her stuff. And the complaint is what she "supposedly" said many years ago. It just seems really strange to me that all these companies have dropped her...........especially when their own corporate choices may not have been totally ethical in the past either.
I think it was unfair.
For some reason, this never showed up on "new posts", so I'm giving it a nudge.
Miss Cellane
6-29-13, 1:31pm
What she said years ago is only part of the story. There's a lawsuit filed by a former employee alleging that PD created a sexist and racist work environment. http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/paula-deen-lawsuit-bubba-hiers-lisa-jackson-food-network-297254
Well, I'm not a huge fan of Paula Deen (my DH cooks like her, and I'm constantly fighting with him about laying off the fried foods and the butter), BUT come on, if everyone who ever said a racist comment or looked at pornography was fired, I'd hate to think of what our economy would look like then.
That being said, I had to laugh when I read one blogger note that she said in her profuse apology that she thinks "ALL people are equal, no matter what the race or sexual preference".... clearly indicating that she believes that sexual orientation is a choice.. Paula, you should have someone edit your apologies to safeguard against adding fuel to the fire.
Well, I'm not a huge fan of Paula Deen (my DH cooks like her, and I'm constantly fighting with him about laying off the fried foods and the butter), BUT come on, if everyone who ever said a racist comment or looked at pornography was fired, I'd hate to think of what our economy would look like then.
That being said, I had to laugh when I read one blogger note that she said in her profuse apology that she thinks "ALL people are equal, no matter what the race or sexual preference".... clearly indicating that she believes that sexual orientation is a choice.. Paula, you should have someone edit your apologies to safeguard against adding fuel to the fire.
I took the sexual preference thing to mean she's okay with gays, not that its a choice. But who knows.
I'm getting pretty bummed out by all the manipulating and lying everyone seems to do all the time now. Its getting hard to really know what reality is. :(
Hey, I figured she was just a "celebrity" and down underneath a pretty ordinary human being. Don't like her cooking, cant stand her accent, and pretty much avoid any PD stuff. But the basic court issue was about a workplace problem. The media has blown everything up for "news".
What upsets me are the people who only read a headline and then go about spouting off about the topic without ever making a detailed analysis of the issue on their own or even reading the article.
This has, of course, been discussed to death all over the place, over this past week. The first question I asked, in the first discussion thread I saw for it, though, has never been answered: What were Deen's Food Network ratings this past year and how did they compare to the last five years? My suspicion at the time was that Deen's ratings have been falling and that her decline is at least somewhat responsible for Food Network's recent ratings troubles, which have been reported in the industry press.
Beyond that, regardless of whether or not her comments were too old to worry about or too offensive to overlook even after all this time, what's going on isn't really related to any of that. The media evidently figured it was a good time to pick someone to crucify, so they've done a great job escalating the matter (which perhaps just started as a matter of ratings, as alluded to above) just to stoke the fires, get web page hits, spike morning news ratings, etc.
You know, if that bit about the tap-dancing weren't bad enough, this would have been:
"In the meeting, Deen allegedly said: "If you think I have worked this hard to lose everything because of a piece of p***y, you better think again, and now I'm going to do something I have never done I am going to put a woman in a man's job."
That by itself would have been enough for me. (And I don't mind her celebration food at all.)
Obviously everybody looks down on somebody, this week it's Paula Deen. Next week someone else will upset the PC gods and be served up to give us our fix.
IMHO, the issue with Paula Deen was not just that she used a "reserved" word decades ago. I understand that white people growing up where she did when she did learned that word and that many of them use(d) it. It has no place these days, but her using it many years ago is a minor issue to me.
My issue is that Deen displays a certain cluelessness. The bit about the older black men serving a wedding in white suits -- was that really an esthetic choice? Even if it was, it's really tin-eared to not realize what that looks like in 21st-century America.
Then there was deep-frying and sugaring almost everything she cooked even after she was diagnosed as a diabetic. One wonders if she would ever have written a cookbook "lightening up" her normal cooking (due out this fall) if her condition had not been outed.
There was the utter lack of control Deen displayed in reacting to this situation. She didn't help herself with three poorly-edited barely-coherent YouTube videos, or by ditching The Today Show the morning she was scheduled to appear, or -- when she finally showed -- by inviting Today viewers to cast stones hard enough to kill her (http://video.app.msn.com/watch/video/paula-deen-today-show-emotional-interview-6-26-2013/284rn7ls4). :0!
And, of course, current modes of public discourse are to blame. There is no longer any neutral ground. As certain companies bailed quickly from this train wreck, the remaining companies didn't want it to look like their continued sponsored was approval of what she has done.
Just sad all around....
I've never heard of her before but she sounds like an all-around horrible person. Tar-and-feather her, and run her out of town on a rail!
Who's next?
Yes, its all gotten very circus-like in this country. I keep wondering when it will totally implode.........
It was so much better when you could round up a bunch of black children and have them tap dance at your wedding, re-creating that special ante-bellum feeling. [/sarcasm]
Should we prohibit black tap dancers from performing at weddings?
Have you read the article?
Yes, I read an accusation made by someone attempting to gain a large settlement, although I'd prefer not to judge people on hearsay, especially people who bear the burden of being perceived to have deep pockets.
Prudence prevents me from immediately jumping onto the tar & feathers bandwagon. There's already way too much of that.
gimmethesimplelife
6-29-13, 8:58pm
Yes, its all gotten very circus-like in this country. I keep wondering when it will totally implode.........
+1 You and me both. Rob
Race is a difficult topic in this country. Blowing up the legitimate questions being asked of Ms. Deen's behavior as an employer in a tense & complicated social dynamic is unfortunate. I hope the drama sparks some public conversations about race & class that are a bit more inquiry based, and much less accusatory and simplistic -- from all sides.
Having read the filed complaint by Ms Jackson, if everything she alleges is true -- good lord, I don't know how she managed 5 years in that position (i think she worked there 6 years total or thereabouts).
That, of course, is not meant to imply in any way that what she alleges *isn't* true. I don't know if it is or isn't. But when I read it, I was truly shocked that anyone would behave that way in a business environment (the way she described bubba as behaving).
iris lilies
6-30-13, 12:06pm
Race is a difficult topic in this country. Blowing up the legitimate questions being asked of Ms. Deen's behavior as an employer in a tense & complicated social dynamic is unfortunate. I hope the drama sparks some public conversations about race & class that are a bit more inquiry based, and much less accusatory and simplistic -- from all sides.
I've lived for decades now in a racially divided place and have heard for decades now the constantly expressed wish that we have "conversations" about race (and kudos to those who'd keep them out of accusations and simplic territory.)
So my question is this: what is the purpose of the conversation, and how will I know when we are done? Conversing about race, I mean. When can I cross that off of my checklist of things I am expected to do to avoid a label of "racist?"
I've lived for decades now in a racially divided place and have heard for decades now the constantly expressed wish that we have "conversations" about race (and kudos to those who'd keep them out of accusations and simplic territory.)
So my question is this: what is the purpose of the conversation, and how will I know when we are done? Conversing about race, I mean. When can I cross that off of my checklist of things I am expected to do to avoid a label of "racist?"
Your goal is to avoid being called racist?
iris lilies
6-30-13, 1:27pm
Your goal is to avoid being called racist?
Well, if I decline to participate in the conversation, am I? I don't know the perception of others.
Well, if I decline to participate in the conversation, am I? I don't know the perception of others.
Quick comments, as breakfast is waiting...
Being called a racist is actually a good thing. It means someone is pointing out something I did or said that is offensive. It's a moment to stop & take a look at this. Racism isn't all scary folks in white hoods. Here's an article about this...
http://www.stonekettle.com/2013/06/a-certain-kind-of-hate.html
What people think of me is far less important than who I am in those moments when in counts: the sick joke at the company party, the politician that uses a racial slur, the store cop who routinely follows all black men who come into the store. How do I speak up in these moments?
The coversation that is the one I most like to have is with my white friends about our own fears and gaffes. About our own experiences of being raised unconcious of the impacts of race, and of the givens of race privilege that we have simply for being white.
treehugger
6-30-13, 1:53pm
I really love this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc&feature=c4-overview&playnext=1&list=TLHkEhpZ6qOLQ) about how to talk about racism.
Kara
http://farm9.static.flickr.com/8449/8031504874_0045bd79bb.jpg
rosarugosa
6-30-13, 2:41pm
Great video, Kara.
bae, wanna apply a little context/personal content to the picture you posted?
I think what Bae posted in the perfect anti-model for talking about race. Or gender. Or sexual identity. Or any other difficult conversation about power and privilege. The so-called "self-criticism" and re-education campaigns in China were nothing other than brutal repression. If that's how conversations about race you're in are happening, then they're not conversations.
iris lilies
6-30-13, 3:05pm
http://farm9.static.flickr.com/8449/8031504874_0045bd79bb.jpg
Great photo, bae.
I think what Bae posted in the perfect anti-model for talking about race. Or gender. Or sexual identity. Or any other difficult conversation about power and privilege.
Got it in one, Redfox :-)
First, I see nothing wrong in re-examining one's values and beliefs. I know in today's America it's considered almost a mortal weakness to change one's mind or to consider whether "the way we've always done it" still achieves what one hopes it will. So be it. Examination does not have to mean "education camp"-style flagellation or cutting behaviors or other severe self-censorial actions. Thinking about a situation or issue through the lens of time and additional experience and approaching future incidents differently? I call that growth and maturation and I guess I don't see that as so difficult. But that's me in my gray little world.
Second, when people post just one item (a picture, a URL leading wherever) without any comment, as far as I'm concerned, it's a drive-by. I tend to ignore them because obviously the poster didn't think the post was worth any more effort. In this case, however, the juxtaposition of Vietnamese from 50 years ago and discussion of an American issue dating back hundreds of years spiked my curiosity. But if that's how people prefer to communicate, I'm okay with saving some time on these forums. :)
Actually, Steve, I selected that photo with great care. See, there was once this guy named Socrates....
Wait, let me back forwards: These "conversations" about...whatever touchy topic....seem to so often these days turn into Maoist-style mandatory self-criticism sessions. The Khmer Rouge made great use of them for imposing social control, manufacturing consent, and suppressing dissent, and we all know how well that turned out.
Perhaps I assume too much understanding of history, the community I live in is full of people engaged in "community conversations" run much along these lines. I wonder if they understand what they are doing?
The Punch-and-Judy show that is our national media these days doesn't help with matters.
I prefer the approach of Marcus Aurelius Antoninus Augustus instead:
“Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one.”
The most fun I have ever had talking about race... Yes, fun... was in an improv theatre workshop. It's a non-cognitive form of exploration & expression. We spent a weekend using the structures devised by Augusto Boal to explore varies aspects of racial & ethnic identity, in a mixed race and mixed religion group of about 30. Very skillfully facilitated by this dude:
http://www.mandalaforchange.com/our-team/
My experiences of talking about race have by & large been good, productive, insightful, and kind. Notice I did not say easy. Being the age I am -- 58 -- and white, I was raised in a racist family, time, & place. A kind of subtle, insidious, so-called benign racism. My Dad (a smart, kind, ethical man, of course) just yesterday asked my Mom, a former schoolteacher who taught in the 50's, if she could tell whether or not her very few black students were intellectually equal to her white students. He simply does not understand that this isn't in question; that race has no impact on intellectual capacity. He also still frames race in black/white terms, as was the national convo for decades.
It has taken me years of having my own words & actions challenged, being called racist, and the subsequent process of shock, frozen shame (that which I could not express such that it trapped me into defensiveness and denial), sadness, then reading & listening to the life experiences of many people of color to break through my own walls of "I'm not racist". Of course I am; in that almost mundane, unthinking way that I am also sometimes rude, short tempered, unkind.
I am horrified by the KKK, and I have racist reactions on a weekly basis that still shock me. Like: noticing being suspicious of two male teens walking down the street who are African American, but not of two male white teens. I nod my head knowingly when my neighbor Gary, the über highly paid IT consultant talks of being followed in EVERY store he goes into, and yet I am more scared of black & brown men than of white men.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
We all have prejudices and create assumptions based on faulty perceptions.
I recall being a substitute teacher in an English class, and making the snap judgment that the white lanky kid in the last row with long hair, totally disengaged was going to turn in a crappy paper, and the Asian in the first row who raised her hand constantly was going to hand in a great paper. WRONG. The boy's paper was far superior to the girl's. It was a slap in the face to me to think that I had jumped so quickly to the wrong conclusion.
I love people like Erin Brokovich (sp?) who help to break those conditioned beliefs about people.
It doesn't have to be racial or ethnic profiling. We do it every day with everyone.
But why is a person still called a racist, if they develop feelings about certain people who act and look the same. I'm having real problems with this entire concept. Yes, its not good to lump everyone of a certain race into one category, but is it being a racist, when you, on a daily basis, encounter people who act and look the same, who are very hostile/ignorant/aggressive?
We develop assumptions/prejudices as an instinctual part of self-preservation.
Sometimes I get tired of people trying to deny those feelings, saying we should always accept everyone equally. I don't agree with that.
But why is a person still called a racist, if they develop feelings about certain people who act and look the same.
I "profile" all the time, this has saved my life several times.
I don't profile by race though. I go by body language and behavior. Predators generally have a certain quite predictable set of "tells". Doesn't really matter what race or religion or social class they are. They also tend to be quite adept at reading your own body language, which you can turn to advantage.
CathyA, I'm not sure I understand your question. Would you be willing to clarify it for me?
I guess you could call me a racist, because I have an extreme dislike of certain individuals. If they all act and look the same, then I feel like my feelings are warranted. In our area, there's getting to be more and more of these types of people. They commit murders, bank robberies, etc., every day.....and I mean every day. They don't take care of their children. The public school system is having one hell of a time because they can't seem to teach the children of these kinds of people.
I feel that its perfectly okay for me to feel intense disgust and anger with these types of people............yet alot of people would call me a racist.
I don't feel the same about all people in this race. But every day, in every direction, I see their numbers expanding...............more violence, more welfare, etc., etc.
But I see lots of people saying its wrong to feel this way...........that its racism. I don't think that's right.
I don't think this country is making any progress at all, but it isn't always because of racists who won't let go of their feelings. Alot of times it is what it is..........the people they feel racist against are causing lots of problems. Denying this won't make it go away.
Bae.........I've tried to think of it in the terms you mentioned......that its the behavior, the predictable set of "tells" that I'm looking at, and not race............but it ends up being the same tells in many of these people all the time.
It seems like as I have gotten older, the more I feel this way. Maybe that's because I've had so many years of seeing their behavior getting worse.
I feel I'm a decent person..........a fair person. But I just can't tolerate violent/ignorant/aggressive behavior...........and I've made associations that would be silly not to make.
Maybe I'm not a racist, since I don't apply these feelings to everyone in the race. There are just so many of the bad ones around, I find myself feeling this way towards those particular ones often.
People say its an education problem, or a socio-economic problem. I don't think so. It seems inherent in some people that they can't be anything but aggressive/angry/violent.
Redfox........I guess what I was asking is what's so wrong with reacting to our environment with certain feelings........when reality leads us there? I get frustrated with people who talk about everyone being equal all the time, when they obviously aren't. And people are put down for having reasonable reactions to bad behavior.
I'm saying these things honestly and hope that I don't get flamed for being honest. I didn't want to feel this way about certain people.........but their behavior has led me to certain conclusions.
CathyA - it sounds to me like you have issues with a particular culture, not necessarily a particular race?
I think you're right Bae.........like a subculture.
But I do get frustrated when the officials try to be "politically correct" and not be direct about the problem. Like news stations that are putting out info about someone who has just committed a crime and we're supposed to be on the look-out for them, and they won't say their ethnicity. They sometimes say its caucasian, but they seem to avoid any other ethnicity. Or the city officials downplay crimes because they don't want people to know we have a problem here, with a certain group of people. I think dancing around some of the issues (even though it might be politically correct) is just allowing the problems to continue.
I am encouraged, though, by many of the local church people of the same ethnicity, trying to deal with the problem. But they don't seem to have much success.
I guess you could call me a racist, because I have an extreme dislike of certain individuals. If they all act and look the same, then I feel like my feelings are warranted. In our area, there's getting to be more and more of these types of people. They commit murders, bank robberies, etc., every day.....and I mean every day. They don't take care of their children. The public school system is having one hell of a time because they can't seem to teach the children of these kinds of people.
CathyA, You're expressing your own prejudice towards a race of people who I am assuming are African American. (Why do I assume this? Because your description is congrunt with the stereotype of African Americans in the US.) Your prejudices are based upon your experiences and on what you hear in the news, is this accurate? You reasonably find criminal behavior, child abandonment, etc. objectionable.
I feel that its perfectly okay for me to feel intense disgust and anger with these types of people............yet alot of people would call me a racist.
I don't feel the same about all people in this race. But every day, in every direction, I see their numbers expanding...............more violence, more welfare, etc., etc.
But I see lots of people saying its wrong to feel this way...........that its racism. I don't think that's right.
I don't think this country is making any progress at all, but it isn't always because of racists who won't let go of their feelings. Alot of times it is what it is..........the people they feel racist against are causing lots of problems. Denying this won't make it go away.
Bae.........I've tried to think of it in the terms you mentioned......that its the behavior, the predictable set of "tells" that I'm looking at, and not race............but it ends up being the same tells in many of these people all the time.
It seems like as I have gotten older, the more I feel this way. Maybe that's because I've had so many years of seeing their behavior getting worse.
I feel I'm a decent person..........a fair person. But I just can't tolerate violent/ignorant/aggressive behavior...........and I've made associations that would be silly not to make.
Maybe I'm not a racist, since I don't apply these feelings to everyone in the race. There are just so many of the bad ones around, I find myself feeling this way towards those particular ones often.
People say its an education problem, or a socio-economic problem. I don't think so. It seems inherent in some people that they can't be anything but aggressive/angry/violent.
Are "these types" of criminals regardless of their race, or only criminals of the race you have noticed you have a prejudice for? How is it that you see their numbers expanding? Is this based upon news reports? How does prejudice in the news support or challenge assumptions about different types of people? Why do you think certain behaviors are inherent?
How does the information you're taking in support a perception bias; that is, if you only see & hear news about Puerto Ricans robbing banks & committing murder, and you hear that all the time, do you wonder if in fact all Puerto Ricans are criminals, or perhaps there is a bias against these folks?
Redfox........I guess what I was asking is what's so wrong with reacting to our environment with certain feelings........when reality leads us there? I get frustrated with people who talk about everyone being equal all the time, when they obviously aren't. And people are put down for having reasonable reactions to bad behavior.
I'm saying these things honestly and hope that I don't get flamed for being honest. I didn't want to feel this way about certain people.........but their behavior has led me to certain conclusions.
You ask what's wrong with reacting to our environment with certain feelings. I would say that reacting is based in the limbic brain, and reacting with feelings often manifests as fear. Is that how you wish to live? How would your experiences of life be different if instead of being reactive, you approached these scary, angry beliefs about this race of people with curiosity, and thoughtfulness from your cognitive brain?
There is a lot of writing and research about perception biases, about how the images of criminals is heavily slanted towards images of African Americans as the worst of the worst, of how the media furthers these images. If you want to stop feeling this way towards certain people, I would enourage you to challenge your own beliefs with other information and perspectives. Racist beliefs hold us all hostage.
I have many resources I can refer you to if you wish. Racism is complex. Undoing racism is not happening quickly. I believe that what each of us can do is look into our own beliefs and assumptions, setting aside the conviction that what we believe is truth, and look for the many other ways to frame the story.
Nice post, redfox
CathyA, thank you for your candor.
On fear, I would recommend Gavin de Becker's "The Gift Of Fear" - sometimes "fear" is important and learning to properly listen to and harness that part of your brain ca be very helpful.
On fear, I would recommend Gavin de Becker's "The Gift Of Fear" - sometimes "fear" is important and learning to properly listen to and harness that part of your brain can be very helpful.
Yes. The limbic brain exists for a purpose, as does perception bias. When driving down the street, if I catch movement out of the corner of my eye, my fear arises, my perception bias says "small child!", and I hit the brakes. No harm if it's actually a bag blowing down the street. Using this rapid response, a.k.a. reactivity, to every life situation is illogical and problematic.
My stance: in as many circumstances as is possible, use all data that arises from the limbic brain to inform the cognitive & one's decisions, not the reverse.
My stance: in as many circumstances as is possible, use all data that arises from the limbic brain to inform the cognitive & one's decisions, not the reverse.
Just so!
I need to drop by for that coffee sometime, I think we're more on the same wavelength than not :-)
Just so!
I need to drop by for that coffee sometime, I think we're more on the same wavelength than not :-)
Lovely... PM me whenever you'd like to connect! I'll be in SJC end of July.
CathyA, You're expressing your own prejudice towards a race of people who I am assuming are African American. (Why do I assume this? Because your description is congrunt with the stereotype of African Americans in the US.) Your prejudices are based upon your experiences and on what you hear in the news, is this accurate? You reasonably find criminal behavior, child abandonment, etc. objectionable.
Wow. I totally thought Hispanic. Maybe because I live in the Southwest? But it goes to show that assume makes an ass out of you and me.
All that aside and back to the original topic, Paula Deen deserves to be dropped like a hot potato by sponsors. For the companies, she's become a liability so instead of helping them sell stuff, she's detracting. It's not precisely the same but not terribly far away from the Lance Armstrong situation. If a celebrity's "brand" suddenly and irreversibly goes south, he or she is now no longer useful for corps to pay for. Doesn't matter how true the allegations are, either. If there seems to be credible evidence that the public accepts, it's enough. This sucks for celebrities who get falsely accused it but it's not something constitutionally guaranteed like the right to a fair trial during a criminal investigation. A particularly astute celebrity would write a contract specifying some sort of failsafe for that eventuality. Especially if he or she were prone to cheating, racism, or having affairs.
Actually, Steve, I selected that photo with great care. See, there was once this guy named Socrates....
Well, I didn't think you typed nonsense into Google and then clicked "I feel lucky". I know the picture was there for a reason. But "drive-bys" are a button for me. In forums like these, context helps avoid possible misunderstanding.
These "conversations" about...whatever touchy topic....seem to so often these days turn into Maoist-style mandatory self-criticism sessions. The Khmer Rouge made great use of them for imposing social control, manufacturing consent, and suppressing dissent, and we all know how well that turned out.
I guess, where I am, I'm just not seeing that as widespread enough to consider it a general rule. Self-criticism does not always have to result in Scarlet-Letter-esque branding or drastic changes in behavior. And, sometimes, forcing that examination en masse works for the public good: smoking and drunk driving -- two very harmful behaviors -- never faded as quickly as when public sentiment turned against the practitioners. I suppose that point of view gores the true libertarians, but no man is an island (even if he happens to live on one ;)). Society should be allowed to discourage negative behaviors. I'll grant that this can run amok (I just read a news article about your own state directing its schools to change the word penmanship to handwriting). Like any behavior, moderation is key.
Perhaps I assume too much understanding of history, the community I live in is full of people engaged in "community conversations" run much along these lines. I wonder if they understand what they are doing?
History was never my favorite subject in school, but I have other areas of expertise. There are all kinds of understanding in the world. :)
The Punch-and-Judy show that is our national media these days doesn't help with matters.
Amen to that. There are pockets of thoughtful media (on all sides of the thought spectrum). But the most popular media organizations do little to aid in understanding complex issues and -- too often -- engage in fear-mongering because that draws the eyeballs (and, therefore, the dollars).
In light of how the city news seems to try overly-hard to not be biased, you'd think they would always tell when a white person committed a crime. This city (which I don't live in, but live near), is getting very high in crime. I'm always surprised when a crime is actually done by whites.....since its less common. I'm really not trying to be "fair" and sensitive to these types of criminals. Of course I dislike criminals of all ethnicities, but when there appears to be an over abundance of the ones that seem the most violent/inhuman/ignorant, I'm not going to like people who look and act like them. When people look at you like they'd like to slit your throat, and refuse to speak in an understandable manner.......of course I'm not going to like it. We've had those types of young people shoot randomly into a group of innocent people. When there is a big yearly convention of them, there always seems to be some violent problem connected with it.
I don't feel bad, being considered a racist, because I consider myself a fair, reasonable person. If one is only considered fair and reasonable because they overlook certain behavior types, or try to wear rose-colored glasses all the time, then I'll just never be considered fair or reasonable. I do try to take each person on their own merit........no matter what the race.......but when the unsavory types seem to be growing in numbers, moving into many neighborhoods, which then develop higher crime rates..........well, I'm just not going to like it. Nor am I going to try to sugar-coat it all and make excuses for them. I see people bending over backwards to not upset them, for fear of them crying "race".........and tolerating stuff that they would never tolerate in others, and I find it really irritating.
And there ARE cultural differences. But America thinks its a big melting pot where everyone can live happily next to each other and if you don't, then we might be a failed experiment. I think that's why there is still racism today..........there is a reason for it, which can be justified. (But that's a whole other post). But we keep pretending that everyone is getting along.
I voted for Obama twice now, if that makes a difference. But I really don't care what people think of me. Its not going to change my feelings. Many times I have sensed something happening before others, and I feel it in this situation too. As a country, we're falling apart, partly due to the fact that we're too accepting of too much, and we're trying to let everyone have their own ways...........and groups are clashing.
I will continue to try to be a fair person, but I'm not going to accept behavior I find disgusting.......and that will only hurt the country. I don't know what the answer is. I know I can't articulate some of my feelings like many of you can, but I try.
Wow. I totally thought Hispanic. Maybe because I live in the Southwest? But it goes to show that assume makes an ass out of you and me... .
Not really. CathyA has voiced her feelings about Hispanics--and their language--in earlier posts.
See............Jane, you're implying that I'm racist against Hispanics too. What I said many months ago (years?) was: 1) I was disappointed that our local PBS station was adding another station, but it was in spanish. I was disappointed because we don't have cable or satellite and I was hoping for more quality TV for us. And 2) yes, I expect people who come here to live, to learn the English language, rather than everyone having to figure out Spanish. I see nothing racist about either of these things.
And there ARE cultural differences. But America thinks its a big melting pot where everyone can live happily next to each other and if you don't, then we might be a failed experiment. I think that's why there is still racism today..........there is a reason for it, which can be justified. (But that's a whole other post). But we keep pretending that everyone is getting along.
It sounds like we should be surprised if people co-exist by transcending cultural difference, and that's not true either. My neighborhood is a model of diversity.. If I look out my window, I see the homes of my neighbors: Chinese, next to mixed couple (Haitian/British), next to Jewish, next to Italian, next to Black, next to Indian, next to Muslim, next to WASP (oops, how did they slip in--oh, that's my BIL :) We have all lived together for many years--when I enrolled my kids in the grammar school here, I loved the fact that I couldn't pronounce most of the names on their class roster.. unlike the white bread neighborhood I came from in upstate NY.
I feel that it's perfectly legitimate to put up your fear feelers when they are warranted, and it's perfectly normal to go from "there are a half-dozen people that look scary and threatening" to "[I]those people are scary and threatening." I think being aware of those feelings, as redfox pointed out can help put each feeling in its place. I think all of us have to work at minimizing the "those people" thoughts. Truthfully, "those people" are us and we are them. If we can realize that, and try to raise the bar of compassion and understanding we may get somewhere to reversing the separation/fear/disgust we feel. If we give in to "those people" negative thoughts, it really perpetuates a counter-productive downward spiral.
Thanks Catherine,
I think I DO do that. I try to keep my disgust and impatience to only the criminal/hostile element and try to find more compassion for others of the same race. But it can be a challenge when there are so many of the hostile kind, at least locally.
Gingerella72
7-1-13, 12:13pm
CathyA, let me ask this: if all of these crimes in your area were being committed by white people, would you begin viewing all white people askance? Be wary of other white people, just because they're white?
Hi Gingerella,
Actually I was just thinking about this......but maybe from a different perspective. If I am disgusted/irritated/offended by certain groups of white people, does that make me racist? So if I do the same thing with certain types of individuals in other races, why does that make me more of a racist, than if I apply the same feelings towards individuals in my own race?
Perhaps we all have a different definition of being a racist. Is it if you apply certain negative terms/feelings towards the entire race? Or is it when you only apply it to a sub-group of that race?
To answer your question, I probably would be wary of people who looked and acted just like "bad" white people. Its a very long continuum of knowing when to draw a line with certain behaviors. I might see a poor white/disheveled/dirty/smelly person in the grocery store, but it doesn't elicit any reaction in me. Just like if I see what appear to be reasonable blacks or hispanics or Indians or anyone. But if they are of a race that has grown up in this country, but can't talk in a way that most whites can understand, or their pants are lower than their underwear, they are extremely loud, or they look at you with total disgust.............then it gets my attention...and ire. And it does bother me that day after day after day, there are crimes in the same areas, the same type of bank robbers, the same type of carjackings, the same type of shooters, etc., etc. I would be pretty stupid to not make a few deductions, based on audio/visual cues.
I'm thinking there are probably a fair number of people here who are agreeing with me, or have similar feelings, but can't express it, because its such a taboo to even hint that a certain type of people bother them.
Like I said........accepting certain people (no matter what the race) has a long continuum. At one end are people who hate every single person of a certain race. At the other end are people who I consider fairly naiive, who think that everyone is good. I fall somewhere on the line in the middle. I
I found that the more media I used to consume, the more I carried the gut feeling that a crime was committed on every street corner, that there's a carjacking every minute, that life is dangerous and most urban neighborhoods are like war zones.
Having the "if it bleeds, it leads" mentality means the media must perform a concentrated and dramatic calling out of every single crime they think might pull at someone's emotions. Read "Culture of Fear" if you would really like to see what all those dire crime statistics mean, how they are skewed to make you think & behave in specific ways, and how it might be affecting how you view your world. I think it might not be so hard to "try to keep your disgust" with just criminals if the news media you consumed were ALSO interested in broadcasting stories of people from these same ethnic groups' noble actions, strong family loyalties, and overcoming obstacles to success.
Out in the country where you live, you don't see the full story, you see only what the media force-feeds you, so you have an unbalanced view of what life is really like among other ethnic groups. I have noticed that to be very common among people who simply aren't exposed (in person) very often to different populations.
I have a low tolerance for racial/sexual slurs and bullying in the workplace, so on the Deen affair I just shrug. A shame she is that way, and the little I've heard of the feeding frenzy is of course sickening, but really, I don't think it's possible for someone so much in the public eye to get their comeuppance quietly and without fanfare. That kind of scrutiny is the price of admission for that lifestyle.
I do like to listen to the news, in order to know what's going on around me. And if a crime occurs, and someone is found guilty, that isn't being made up for bias.
I haven't always lived in the country. I worked in a large hospital in the inner city. I'm not naive or lack experience.
I know there are alot of good, decent people from all races. I'm just saying that sometimes one sub-group of a certain race seems to cause more problems than others.
I just don't find having that attitude as a problem for me. I think alot of people have it, but know its not P.C., so they keep it inside.
And like I said, I find it curious that so many companies dumped Paula Deen so fast, when they themselves have made many unethical choices in their businesses, I'm sure. But I realize that its all about money.
I do like to listen to the news, in order to know what's going on around me. And if a crime occurs, and someone is found guilty, that isn't being made up for bias.
The concern I have is the bias in news reporting, as well as in the treatment of people of color in the criminal justice system. There is a ton of research documenting this. It's one of the reasons I don't listen to the news -- I can no longer tolerate the racial bias.
And it does bother me that day after day after day, there are crimes in the same areas, the same type of bank robbers, the same type of carjackings, the same type of shooters, etc., etc. I would be pretty stupid to not make a few deductions, based on audio/visual cues.
I'm thinking there are probably a fair number of people here who are agreeing with me, or have similar feelings, but can't express it, because its such a taboo to even hint that a certain type of people bother them.
I feel very differently about the Hispanic family that volunteers with mine to clean up bike paths vs. a group of Hispanic people who are obviously part of a gang. That makes me prudent, not a racist. The whole PC thing is out of hand anyway, but when the day comes that I have to be accepting of MS13 members in my neighborhood or risk being labeled a racist... Let's just say I will have words a lot more colorful than Paula Deen's to toss at my accuser (no matter what color they are).
That's what I'm saying Gregg. But some people on this forum seem to think its all racism.
The first question I asked, in the first discussion thread I saw for it, though, has never been answered: What were Deen's Food Network ratings this past year and how did they compare to the last five years? My suspicion at the time was that Deen's ratings have been falling and that her decline is at least somewhat responsible for Food Network's recent ratings troubles, which have been reported in the industry press.
I suspect that is true. Stars eventually burn out. Her's just went super nova.
Obviously everybody looks down on somebody, this week it's Paula Deen. Next week someone else will upset the PC gods and be served up to give us our fix.
"The world is a magical place filled with people waiting to be offended by something." Anon.
Should we prohibit black tap dancers from performing at weddings?
Would it be better if they were white and only painted their faces black?
The concern I have is the bias in news reporting, as well as in the treatment of people of color in the criminal justice system. There is a ton of research documenting this. It's one of the reasons I don't listen to the news -- I can no longer tolerate the racial bias.
Not just in the coverage of the perpetrators, either. When an attractive young white child goes missing, it becomes national news. Yet they say three quarters of missing kids are non-white...and when was the last time you saw a JonBenet Ramsey-style media frenzy about finding any one of them? How many can anyone name off the top of their heads?
Race aside, mainstream news reports what Arbitron/Nielsen ratings tell them we want to know. What will incite us to keep listening, in panic and dread, for the next crime and the next and the next. What sells.
And, respectfully, the news is not "what's going on." It's a small subset of what's going on, usually far away, and inflated to create high drama, giving us the comforting illusion that we're informed. It's not telling you about the charities being formed by people of color, the community service being done by Muslim houses of worship, the immigrants busting their butts to gain citizenship and become good Americans, the myriad community efforts by people of all creeds and colors that would give a real balance to what you hear.
The real world is not like broadcast/radio news. Nothing like it. Life is much, much bigger, and honestly we have much more important things to solve together if we're going to survive as a species. That's why there's no room for throwbacks like Paula Deen, who are not just racist bullies, but stupid enough to parade it in front of the world. As an old friend used to say, "Stupid ought to hurt."
[QUOTE=puglogic;147110]
And, respectfully, the news is not "what's going on." It's a small subset of what's going on...."
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/q71/s720x720/421363_10151515163087909_1044076410_n.jpg
Gingerella72
7-1-13, 3:51pm
When I see on the news that a crime has been committed, and the person just happens to be of Hispanic or African American descent, I think how unfortunate it is that this human being made this horrible choice.....not "that stupid Mexican, how typical" etc.
There is a difference between being wary of and wanting to keep your distance from shady-looking people, and being wary of a whole class of people because you assume they're all going to "be that way". If you see someone in a store give you a look of utter disgust or some other wary action, it is because he/she is a horrible human being, not that he/she is a horrible human being because of their race.
It all comes down to your perspective, and your method of communicating your perspective. Regarding Paula Deen, if the allegations brought forth from her former employee are true, then it's obvious that she and her colleagues see absolutely nothing wrong with how they were conducting business, and is evident of the whole "white vs other" mindset that many people still have today. It's actually quite disgusting how many people today have these long held, simmering racist views underneath the polite PC veneer.
That's what I'm saying Gregg. But some people on this forum seem to think its all racism.
1. Do you regularly disparage others based on their race?
2. Do you regularly discriminate against others or try to get people or governments to discriminate against others based on race?
3. Do you believe you are superior to someone else based on your race?
No? Then sorry Cathy, you're probably not a racist.
There is a long history of white privilege in the US. It's not built on a particularly strong moral foundation, but it does exist. I'm white. Directly or indirectly I benefit from that, but even if I knowingly took advantage of it that wouldn't necessarily make me a racist. I don't know if Paula Deen is racist or not, never met her. I do know she comes from a culture and a time when racism and that white privilege were both quite pronounced. Even if she is one vote shy of becoming the grand pooh-bah of the KKK the reaction to her ACTUAL "crime" (even if the behavior is disgusting) seems a little out of proportion.
Two generations back the part of my family that came from the south was known to use the dreaded "N" word. As far as I know they didn't mean it to be derogatory, it was just one informal term from their vocabulary assigned to dark skinned people. I really don't know the history of when the word made the full conversion to racial slur. I really don't know why it is no big deal for rappers to use it 30 times in a single song or Chris Rock in a monologue, but will end the career of a popular, white celebrity? I don't know why calling someone dark skinned a n___ is so terrible, but no body would care if that same dark person called me a cracker? I don't know what happens if a white rapper uses the N word? (Guess I need to watch 8 Mile to get culturally literate on that one.)
There is a difference between being wary of and wanting to keep your distance from shady-looking people, and being wary of a whole class of people because you assume they're all going to "be that way".
I think that's true, but it works a little differently in the real world. If you perceive a threat from a certain group then you have a cause to be wary of that group. If the first layer of the onion is "Hispanic" (for example) then you will be wary of all Hispanics until you can get to know more about the individual. If layer #2 is "gang member" then once you know the Hispanic grandmother you met isn't in a gang you should be comfortable letting your guard down. The first part is just human nature and isn't necessarily bad, its just part of self preservation instincts. Now, if you're not able to get past that with people who are obviously not a threat then that could be a problem.
Gingerella72
7-1-13, 4:05pm
To add to the discussion....
http://gawker.com/paula-deen-shame-meets-our-appetites-but-its-not-very-612849267
"I have a hard time believing Garcia's or Zoeller's—or Deen's—cares ever extended beyond the thought that they might lose lots of money for publicly spouting the bigotry they normally reserve for private. What celebrities who say racist, sexist, anti-Semitic, or homophobic things seem to learn in America is that they shouldn't say that stuff because it can be detrimental to their business, not because it is detrimental to the world around them."
Here is a link to the organization whose anti-racist principles, teachings, & practices I most appreciate. I highly recommend their three day training. They focus on undoing institutional racism. I am particularly interested in the concept of Gatekeepers, and how those of us who are gatekeepers use our power & privilege.
Learning about white power & privilege has been eye-opening for me. Class & gender factor in, but keeping the focus on understanding race-based power, as a white person, is illuminating.
http://www.pisab.org/our-principles
"Undoing Racism is not a two day workshop...it is a way of life." Deena Hayes, PISAB CORE Trainer
Additional resources:
http://www.changelabinfo.com/
http://www.timwise.org/
The problem with Deen is that her employers primarily target middle-aged white women who wouldn't much like her discriminatory hiring practices, salty--and sometime racist--language, her brother Bubba's porn predilections (at the workplace!), and her idea of appropriate wedding entertainment. It's not just a matter of a one-time slipup. Why would they want to take that on?
It's actually quite disgusting how many people today have these long held, simmering racist views underneath the polite PC veneer.
I agree, it's disgusting. But, in my experience large segments of the population are obsessed with race and gender, especially white, mostly liberal, segments of the population. Nearly 50 years after the fact, so many still can't judge others on the content of their character rather than the color of their skin. If I were not a white male, I'd be incensed with the condescending attitudes expressed by many in their efforts to help me since my race obviously trumps my abilities or merit and I could not possibly improve my life without their gracious attention. But maybe that's just me...
I think it's also off-puting to allege that if someone expresses concern with the influx of illegial aliens, they're a racist. If someone disagrees with the policies of our president, they're a racist. If someone veers off of the politically correct speech codes of the day, they're a racist. The vast majority of times, when the 'you're a racist' line comes out, race isn't even part of the issue, it's just traditionally been the most effective way to silence someone who might dare to disagree on a point and it's guaranteed to put the offender on the defensive.
The good thing is, the race card has been so over-played over the past 5 years that it's lost it's effectiveness with most folks, thank goodness.
I still don't understand some of what some of you are saying. You're essentially saying that I can't trust anything I hear on the news. I'm talking about the local news.......where certain individuals commit crimes and are arrested. How can that be made up? It bothers me that some of you can't seem to differentiate between feeling a certain way about some individuals who act/look the same and being a racist of the entire race. Are you saying I can't find a certain sub-group of a race unacceptable, without damning the entire race? It seems like that's what you are saying.
Gregg......as to your questions: Yes to #1, only if we're talking about a fairly criminal/lazy/having no interest in bettering themselves subgroup of a race and no to the other 2.
Like I said earlier............why can I find certain types of whites reprehensible/causing societal problems, but I'm not considered a racist towards them?
Seems like some of your thinking is all or nothing. Life isn't that black and white..........so to speak.
In real life, I think alot of you would find me quite fair and reasonable.
Miss Cellane
7-1-13, 5:16pm
I still don't understand some of what some of you are saying. You're essentially saying that I can't trust anything I hear on the news. I'm talking about the local news.......where certain individuals commit crimes and are arrested. How can that be made up? It bothers me that some of you can't seem to differentiate between feeling a certain way about some individuals who act/look the same and being a racist of the entire race. Are you saying I can't find a certain sub-group of a race unacceptable, without damning the entire race? It seems like that's what you are saying.
Gregg......as to your questions: Yes to #1, only if we're talking about a fairly criminal/lazy/having no interest in bettering themselves subgroup of a race and no to the other 2.
Like I said earlier............why can I find certain types of whites reprehensible/causing societal problems, but I'm not considered a racist towards them?
Seems like some of your thinking is all or nothing. Life isn't that black and white..........so to speak.
In real life, I think alot of you would find me quite fair and reasonable.
Cathy, it is not so much that you can't trust the news. Usually, there is truth in what is reported. So if there is a crime, that's true. If they caught someone and have evidence to prove s/he did the crime, that's true.
But you can't trust the news not to put a spin on the truth. To slant the reporting. To hide some facts while highlighting others.
As said upthread, a missing white child gets full, national coverage. Missing children who aren't white get, in many cases, minimal to no coverage, or only local coverage. That's your news--they aren't reporting a falsehood, but they aren't reporting the entire truth, either.
So it is possible, if the news station has a racist manager, that only crimes committed by people of color get coverage, or that white criminals get more favorable coverage than minorities, or any of a hundred other ways to slant the truth of what's really going on. So then, if that news station is your main source of news, you have an incorrect view of who is committing crimes in your area--because you only hear about the crimes committed by non-white people.
It's not that you can't trust what's said on the news as much as it is that you have no idea what they are *not* telling you.
Gingerella72
7-1-13, 5:50pm
I agree, it's disgusting. But, in my experience large segments of the population are obsessed with race and gender, especially white, mostly liberal, segments of the population. Nearly 50 years after the fact, so many still can't judge others on the content of their character rather than the color of their skin. If I were not a white male, I'd be incensed with the condescending attitudes expressed by many in their efforts to help me since my race obviously trumps my abilities or merit and I could not possibly improve my life without their gracious attention. But maybe that's just me...
I think it's also off-puting to allege that if someone expresses concern with the influx of illegial aliens, they're a racist. If someone disagrees with the policies of our president, they're a racist. If someone veers off of the politically correct speech codes of the day, they're a racist. The vast majority of times, when the 'you're a racist' line comes out, race isn't even part of the issue, it's just traditionally been the most effective way to silence someone who might dare to disagree on a point and it's guaranteed to put the offender on the defensive.
The good thing is, the race card has been so over-played over the past 5 years that it's lost it's effectiveness with most folks, thank goodness.
There's a world of difference between simply disagreeing with the President's policies and saying so, and calling him a ****** and hoping he gets lynched because you disagree with his policies. How can you say the latter isn't racist?
How can you say the latter isn't racist?
I didn't.
The vast majority of times, when the 'you're a racist' line comes out, race isn't even part of the issue, it's just traditionally been the most effective way to silence someone who might dare to disagree on a point and it's guaranteed to put the offender on the defensive.
It's just yet-another thought-terminating cliché as per Lifton.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/51/Thought_Reform_Lifton.jpg
You're essentially saying that I can't trust anything I hear on the news. I'm talking about the local news.......where certain individuals commit crimes and are arrested. How can that be made up?
That's not made up. But what some people are saying (and I agree with them) is that your local news is not giving you the entire picture. Whoever accepts the picture of The Way Things Are by watching local TV news is being shown the most extreme sensational behavior. Conclusions drawn from watching that are not accurate.
Are you saying I can't find a certain sub-group of a race unacceptable, without damning the entire race? It seems like that's what you are saying.
You are keying on race, not behavior. Bad behavior is bad behavior; it doesn't matter what color person does it. Take a particular behavior. In your geographical area, it tends to be exhibited in the majority -- maybe exclusively -- by people of a specific race. In my area, seeing a teenager or a young man in his 20s with the below-the-knees pants and the bling and the 'tude could mean I'm looking at a black guy. Or a Hispanic guy. Or an Asian guy. Or a white guy. That look is is a wannabe uniform around here >8) But I never expect every 20-something guy to look that way. (And I kind of have to laugh a little because that look costs $$$. Poor and desperate don't wear the "correct" athletic shoes, the logo shirt, and the fancy pants.)
There is also causality. People around here who have trashy front yards tend to be poor. Around here, most poor people are people of color. So when you see a trashy yard, you typically also see a black family or a Hispanic family or ... But to state that no people of color have nice yards (because you've never seen it) or that every tidy yard belongs to white people (out of subtraction) -- that's racism. It's poverty (and maybe free time to take care of the yard instead of work or the kids), not race, at work here.
Maybe it's more accurate to say you are being prejudiced.
why can I find certain types of whites reprehensible/causing societal problems, but I'm not considered a racist towards them?
White people can be racist about whites -- think KKK. They think whites are better just because of their color. They also hate homosexuals. And Jews. All of whom can be as white as we are. Hitler hated anyone who was deeply religious; color didn't matter. The (Oxford Dictionary) definition of racism is "the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races."
I also think members of a particular race/ethnic group give each other a bit of a pass on racism. That's why it's OK for a black rapper to use the N word dozens of times in one rap but not okay for a white guy to refer to black guys that way. It's why gay people can make jokes about being gay that straight people would be at least uncomfortable making.
I also think some of the issue here is definition. Alan's most recent post about who gets called "racist" is an example -- the word is tossed about inaccurately and with intent to shut down discussion rather than point out specific behaviors on the part of the person using the word.
The vast majority of times, when the 'you're a racist' line comes out, race isn't even part of the issue, it's just traditionally been the most effective way to silence someone who might dare to disagree on a point and it's guaranteed to put the offender on the defensive.
I've thought the same when people play the PC accusation card.
In real life, I think alot of you would find me quite fair and reasonable.
I have no doubts about that whatsoever, CathyA. Anyone who appreciates spiderwebs and mushrooms is alright in my book.
I was blessed with an upbringing - and current life - where I can freely experience the goodness present in a wide variety of races and ethnicities. I see immigrants doing bad things; I see other immigrants doing breathtakingly wonderful things. I can balance the good with the bad, see things for what they are, and judge people solely on their behavior rather than making sweeping judgments about all African Americans, all immigrants, all Muslims, all French people....
And for the record, I bristle at "white jokes" and "husband jokes" as much as I bristle at anything else. I find all racism & sexism icky and gross and counterproductive in our effort to build a better world; the mark of an unevolved soul.
Thanks Steve and Pug.
and about the spiderwebs and mushrooms......:thankyou:
iris lilies
7-1-13, 8:25pm
We have an unfortunate race-baiting issue going on in my neighborhood at the moment:
Off-lease dog chased black man. Black man ran, afraid of dog. Dog owner caught up with dog and without a word leashed the dog and took dog home.
In an email to the entire neighborhood listserv, witness described incident and asked question: would dog owner have apologized if the man chased wasn't black?
Having insider information, I know that
1) dog owner is in a war with his neighbor; the witness making the listserv post is a very close friend of that warring neighbor
2) witness was at the center of a large race-based neighborhood issue many years ago--methinks he likes the idea of education camps since he and his wife were instrumental in organizing those "conversations about race" that everyone in the neighborhood was expected to attend.
It is NEVER ok for a dog to be out of control and chasing a human in an aggressive manner--NEVER. We could argue about how "aggressive" this is since the dog is elderly and ill, but suffice to say that I'll agree that the black guy was probably scared of the dog, a Shepard. So what this is about is a dog behaving badly while her owner allowed it. It wasn't about race, but the email message to the neighborhood is race baiting.
I had to have a wee chat with some hipsters who rented the home up the road from me for the summer. They are far whiter than I am, and clearly feel entitled due to structural hipsterism in Seattle society.
Their dog is often uncontrolled. And when I am walking my large, powerful hound dog on his tracking harness, it runs out their lane, and nips at his and my heels - it is some sort of sheep herding breed, and clearly has never had a real job.
Anyways, this distracts and upsets my dog, which is a bit dangerous as he could drag me for miles if too excited, or decide that it is time to go off-duty and deal with the threat, which would be bad for his training and messy.
The sheep dog also comes after me when I am on my solo hiking for exercise.
So, I pointed out to The Entitled city folk that in this county, dogs are required to be under control, and uncontrolled dogs harassing people or livestock may be legally shot, and that there is a sign to that effect on the main road for goodness sake. And that while *I* like dogs, I'm also not going to submit to being bit, or having my valuable search and rescue dog injured, so they'd best keep their dog on leash or in their fenced yard.
They looked at me like I was a cracker.
Culture, not race.
And that is why I fear moving--not that I own a dog or that I would move to a place where dogs are shot at will--but you never know what awaits you.
I lived in a relatively affluent suburb as a teen, and man, did we have dog issues. it was a rather rural area (the edge of suburbia, then), and people would let their dogs out during the day. no one had fences.
People would open the door in themorning, let the dog out, and then wouldn't bring them in until evening time (dinner or whatever). So, roving packs of dogs was apparently normal. My parents took issue, and yes, everyone treated them as if they were overreacting. My father pointed out that dogs biting children = dead dogs, so please control your dogs. But as there were no leash laws, etc, no one paid any attention.
I remember there were no leash laws in my town either, when I was young. One time my best friend who lived next door asked me if I wanted to go for a walk. So I said I had to ask my mother. My mother said, "Is her mother going with you?" I kind of thought she was but didn't know for sure, so I said yes.
When I met my friend I asked where her mother was, and she said that her mother wasn't coming. So we set off on our walk. I never bothered going back home to update my mother. We didn't even get to the end of the street when a dog came charging out of a yard and chased us barking and yapping all the way.. we ran all the way home--terrified!!!
So I ran to the person I most expected to give me sympathy--my mother. After I got the story out inbetween the pants and the sobs, what did she do? She spanked me. She thought I lied to her about the mother going. It's the only time I was ever spanked, so that little off-leash yappy dog became a memory I never forgot.
And that is why I fear moving--not that I own a dog or that I would move to a place where dogs are shot at will--but you never know what awaits you.
Culture.
Dogs in general aren't shot at will in places like this - the County is not a nasty hotbed of anti-dog speciesism. Dogs that are not under control and presenting a threat to livestock or humans are however often dealt with quite harshly. As they have a habit of injuring sheep, goats, chickens, deer, and other livestock that people rely upon for a living here.
Too many people from a difference culture ("City Folk") bring dear Fluffy out for a weekend in the country, and let the dog run wild. Doesn't go over well when Fluffy starts killing lambs. Not Fluffy's fault, that's a dog's nature. The owners are to blame.
And that is why I fear moving--not that I own a dog or that I would move to a place where dogs are shot at will--but you never know what awaits you.
As someone who used to do a fair amount of bike riding in all sorts of places I can tell you that the thing I most disliked about riding outside of dense urban areas was the inevitability of being chased by dogs. Back in my youth I would simply try to outrun them. Today if I were to take up distance biking again I'd likely carry mace in an always accessible location.
bae isn't talking about people randomly shooting dogs. He's talking about dogs whose owners are uncaring and irresponsible enough to allow them to threaten and harm other living creatures.
I'm reminded of a piece of advice I gave to a guy a while back. He was walking down a busy urban sidewalk when his german shepherd was startled by a little 2 to 3 year old kid coming up behind him. The dog (thankfully leashed) lunged at the kid. The kid's dad yelled at the dog guy, who then yelled back at the dad about how stupid his kid was. I asked the dog guy if he'd ever seen a story in a newspaper about a dog biting a kid, and pointed out that stories like that inevitably end with "and the aggressive dog had to be euthanized."
Culture.
Dogs in general aren't shot at will in places like this - the County is not a nasty hotbed of anti-dog speciesism. Dogs that are not under control and presenting a threat to livestock or humans are however often dealt with quite harshly. As they have a habit of injuring sheep, goats, chickens, deer, and other livestock that people rely upon for a living here.
Too many people from a difference culture ("City Folk") bring dear Fluffy out for a weekend in the country, and let the dog run wild. Doesn't go over well when Fluffy starts killing lambs. Not Fluffy's fault, that's a dog's nature. The owners are to blame.
I cannot tell you how many times I sewed up or had to dispatch damaged sheep attacked by "Fluffy". Tourists and their dogs!!! The dog I finally did shoot belonged to a local, a total a$$hole who grievously physically & sexually abused his family & let the dog run to tear up livestock. I actually wanted to shoot him, but the food at Purdy Women's Prison had a bad rep. Good thing too, because when he showed up to pick up the dog's carcass, I was totally enraged at him & still had the rifle in my hands. Had a pump repair man not been there working on the well, I may very well have been in prison to this day.
Sometimes people out here in the country just let their dogs run loose. Sometimes the bunnies like to hide under our shed. One morning I heard several dogs barking and went out and they had chewed a big area of the bottom of the shed out, trying to get to the rabbit. Sure glad my hens are in a fenced area.
A number of years ago, when I lived alone somewhere else in the country, I awoke to hearing sheep screaming across the road. A pack of dogs was attacking the neighbors sheep. I called the neighbor and he chased them off.
I guess they are apt to get violent when they meet up in larger numbers.
But don't worry.........I don't view ALL dogs the same, even when I see a violent one. That would be racist. :~)
Seriously though, it is sad to see owners not being responsible, 'cause the dog gets in trouble just doing what dogs do.
But don't worry.........I don't view ALL dogs the same, even when I see a violent one. That would be racist. :~)
lol.. good one, Cathy!
[QUOTE=Alan;147121 But, in my experience large segments of the population are obsessed with race and gender, especially white, mostly liberal, segments of the population... .
[/QUOTE]
:laff::laff::laff:
I love how you threw in this bit of 'humor' to underscore many posters points about generalizations and prejudices and profiling and such....uh, that WAS your intention, right?
structural hipsterism in Seattle society.
ROTFL!! I'd love a thread on the hipster-dog owner-entitlement-look-at-me-and-my-dog-child topic. Referencing my eye rolling of folks at the Farmer's Market taking up precious space with their huge animals who would rather be anywhere else--like a real dog park with water sources on a hot day. One day there was a woman there with 4 dogs on a leash---one wasn't enough I guess.
Sorry about the hijack. Just my rant of the day.
:laff::laff::laff:
I love how you threw in this bit of 'humor' to underscore many posters points about generalizations and prejudices and profiling and such....uh, that WAS your intention, right?Nope, simply an observation.
If you consider this forum a microcosm of society, review who brings race and gender into discussions.
Well, if you're white and male, race doesn't really matter. You're above all that. Literally.
I know quite a few white men who understand the dynamics of white privilege & their roles as gatekeepers, as well as the fact that all of us benefit when all of us are free. It's often the case that those at the top of the power heap are wilfully ignorant, which is what the Deen controversy reflects, among other things. She is both being scapegoated on behalf of a very racist country in denial, AND needs to answer for her abhorrent practices as an employer. It'll be interesting to see how it all plays out.
An illustration of how racism impacts people:
http://outfront.blogs.cnn.com/2013/07/01/levar-burton-i-show-my-hands-to-calm-cops/
iris lilies
7-2-13, 9:21pm
...It's often the case that those at the top of the power heap are wilfully ignorant...
Wilfully?
I think that's an arrogant interpretation in itself. Because someone doesn't see what you've identified as The Way And The Truth doesn't mean that they don't have a valid point of view. Herein lies the problem, the narrow interpretation of The Right Way to Think by progressives.
And we come full circle back to my neighborhood problem of those who like to lecture & scold, those who have a handle on The Way and need to proselytize. My example guy had to create a non-existant race problem in order to lecture us about it. But worse, he could have addresses the "willfulness." Usually that happens with blunt instruments to body parts, a time honored way to break "willfulness."
Wilfully?
I think that's an arrogant interpretation in itself. Because someone doesn't see what you've identified as The Way And The Truth doesn't mean that they don't have a valid point of view. Herein lies the problem, the narrow interpretation of The Right Way to Think by progressives.
And we come full circle back to my neighborhood problem of those who like to lecture & scold, those who have a handle on The Way and need to proselytize.
I'm sorry you consider my opinion arrogant. I certainly think one would have to wilfully ignore race inequities & the concomitant privileges that occur for us white folks to not see it.
Herein lies the problem, the narrow interpretation of The Right Way to Think by progressives.
Because, of course, conservatives have absolutely no history of or interest in discussing or legislating The Right Way to Think. :)
Well, if you're white and male, race doesn't really matter. You're above all that. Literally.The nature of bigotry is such that I think it is almost unfair to expect white males in our society to appreciate the context of the offense.
Almost.
But let's not lose sight of the difficulty. Short of being a member of a group (racial, religious, national origin, sexual orientation, etc.) at which a pattern of discrimination has been directed, there is simply too little access to that which would provide a substantive appreciation of the experience as a target of unfair discrimination, and, what's most insidious, the psychological instinct to avoid gaining such insights, no matter the depth of denial necessary to assure that.
I don't remember who it was, but I vaguely remember a white man, probably a politician, outlining his approach to this matter. He acknowledged that he could never truly come to appreciate the issue, so he operates from that assumption: That he will never have the means of directly accessing an understanding of the true nature and therefore must gain such insights second-hand from those who do. The analogy he gave was to childbirth, another thing for which he would never have the means of directly accessing an understanding of the true nature.
Deferring to the perspectives of those who actually experience something seems obvious, but it doesn't seem to be the default approach most folks in our society use, when regarding the impact of insidious wrongs like bigotry, when they themselves aren't the victims.
Well, if you're white and male, race doesn't really matter. You're above all that. Literally.
I understand what you're saying Jane, but there are a fair number of us that are white males to whom it does matter. And we're no happier about being judged as a group than anyone else. The pendulum of prejudice can swing both ways.
It's often the case that those at the top of the power heap are wilfully ignorant...
In my experience I don't think its as much individuals intentionally maintaining ignorance as it is plausible deniability practiced by society as a whole, including minorities. Our whole society is in denial of racial dynamics, not just the upper echelon.
At an individual level, having knowledge of an unfair (hate that word in these discussions) situation does not absolutely mandate taking action to correct it and doesn't necessarily make you evil if you don't take action. Understanding the bigger picture, however, will always give you an advantage and most people smart enough to get to the top are smart enough to realize that. There just isn't any reason that a privileged class (another sorry buzzword) would not want to understand how they became privileged. In short, its a lot harder to stay on top if you don't know how you got there.
I understand what you're saying Jane, but there are a fair number of us that are white males to whom it does matter. And we're no happier about being judged as a group than anyone else. The pendulum of prejudice can swing both ways.
...
Yes, of course you can care. But you don't have to. That's the difference.
Yes, of course you can care. But you don't have to. That's the difference.
Interesting idea Jane. Does anyone have to care? I don't know, kind of seems like the answer is no. I can certainly think of situations where it is beneficial to care, but rarely at the essential for survival level. Is that because that situation typically doesn't exist or because I'm part of one group and really can't fully understand the challenges of another group because I don't walk in their shoes, as it were? And is prejudice any less real if it affects you positively rather than negatively? The difference in impact on a person's live seems obvious enough, but isn't all prejudice detrimental in the end?
ApatheticNoMore
7-3-13, 12:16pm
At an individual level, having knowledge of an unfair (hate that word in these discussions) situation does not absolutely mandate taking action to correct it and doesn't necessarily make you evil if you don't take action.
if you have actual power to affect people's lives in meaningful ways, like hiring decisions, you should be careful about being fair (there's a legal incentive anyway). Someone in charge of parts of the criminal justice system also has that power. If like more people than not, you have pretty much NO power and it has little to do with the actual decisions you are able to make, then it's just another cause you should fight for, in a long list of causes one should be fighting for, which get ignored for the most part.
I mostly feel sorry for white males for getting the guilt trip, haha, it doesn't help the white males I know are super emotional, touchy feely types, whose own lives are a train wreck. I think of them and think success and domination and it's just a guilt trip, but there are definitely white males in this society who do have power.
Understanding the bigger picture, however, will always give you an advantage and most people smart enough to get to the top are smart enough to realize that. There just isn't any reason that a privileged class (another sorry buzzword) would not want to understand how they became privileged. In short, its a lot harder to stay on top if you don't know how you got there.
Well I think one would have a heck of a lot of ambiguity about even staying on top in that case (if the reason is keeping other races down). But sure everyone perceives threats. All jobs in your field being outsourced to cheap country. It's not that cheap country is less worthy in some universal human sense, it's not that it's more worthy in such a sense or even in a performance sense - it's usually just cheaper, end of story - but one can perceive a threat. Since the position of a poor minority in the ghetto is @#$#, noone is lining up to trade places. I also wouldn't want to trade places with a white person in Appalachia, decades upon decades of poverty, and now environmental poisoning. But they are privileged in some sense? Well no, they actually aren't, in any sense.
I don't think you can help prejudice, but you can help acting on it, or promoting it. The best way to understand how other people are impacted is to listen to them with your critical filter damped.
As far as "Most people smart enough to get to the top..." There may be some people at the top who are capable of empathy, but a large percentage are sociopaths for whom "winning is the only thing."
And as far as "It's a lot harder to stay on top if you don't know how you got there." Just consider Mitt Romney and Donald Trump--a little of Daddy's money and voila".
As far as "Most people smart enough to get to the top..." There may be some people at the top who are capable of empathy, but a large percentage are sociopaths for whom "winning is the only thing."
That simply isn't my experience. Because of where I used to live and what I did when we were there I had a chance to meet quite a few American Brahmans. Many were driven, type-A personality types, but none I can think of were even remotely sociopathic. Granted, I didn't always have a chance to get into deep philosophical discussions with them, but did get to see how they operate over extended periods of time. One common thread that surprises a lot of people was that most were pretty good listeners. You have to be a good negotiator to get to the top and listening is the most important skill in negotiating. Its also required to be empathetic. The "winning is the only thing" has a ring of urban myth as well. Smart/successful leaders typically have loyal followers. You can't get to the top alone and you simply don't breed loyalty by constantly stepping on people.
And as far as "It's a lot harder to stay on top if you don't know how you got there." Just consider Mitt Romney and Donald Trump--a little of Daddy's money and voila".
And how many great family fortunes have completely dissolved by the 2nd or 3rd generation? Its more common than you might think. Daddy's money can certainly give you a leg up in relation to others, but it is by no means a guarantee of success. Interesting examples, btw.
I don't think you can help prejudice, but you can help acting on it, or promoting it. The best way to understand how other people are impacted is to listen to them with your critical filter damped.
Agreed.
ApatheticNoMore
7-3-13, 2:06pm
And how many great family fortunes have completely dissolved by the 2nd or 3rd generation? Its more common than you might think. Daddy's money can certainly give you a leg up in relation to others, but it is by no means a guarantee of success. Interesting examples, btw.
It seems to me it would take a UNIQUE GIFT indeed to have a great family fortune and have the 2nd and 3rd generations receive nothing. I mean what would you have to do, spend it all on cocaine or something? If the entire fortune was invested in the family business I could see that going belly up I guess. But otherwise, money doesn't just evaporate that quickly, even with mediocre investment strategies, so that there's nothing left like that.
http://gawker.com/americans-every-race-but-mine-is-racist-especially-bl-659367815?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_facebook&utm_source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow
Another take on racism.
But otherwise, money doesn't just evaporate that quickly, ...
Well, yea, it can. How many Hollywood (http://www.vh1.com/celebrity/2013-03-13/34-celebrities-who-went-bankrupt/) hot shots have gone bankrupt? What about uber-salaried sports stars (http://xfinity.comcast.net/slideshow/sports-richestorags/2/)? Winners (http://http://www.businessinsider.com/10-lottery-winners-who-lost-it-all-2010-5?op=1) of mega million dollar lottery jackpots?
Tales of family fortunes getting squandered by heirs are every bit as common as those other stories. From one interesting WSJ article (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324662404578334663271139552.html),
"But if the past is any prelude, inheritors, especially those who are new to the family-windfall phenomenon, face an unpleasant reality: They're likely to blow it. Although it's not widely discussed, financial advisers say that new riches prove particularly hard to hold onto—and even harder to patiently nurture and grow. Indeed, research shows that family money rarely survives the transfer for long, with 70 percent evaporated by the end of the second generation. By the end of the third? Ninety percent. Hence the old saw, "Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations."
Most of us here have relatively average means. We tend to live fairly frugally and are able to enjoy a few indulgences without breaking the bank. That's a pretty nice way to live, but not the choice everyone makes. I bet most people on these boards think a million bucks is a lot of money. If that much cash dropped in the lap of most folks here I'm guessing they would probably seek out conservative investments for most of it then fix up the house a little bit, trade up to a newer car, pay off any debt or even their kids student loans and then maybe take a nice vacation for a treat.
More to the point, there probably aren't many people here that would use a million to charter a G-IV to take the whole family to a rented private island in the Bahamas complete with a catamaran to take everyone into Nassau at night for dinner and gambling. Not many of us would spring for a little Cristal with our OJ in the morning or an '82 Mouton with our Wagyu fillets at night. We probably wouldn't lay down a couple grand for RL purple label when Men's Warehouse seems to work just fine. But all of that and more is certainly luxurious and fun and I would think it could be pretty seductive. And just a week or two of living like that is all it would take blow a million. Even without the gambling.
iris lilies
7-4-13, 2:34pm
It seems to me it would take a UNIQUE GIFT indeed to have a great family fortune and have the 2nd and 3rd generations receive nothing. I mean what would you have to do, spend it all on cocaine or something? If the entire fortune was invested in the family business I could see that going belly up I guess. But otherwise, money doesn't just evaporate that quickly, even with mediocre investment strategies, so that there's nothing left like that.
bae used to post a chart that showed family fortunes that dissipated over time, usually gone by the 3rd generation. I don't know where that is out there in webland but it's there.
DH and I counted the number of millionaires in our immediately family, just parents and siblings. Now a million isn't that much these days but still is a fun figure to toss around. There are 4 households there out of 7. Farm land is UP right now with a crash inevitable.
I have not read most of the posts - so I am dropping in on the conversation.
I have only seen PD on a few talk shows, once on a very awkward guest appearance on Martha Stewart's old show. From what I understand she is a "self made" success - and I really admire people like her that have, worked their way up from the bottom and are "successful".
I have a hard time believing that she only used the "n" word once 30 years ago. With that said - and if she is telling the truth - this has been a huge witch hunt. I get so tired of corporations that are quick to drop someone who has been tried and convicted by the media.
Sheeezz give the poor woman a break. People can change - I know I have done and said some really stupid things over the years and when recognized - I have tried not to do/say them again. :|(
I think some corporations may me taking advantage of the situation to get out of some expensive endorsement contracts.
It almost makes we want to have some of her Southern fried chicken, corn on the cob and cobbler today...but I won't - I am mostly vegan.
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