View Full Version : How have you formed your opinions?
flowerseverywhere
7-2-13, 9:00am
After reading here for many years I got to thinking, how have we formed our opinions? I am amazed sometimes when I read some of the posts about subjects like political leaders (or lack of leadership), religious preferences, and the very polarizing issues like abortion, immigration or same sex marriage. I see definite patterns, and when you think of the whole picture of a persons gender, economic status, location in the country, or what we know of it, some things make sense.
I think it is rare for someone to change their opinion, but I do know certain post have led me to research things, like the constitution or history of abortion laws for example and my horizons have been broadened. We all are the sum of many experiences and exposures, but I find it interesting as I try to sort out why I so strongly believe in some things
Well, some of it is from parents for sure. Basically, if a thing my parents' believed made sense to me I kept it. But there were a few things that I didn't like and now I take more of an opposite approach. DH had a very different upbringing from me and he's taught me new things and widened my opinions about certain matters.
But what it always comes back to, is that I don't see black and white. I can see reason and justification for almost all actions. I refuse to condemn people, especially who are in situations that I can never fully understand. There's an overriding element to my opinions that it seems many other people don't have.
This might sound odd but I think my early years in Catholic school taught me the value of empathy. So before I judge someone for their beliefs (or when I ponder my own), I try to look at it from the other vantage before forming an "opinion". I have to admit though that sometimes I wonder ferociously why some people believe what they do and behave as they do. It doesn't make sense to my middle of the road, common sensical viewpoint.
I definitely have opinions, but I haven't "formed" them because these days I'd classify them as rather formless and subject to change at any time.. I say "I don't know" a lot. Because I read a lot of books on spirituality I think my kids find it odd that when they ask me questions about stuff like God or the afterlife I often say "I don't know."
The things I'm most sure about are really just "vibes" I try to listen to--akin to the Ignatian "consolations."
Certainly the basis for my opinions in the past have also been from upbringing, including Catholic school (like pinkytoe), and from the books I've gravitated to.
iris lilies
7-2-13, 10:24am
...
I think it is rare for someone to change their opinion, but I do know certain post have led me to research things, like the constitution or history of abortion laws for example and my horizons have been broadened. We all are the sum of many experiences and exposures, but I find it interesting as I try to sort out why I so strongly believe in some things
No, I think most of us have changed many opinions, on things small for sure, and perhaps even in the large picture.
I was pulling the Democratic lever for years until I lived for some years in an urban core where the Federal government was A Presence down the street with their huge, ugly, and abandoned public housing towers. The Feds worked against my neighborhood and there I learned many things including the local HUD officials. Hah, one of them just went to jail this month, come to think about it.
I can only speak of myself a 52 year old lady. I view many things far different then I did at 20, so for me my opinions did change over time. Not on every issue, some are still just as strong as they were back then example abortion. I can say mostly due to actual experiences of life, not from someone, some political view or religious view. My opinions are far from my folks who raised me in an all white middle class neighborhood. So far I seldom have mentioned my views on anything to them in years, not worth the discussion.
I would think we all change and roll with the flow that life leads us on. I have softened and also hardened due to events of life.
Opinions do change I believe. Life, and experience changes that.
I too went to a catholic school, but instead of it making me a better catholic, it made me more suspicious of it, and all religions, as I got older and realized they ALL peddle the same shtick, pretty much. Yet while they do that, they point at other religions to deride them and ridiculously claim these others to be wrong, or bad, or evil even as they say and do the same things but with a different god, or a different interpretation of the same god.
As i grew older, I began to notice things, and ask questions I wasn't supposed to. Like whenever someone was sick, a child say, and if they recovered it was attributed to prayers, but if they didn't recover, did they not pray enough? Were their parents not deserving enough? No one ever said that, but to my young mind, it was the unspoken implication. If 'praying' would save you, then failing to live/pass a test/get that whatever you wanted thing meant you didn't pray enough.
If you live, thank god,
if you die, it's god's will.
A pretty sweet gig for god, isn't it.
So how do they come to the conclusion that prayer works? Smoke and mirrors, that's all it is.
So, obviously I'm not a 'believer'. I don't need a religion to define me, or a religious belief to force me to be moral, or a god to bow and scrape to. And for most of my life I've been a live and let live person, as far as religion goes. Whatever gets you through life in one piece is good.
But I've changed my views on that as well. I see my country being taken over by a faction I can only call the american Taliban, because that is their direction and agenda. It is a force that is trying, and becoming frighteningly successful, at implementing public law that is written by and for their religious beliefs.
Restrictive abortion /women's rights
eliminate women's health care by de-funding Planned Parenthood, which is the ONLY preventative health care many low income women get, including birth control to reduce abortions.
Restricting clinics and doctors from even discussing abortion to RAPE victims (blaming the woman and making her pay for this crime)
Anti-sodomy laws http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/25/ken-cuccinelli-sodomy-supreme-court_n_3498444.html
Anti gay laws
Merry Christmas laws? Really? http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/texas-gov-rick-perry-signs-merry-christmas-bill-article-1.1373095 (a good Fox News Christian warrior) I know this one seems silly, and yes, it is, considering it's Rick Perry...but, it's Rick Perry, the Governor of Texas! And that IS the point!
And some state legislatures have floated the idea to criminalize miscarriage unless the woman can PROVE that she didn't cause it! no, they haven't been successful so far, but that fact that they have tried means they will again, and eventually BE successful.
OH, and let's not forget this little gem from the Ohio law. http://www.plunderbund.com/2013/06/26/budget-requires-ultrasound-before-birth-control/
I wonder how many women in that state realize that they now need an ultrasound (probably trans-vaginal) AND a 24 hour wait BEFORE they can even get birth control!
And why do I call them american Taliban? Because the agenda is the same. Control of population, and women in particular, with laws couched in their religion.
So, in a round about way I say my opinion has been formed by what I see actually happening. And it's not just stuff I read about in a fear mongering chain e-mail, or hear about on Fox, but real stuff that is actually happening. I know I'm harsh on conservatives/republicans/tea party on this forum, but this, in a nut shell, is a huge reason why.( I used to even vote republican)
This american Taliban has decided that the conservative/tea party is their ticket in. Why, well, that's another discussion, but there you are. Again, not speculation or guessing, or fear mongering, but the actual truth that anyone can SEE with their own eyes. And they use them to gain control of legislatures, instill their laws, and demonize their enemies. (it's not enough to have policy differences, but the opposition is anti-american, evil, immoral..which for the most part is democrat/liberal) They know that if you say something enough times, perhaps even have an entire network dedicated to saying the same lies over and over, people will begin to believe it.
They are anti education....Taliban
Anti women....Taliban
Anti gay...Taliban
Believe their god is the ONLY law....Taliban
And cheat and lie with impunity because THEY are right...Taliban.
Sorry, I'm sure this isn't the discussion you wanted. But you asked.
flowerseverywhere
7-2-13, 11:37am
No, I think most of us have changed many opinions, on things small for sure, and perhaps even in the large picture.
I didn't quite explain myself right. Many of my opinions have changed through the years, from experiences as you have described. My opinions have not changed from reading other people's views. For instance I became wry pro abortion when I was temp nurse and would fill in at the abortion clinic. Someone quoting me the bible or shaming me wont change my views as an example.
flowerseverywhere
7-2-13, 11:44am
Opinions do change I believe. Life, and experience changes that.
Sorry, I'm sure this isn't the discussion you wanted. But you asked.
Actually I find all of this fascinating. I am an ex catholic as well as I grew up in one of the famous sex abuse dioceses. After exploring many organized religions I realized i was an atheist at heart. It just didn't make sense to me otherwise..
goldensmom
7-2-13, 12:44pm
As a bible believing Christian, many of my opinions are filtered through scripture. Where scripture is silent on an issue, my opinions are based on my upbringing, experience and maturity. I agree with previous posters that opinions can change over one’s lifetime, for example, my father politically was a staunch republican in his younger years, active in the party at the state level but as he got older his views shifted toward the democratic party.
Yes, much of the Catholic made me cynical about religion too. I had turned away from it completely by my early teens. I too say "I don't know" a lot these day but something ain't right. I imagine, Peggy, that is only a matter of time, that US youth and others rise up against these unenlightened forces you mention. At least, I can hope. Change has always been held back by those who fear it until the tide becomes too strong.
I often wonder what makes the difference............Sometimes a person has parents with a certain set of beliefs (sometimes very dogmatic) and some children end up just like them, while others become the opposite.
I don't know what makes the difference.
I can say of my parents, they fit the saying "Everyone is good for something....even if its to set a horrible example". My father was a dogmatic "christian". He was cruel and abusive. My mother acted helpless and always had her head in the sand.
I am an atheist........probably because of my father. And I try to look at many angles to things and not just one. My parents trained me well for being a parent............I was intent on NEVER being like them! I think I've done a good job in that respect. I like to be open to new ideas about things. When I was an R.N., and someone pointed out something they thought I could have done differently.......I listened and sometimes even changed my behavior. Its a good quality to have.......to be open to criticism.........but I often wonder if it came from being yelled at so much. Maybe I became too concerned with other peoples' suggestions to me??
And I have to say.........my father's dogmatic approach to religion has sort of shown up in me, in the sense that when I really believe something, I'm like a dog with a bone.
I think being in my late teens and 20's during the time of the counter-culture helped me to form certain beliefs.
I used to believe in abortion until I had children, then I changed my mind.
I've always been sort of a hermit........a recluse........which I think came from being mistreated as a child. Who knows..........maybe I'm just that way genetically. I've tried to be social, but it just doesn't work....so that has never changed.
I like learning from other people. If they have certain qualities I admire, then I try to have them myself.
Its funny........sometimes I do a search for people who I was close to in college. They were people that had very similar beliefs as I did. But now they are in professions that I would NEVER have imagined. I feel like I've pretty much stayed the same all through life. I'm a bit more mellow now though.
"The unexamined life is not worth living." Plato.
Like all of us, my opinions, and more importantly, the way in which I form opinions, the meta-framework for how I think, was shaped by my family. I was raised by two intelligent, educated, sensible people who were also shaped by their upbringing. We each carry echoes of the generations of our families. My parents encouraged us to think for ourselves, for which I am very grateful. Consequently, we continue to challenge each other, and often disagree. A very healthy thing!
My opinions are undergirded by my inquiry into how I know what I know & think. I educate myself on topics I am impassioned about. I use varying opinions to challenge my own thinking. I love having family & friends with a wide range of political stances, and I appreciate getting into challenging conversations.
My personal values are also the core of my opinions. These too were learned from my family of origin: fairness, that all voices matter, that compassion & cooperation are the basis for making things work well. Being in relationship is paramount; is more important than being factually correct, a.k.a. "right". As I have grown into a mature adult, I've tested my core values along the way; by being belligerent, intolerant, foolish, bull-headed, mean, arrogant, domineering, disrespectful, irresponsible, "right", etc. In other words, by being fully human.
I love my examined life. Well, mostly! Some days I don't like who I see in the mirror, like all of us, but I do accept my humanness, my learning-curve flops, and the lovely awareness that my core is solid, and that everything is temporary. I have had to unbundle my learned fear; of domineering power, of change, of loss. I have had to challenge the racist & religious biases of my father, and the body self-hate of my mother, some of which live inside of me still, as I uproot them (a long & worthy process). I have many more years of uncovering & dropping my biases, prejudices, and assumptions, which is my ultimate life goal. Doing so is the basis for freedom, IMO.
Thanks for a great question!
PS~ best ever bumper sticker: Minds are like parachutes. They only function when open.
Yes, much of the Catholic made me cynical about religion too. I had turned away from it completely by my early teens. I too say "I don't know" a lot these day but something ain't right. I imagine, Peggy, that is only a matter of time, that US youth and others rise up against these unenlightened forces you mention. At least, I can hope. Change has always been held back by those who fear it until the tide becomes too strong.
So true!
I hope you are right about youth and others, that being us who 'fought the good fight' the first time around. Do we have the energy for this again? I don't know. People tend to look the other way when it isn't their skin in the game. But now it's our daughters and grand daughters. And we look at Ohio and Texas and wonder if our states are next. And how many of them will 'fall' before folks rise up?
We need to vote ALL republicans out. All of them (sorry Rob, but I'm beginning to believe there are no good ones left. The moderates have moved to the libertarian label)
Don't really want to inject politics into this most excellent discussion, but it IS only Republicans/conservatives/tea party that are pushing this agenda.
I often wonder what makes the difference............Sometimes a person has parents with a certain set of beliefs (sometimes very dogmatic) and some children end up just like them, while others become the opposite.
I don't know what makes the difference.
I can say of my parents, they fit the saying "Everyone is good for something....even if its to set a horrible example". My father was a dogmatic "christian". He was cruel and abusive. My mother acted helpless and always had her head in the sand.
I am an atheist........probably because of my father. And I try to look at many angles to things and not just one. My parents trained me well for being a parent............I was intent on NEVER being like them! I think I've done a good job in that respect. I like to be open to new ideas about things. When I was an R.N., and someone pointed out something they thought I could have done differently.......I listened and sometimes even changed my behavior. Its a good quality to have.......to be open to criticism.........but I often wonder if it came from being yelled at so much. Maybe I became too concerned with other peoples' suggestions to me??
And I have to say.........my father's dogmatic approach to religion has sort of shown up in me, in the sense that when I really believe something, I'm like a dog with a bone.
I think being in my late teens and 20's during the time of the counter-culture helped me to form certain beliefs.
I used to believe in abortion until I had children, then I changed my mind.
I've always been sort of a hermit........a recluse........which I think came from being mistreated as a child. Who knows..........maybe I'm just that way genetically. I've tried to be social, but it just doesn't work....so that has never changed.
I like learning from other people. If they have certain qualities I admire, then I try to have them myself.
Its funny........sometimes I do a search for people who I was close to in college. They were people that had very similar beliefs as I did. But now they are in professions that I would NEVER have imagined. I feel like I've pretty much stayed the same all through life. I'm a bit more mellow now though.
You know, it's funny, I always was for choice simply because I refused to have the State tell me what I could do with MY body, but it was AFTER I had kids that I became very strongly pro-choice.
Before I had kids, I would view them generally as fully human beings, as in there is the woman and there is the kid. Obviously I understood what pregnancy was and what the woman was carrying (without the benefit of a trans-vaginal ultrasound...imagine!)
But being pregnant for 9 months really drove home for me the parasitic nature of fetus. Yes, they are POTENTIAL humans, but they can not survive without the host body, that being me. You can not call a babysitter to watch the fetus while you relax by the pool, or enjoy a glass of wine. You can't decide to set it aside while you wear that really cute dress to the party. And you can't just take a pill when you get sick. And when you do get sick, with very serious, life threatening complications, you can't just say to your husband, 'here, you carry it for awhile'. It is a parasite, and I think every woman has the basic human right to choose as to whether they want to carry this parasite for 9 months or not.
WE don't force people to donate a kidney, or give a blood transfusion, even if that is the only way to save another human life. So what makes this so different?
Anyway, I just thought it interesting how, or when, we each found strong conviction on this subject.
As an aside, Both my kids were very much wanted and I consider them the best thing I ever did. But I know that is not true for everyone, and having been pregnant, I would never force anyone to go through that against their will.
I believe in evolution and every human's ability to have their opinions evolve through changing circumstances and life experiences. Hearing other people's opinions can sometimes have lasting effects on mine.
But being pregnant for 9 months really drove home for me the parasitic nature of fetus. Yes, they are POTENTIAL humans, but they can not survive without the host body, that being me. You can not call a babysitter to watch the fetus while you relax by the pool, or enjoy a glass of wine. You can't decide to set it aside while you wear that really cute dress to the party. And you can't just take a pill when you get sick. And when you do get sick, with very serious, life threatening complications, you can't just say to your husband, 'here, you carry it for awhile'. It is a parasite, and I think every woman has the basic human right to choose as to whether they want to carry this parasite for 9 months or not.
This is the sort of opinion that strengthens my resolve on a particular issue, reminding me that if I, and others like me, don't stand up and advocate for the other life involved, no one will.
Women have been getting abortions for centuries--if not longer--and we can make it safe, or we can make it risky. Rich women will always have the option to have safe, discreet abortions.
It's interesting to me that people who will vote to deny funding to any or all programs involving children are the loudest voices clamoring to save all the poor little embryos and fetuses. It has nothing to do with the fetuses, and everything to do with control.
Women have been getting abortions for centuries--if not longer--and we can make it safe, or we can make it risky. Rich women will always have the option to have safe, discreet abortions.
This is well-documented, and is the context for my stance that safe, legal abortion be affordably & readily available. I became pregnant at age 42, 6 months into the relationship with my now husband. A classic perimenopause pregnancy. When I miscarried at 9 weeks, I was deeply grateful, because we each knew we were unable to raise a Down's Syndrome child, and the intensity of the genetic testing had just begun for me. I knew I would terminate a pregnancy with genetic problems. And, when I considered termination, it felt really wrong to me, even though I knew it was the choice I would make.
THAT made me more deeply pro-choice than ever before, even when I was an abortion counselor in the 70's. I finally understood how very, very personal choosing to carry to term or terminate a pregnancy is. In the way that the felt body-experience is a direct knowing, much more so than an intellectual understanding, I know that it is wrong to compel a woman to carry to term OR to terminate, that she must freely make that decision herself. As with all medical decisions, who she chooses to consult with during her discernment process is her business, and hers alone.
There is something deeply sacred about being the body that is at stake, and I was that body, carrying that cell cluster called an embryo at the time of my miscarriage. Every year on my due date, June 22nd, I think about how my life would have been different to have welcomed another being into it. And every year, I am incredibly grateful for the miscarriage.
I imagine that these types of strong convictions exist for those who prefer abortion be made illegal. I have regard for the protect life stance, especially when it's congruent across the board; including anti-death penalty, anti-war, support for those in poverty, and support for those who carry to term & need unconditional, non-judgemental help raising their child.
I do always hope that unintended pregnancy prevention is the common ground for those on either side of the abortion debate. It truly seems to be the obvious meeting place. I have done my part, making sure my stepkids did not repeat the family pattern & become teen parents!
Gardenarian
7-2-13, 6:23pm
My basic values were of course formed by my parents, family members, and other close people in my life. I don't remember my parents ever making a statement one way or the other on abortion, gun laws, gay rights, or other hot topics. They were very liberal politically, though, and I became so too.
I think the main messages I picked up from them was that as an upper middle class WASP (does anyone use that term anymore?) I should thank my stars for my good fortune, and understand that most people were not so fortunate. "Noblesse oblige." Yeah, they were kind of snooty.
My parents were both strong atheists, but I was always agnostic, and have grown to become a believer (in my own peculiar way.)
Reason, and use of my senses.
Women have been getting abortions for centuries--if not longer--and we can make it safe, or we can make it risky. Rich women will always have the option to have safe, discreet abortions.
It's interesting to me that people who will vote to deny funding to any or all programs involving children are the loudest voices clamoring to save all the poor little embryos and fetuses. It has nothing to do with the fetuses, and everything to do with control.
Sadly true. It is only unborn life that is "sacred". Otherwise, the so-called pro-life state of Texas would not be executing their 501st prison inmate this month: http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/dr_scheduled_executions.html (do they sell programs? popcorn?)
I would not mind those who champion the unborn as much, if they weren't so hypocritical with their "every life is sacred" nonsense. It simply isn't at all true (to them), and it's sad that they don't have the courage to say as much.
But to flowers, I am equally fascinated by where I ended up and how I got here! My parents were bigoted, abusive, closed-minded and self-absorbed in all ways including sociopolitical. If it didn't benefit THEM, then to heck with it....the larger benefits to society or to the majority (let alone their children) were never considered. How I became this person, and in fact all of my siblings but one turned out similarly different, is surprising. I believe I've always had a strong inner compass, a logical mind and good sense. But where I picked it all up along the way is an interesting study. I certainly didn't get it from my family of origin.
I love my examined life. Well, mostly! Some days I don't like who I see in the mirror, like all of us, but I do accept my humanness, my learning-curve flops, and the lovely awareness that my core is solid, and that everything is temporary. I have had to unbundle my learned fear; of domineering power, of change, of loss. I have had to challenge the racist & religious biases of my father, and the body self-hate of my mother, some of which live inside of me still, as I uproot them (a long & worthy process). I have many more years of uncovering & dropping my biases, prejudices, and assumptions, which is my ultimate life goal. Doing so is the basis for freedom, IMO.
And can I state my opinion that this is one of the loveliest things I've read all day? {hugs}
I believe in evolution and every human's ability to have their opinions evolve through changing circumstances and life experiences. Hearing other people's opinions can sometimes have lasting effects on mine.
This is the sort of opinion that strengthens my resolve on a particular issue, reminding me that if I, and others like me, don't stand up and advocate for the other life involved, no one will.
So, you are in favor of forcing one human being being tethered, against their will, medically tethered to another 'human being', (actually a zygote undistinguished from a mouse or monkey) for 9 months? Really? I'm afraid you lose your 'liberty and freedom' banner you so often wave with this position. Or...maybe you meant freedom and liberty for men only?
Are you also in favor of forced organ donation? Blood transfusions? maybe you are in favor of forcing Christian Scientist to accept medical intervention, since a human life is clearly at stake. Wow! Pretty strong position from someone who doesn't even want to pay $3 or $4 dollars more in taxes to ensure everyone has adequate food and health care. Pretty strong opinion from someone who doesn't pass up a chance to deride government for 'intruding' into their lives/privacy.
*hint* government forcibly up my vagina IS intrusive! FYI
Hypocrites are so funny. ;)They tout the party line no matter how ridiculous or hypocritical it is. And they swallow everything Rush/Fox tells them and regurgitate it back without actually listening to what they are saying.
Liberty is good/let's intrusively regulate women....I should be able to buy a gun whenever, wherever/you must register two weeks ahead, show three forms of ID, wait 8 hours to vote....funny, funny...
gimmethesimplelife
7-2-13, 9:48pm
This thread has really made me think. I grew up in a very unstable situation with my father being a raging drunk and everything pretty much was about keeping him calm and keeping cash flow running to keep the utils on and some food on the table. There really was not room for thinking much, though I started questioning EVERTHING at a very young age. Around nine I could start seeing that society didn't really work for the segment of the population I was in, and as I got older, my experiences seemed to solidify that (and I could think this through more deeply). I wouldn't say I learned that much from my parents (unless it was how I don't want to be in life). From society I learned mostly negative things but I also learned that wonderful ability those who live on the outside sometimes have - to think outside the box and to have little faith in anything - to me that is priceless. I cherish this to this day. Something that taught me so much when I was young was when I was 20, my mother's family in Austria paid for me to go fly over and visit them. I could see that everyday people there were markedly better off than in the US - at least for the working classes. I also had the chance to go visit Hungary when it was still a communist country, and I was amazed to see many cars (though in one of three colors and by one or two manafacturers) and the people well fed and decently dressed. This was in Budapest in 1987. I was so disillusioned by this, as it went against so much of what I was taught regarding communism - once I saw this, from that point onward it has been hard to buy into much of anything society says. I kind of had a heart to heart with myself in my early 20's about how do I want to be and what do I believe? I can't say I stick to what I came up with 100% of the time, but I do what I can. I make an effort to be kind and gentle and show some decency when I can, and to not expect much out of life in general. On the other hand it's a fine balance as I have learned to develop a spine and will stand up for myself when necc with anybody. These are qualities I have developed as I find then desireable.
What an interesting topic! Rob
So, you are in favor of forcing one human being being tethered, against their will, medically tethered to another 'human being', (actually a zygote undistinguished from a mouse or monkey) for 9 months? Really? I'm afraid you lose your 'liberty and freedom' banner you so often wave with this position. Or...maybe you meant freedom and liberty for men only?
Are you also in favor of forced organ donation? Blood transfusions? maybe you are in favor of forcing Christian Scientist to accept medical intervention, since a human life is clearly at stake. Wow! Pretty strong position from someone who doesn't even want to pay $3 or $4 dollars more in taxes to ensure everyone has adequate food and health care. Pretty strong opinion from someone who doesn't pass up a chance to deride government for 'intruding' into their lives/privacy.
*hint* government forcibly up my vagina IS intrusive! FYI
Hypocrites are so funny. ;)They tout the party line no matter how ridiculous or hypocritical it is. And they swallow everything Rush/Fox tells them and regurgitate it back without actually listening to what they are saying.
Liberty is good/let's intrusively regulate women....I should be able to buy a gun whenever, wherever/you must register two weeks ahead, show three forms of ID, wait 8 hours to vote....funny, funny...
I'm not in favor of forcing anyone to do anything. As a matter of fact, if you get pregnant I can assure you I had nothing to do with it (vasectomy nearly 30 years ago). But, once you've created another human, I believe you're responsible for it's life and liberty, not the government, but you. The only way I could lose my "liberty and freedom" banner would be if I favored denying it to your offspring, which I don't.
flowerseverywhere
7-3-13, 7:29am
I believe in evolution and every human's ability to have their opinions evolve through changing circumstances and life experiences. Hearing other people's opinions can sometimes have lasting effects .
I think your life experiences have been so different from mine, and I think some of the problems we see in the us come from vastly different experiences. As I posted before, being raised by the state (foster care), being of mixed race, starting out at 18 with nothing, and having the experience of pregnancy and birth has shaped my opinions. When I worked filling in at the abortion clinic, I gained so much insight into the world of abortions. In my years of working with mentally Ill I saw so many people who did not have the capacity to be good parents. There are many babies who spend their first days detoxing from the drugs their mothers took, and many who have lifelong problems from mothers not taking care during their pregnancy to engage in good health habits.
In an ideal world, we would all be responsible, everyone would have good worth ethic, there would be no need for social programs and every child would be wanted and loved. And no one would commit crimes that put them on death row. No one would lie, no one would take advantage of anyone else, no one would be an addict and no child would be sexually, physically or mentally abused. But a world or society like that has never existed so my opinions have been formed based on the reality I have seen and lived. Life is hard and unkind to most people and so many just don"t have the intelligence or wherewithal to get out of their situation.
I'm not in favor of forcing anyone to do anything. As a matter of fact, if you get pregnant I can assure you I had nothing to do with it (vasectomy nearly 30 years ago). But, once you've created another human, I believe you're responsible for it's life and liberty, not the government, but you. The only way I could lose my "liberty and freedom" banner would be if I favored denying it to your offspring, which I don't.
Ah, I see. It's because I am the creator, is that it? Well, number one, it isn't an offspring until it 'springs off'. If it is incapable of independent life, it is a parasite of sorts. Number two, why does this collection of cells, this parasitic life that must live in the host body have rights that trump the host? Are you saying it is more important than the woman? Are they of equal importance? Do they have equal rights? Who is the master and who is the slave? In a stand your ground scenario, who is right? The unarmed black kid or the cop wanna-be with the gun?
And number three, if your god can demand stoning for a man who wears a cloth from two threads, then I as 'god/creator' can do the same for 'someone' who would enslave me for 9 months. Is a master/slave scenario EVER ok in your freedom liberty world?
Just my thoughts/opinion. ;)
I'm stopping as I really didn't want to hijack this thread.
Ah, I see. It's because I am the creator, is that it? Well, number one, it isn't an offspring until it 'springs off'. If it is incapable of independent life, it is a parasite of sorts. Number two, why does this collection of cells, this parasitic life that must live in the host body have rights that trump the host? Are you saying it is more important than the woman? Are they of equal importance? Do they have equal rights? Who is the master and who is the slave? In a stand your ground scenario, who is right? The unarmed black kid or the cop wanna-be with the gun?
And number three, if your god can demand stoning for a man who wears a cloth from two threads, then I as 'god/creator' can do the same for 'someone' who would enslave me for 9 months. Is a master/slave scenario EVER ok in your freedom liberty world?
Just my thoughts/opinion. ;)
I'm stopping as I really didn't want to hijack this thread.
I don't know if you've ever read Mark Twain's unfinished last book, published in various versions after his death, one being "The Mysterious Stranger" and another being "The Chronicle of Young Satan", wherein a teenage boy is revealed to be an angel in disguise living among humans. One of the books themes dealt with an angel's inability to do wrong, since being an angel, whatever he did was incapable of being wrong. Young Satan (not the Satan, but rather his nephew) once amused himself by creating a village of miniature (ant sized) humans and watching them go about their business. Afterwards, he squashed them under his boot and walked away.
Sometimes the abortion debate reminds me of that.
Most of my opinions have been shaped by relationships and environmental factors/outside influences. While some hold fast for many years, most of my opinions are in a constant state of evolution. The world is constantly changing so it seems logical that, if I'm paying attention, my opinions on many issues would as well.
This is a pretty fascinating group we have here. Cool discussion!
I don't know if you've ever read Mark Twain's unfinished last book, published in various versions after his death, one being "The Mysterious Stranger" and another being "The Chronicle of Young Satan", wherein a teenage boy is revealed to be an angel in disguise living among humans. One of the books themes dealt with an angel's inability to do wrong, since being an angel, whatever he did was incapable of being wrong. Young Satan (not the Satan, but rather his nephew) once amused himself by creating a village of miniature (ant sized) humans and watching them go about their business. Afterwards, he squashed them under his boot and walked away.
Sometimes the abortion debate reminds me of that.
Wow. That's really stretching for an analogy. That all the ant-sized humans were able to "go about their business" as autonomous creatures makes all the difference.
Wow. That's really stretching for an analogy.
You think so? I thought it tied in very well with the previous comment about women being a 'creator' and the prevailing theme that life is only life if I say so.
Also, a morality play in 3 acts can be enlightening, even if it doesn't match exigent conditions to every observers satisfaction.
Here is a heartfelt essay about women's right to choose an abortion, from a Dad.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/03/rob-delaney-access-safe-legal-abortion
I form my opinions by watching Peggy & Alan duke it out, and then whoever is left standing must surely be right . . . :)
I form my opinions by watching Peggy & Alan duke it out, and then whoever is left standing must surely be right . . . :)
Peggy's my buddy. She puts the sting in interesting. ;)
Like most, my opinions were and are formed by a combination of my upbringing and my life experiences as a middle-aged middle-class female in the U.S. I also read quite a lot of non-fiction, and have for years, on various topics. I marvel at those who read nothing more than the sports page, or only fiction, and then have adamant opinions on politics, the environment, immigration, the U.S. budget, gays raising children, foreign policy, on and on - without any knowledge to back it up. Nor do they want to bother reading any data if it conflicts with their opinion.
In a democracy an uninformed opinion is worse than no opinion.
I thought about adding more to my original post on why my opinions are as they are. This post has had me thinking about a few of them that are biggies to me. I then summed it up by thinking that we are lucky to live in an era, a country where we are allowed to have opinions and choices.
Peggy's my buddy. She puts the sting in interesting. ;)
You tell 'em Alan!;)
I thought about adding more to my original post on why my opinions are as they are. This post has had me thinking about a few of them that are biggies to me. I then summed it up by thinking that we are lucky to live in an era, a country where we are allowed to have opinions and choices.
Word.
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