View Full Version : When is it acceptable for the government to spy on its own citizens?
Rather than continue to hijack the thread about the Republican party I am starting a new thread to get people's thoughts on the NSA's PRISM program of collecting and storing vast quantities of metadata about American citizens communications to other Americans within the United States. I think my thoughts can be summed up as follows: Collecting and storing masses of private communications information about Americans who are not under suspicion of wrongdoing should not be an acceptable tool, secret or otherwise, for the government of a free people to do.
Regardless of the legality or illegality of it (certainly a large enough topic for a separate thread) do people think
1) this will/is actually make/making Americans safer,
2) can the government, or individuals with access to the info, be trusted not to use the gathered information for purposes other than keeping Americans safe from terrorist or other foreign threats,
3) considering that James Clapper, the Director of National Intelligence, outright lied to the Senate Intelligence Committee regarding the scope of the program, thus eliminating any pretense of someone outside the NSA having oversight of the program, can we really expect that the program will not expand to the point that the NSA will be collecting and reviewing actual communications before long (if it isn't already doing so.)
4) is there a way to revise this program to make it effective for the purpose of protecting the US from foreign attacks yet still provide American citizens an acceptable level of privacy in their private communications?
iris lilies
7-6-13, 9:00pm
No, it's not acceptable, generally speaking. Specifics might mitigate that. No the small minded bureaucrats cannot be trusted.
I'd like to mimic all of those illegal immigrants who are successfully hiding from the gubermnet and get away from data collection on my phone calls. Wonder how I do that.
Any ideas? Anyone?
Sure, IL. Work in physically grueling, grievously underpaid jobs for abusive employers, live in substandard housing with extended family, drive illegally, use only cash for everything, don't get sick, pray that your children don't get sick, especially anything requiring hospitalization, and don't call the police when you're the victim of a crime. Worry all the time, that you'll never have enough, that you'll be sent back to face death squads or starvation. Tolerate racist abuse in silence, from ignorant electeds & other people who think you have it easy.
iris lilies
7-6-13, 9:57pm
Sure, IL. Work in phsically grueling, grievously underpaid jobs for abusive employers, live in substandard housing with extended family, drive illegally, use only cash for everything, don't get sick, pray that your children don't get sick, especially anything requiring hospitalization, and don't call the police when you're the victim of a crime. Worry all the time, that you'll never have enough, that you'll be sent back to face death squads or starvation. Tolerate racist abuse in silence, from ignorant electeds & other people who think you have it easy.
aw, gee, guess I'd rather have my phone records collected.
Any ideas? Anyone?
Use a burn phone. Be a bit clever about how you buy and activate it. And clever about when and how you use it.
aw, gee, guess I'd rather have my phone records collected.
Exactly. Me too... Truthfully, I would love it if the Government would listen to me! I know precisely what needs to happen, and if they'd only listen... ;)
ApatheticNoMore
7-7-13, 1:04am
1) this will/is actually make/making Americans safer,
frankly even if a real terrorist threat appeared, I think they'd have trouble locating it in all the stuff they are collecting. In other words they probably wouldn't pick it up EVEN with a terrorist that wasn't very careful about being tracked. They were straight out handled info about the Boston bombers and they didn't catch that.
2) can the government, or individuals with access to the info, be trusted not to use the gathered information for purposes other than keeping Americans safe from terrorist or other foreign threats,
No way. The ways it can be used: 1) economic enrichment. This isn't even scary and sinister, this is just plain old corruption. Congress already makes gains that can't be explained other than insider trading. 2) Blackmail (of politicians etc. - just find a sex scandal etc.) 3) to disable dissent. History says no, the government, even this U.S. government. can not be trusted to use the information only to keep people safe from terrorists and similar threats.
3) considering that James Clapper, the Director of National Intelligence, outright lied to the Senate Intelligence Committee regarding the scope of the program, thus eliminating any pretense of someone outside the NSA having oversight of the program, can we really expect that the program will not expand to the point that the NSA will be collecting and reviewing actual communications before long (if it isn't already doing so.)
I suspect it is. Some say it's simple math, the NSA budget, the cost of hardware. They can collect enough to store the whole internet. What is read either by humans or machines is a separate question than what is stored, but I'm pretty sure it's not just metadata that's read. Even though metadata is enough to be plenty incriminating itself. What if you want to disturb a political protest, think of what metadata gets you. What's that Utah data center for anyway? Just metadata?
4) is there a way to revise this program to make it effective for the purpose of protecting the US from foreign attacks yet still provide American citizens an acceptable level of privacy in their private communications?
It wouldn't be that program if it was revised. You could spy on a select number of people when you have suspicions. See that sounds nothing like the NSA program and very much like getting a warrant or something. Even the rubber-stamping FISA court is not *this* program.
I'd bet there are people reading this literally scared of answering this thread because of the NSA. Well since they aren't rounding up people complaining about politics on the internet yet (it would take a large prison indeed), I don't mind, but I'm sure some people out there in internet land have gone quiet (not anyone in particular). It's a profound intimidation, it's naked fear writ large. The end result of this intimidation is the attempted murder of hope in my view (for democracy, for improvement via politics, for a better world - so the NSA spys on protests and political movements right?). But it may not be so easily murdered.
I don't think it is at all acceptable for our government to engage in tracking all of our communications. If we're concerned about civil liberties, we must resist this type of intrusion into our rights of due process, freedom from unreasonable search & seizure and to be secure in our papers and effects. A totalitarian police state never just appears overnight, it grows slowly & deliberately, one intrusion at a time, and masks itself under the guise of our best interests.
rodeosweetheart
7-7-13, 11:47am
It is completely unacceptable, and if citizens do not stand up for our rights, we will lose them.
gimmethesimplelife
7-8-13, 12:50am
Gotta say that I am less than pleased with the Obama administration after all these recent scandals have been revealed. These actions have taken place on Obama's watch so I can see no way of passing it off on Bush.....it's been far too long for that to work. I don't know what to make of the government monitoring our email and phone calls and internet searches, and now I understand that all mail in the United States is photographed too. Which brings me to a creepy story if you will. A few years ago one of my mother's friends in Austria sent my mother a Christmas Card from Vienna. It had the stamp of the American Embassy in Moscow on it and it had apparently been diverted there and it did not arrive in Phoenix until March the following year. Creepy, very creepy, why was that Christmas Card diverted to the American Embassy in Moscow? Bizarre.
I don't want to be paranoid but under these conditions it is hard to not be slightly anxious. It makes one wonder what is going on that has not yet been brought to light. And the United States sure looks less wonderful to the world at large now - how our image can ever be restored I really don't know at this point. My question is - why is the government doing this? Surely they must have known at some point, human nature being what it is, that information would be leaked? Very creepy. Rob
Gotta say that I am less than pleased with the Obama administration after all these recent scandals have been revealed.
Rob
Well first of all, what scandals? Are you talking about all the made-up-pulled-from-their-butts scandals the republicans/right have tried desperately to pin on President Obama and his administration?
IRS...bogus, totally made up faux outrage on the right. It has come to light that Darrel Issa actually tried to SUPPRESS information that would show him to be the nasty circus clown he is. So, no scandal there unless you actually see the lying, cheating Issa as THE scandal.
Bengazi....again, totally fabricated 'scandal'. Here's a clue. Michelle Backmann was a spokesperson for that 'scandal'. That's really all you need to know to make a judgement. Again, the only SCANDAL is that the democrats/liberals don't relentlessly show what lying, cheating a**clowns these people really are!
So, no scandals.....yeah..surprise...shock....really....>8)
The NSA thing. Well, there is something there, but there was something there way back when BUSH started it, and no one seemed too alarmed about it then. I'm still not decided about that yet. I'm smart enough to know that on day one the President is told things that would make the rest of us sit in the corner drooling and mumbling to ourselves. And I'm also not so arrogant as to think I personally need to know this stuff. The fact that we have always spied on each other, in this country and out, all through history, and every congress, makes me pause. And you bet all the other countries are spying on their people as well as on us. All the faux outrage is for show. They are just enjoying that we got caught.
The thing is, folks need to stop and just think about stuff before they get all spun up. We need to put our critical thinking skills to work when we hear something, or read something on the internet. The government really isn't listening to our phone calls, unless you, or someone you are talking to has been identified as worthy of listening to. There simply isn't enough people, or hours in a day/week/month/year to listening to all the calls, read all the e-mails/tweets/texts whatever. It's just impossible logistically. And ask yourself, if they really were listening to all our calls, or reading all our mail, wouldn't they have found/caught these bad guys before they did their bad thing? How effective is their spying, really, if they didn't even know that that fellow, Snowdon, right under their own roof, was a mole. Why don't they know about these gun nuts who plan to shoot up schools/theaters, where ever, BEFORE they do it? After the fact we see web sites and e-mails and all sorts of evidence on line that they were planning something. So with all this 'phone listening and e-mail reading' why did it happen? These horrible things happened because, as it turns out, our government isn't listening to us, or watching us, or spying on US. Drones aren't targeting us in Starbucks and no I don't think they are actually photographing all our mail. Why? Why would they do that? What purpose would it serve? Again, it's the logistics thing. They have more important things to do than waste thousands and thousands of man hours photographing our Christmas cards. And your mom's card was probably just misdirected. It happens. here and abroad.
Does stuff go on? Sure it does, and I would be the last one to say just ignore the government completely without oversight. But just like a magicians show, if we let ourselves be spun up and diverted by all this faux scandal and slight of (political) hand, then we just might miss the really important bits. The bits we DO need to be concerned about and watch.
The NSA thing. Well, there is something there, but there was something there way back when BUSH started it...
Mr. Obama is now in his second term as President. I'm curious as to when we should expect him to start taking ownership of policy? It seems like there's been enough time to make changes if the policies of the previous administration(s) were in opposition to his own.
ApatheticNoMore
7-8-13, 10:34am
It's larger than Obama, it is perhaps security state policy as such. Yea I know one may think they live in a country where changing Presidents could change that, but do they really? But if Obama had been the civil liberties champion some briefly (with very little evidence) imagined him to be? I don't know, he's obviously not. If the president was more powerful than the snoops, but the snoops spied on (vetted?) Obama since 2004 (the Tice leak reveal he was spyed on).
Odd of the 3 scandals that preceded the spying scandal the one that seems to get forgotten about is the one with the most merit. The AP scandal, intimidation of the press.
And you bet all the other countries are spying on their people as well as on us. All the faux outrage is for show. They are just enjoying that we got caught.
Oh, I don't know about Latin America. That outrage may be real. It's backed with resources but I'm not sure that's enough at this point. Sadly I'm sure they suspect they need to back it with nukes - until the whole world is a giant nuclear stockpile. See there's this country that only understands "might makes right" to such an extent that they detain President's of other countries in flight - such a madman it seems can't be reasoned with and only understands raw military power :(
The government really isn't listening to our phone calls, unless you, or someone you are talking to has been identified as worthy of listening to. There simply isn't enough people, or hours in a day/week/month/year to listening to all the calls, read all the e-mails/tweets/texts whatever. It's just impossible logistically.
On what basis is one is identified as being worthy to be listened to? Uh it's secret. That's what is meant by unaccountable. But as for listening to *everyone* the issue of course is automation, if there is enough computer storage and processing capability to read through everything ... and artificial intelligence (the Artificial Intelligence Agency or AIA - ok I made that acronym up for my amusement - but you know that AI is what will be brought to bear). The issue is what technologies exist, that is what is logically and logistically possible .... and inevitable?
and no I don't think they are actually photographing all our mail.
you're questioning the validity of a report in the New York times? Look they get stuff wrong ("intelligence" leading up the Iraqi war notably), but that's quite a challenge there, it's not Alex Jone's reporting you're questioning here.
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/monitoring-of-snail-mail.html?_r=1&
Why? Why would they do that? What purpose would it serve? Again, it's the logistics thing. They have more important things to do than waste thousands and thousands of man hours photographing our Christmas cards.
and in an alternate universe in which computing was never invented - I see a whole genre here, kinda like steampunk ... and I kinda like it :) But in this universe that actually is, it's all automated, yea automation takes *some* man hours, but not near so many.
Mr. Obama is now in his second term as President. I'm curious as to when we should expect him to start taking ownership of policy? It seems like there's been enough time to make changes if the policies of the previous administration(s) were in opposition to his own.
I expect this is his policy. Not that it would have been better if his opponents won. The problem here is everyone is rooting for the Yankees or the Red Sox but no matter which team you pick you never stop playing baseball.
I think is nothing at all acceptable that a Government spies their citizens in the internet. I mean they watch all, even this forum. What is the use of that? Are we all suspicious to be terrorist? I mean for me the most shocking thing is that people get paid, and I think that not bad, by just spy every area of the internet. that is crazy...
This whole case remains me on the GDR, where all citizens were watched.
For me that just shows that the Government is not trusting their own citizens. But in the other hand they give guns to everyone.... sorry....
That makes no sense for me .
no I don't think they are actually photographing all our mail. Why? Why would they do that? What purpose would it serve? Again, it's the logistics thing.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2337973/Ricin-mailing-suspect-caught-Big-Brothers-eye-mail--track-too.html
Well, yeah, apparently they are. As Gregg has pointed out, automation makes it easy, and cheap digital storage makes it affordable.
ApatheticNoMore
7-8-13, 11:18am
I mean for me the most shocking thing is that people get paid, and I think that not bad, by just spy every area of the internet. that is crazy...
oh that's a real problem, and I suspect there's a lot more money floating around there than Snowden's salary (yea it's a nice wage, but nothing particularly spectacular). Security is making millionaires.
Thomas Drake (the whistleblower who went through all the proper channels):
"The national security state became a growth industry — huge redistribution of wealth. I had people coming to me: “Tom, you have to get out. The money is unbelievable. You can be a millionaire.”
http://www.salon.com/2012/03/07/nsa_whistle_blower_obama_worse_than_bush/
Now the corporatist corruption that this is should be obvious. But also financial power is directly flowing to spying power so that those people have power in all forms in this society (and money power is a huge power - yea as is spying power). So they have social power in the marketplace, in their local community, nationally, etc.. And think of the world that creates .... Are these the people you WANT to rule your society? Because power-money (one word :)) flows to them in all directions.
Well first of all, what scandals? ....
IRS...bogus, totally made up faux outrage on the right. ......
Bengazi....again, totally fabricated 'scandal'.......
The NSA thing. Well, there is something there, but there was something there way back when BUSH started it, and no one seemed too alarmed about it then. I'm still not decided about that yet. I'm smart enough to know that on day one the President is told things that would make the rest of us sit in the corner drooling and mumbling to ourselves. And I'm also not so arrogant as to think I personally need to know this stuff.....
And ask yourself, if they really were listening to all our calls, or reading all our mail, wouldn't they have found/caught these bad guys before they did their bad thing?.....
As always Peggy, there's quite a lot there to respond to. I'll try to be brief.
The IRS thing is not bogus. They admitted to it and their own IG report validated it. One of the people at the center of it refused to testify before Congress and now is attempting to secure immunity from prosecution before being called to testify again. What's up with that?
Bengazi. I can't make up my mind about this one. At best it's incompetence and at worst it's a political coverup. It seems to me to be a little of both but I fear we'll never really know since enough of the citizenry seems to be in the Hillary Clinton "What difference does it make" camp. It seems to me that we shouldn't tolerate or defend either possibility.
The NSA thing. The one aspect you didn't mention, but seems terribly important to me, is that the government has decided to treat us all as criminals, collecting data to use against us later. As I mentioned earlier, their actions violate our rights to due process, the right to be secure in our persons/houses/papers & effects, as well as our right not to be subject to search & seizure without probable cause. Personally, I think that's a very big deal.
The "if they were really" thing. No, the fact that they are doing those things doesn't mean that everyone would be caught before they could do something bad. I believe you're right that not every conversation is listened to, or that every online correspondance or physical mail is read. They're just keeping a record of who you're talking to and corresponding with, the times & dates of that correspondance as well as your physical location, all to use against you later.
Does any of that sound right to you? To me, these things and many more validate my opinion that big government is the enemy of freedom and liberty. Of course, your mileage may vary.
As always Peggy, there's quite a lot there to respond to. I'll try to be brief.
The IRS thing is not bogus. They admitted to it and their own IG report validated it. One of the people at the center of it refused to testify before Congress and now is attempting to secure immunity from prosecution before being called to testify again. What's up with that?
Bengazi. I can't make up my mind about this one. At best it's incompetence and at worst it's a political coverup. It seems to me to be a little of both but I fear we'll never really know since enough of the citizenry seems to be in the Hillary Clinton "What difference does it make" camp. It seems to me that we shouldn't tolerate or defend either possibility.
The NSA thing. The one aspect you didn't mention, but seems terribly important to me, is that the government has decided to treat us all as criminals, collecting data to use against us later. As I mentioned earlier, their actions violate our rights to due process, the right to be secure in our persons/houses/papers & effects, as well as our right not to be subject to search & seizure without probable cause. Personally, I think that's a very big deal.
The "if they were really" thing. No, the fact that they are doing those things doesn't mean that everyone would be caught before they could do something bad. I believe you're right that not every conversation is listened to, or that every online correspondance or physical mail is read. They're just keeping a record of who you're talking to and corresponding with, the times & dates of that correspondance as well as your physical location, all to use against you later.
Does any of that sound right to you? To me, these things and many more validate my opinion that big government is the enemy of freedom and liberty. Of course, your mileage may vary.
As usual Alan, you try to distract and deflect, and condemn simply because YOU think there is SOMETHING there. Sorry, but you know the saying. "you are entitled to your opinion, but..." The facts just don't support them.
The IRS. Yeah, well, that happened! As it turns out, the REPUBLICAN operative who authorized this was also investigating liberal 'non profits' as much as conservative. In other words, doing his job. You do know that was his job, right? Unfortunately for Issa, Rep Cummings went ahead and released the full texts of the testimony. Issa was outraged. Outraged I tell you! Mainly because it showed how his cherry picking bits and pieces to build a totally bogus case was, well, dishonest, dispiciable, and totally MO for him and the right.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/26/1219172/-Here-s-how-Darrell-Issa-manufactured-the-IRS-scandal
so, quick, let's change the subject! Let's move on to the next totally made up scandal. Issa seems to think he can now simply deny he EVER accused the White house of wrong doing. Unfortunately for him, we got these inter-toobs and video and such.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2013/06/26/the-morning-plum-darrell-issa-backtracks-on-irs-scandal/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2013/06/05/shameful-conduct-from-issa-on-the-irs/
And the woman who takes the 5th? Really Alan, in light of Issa's dishonesty and which hunting, do you really blame her? Of course you do cause...you think there's SOMETHING there....
Well here's something. About Issa.
http://www.politicususa.com/2013/05/16/darrell-issas-lies-create-uncomfortable-scrutiny-criminal-background.html
People who live in glass houses, and all...
How is Benghazi a political cover-up? A political outpost of ours, in a very unstable and dangerous part of the world was attacked. Some people lost their lives. Sad, yes, surprising, no. It's a very dangerous world, and we are in some extremely dicey places. You know, we were attacked, on our own soil, and thousands died, yet no one blamed Bush (and by no one I mean anyone not wearing a tin foil hat), the country actually rallied around him, and I don't believe we had as many hearings on that than Benghazi. the only difference is it's a democratic President and nasty republicans are positively desperate to pin something, anything on him! And shameful tea party/right are absolutely gleeful to use the tragic deaths of our people to gain political points. For shame!
The NSA thing..how, exactly are they going to 'use this data' against us? How? Give me a realistic example of their evil use of my phone number calling my sister's phone number last night. Now, if my sister goes on to blow up something, then, yeah, they will make that connection, and RIGHTFULLY SO. But I want you to tell me how they are going to use my phone numbers records against me? How?
And, to be honest Alan, I'm calling BS on the faux outrage of 'government intrusion, search and seizure without probable cause and due process' shtick you are playing. Anyone who thinks the State has the right to tell women to 'fall back and spread 'em' against their will has lost any credibility in the 'outraged at the lost of my personal freedom' argument. I think you need a new definition for tyranny!
Again, how are they going to use these phone records against us?
Thankfully my mileage does vary.;)
FWIW, it does not surprise me that the consulate in Bengazi was attacked. As you said peggy, its an unstable and dangerous part of the world. The little voice that won't go away realizes that, its the part about guards being pulled from posts and intelligence regarding the possibility of attacks being either suppressed or ignored that keeps the questions alive.
FWIW, it does not surprise me that the consulate in Bengazi was attacked. As you said peggy, its an unstable and dangerous part of the world. The little voice that won't go away realizes that, its the part about guards being pulled from posts and intelligence regarding the possibility of attacks being either suppressed or ignored that keeps the questions alive.
A lot of little voices, and a fair amount of circumstantial evidence would indicate that the consulate was attacked with weapons that we provided them and that the ambassador was in the process of trying to retrieve them. How would that have looked just a few months prior to the election?
A lot of little voices, and a fair amount of circumstantial evidence would indicate that the consulate was attacked with weapons that we provided them and that the ambassador was in the process of trying to retrieve them. How would that have looked just a few months prior to the election?
Little voices, lots of rumors, no data. Embassies get attacked all the time. Why the drama over this one? Divisive politics.
The NSA thing..how, exactly are they going to 'use this data' against us? How? Give me a realistic example of their evil use of my phone number calling my sister's phone number last night. Now, if my sister goes on to blow up something, then, yeah, they will make that connection, and RIGHTFULLY SO. But I want you to tell me how they are going to use my phone numbers records against me? How?
The first thing that pops into my head is that they're likely using it to track/monitor protestors such as the Occupy protest movement. I'd be willing to bet my last dollar that anyone who has contact with anyone who has been involved in those protests has likely had their communications 'assessed' by the NSA. Does that make us safer? Absolutely not. Does it potentially stifle the likelihood of an "American Spring" movement from gaining steam? Absolutely.
ApatheticNoMore
7-8-13, 8:33pm
I'd be willing to bet my last dollar that anyone who has contact with anyone who has been involved in those protests has likely had their communications 'assessed' by the NSA.
that would be me :). But actually I only know people peripherially involved (noone with a tent iow), but who knows how wide the net of the crazed security state is (it gathers everything, who knows how many get special scrutiny).
Occupy was investigated as suspected criminals and/or terrorists and surveiled heavily (this is just history and recent history to boot - it's not speculation).
I fear what you fear, among other things.
Little voices, lots of rumors, no data. Embassies get attacked all the time. Why the drama over this one? Divisive politics.
Little voices: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/06/world/africa/weapons-sent-to-libyan-rebels-with-us-approval-fell-into-islamist-hands.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
The Obama administration secretly gave its blessing to arms shipments to Libyan rebels from Qatar (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/qatar/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) last year, but American officials later grew alarmed as evidence grew that Qatar was turning some of the weapons over to Islamic militants, according to United States officials and foreign diplomats.
No evidence has emerged linking the weapons provided by the Qataris during the uprising against Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi to the attack that killed four Americans at the United States diplomatic compound in Benghazi, Libya (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/libya/index.html?inline=nyt-geo), in September.
But in the months before, the Obama administration clearly was worried about the consequences of its hidden hand in helping arm Libyan militants, concerns that have not previously been reported. The weapons and money from Qatar strengthened militant groups in Libya, allowing them to become a destabilizing force since the fall of the Qaddafi government.
The facts do point to divisive politics during an election year, but let's just stick with the video story...better all around.
ApatheticNoMore
7-8-13, 10:37pm
Isn't it understood that the U.S. arms extremist groups in Syria as part of arming that resistance - ok I'll say it outright the U.S. arms Muslim extremist groups in Syria - ok some of them are almost certainly even Al Qaeda. So the scandal is that this happened in Libya too?
It does relate, if Al Qaeda is such a horrible threat that we are to have no privacy (because yea privacy was nice but terrorists!) why does the U.S. government arm terrorists groups? Nah if ANY real threat exists AT ALL, it's definitely not Al Qaeda.
ApatheticNoMore, it's all very much like the Spy vs. Spy segment of Mad magazine oh so many years ago. We arm the "good guys", which was translated as "whoever is against the soviets". Now the translation isn't so clear, but the purpose is the same. Our government arms and helps whoever they think will be most useful to the US gov't's short-term interests. It's why there are pictures of Saddam Hussein with Darth Cheney looking all best-friendy from just a few years before he and Bush were elected.
gimmethesimplelife
7-9-13, 7:19am
The first thing that pops into my head is that they're likely using it to track/monitor protestors such as the Occupy protest movement. I'd be willing to bet my last dollar that anyone who has contact with anyone who has been involved in those protests has likely had their communications 'assessed' by the NSA. Does that make us safer? Absolutely not. Does it potentially stifle the likelihood of an "American Spring" movement from gaining steam? Absolutely.I find it chilling and depressing that the main reason I didn't get more involved with Occupy Phoenix while it was a big thing here is fear of getting arrested. Now I am glad I didn't as I would agree that I am more likely to be a subject of governent "assessment". This just downs me as I feel we have lost our rights to freedom of assembly - I certainly was concerned about the risks of assembling. Add this to my belief that all but the richest are pretty much pawns dealing with the whims of a turbocharged capitalistic marketplace.....It is a downer, it really is to add to the list loss of freedom to assemble - at least without potential consequences. I am just glad Medicaid was expanded in Arizona and that DOMA was struck down so that there is some positive to balance out to some degree all this negative. Rob
Isn't it understood that the U.S. arms extremist groups in Syria as part of arming that resistance - ok I'll say it outright the U.S. arms Muslim extremist groups in Syria - ok some of them are almost certainly even Al Qaeda. So the scandal is that this happened in Libya too?
No, it's not exactly the same. The executive branch violated the War Powers Act, bypassing Congress, in order to intervene in Libya. After doing so, all SNAFU's associated with it logically fell right back onto the administration. When the consulate found itself under an extended attack it appears that the administration went into complete CYA mode rather than waste time sending in resources to defend their people. That's why we were purposely mislead about the nature of the attack for the next week.
At the moment, Congress is attempting to hold up arms shipments to Syria, something they should have put a little more effort into with Libya.
We should keep our arms to ourselves.
when thier lives depend on it...........when the lives of hundreds might depend on it. I do not care how many cell phone conversations, emails, or whatever might need to be read. Just get on with it if it will save lives.
when thier lives depend on it...........when the lives of hundreds might depend on it. I do not care how many cell phone conversations, emails, or whatever might need to be read. Just get on with it if it will save lives.
If this capability had existed during the McCarthy era I'm sure there would've been plenty of people all too happy to use this capabillity to chase down supposed communists. Is it still right if instead of saving lives it's used to destroy lives? Since you think it's ok for the government to spy on citizens for good purposes what controls do you think should be in place to prevent its use for bad purposes?
A lot of lives have been lost in the last 250 years trying to hold on to liberty. Is that something we're now willing to give up to potentially save a few more? Is the cost worth the benefit?
If this capability had existed during the McCarthy era I'm sure there would've been plenty of people all too happy to use this capabillity to chase down supposed communists. Is it still right if instead of saving lives it's used to destroy lives? Since you think it's ok for the government to spy on citizens for good purposes what controls do you think should be in place to prevent its use for bad purposes?
there do need to be controls in place to prevent it being used for bad purposes. This is the world we now live in and I want to be safe. So I believe George W. Bush when he said it put it in place to save lives. Same for Obama, he wants to save lives. I hate the lines at the airports and will endure them.
there do need to be controls in place to prevent it being used for bad purposes. This is the world we now live in and I want to be safe. So I believe George W. Bush when he said it put it in place to save lives. Same for Obama, he wants to save lives. I hate the lines at the airports and will endure them.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen." Samuel Adams, Brewer
ApatheticNoMore
7-12-13, 4:01pm
Totalitarianism gone wrong has been much less safe and a much greater danger than any terrorist (add to that the particular totalitarianism we seem to be headed for just seems a particularly bad one - corporate totalitarianism - though I'm not sure there are that many good ones).
Of course at this point automobile accidents do more damage than terrorists - so yea there is also that. Maybe our top spending priority should be road safety ... to you know keep us safe.
A question: ought we who do not approve of this to be thinking about computer security as civil disobedience (encryption, anonomization, and sometimes just privacy etc. - I'm not being anonymous right now). Because we're all going to become security experts and outsmart the NSA? That's absurd. That's not likely to happen (never say never but ...). At root we've got a political not a technical problem. But at least we could try not to make it easy for them - disobedience. Of course they'll hold your encrypted messages even longer than your unencrypted ones.
U.S. as totalitarian? I don't know, sure headed that way, but not fully. All aspects of life political? Not quite (though all aspects of life are spyed on). Average citizen has no say over their government? Yea kinda, but that's not entirely true at the local level, so not quite ...
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