View Full Version : How to be managerial?
I've had a soul-sucking job for a few years now - I'm good at it, suited to it, and actually love the nuts and bolts of doing the job. I'm lucky to have a position like this in a smallish field that's hard to crack. I make good money and it's helping me keep my household afloat, and we have my MIL to support so I don't have the ability to just stop working. It's a good job on paper.
But it sucks to be here on a daily basis. I've had a ton of jobs. I know there's no such thing as job paradise. People are people. I mean I would love to work for people I respect, but that might be asking a lot. If a change of jerks is really all I'd be getting in a move to a new situation, I'm still up for it - for the same money (or more). I just really need to get out of the situation I'm in.
So - I saw two positions recently that I'm going to apply for. One is for a marketing position in a different field from mine, but my skills would be transferable. The other position is for a management job in my own field, radio. Up to now I've done just about every radio job in the business, except that.
I'm going to throw my hat in, because I've got nothing to lose. But I'm starting to have all kinds of questions since finding out about this opening.
For one - I've never been a manager, and have never come close to being one. What does a recruiter, or whoever that person sitting across the table from me is, want in a prospective manager?
I suppose I can spin it like - look, I've never actually managed before, but I'm in the midst of a situation where I can see what's going wrong and what should be fixed.
I could also say that I've done just about every job you can do at a radio station. People respect managers who have been where they are and have done what they do.
Of course I want to look professional at my interview - but I'm floored about what to wear. The station is a funky NPR-affiliate public station where the staff is a bit hipsterish and alternative. I don't know how far to go with that appearance-wise. I think I should play it safe and steer toward more professional at the interview than otherwise. Any suggestions, though?
I'm wondering why I've never been tapped for a management position in my twenty-five years of employment. My hubby was given his first management position at age 26, and he's been climbing ever since. Whatever it is that people tend to want in a manager, he's apparently got. I would love to see him in action!
Sexism in the workplace could be a factor too, obviously. It's pretty bad in radio actually.
Anyway, I want to come off like a manager at my interview. I'm hoping my bearing, confidence (or pseudo-confidence!) and intellectual grasp of the requirements of a general manager gig will come through, but I also want to seem warm and relaxed.
I was told once by a placement coach that I shouldn't touch my hair or any other part of myself during the interview. I do have a tendency to fiddle and pick, so will try not to do that (without sitting on my hands). 'm a short blonde lady with a shy demeanor, who also looks young for my age. Could be a strike against me. And what if they bring up my age?
I may have forgotten to say that the job is for the general manager of a public radio station. They feature NPR news, a range of music, and interviews and segments with local musicians and culture vultures.
I filled in for my boss once at a meeting, and everybody said they loved the way I ran the meeting. (!)
Other than that, not a lot to draw on if they asked me what I've managed in the past...
You guys are a smart bunch, so your thoughts are appreciated.
Okay, it sounds good. I manage and although it wasn't my first choice at times I find that it has really pushed me to grow. Nothing pushes you to know your job well like teaching it to someone or holding them accountable for doing it. I also work with kids before and after school so I am in a more casual field so hopefully I have a few pointers, in the end go with your gut.
* dress can be less than a suit I would assume, dressy slacks or nice skirt that is tailored instead of short or casual, I wouldn't put on something like a suit jacket but a sweater may be a good choice. I always have some classic jewelry and light makeup for interviews. And shoes! Even if you never wear heels I think even a low heel or at least a dressy flat is good, not your everyday shoes
* Have a set of scenarios in your mind that show managerial aptitude, that may mean working with a group and needing to take charge to get things done, also experience you have teaching another person, consider if you were in charge of a volunteer group or if you play with a music group and tend to be the one getting things done,
* think about what your managerial style may look like, each style has it's place after all, are you more of a team style, authoritarian, delegator who trusts, etc. (there are online quizzes about these things). Then know the advantages and have one challenge you may have with your style. For example I am very collaborative but that means I need to work on taking authority at times
* Have a few good questions going in, there are lists on the internet of good questions to ask at the end of the interview, this is important. Not about how much it pays but a good one is 'what do you see as my biggest challenge coming in' and 'what are the things that have worked well for previous managers that you would like to keep going'
Okay keep us updated
I've been at street level and I've managed, too. Your prospective employer wants to know that you can lead. That's what managers (should) do. They don't climb up the poles to fix outages, take orders from customers, or build widgets on the factory floor. They lead the people who can and do. And they have to manage down (your reports) and manage up (the people to whom you report).
I agree it's helpful to know how to do so many of the jobs at the station. But, as a manager you won't be doing those things. The value it has for you is in knowing how the pieces fit together and in knowing what challenges have to be addressed for success (n.b, this is as it applies to the new organization; it won't be just like your old one even if it's another public radio station). You will have to deal with the issues humans bring to work -- poor job performance because someone's health or marriage is failing; coworkers who clash loudly or passively; learning what will motivate people who are ready for a new position but can't be moved and people who should be in a different position but won't leave; getting the best out of the employee who is brilliant at their job but has no social skills and no interest in the organization's rules and regulations.
So the first thing I would do is round up pretty much any instance you can think of in which you led the way in previous jobs. Chairing interdepartmental committees or Six Sigma/TQM/work circle projects, managing pledge drives, ... anything that shows you've gone beyond your job description to positively influence the direction of the organization through other people.
As for why you've never been tapped for a management position in twenty-five years of employment? I think you have to sell your ability to do the job. You have to tell people you want it and then seek opportunities that kind of let you try out the job. Management jobs rarely come to you. IMHO, management is a huge change from working at street level. It has its pluses and minuses. And not everyone who does a great job on the floor makes a good manager.
Anyway, I want to come off like a manager at my interview. I'm hoping my bearing, confidence (or pseudo-confidence!) and intellectual grasp of the requirements of a general manager gig will come through, but I also want to seem warm and relaxed.
<snip>
I'm a short blonde lady with a shy demeanor, who also looks young for my age. Could be a strike against me. And what if they bring up my age?
They cannot bring up your age. That's protected information. Besides, age is irrelevant. Mark Zuckerberg, the CEO of Facebook, isn't even 30 yet....
The shy demeanor may hurt you more than anything. There's no issue with being introverted (though consider that this is a job dealing almost 100% with people) or reserved or quiet. But you do have to demonstrate influence and leadership and the ability to not fold when things get ugly.
Be yourself. You won't make it for long being someone else anyway. Look confident, act like a team player without being a yes-woman, and be open to their ideas as well as supplying your own.
think about what your managerial style may look like, each style has it's place after all, are you more of a team style, authoritarian, delegator who trusts, etc. (there are online quizzes about these things). Then know the advantages and have one challenge you may have with your style. For example I am very collaborative but that means I need to work on taking authority at times
This is excellent advice. First, every organization's culture is different. Second, the people hiring may be looking for specific skills or for the manager to achieve a particular goal. Find out what these are.
One manager's job I had was coming in after the previous manager had been fired (!) for poor performance. I could have gone in there as the "numbers" guy or the "knowledge is everything" guy-- and failed miserably. The main goal was getting people engaged in their work, not pure operational excellence. Success -- for all of us -- depended on my knowing that and executing according to that plan.
Good luck! Go get 'em! :)
Good luck, kitten!
I'm gearing up for a major internal promotion opportunity at the moment, and have been reading a lot of stuff about improving your situation at work, effective negotiating, etc. I highly recommend the book "Ask for It", which is mostly about negotiation skills but also has a lot of useful advice about managing how people perceive you as a female professional.
Agree with what Steve says about people skills and problem solving skills being primary. One suggestion I would have is that in your interview, try to get an opportunity to ask the people who interview you what their greatest challenge is currently, and then speak to how you would address that. People want someone who can help them fix stuff.
good luck!
lhamo
Thanks for the nice messages :)
Zoe Girl, I never thought of teaching as a management skill, but it certainly is. I've done some tutoring (ages ago) but perhaps it counts. Thanks!
Steve, great advice! I was struck by one sentence especially -
...learning what will motivate people who are ready for a new position but can't be moved and people who should be in a different position but won't leave...
I'm curious about this because it's an ongoing problem where I am right now. In my current company, my boss is in charge of his own department (programming) and has the authority to hire, fire, and move people around. It's very clear that some people are in the wrong position, whether or not they know it. It's really sad, because people who are under-performing and clearly anguished about it could do a lot better in another slot. But managers have the power to do this, no? I mean it's actually happened quite a bit at my company lately, although my boss pretends it's not so.
If I have a problem, my manager will say, "Why can't you talk to the person?" I'll say, "I have, he's not coming through, I could use your firepower."
My manager then says, "Oh, I'll try but I'm not sure it's going to do any good."
This always floors me. If you're the manager, you just walk over to the person and ask for an update on the project. If they're behind, chat with them about why and what can be done to expedite it. No worries, right? Managers have the power to effect change. I don't. That's why I need the manager's help. Am I getting any of this wrong?
This is why I have to cc the managers on at least half of my email exchanges with other employees. I rarely even get a response unless they think a manager is in the loop!
Long way of asking - are you saying that I'm STILL going to have these problems, even as a manager?
btw - thanks for the good luck wishes! I have no idea if I'm even going to get an interview - this is really a best-case scenario that I'm running by y'all.
Thanks lhamo, I'll look up Ask For It. Sounds interesting!
Yes - they want to see that I'm a problem solver. Makes sense. It's not so much about showing them how shiny and cool I am, but getting them to believe I could help them achieve what they need to accomplish. I know from seeing a few people at my present company sail in and back out again, that fitting into the culture is important. You can't just burst in and try to change everything right out of the gate, without understanding the dynamic. And people hate that!
Yeah, people skills are important!
From what I've seen, management is mostly problem-solving. I've had some crap managers, and maybe two great ones. The crap ones have taught me by negative example. Because I'm in a structure where it's nearly impossible to get help, and I'm alternately dismissed when I have issues and attacked for manufactured flaws and hard-to-prove perception errors, I've learned that this dynamic is disastrous. When people feel under threat of attack, they stop asking questions and stop talking to each other. A big old crack opens up, and things start falling through pretty rapidly.
I had a really good boss once. I've begged him to come back to the biz, but he's retired. Once I was accused of having lost a commercial production order. I complained to my boss about the behavior of the production director, who was being a horrible puke. A few days later the production order mysteriously appeared. Somebody sneaked it into my inbox - probably the traffic assistant (nobody else handled those things), but because the production director liked the traffic assistant, she was never raked over the coals. No, just yours truly, who never lost, because I never even received, that damn order! Anyway, my boss stood up for me and read the guy the riot act! He was wonderful! He's the kind of boss you want to have, and that's the kind I would like to be.
I've trained people on occasion. Would that count as managerial-type experience?
Steve, great advice! I was struck by one sentence especially -
...learning what will motivate people who are ready for a new position but can't be moved and people who should be in a different position but won't leave...
I'm curious about this because it's an ongoing problem where I am right now. In my current company, my boss is in charge of his own department (programming) and has the authority to hire, fire, and move people around. It's very clear that some people are in the wrong position, whether or not they know it. It's really sad, because people who are under-performing and clearly anguished about it could do a lot better in another slot. But managers have the power to do this, no?
No. And yes. It's complicated. :~)
Generally, the larger the company, the less a manager will be able to do entirely on his/her own. Hiring usually calls for choosing from a list of applicants provided by Personnel/HR, which, in turn, narrows the field by requiring particular skills, salary ranges, certifications/licensing, citizenship/visas/etc., and whether candidates can be external or must already be employees, etc.
Firing -- even for obvious offenses like downloading pr0n on a company computer -- will involve the manager, the legal department, HR/personnel, etc. to make sure legal t's are crossed and i's dotted.
Moving people ... well, that depends again on necessary qualifications (see two paragraphs above) and the abilities of the person being considered for the move. It also depends on whether the work done by the person being moved either can go away (unlikely), be farmed out (maybe, but how much more can you stack onto already-busy coworkers?), or must be taken on by a replacement (who comes from ... where?)
Then there are external complications. For most of the last three years at my old workplace, they were shedding IT employees as quickly as they could, mostly by farming out support of certain programs. There were not enough open positions for all of those support employees to stay; never mind that many of the open positions required skills these people did not have and could not reasonably be expected to acquire soon enough.
There may not be the budget to move people from job to job, especially if grade changes are involved or if one or both of the employees are at ends of their pay scale. There may not be money for appropriate training to do the new job -- or time to wait for that training, depending on the skill level involved.
The part about "learning what will motivate people who are ready for a new position but can't be moved and people who should be in a different position but won't leave" referred more specifically to situations like those I mentioned above. Particularly in organizations with unions or with much more process around HR, it's very hard to do much with an employee who is skating along in performance but doing enough to keep their job. It's not like you can pay them more money for the job they're barely doing now. It's not like you can ignore that person's coworkers complaining about him/her not carrying their weight. How do you address that? There may be people who've mastered their job and no longer find it challenging, but budgets or staff counts put promotion or a move out of the running for months or years. What, then, to keep them engaged within the limits of their jobs, their pay, and the organization's needs?
If I have a problem, my manager will say, "Why can't you talk to the person?" I'll say, "I have, he's not coming through, I could use your firepower."
My manager then says, "Oh, I'll try but I'm not sure it's going to do any good."
This always floors me. If you're the manager, you just walk over to the person and ask for an update on the project. If they're behind, chat with them about why and what can be done to expedite it. No worries, right? Managers have the power to effect change. I don't. That's why I need the manager's help. Am I getting any of this wrong?
Yes. And no. It's complicated. :~)
Yes, managers can effect change, in a number of ways. They can be autocratic in setting goals and objectives; that will make things change. They can try to understand the real issues behind the issues so they can run interference; that can make things change. They can better illustrate the importance of a particular task or goal or philosophy so employees better understand why they're doing what they're doing.
But managers come at such situations at a bit of a disadvantage. They're responsible for the actions of many people, so they can't know every aspect of every job as closely as they might like to. Which means they may not understand all the issues that keep something from happening, especially in cross-team work. Managers, to some extent, have to compete with other managers for the attention and money of higher-ups, so there are some limits in what they can do to effect change. They do have with some level of authority; sometimes the presence of authority does bad things to some people.
Long way of asking - are you saying that I'm STILL going to have these problems, even as a manager?
Sadly, yes. Everyone has a boss. So, to some degree, everyone is limited to what they can change because they don't know everything that's going on. A manager may not be able to relate to a particular employee any better than you can as a coworker and, in fact, may have issues because (s)he is a manager.
I apologize; I'm writing a book here.
Management is a complicated business. And I don't want to make it look like a horrible job that no one in their right mind could want.
My experiences in management have -- largely -- been the toughest jobs I've ever loved. I enjoyed working with people to make organizational progress that I could not possibly have made on my own. I am still friends with people I worked with and coached 15 years ago and I'm delighted to see the progress they've made in their careers. But there also are no-win management jobs littered with bad morale, with no real ability to fix things, or with particular organizational issues that make a specific manager a bad fit. Being a manager will solve some problems for you and create some new ones. I'll have to admit I reveled in the first time I was sick at home and I didn't have to nap with my pager.
You'll have to decide if the kinds of issues you'll face as a manager will be the kinds of challenges you will want to work to master -- or if they will send you home to a bottle of Jack every night.
Steve -- you shouldn't apologize. You are giving great input here!
kitten, one thing to be VERY attentive to when you are exploring new opportunities is what the culture/atmosphere of the other employer is like. I did not pursue a promotional opportunity in my previous organization because I knew the way the job was structured made it impossible to succeed (the previous person in the position left after a major nervous breakdown). the culture of the organization was highly dysfunctional and really there was no way to succeed in any position there, at least not at the middle-management level where I was. My current organization is vastly different -- we still have issues, as any organization does, but the mission statement is more than just verbal kerfluffle and most of my colleagues are amazing and great to work with. Makes a huge difference. Your current place sounds truly toxic so it is probably a good idea to explore any and all alternatives, but as you explore the options be ultra sensitive to how people talk about the place you are applying as employees at all levels. Beware places where everyone seems unhappy or where they are especially guarded about what they tell you. Bad signs all around. Glassdoor can be a good place to get objective reviews of different employers.
Some people might be put off by the evangelical underpinnings of their message, but I have learned a lot about good leadership and management practices from the EntreLeadership series of podcasts Dave Ramsey's outfit produces. They have done some SPECTACULAR interviews with leaders in the leadership/management field that are really thought-provoking. The stuff on company culture, goal setting, team-building, etc. are all excellent. They are oriented toward the small businessperson, but I find that a lot of the advice/strategies work well in my largish non-profit context.
In my experience, there are leaders by appointment to position, but also natural leaders that people follow within a work group. I am growing slightly out of touch with work force trends, but in my days of interviewing it was important to hear as much a persons experience and skills, but also situations where there was a successful and significant outcome to a project or problem. The interview would have questions leading that way. Maybe in your case you might have had a role as one of those natural leaders in your work group that would be worth highlighting?
At least in my work environment, a good manager was not necessarily a problem solver, but was able to present challenges to the work groups and turn them loose to find solutions. The manager was the motivator and able to sort out good and bad solutions. (I can sort of see this style with Obama, FWIW). Believe it or not, I also found some excellent examples of good leadership style with Don Draper in Mad Men.
I have worked as a manager and also as a technical professional. I personally think that management positions are over rated and end up settling personnel problems and quibbling over politics. I was much more satisfied doing what I thought of as real work and was able to make a significant and rewarding contribution as one of the worker bees. We are all different in what we might find suited to our skills and personalities.
SteveinMN
7-24-13, 10:32am
At least in my work environment, a good manager was not necessarily a problem solver, but was able to present challenges to the work groups and turn them loose to find solutions. The manager was the motivator and able to sort out good and bad solutions.
Rogar, very good points throughout your post.
However, your word choice in the quoted part above brings me to a couple of semantic issues that I believe entrap too many managers:
- When I was working, I never worked for Acme Co., Ultradyne Systems, wherever. I worked at these companies. Seems like just word choice, but it isn't, really. Especially in these days of extremely low loyalty between employer and employee, it's important to recognize that employees work for themselves. They work to make money and to house and feed their families or their toys; they work to do something that matters to them. Ideally they work at something they enjoy. But let them find one good lottery ticket or get enough retirement points and most people will quickly get outta wherever they were working. Similarly, employees leave bad organizations in droves when there is any decent alternative. People work for themselves. Your organization is just where they are at this time.
- As a result, people provide their own motivation to work. And if that doesn't exist, almost all of them will go someplace else to find it -- even if that someplace else is quitting or retirement. Not everyone is out to make as much money as they possibly can. Not everyone wants to be CEO. Some people are motivated by the ability to influence people or their chosen field. Some people are motivated by a workplace that has become their (second) family. Others are not. Good managers recognize this. In my previous post, I mentioned an employee who was ready to move but maybe could not. If that person is motivated by influence, then getting them onto a few cross-group teams or making them a de facto lead might be just the thing. Offering them more $$ -- even if you could -- would not do much for them.
- The people who report to you are never your people. They are the people you get to work with at that point in time. They have their own lives, their own interests, their own motivators. They won't always see eye-to-eye with you. Or the organization. They owe you nothing more than respect for your position. They may give more. But that's up to them, not you.
I know these seem like subtle distinctions, but words have power. Managers need to remember that nothing happens just because they decree it. I once worked at an airline at which the CEO declared that Acme Airline was going to be the airline of choice among business travelers. Swell. He never seemed to figure out that it was hard to make customer-service staff work hard with customers when management wasn't willing to work hard with employees. Acme Airline isn't the hotshot pontificating in the corner office while he wears a nice suit. It's the cleaner that can't be bothered to clean your tray table. It's the flight attendant who finds a coloring book and crayons for your restless toddler during a long flight. It's the pilot that cannot be bothered to get on the horn and explain to a full plane on the tarmac why they've been waiting for half an hour to take off.
One of the most important tasks of a manager is to find ways to bring people along in ways that make the organization successful -- especially if what must be done collectively is difficult or ugly. Ownership went out of style in this country in the early 20th century. Collaboration is in. No manager can do much of anything without the people who report to him or her.
SteveinMN
7-24-13, 10:33am
Sorry -- management, good and bad (especially bad) hits a real nerve with me....
Great stuff, Steve. Have you written a book? If not, you should! So true, managers are still employees. Theyr'e limited and constrained. They're certainly not God, though they may seem like it to their envious underlings. 'Sall relative!
lhamo, wonderful point about company culture. It's one of those things you can't ask straight out during the interview, though I'd LOVE to just say, "Okay, tell me straight, does this place suck?" LOL But you're right, you can tell a lot just by the way the place feels. And by what people look like and whether they're talking as you get the tour. In some workplaces there's no talking at all, which would be a deal-breaker for me. The expression on the interviewer's face can tell a story too. I had an interview at a company where all the signs, from the minute I set foot in that building, were screaming at me to run away. I did, about two months later. I've learned to pay attention to my gut!
I still need a tactful way to approach this during the interview though. Can you ask the person, "Are you happy here?" Or should I stick to questions like, "What is the biggest challenge facing the person who will be taking on this job?" Zoe Girl recommended asking that. And maybe, "How long do people tend to stay here?" LOL
My main area of curiosity would be: "Is the culture open to change? Are ideas encouraged or not?" That last piece matters the most to me, after my recent experience...
From Steve -
I once worked at an airline at which the CEO declared that Acme Airline was going to be the airline of choice among business travelers. Swell. He never seemed to figure out that it was hard to make customer-service staff work hard with customers when management wasn't willing to work hard with employees.
Oh man, yes, yes, YES! A CEO can't just wave a wand and wish their company into greatness. Managers have to work hard with their employees, just like you say. Why so many don't is beyond me.
I've worked with managers who did as much work as their teams. Also worked with people who bragged about being "idea types, not implementers." I've heard: "You're here to make me look good." When you have an issue down the road, they're all, "I extricated myself from that a long time ago."
Got a situation right now where my boss, who has a personal philosophy of withdrawal from life as a way of dealing with stress (he's chatted with me about this on occasion), justifies his inaction as a manager by claiming that he just doesn't get involved with "every little thing." But he blows up if you go forward on that assumption.
Example: a company contacted me to do an appearance. I asked my boss if he would permit me to do the event. He said, "It doesn't matter to me one way or the other." So I made plans to do the thing. Comes the day I'm getting ready to go off to the appearance, and he blows his stack: "How come I never knew about this?" I had to go back and find the emails where had discussed this, even printed them out and highlighted with a pen the areas where I said to them, "I'll have to keep my manager in the loop on this, let me ask him about this and get back to you." He was just barely placated, but thank f*ck I keep everything. Damned if you do, etc.
Oh my, the stories I could tell. I'm surrounded by wonderful negative examples - these folks are teaching me how NOT to do it. I do try to find the silver lining ;)
Rogar, thanks, I LOVE your notion of the natural leader. Struck by this -
Maybe in your case you might have had a role as one of those natural leaders in your work group that would be worth highlighting?
I think I can come up with some instances of that, thanks!
I'm also interested in your point that managing can be less than wonderful if you just don't enjoy it - some get far more pleasure from other kinds of tasks (the real work as you call it) than from managing people and trying to motivate them. We're not all Anthony Robbins (I really can't stand that guy though!) Anyway, yes, I might not necessarily find managing rewarding - it's a different kind of thing. Will bear that in mind, if they ever give me a shot at it!
Managers need to remember that nothing happens just because they decree it. I once worked at an airline at which the CEO declared that Acme Airline was going to be the airline of choice among business travelers. Swell. He never seemed to figure out that it was hard to make customer-service staff work hard with customers when management wasn't willing to work hard with employees.
One of the most important tasks of a manager is to find ways to bring people along in ways that make the organization successful -- especially if what must be done collectively is difficult or ugly. Ownership went out of style in this country in the early 20th century. Collaboration is in. No manager can do much of anything without the people who report to him or her.
Sigh, It reminds me that I would both love to have and hate to have my manager' job. She and our organization have made bold pronouncements about how great our programs will be, nationally recognized is one goal for us. As of last year the only thing we would be nationally recognized in is screwing up. The combination of going out of our way to work with families to care for their children and then being asked why I would give a staff person a day off to take care of themselves or their own family really affected the environment. We have a district wide set of core values, one is accountability and another integrity. Giving people the chance to take care of themselves with time they have earned is integrity to me. So decreeing we would be the best is not creating the best. I don't want to sound egotistical but most people who have worked for me ask to work for me again, we do not hit every goal we set, we have issues, but they are willing to work for me and that is very relevant. Some of our managers get that, and others think they can just state something, give a training, hold accountable, do a write up/corrective action and then of course replace this person with a new person who must be better (one of our MAJOR issues is being staffed well enough, a new person off the street is no guaranteed and not trained, as compared to reasonably working with a employee on an issue).
I am off work until August 1st, I am already a little stressed about some of the chronic issues. Steve, I may be asking for advice but pretty much I know what to do and just need to stay assertive on these things! or write in my ideas to Dilbert
A CEO can't just wave a wand and wish their company into greatness. Managers have to work hard with their employees, just like you say. Why so many don't is beyond me.
Lots of reasons, I think. Folks at the CEO level generally have chosen to make the organization their primary relationship, so they may not have much of a clue what it's like for the people who get actual work done who have to share their work hours with sick kids, elderly parents, money woes, old cars, underemployment, and not having the support and resources most CEOs get. I also think some CEOs have a bit of a god complex -- for too many years they've said 'jump' and people answered 'how high'?
I also think employees tend to put CEOs on a bit of a pedestal. For years I thought CEOs were incapable of reading dot-matrix printout. Everything handed to them was in bullet points or graphs from a laser printer. By the time you distill all the info into a Powerpoint preso, there's not a lot of info there. Nobody wants to bring the CEO the bad news, either. And so the CEO gets more and more out of touch with reality.
But a lot of it is that as you move up in an organization, you have to become more and more a generalist. And you miss that the real workers have to follow sometimes-contradictory rules and processes and have competing goals in the organization you have helped set up.
Zoe Girl gave you the right question to ask about the company culture. Remember that people will be trying to guess what you're really asking for, so be careful what you ask.
And, yes, most of what I learned about good management came from ... bad management. :~)
Sigh, It reminds me that I would both love to have and hate to have my manager' job. She and our organization have made bold pronouncements about how great our programs will be, nationally recognized is one goal for us. As of last year the only thing we would be nationally recognized in is screwing up. The combination of going out of our way to work with families to care for their children and then being asked why I would give a staff person a day off to take care of themselves or their own family really affected the environment. We have a district wide set of core values, one is accountability and another integrity. Giving people the chance to take care of themselves with time they have earned is integrity to me. So decreeing we would be the best is not creating the best. I don't want to sound egotistical but most people who have worked for me ask to work for me again, we do not hit every goal we set, we have issues, but they are willing to work for me and that is very relevant. Some of our managers get that, and others think they can just state something, give a training, hold accountable, do a write up/corrective action and then of course replace this person with a new person who must be better (one of our MAJOR issues is being staffed well enough, a new person off the street is no guaranteed and not trained, as compared to reasonably working with a employee on an issue).
At my old workplace, they had discussed giving me my boss' job. There's no way in the world I would have taken it -- the compensation was inadequate for what I'd have to deal with. Yes, management gets better the further one gets up the chain.
I learned long ago not to listen to what management says, but to watch what they do. In my Acme Airlines example, management never seemed to get that it was hard for employees to keep walking proudly when management was kicking them in the butt repeatedly. It's one thing to announce a bold initiative; another to support it with enough staff, training, equipment and -- probably the most-often forgotten -- attention paid to keeping the train running while work continues on the New Big Deal. When I left work last year, we were working on a new manufacturing control system. No argument that we needed one. But it's not like we could shut down plants for several months while the new system was worked on, tested, and installed. So the grand plan of having everyone work on the new system suffered for the effort involved in keeping the existing patched systems up and running properly. No manufacturing, no $$. Yet it was very hard to get that message to upper management.
I think the key to situations like yours, ZG, is to speak plainly and realistical to management about how things are. I've had the most success in presenting to management the competing demands for them to prioritize, making it clear especially the result of not doing something or choosing Option A over Option B. It's not merely a matter of working more hours. And there is a limit to what can be done without enough equipment or training -- or management can choose to accept the risk, in which case you mitigate as much as you can and keep moving. I see this as making management do its job. This "take credit for success but delegate blame" nonsense is not why they're paid the big bucks.
No. And yes. It's complicated. :~)
...
Management is a complicated business. And I don't want to make it look like a horrible job that no one in their right mind could want.
....
That's exactly how I saw it. I was approached several times about it, and it looked to me that 1) it was a political game--with all that implies--and you'd be getting it from both sides, and 2) I wouldn't make much more money--if any--than I could make with a little overtime, and 3) I couldn't parrot the company line without it getting caught in my throat. I wasn't cut out for the corporate life, and I never should have been involved in it. If I had it to do over...
Rogar, very good points throughout your post.
However, your word choice in the quoted part above brings me to a couple of semantic issues that I believe entrap too many managers........
Steve, I won't quote all of you message for the sake of brevity. In the last few years of my employment our company went to self-directed work units. These units did many of the traditional managerial tasks like hiring new workers, certain promotions, and even managing departmental budgets. Although it was a bit of corporate jargon, it was said that the managers job was to make sure the work units had everything they needed to do their job. It was a difficult transition for those who only wanted to do their work and collect a paycheck, but it significantly improved the attitude and ambitions of most, as they had a real say in the direction of operations. And the managers...well mid-management lost a lot of jobs. Any remnant of the dictatorial management style became much smaller and many of the managers had trouble giving up their power and authority. I don't know if this structure would work in all environments, but I think it is not another program, but the next level of company success for many business sectors.
I have a friend who is in management who uses the term, my people. It just about makes me cringe. It implies some sort of dominion and arrogance of power to me.
It's one thing to announce a bold initiative; another to support it with enough staff, training, equipment and -- probably the most-often forgotten -- attention paid to keeping the train running while work continues on the New Big Deal. When I left work last year, we were working on a new manufacturing control system. No argument that we needed one. But it's not like we could shut down plants for several months while the new system was worked on, tested, and installed. So the grand plan of having everyone work on the new system suffered for the effort involved in keeping the existing patched systems up and running properly. No manufacturing, no $$. Yet it was very hard to get that message to upper management.
I think the key to situations like yours, ZG, is to speak plainly and realistical to management about how things are. I've had the most success in presenting to management the competing demands for them to prioritize, making it clear especially the result of not doing something or choosing Option A over Option B.
You put that very clearly, which is good because I am gearing up to go back. During my month off I still get contacted because some families and staff only have my information and I am only off one month so it makes sense to just answer a few questions rather than pass off to someone who does not know the situation and is short on time. So I am thinking about what I need to address next year, and feeling a little burned out on being the person who keeps on doing this (but without the drama mind you).
In any case what happened last year was a huge initiative for quality improvement. Good ideas, well developed program, and the trainings I liked. Meanwhile whether it was because we were finally keeping better track or because we were over focused on improving quality we had many 'critical incidents' (that means leaving a child behind on the playground or in a bathroom without noticing) as a program of 60 schools. So our foundation was not there when we went into the grand areas of improvement. Some sites put lofty goals on their plan but we put realistic goals on ours, not very impressive but we NEVER had a critical incident. So for 3/4 of the school year I felt a lot of pressure for loftier goals while I stubbornly stuck to our appropriate goals. Then the end of year process led by administration was just dropped without a word. In fall our part of the process held high consequences if it was not completed in time, however the end of year part when we had site visits and observations was totally dropped and I don't know if there are consequences to anyone there. The primary reason as far as I can tell is that it was simply too much to really pull off. We have staff turn over all the time and so you cannot keep pushing for higher quality when new staff needs the basics, and since we trained them in the higher quality issues instead of how to take kids through the afternoon without losing anyone we ended up losing kids.
So If you say 'this is unsustainable' early in the process you just have a bad attitude, and later no one really wants to talk about it. I think I need to make an 'I told you so' jar for myself. With kids sometimes you have tattle jars, I need one where I can put all the things I can really never talk about in a jar.
Zoe Girl says -
So If you say 'this is unsustainable' early in the process you just have a bad attitude, and later no one really wants to talk about it. I think I need to make an 'I told you so' jar for myself. With kids sometimes you have tattle jars, I need one where I can put all the things I can really never talk about in a jar.
Oh yeah. I totally.understand.this.
They should be listening to your warnings. And when they don't, and stuff goes down like you said it would, they just ignore that too - so they're not learning from their mistakes. Stubborn dumbosity. Oh, and you gotta love it that they're accusing YOU of having a bad attitude!
You know, I hate that thing some managers say: "Don't bring me problems, bring me solutions." Managers from hell don't want to hear solutions either. Sounds like the ones you're dealing with don't want to hear anything! And you've got actual consequences for things that go wrong, like kids being exposed to harm. (Wow, I thought my workplace sucked, lol)
You should have an "I told you so" jar! It could be a notebook or computer file where you write all this stuff down - times when you tried to anticipate and forestall a disaster, but your input wasn't valued or incorporated, to the company's detriment. You never know, it could come in handy someday.
Career counselors are always telling people to keep a list of their accomplishments. It's important especially if you're not being recognized at work. The act of recording your triumphs, even if they went unacknowledged, has got to be good for the soul.
So thanks for the "I told you so" jar idea, it ROCKS!
I'm going to start one of those myself. Great name, by the way!
Zoe Girl - As of last year the only thing we would be nationally recognized in is screwing up
LOL! Not if they'd let you do something about it, though!
At least your manager has a goal for national recognition. When I bring stuff up like that, my boss is like, "Why does that matter?" Oh, it must be nice inside the bubble...
They should be listening to your warnings. And when they don't, and stuff goes down like you said it would, they just ignore that too - so they're not learning from their mistakes. Stubborn dumbosity. Oh, and you gotta love it that they're accusing YOU of having a bad attitude!
So thanks for the "I told you so" jar idea, it ROCKS!
I'm going to start one of those myself. Great name, by the way!
what is so funny right now is remembering our end of year lunch with compliments and sharing and all that. my manager STILL says i am the most positive person on the team, all the time. I think it is HOW i share my concerns and frustrations which I have actively trained myself to continually improve on. I say a lot more than I ever did before, if it bothers me enough to go complain to 5 other people (or feel like it) then i need to find a way to say something to the right person. If I hear a staff person who is complaining a lot I walk them through how to have that conversation as well.
So there are several issues that I have a concern about and am not silent at all, yet my manager still says I am the most positive. I think she misunderstands quite a bit, heck human communication drive me bonkers most of the time. One time she said "I know you don't like me very much", my answer was that it was not about liking her, it was about disagreeing on a decision she made especially since I thought I would have the freedom to make that decision.
The most difficult thing at times is how I think and process and how that works in the workplace. I think in larger concepts and seek out data to understand and to make decisions, then I get into reality of making it happen. THe reality of making one thing happen takes so many tiny related details. So when I see the organizational goal of building community, then I think of my goal of 5 family nights during the year, then I look at my attendance data for previous family nights with factors that affected attendance, then I realize being in our program at pickup time to meet and greet families starting the first week of school, going to PTA meetings, working with teachers who have family night ideas, finding talents to bring to family night and spending time building that relationship, knowing the building schedule, etc. are essential. In daily work this means spending a LOT of time building communication, and frustration communicating what I need to my department and supervisor. My sup will send people to me to learn since I have successful family nights, and then the next week want to hold meetings during my prime connection time which I refuse and reschedule or tell me that I need to sit in my office with paperwork and planning. I can plan a family night solo in my office in a couple hours, if I build it with everyone involved I need to start weeks ahead. The killer last year was after we all had reading family nights at all different schools on the same night, our sup had visited and complimented us. In a meeting she was pushing hard for quality improvement and wanted to know why every day was not like what she saw that day, I was the one with the guts to say something and that was that it took 2 weeks to plan our events, we had extra volunteer and parent involvement, extra supplies and food. I think we really felt the compliment on our family nights was turned into a criticism. So somehow she still thinks I am positive even though I will say something in the middle of a meeting to defend ourselves.
Okay gonna write these things down!
SteveinMN
7-25-13, 10:32am
Steve, I won't quote all of you message for the sake of brevity.
:)
It was a difficult transition for those who only wanted to do their work and collect a paycheck, but it significantly improved the attitude and ambitions of most, as they had a real say in the direction of operations. And the managers...well mid-management lost a lot of jobs. Any remnant of the dictatorial management style became much smaller and many of the managers had trouble giving up their power and authority. I don't know if this structure would work in all environments, but I think it is not another program, but the next level of company success for many business sectors.
It sounds like the two of us are on the same page. I hope you didn't think I was calling you out; it was just the word motivator that kicked off my semantic thing (diatribe?) about what people really mean when they say things.
I cannot think of a work environment which cannot be improved with the voice of those actually doing the work. Not that every initiative should start from the bottom up. But initiatives made without buy-in at street level are doomed.
SteveinMN
7-25-13, 10:45am
My sup will send people to me to learn since I have successful family nights, and then the next week want to hold meetings during my prime connection time which I refuse and reschedule or tell me that I need to sit in my office with paperwork and planning.
I wonder sometimes if that isn't just The Peter Principle in action -- that the manager is just overloaded with work and stops thinking.
Or maybe it's a magnetic field around the doors into the building. I spent 30 years in the workforce. I never understood why a company officer who drove to work in a Lexus or BMW -- obviously able to tell the difference between those cars and, say, a Dodge or Kia --would insist that purchased-product A was just as good as purchased-product B when A was half the price. The obvious question is whether you get any more value for your money from product B. This was especially ironic working at a company that prided itself on not making "commodity" goods (i.e., bought on price alone).
Or why management addressed complaints of work overload by scheduling multiple-hour sessions to discuss the problem. One of my favorite cartoons has a boss explaining to an employee that they're going to be holding a 10-day meeting to discuss why they're not making enough sales calls.
I also never understood why someone with qualifications and experience outlining possible pitfalls in a proposed course of action got the ol' stinkeye. Sure, there are Negative Neddies out there. Sure, most people aren't crazy about change. But we all (ostensibly) were hired for our initiative and ability to work independently and get the job done. Why snuff out that flame before it can illuminate? Or before it means real fire-fighting later on?
I'm damn glad I'm retired....
I cannot think of a work environment which cannot be improved with the voice of those actually doing the work. Not that every initiative should start from the bottom up. But initiatives made without buy-in at street level are doomed.
This has happened a lot where I work - autocratic, off-the-cuff, wrong-headed changes with no concern for how they effect those who have to implement them. Our management structure lacks the know-how and experience of the staff, so it pushes the door closed in order to disguise its own incompetence. It doesn't work, though - everyone knows they're running around like headless chickens. Why don't they collaborate with us? We could help. A lot.
Situation - two upper levels of management, each with one manager. Neither of them has ever worked at any other company within our business. When you look at the staff (my level), it's a different story. Nearly ALL of us has had some experience at other companies in our field, and many of us have expertise in areas specific to a recent status change the company has undergone (a switch from commercial to public radio).
I will say that our top-level manager has for the first time begun to be open to suggestions. It marks a big change. The manager below this one is still head-in-the-sand, and in the past has forbidden us to approach the level above with our questions, suggestions, or pleas for help. (He perceives this as us going above him.) But now that the top level has opened the door just a crack, I'm hoping things will change.
It took five years (and more for those who were here before me) for this to happen. It'll probably be another five before they make the next incremental improvement. I really don't want to be waiting around for basic crap like, "Yes, it's okay to talk to me now."
And knowing what they're like, it'll be more like, "Oh, I said you could talk to me Tuesday, but it's changed now. No more talking to me."
I was the one with the guts to say something and that was that it took 2 weeks to plan our events, we had extra volunteer and parent involvement, extra supplies and food. I think we really felt the compliment on our family nights was turned into a criticism. So somehow she still thinks I am positive even though I will say something in the middle of a meeting to defend ourselves.
She asked a question, and you answered it. That was positive. Now she knows exactly what you need to have a repeat performance. And it doesn't even sound that difficult to put together. You just need more time to plan, more supplies, and more people to help you. Not rocket science. Let's hope she actually listens and learns from it!
AMEN to that!
I agree as well, a quick announcement at a staff meeting where we all go back on convince our staff of something we may not have our own buy-in with is a long haul to create.
ZG,
Is your manager by any chance a Teach for America alumn? I have read that a very large percentage of TFA alumni who stay in education don't actually remain front-line teaching staff, but instead go into management. I just wondered because you mentioned that she is considerably younger than you, and also some of the things you say about the unrealistic goal setting, etc. sound very typical of what I have heard about Teach for America and seen a bit in their China branch, Teach for China. Quite a strong need for a reality check. You cannot transform underperforming schools in communities with significant economic and other challenges in a short time period. Anyone who thinks they can is either crazy or lying at some level. It is a slow, incremental process. The hard work you put into planning your family nights is a great example of that. Stick to your guns. Real progress rooted in the truth of the situation will win out in the end.
lhamo
In my view, you have to put up with a lot of crap to be a manager/supervisor. When my manager was promoted some months back, people (not in my department) kept urging me to apply. I have a very low annoyance threshold, so it would not be a good fit, plus I'd have been bored quickly. When I look at what my department's supervisor deals with daily, it's primarily stupid accounting issues. No, thank you. I'd be bored in her position, too. I have lots of variety in what I do now. Being a licensed customs broker who is the go-to for lots of questions, having things to research (I love doing this), variety in things handled is what I do now, in addition to handling customers of my own, and lots of odd stuff. It would be nice to just have a bit of authority.
I'd also spend most of the time biting my tongue as a manager. No, thank you.
Frankly, I have reason to believe I make more than my department's supervisor does, given that I have a bachelor's degree and my brokers license.
Truth!
I feel the same - I don't really want to leave what I'm actually doing and switch to management. But some people in my field who manage also keep an on-air slot, so ideally I could hold onto a piece of what I love about the business. But it doesn't matter, they're not going to hire me anyway. Only big, tall, loud-talking guys with a certain kind of 'tude seem to ever get tapped for radio station management, or women who become "bullying bitches" as one of my former female managers was once called. I love it - women are bitches, guys are a$$holes. But you're talking about the same behavior.
I'm probably way too "nice" (as in how I come off, not necessarily how I really am) for this job I'm going for. But I'll apply anyway, because I'm so miserable that I simply have nothing to lose. That can be a good place to be, actually!
In my view, you have to put up with a lot of crap to be a manager/supervisor.
SteveinMN
7-29-13, 11:29am
But I'll apply anyway, because I'm so miserable that I simply have nothing to lose. That can be a good place to be, actually!
If nothing else, it's good experience for the next time...
jennipurrr
7-30-13, 10:12pm
In my view, you have to put up with a lot of crap to be a manager/supervisor. When my manager was promoted some months back, people (not in my department) kept urging me to apply. I have a very low annoyance threshold
DH and I both went from technical positions to middle management about a year ago...I guess we're the pointy haired bosses now, LOL. We had both managed IT projects, but never had direct reports...learning experience! At least we had each other through it as we've been able to understand the struggles and challenges.
Anyway, one thing DH says is sort of the same/sort of the opposite of what Tradd said above...he said when he became a manager his threshold for BS shrunk considerably. That employee that is half assing it? The one that constantly stirs the pot with gossip and tension? Well, as a peer those things are just kind of annoying, but as a manager you are accountable for the output of the entire department, and you have to care, you have to fight those battles, otherwise it falls back on you personally to pick up the slack.
I have been happy in my change as I really needed something different. I remember from your posts Kitten that you have had some job discontent also, so it may be a good thing to be looking out at different possibilities.
Thanks all for sharing your experiences...good read for a newish manager. I am going to for sure check out the Dave Ramsey podcasts. I live in the south so I'm used to being proselytized, and can tune out the bible-y parts, haha.
Thanks Jennipurrr - yes, I'm really at my wits' end in my job, and am probably guilty of "half-assing" it right now!
I can imagine, as a manger, losing patience with under-performers. The best thing about that, though, is that as a manager, you can actually CHANGE the situation - train the person, or replace them. As a lateral employee, your hands are tied. You have to endure poor performance by your peers and don't have a lot of recourse without managerial firepower. It's easy to become resentful if you're being called on to cover other people's jobs a lot. If everything is getting done, a lackadaisical manager won't lift a finger - there's no incentive to make it a more efficient process.
I'm all for culling the half-assers, but if morale is down across the whole team, it's the sign of a sick office culture. One manager might not be able to change the dynamic single-handed - but a manager would certainly have more power in that respect than a non-management employee.
On my own front - through the grapevine I heard that our board is divided on how to save our foundering company. I have SO MANY ideas on this! But if we try to communicate with the GM or anyone on the board, we get slapped.
Before giving up on this place, I would like to talk with our board president - but he could conceivably go to our GM and say, hey, who is this, why should I care what she thinks? I need to talk to someone confidentially. I wish they had a suggestion box where people could offer input anonymously without risking retribution.
I'm tempted to send the board president an anonymous note, but that would be beyond creepy. (PLEASE TELL ME THIS IS CREEPY SO I DON'T DO SOMETHING STOOPID LIKE THIS!)
I remember from your posts Kitten that you have had some job discontent also, so it may be a good thing to be looking out at different possibilities.
Thanks all for sharing your experiences...good read for a newish manager. I am going to for sure check out the Dave Ramsey podcasts. I live in the south so I'm used to being proselytized, and can tune out the bible-y parts, haha.
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