View Full Version : Will English/History major daughter regret it?
My daughter is majoring in English and minoring in History. Aargh. We joke that maybe she should get a psych minor to assure that she gets no job over 30,000 a year. (Sorry about the negativity). On the good side, she completed her sophomore year in a small private college (with a good financial aid package) and has had jobs at Safeway, the school box office, an intern with an environmental organization, and now she is working full time in the financial aid office at her school with quite a bit of responsibility. So, my dilemma is this: do I encourage/demand/beg that she get a minor in something that will be of more value like the economics minor she started? (she is pretty good at math) math? poli sci? She is the fastest reader I know and loves British History. Unless she is going to be a teacher (which she claims she isn't) or a college professor, I feel like she is shorting herself. She could probably RUN a financial aid office, but without a business/math/economics minor or something, then I feel like the tuition money we have contributed may not be worth it. Am I worrying excessively? Being controlling? Greedy? Should I leave it alone or encourage her to get another minor??? I just don't want her to get stuck working at minimum wage after 4 years of college.
As an employer, I would be more impressed by your daughter's wide range of work experience when looking for a new employee. You might help her identify those factors that would look great in a resume and explain she needs to develop a network of reference points for use later and networking.
Those that have difficulty appear to be the students who do nothing more than borrow money and go to school. The jobs she has will also develop her ideas about jobs and will give her more of an idea post college what she wants to do. Continue to point out that her work experience is as important as her schooling and needs as much development.
It does not sound like she will be looking at a minimum wage job later.
Nope, she's fine.
As an english major, she can find work in about 6 different areas of nearly any given company: human resources, marketing, technical/business communications/writing, quality assurance, customer relations/sales, or training (education/training for customers/clients). It really depends upon her personality and talents -- what sort of cultural element she'll fit into. From there, she'll be able to move toward management, which will move her up in terms of salary. And most of these positions start above $35k, so she'll be fine.
And that's not including things like working in advertising agencies, or newspaper/magazines, etc. Most of those jobs are more competitive, but definitely a possibility. Those are more toward the creative writing side of things -- assuming she's in writing and not literature. But that might not matter, either, depending upon her abilities and interests.
Both my husband and I were/are english majors. Sure, we're not ROLLING in cash, but we've done ok for ourselves overall. :)
I think the employment market in the U.S. has become even narrower than it was 20 years ago. So many universities offer very specialized degrees that many employers have begun to look for employees with those particular labels. For instance, while I think most people would agree that numerous degrees would provide someone with an educational background that would enable him or her to be successful in the fields that Zoebird mentions above, each of those fields now has a corresponding degree. As an engineer with a graduate degree, I find it nearly impossible to convince non-engineering employers that the type of problem-solving and optimization that is engrained in my thinking is applicable not only to designing gadgets or bridges but to making their processes, whatever they are, efficient and accurate. Everyone is too hung up on labels.
Most of my friends who graduated when I did who pursued majors in English, political science, and various other liberal arts programs have gone on to get MBAs.
That said - I can't offer advice on this. That is best done by career counselors who are most familiar with the current job market and the jobs obtained by recent graduates. Does she have any idea what she wants to do when she finishes college? Grad school? Peace corps? Start a business? Work in academia or a particular industry? Write?
There are a wide range of answers to this, ranging from the strictly positive to the categorically negative, all of which are legitimate in their own ways. The luxury that all answers enjoy is that their relevance and accuracy cannot be checked until the life in question has been lived, and even then the detractions from any of the answers could almost surely be readily discounted due to mitigating environmental factors.
I think, at this point, people need to view a college education as an end in itself, and with regard to its ephemeral impacts on the student. That way, the financial impact it has on what happens after is not of-issue. Looking at college a financial investment is hazardous, because there are very few circumstances where a positive ROI is effectively assured.
I can only speak as an employer, and only to say that in not one case -- ever -- have I cared diddly-squat about what someone's minor was.
An English major, on the other hand, is often someone who's learned how to write well, sometimes very well, and that's gold to me. Many of the other entrepreneurs I bump elbows with are English majors; it seems to be common in those going into business for themselves in my circles. And I'm a big believer in working for yourself if you can.
But I don't think a minor matters in the majority of small business situations in this country. The conversation to have is what she thinks she may want to do as a career (listen, don't judge). Encourage her to talk to people in that field, and she will find out for herself what sorts of supplementary education & minors might get her farther. I was a dual major in an English area and in technology, and it's served me well. I learned my business skills along the way. My parents too were very negative about my college choices, made jokes etc., and it definitely added to the rift between us. It sounds like she's doing fine on her own, learning how to be an adult, feeling her way forward with a variety of experiences and interests.
Minors do matter in some contexts. We hire software developers. A mathematics minor is not impressive. A Business minor is. It gives me a small amount of assurance (as small as every other word in the resume) that the candidate can think about the customer's use of our product, rather than just that his code compiles.
She sounds like the kind of person that is going to be just fine and it just may have little or nothing to do with her majors/minors/others. She is demonstrating the desire to achieve with her work history and the fact that she has been given more responsibility in her financial aid position means she must be doing things right. As an employer, especially of someone just out of school, that would get a lot of weight with me. Its perfectly fine to discuss all the options with the idea of helping her make the best decision for her future. Just keep in mind that both the decisions and the future are hers. Think of this, is the goal for her to end up rich or happy? (And yes, I know both would be nice.) Like everyone else I know plenty of people who do what they do for the money, but not that many who really enjoy it. Try to forget about things like future income potential and help her find something she really loves. If she finds that enough money will follow.
Minors do matter in some contexts. We hire software developers. A mathematics minor is not impressive. A Business minor is. It gives me a small amount of assurance (as small as every other word in the resume) that the candidate can think about the customer's use of our product, rather than just that his code compiles.
Bingo. Ditto for minors in foreign languages like Spanish, Mandarin, Japanese, or whatever may be most applicable to a line of work. Or associated minors, like biology for a chemistry major.
I think OP's daughter will do fine provided 1) she is flexible about what she will do for her careers (make no mistake, she and her cohort will have several); and 2) she is willing to learn continuously. I majored in journalism and ended up transitioning to working in IT when the job I had writing tech manuals stalled in a merger. I've never looked back. The ability to gather facts quickly and write clearly was very helpful throughout my career, which ended up paying me far more in broader opportunities than I would have received as a technical writer.
Daughter probably will have to work outside the confines of large-company Corporate America (where they will insist on the right labels and, often, the licenses). But there are many opportunities outside of those companies. One of them will be her passion.
Ditto for minors in foreign languages like Spanish, Mandarin, Japanese, or whatever may be most applicable to a line of work.
I would argue it is the skill and not the minor that makes the difference there. Have a minor in Japanese and can't speak it- worthless. Don't have any formal education and can speak well- valuable. Some degrees have value because they qualify you for a job- accounting, engineering, pharmacy, etc. Other are just indicative of some ability. I will be coaching my kids to get a job that creates job opportunities and using their free credits to explore what they like. But I would agree the minor in anything isn't worth much regardless.
Can I just start out by saying you people are amazing! What amazing, thoughtful answers. I feel so much better about her choices.I will ask questions without judging so much, quit making jokes, and encourage her to continue with the jobs and internships. I see now that she can do many things with her major/minor and probably the work in different areas will evolve given her great people skills and ability to read and write. I can't thank you all enough!
try2bfrugal
8-2-13, 1:04pm
Personally, I would not pay for college without a Plan B (minor, double major, masters degree, AA) of some marketable skill set.
I've decided that many of the desk type jobs that are high paying are not really healthy because they involve sitting all day and work in cubicles. So I am fine with our kids not wanting that kind of job (one does, one doesn't). But they have to have some career plan to be self supporting eventually, at least if they want us to pay for college / career training.
Others have already provided great responses and I have nothing to add other than I think that there is great value in a liberal arts degree. Once you learn how to think, then you can use your communication and management skills to get a job. I think E.I. (Emotional Intelligence) is one of the most important job skills, and you can't get a degree in that. However, you can learn how to think, if you really apply yourself to your English/History degree.
I would argue it is the skill and not the minor that makes the difference there. Have a minor in Japanese and can't speak it- worthless.
It's always the skill over the certification. I don't know, though, how one gets a minor in Japanese without being able to speak it pretty well. I suppose it could happen. But I would think the ability to do that makes any major earned at that same school suspect. Just what does a major or minor indicate about what one has learned?
I think a liberal arts degree and minor has value not only in the job market (others have suggested possible avenues of employment), and also will probably serve to enhance one's interests in the world around them and add to the quality of life experiences. Life is too short not to go after one's dreams.
You also have to be realistic with probabilities. Starting wages are probably going to be less than more employable technical fields and finding work suitable to her desires may be harder. Of course, she could land that perfect job or find her way in self-employment just fine and will not be destined for minimum wage jobs, but you have to think in terms of statistics and likely outcomes.
I would nudge her along with the idea of getting a double major and two degrees. One in her main area of interest and another in business or a technical field with practical employment statistics. I'd suggest that this will open doors of employment in her field of choice. (It's actually sort of what I did and speak from experience). Or to look beyond a B.A. to an MBA, law, or other graduate degree.
If a student has led a modest lifestyle, low starting wages are probably still a step up -- unless there are large loan payments that will begin.
It's a lot easier to go to grad school right away regardless of the field, as opposed to working for some time, living life and possibly getting married, having a child, etc etc.
I will just say that I worked in a college public relations/marketing department for several years, and the job started at $30K. When I left I was making $10K more a year than that.
Paige, my only concern about the situation is your daughter going to a private school with such a major. You say she has a good financial aid package, but what exactly does that mean? Is she getting scholarships/grants or lots of loans?
Many history and English majors end up going to law school and from there becoming judges and/or politicians. I had an equally dubious liberal arts track for my undergraduate years (Bachelor of Music in Vocal Performance with a second major in Anthropology, anyone?), but I've always been able to find reasonably paid work. Plus, learning the importance of having that ever-needed "side gig" to supplement the day job income has developed my entrepreneurial muscles fairly well. I don't feel scared, now, if a job evaporates, because I've learned to adapt quickly, be very flexible, and never to keep all my eggs in one basket.
It's always the skill over the certification. I don't know, though, how one gets a minor in Japanese without being able to speak it pretty well.
Most schools have a foreign language requirement, yet almost no one actually learns to speak the language well. I don't think a degree guarantees much knowledge, but some jobs, by rule or practice, require a certain type of degree to get hired. And its a one way street, if you have one of those degrees you can still do other things, but others without one are at a competitive disadvantage in your field. I don't think a minor does much other than signal an area of interest.
try2bfrugal
8-3-13, 1:07pm
Here is a link on the fatwallet forum with advice for someone who is posting that he has a BA in history and hasn't found a decent job in 2.5 years you might find of interest -
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/1230284/?start=0
This blog also has some good points on developing a rare and valuable skill vs. following your passion -
http://calnewport.com/blog/2013/04/10/in-choosing-a-job-dont-ask-what-are-you-good-at-ask-instead-what-are-you-willing-to-get-good-at/
I am okay with my kids studying history if that is what they want to do, but I think they can do that on their own dime, except for electives and required classes. Personally I am trying to get them to think more along the lines of job training and being self supporting in a lifestyle they are happy with for their formal education, at least the parts we are funding. I just read the following quote from the book, Hacking Your Education, which I borrowed from the library -
"You wasted $150,000 on an education for $1.50 in late fees at the public library?" - Matt Damon in Good Will Hunting
Note that the young man in the fatwallet article showed no development of anything other than borrowing money and attending school. Did he work or develop any ideas while in school? Did he network about careers while in school? Did he do anything but expect a great job right out of school? It sure did not sound like it.
Employers really want something other than the student occupied a seat during college. They are looking for work ethic, independence, imagination, experience, etc.
Tradd, she is paying for her expenses, food, and some of housing and we are footing the bill for tuition (and housing her first two years) and part of housing this year. She has just recently gotten a loan (first) for 4500.00 and she is going to be a junior. We are hoping to keep her loans under 10,000. I had a dream that she could get by with no loans, but we have another kid in college, so she will have to take loans. I guess that is another reason I am concerned, because we are contributing thousands of dollars to this degree.
Try2bFrugal--thanks for the articles. Both have good points. All would be good if she waltzed in here one day and declared that she had a double major in Accounting and Computer Science, but I won't hold my breath. Thanks for the eye-opening thoughts, everyone.
Tradd, she is paying for her expenses, food, and some of housing and we are footing the bill for tuition (and housing her first two years) and part of housing this year. She has just recently gotten a loan (first) for 4500.00 and she is going to be a junior. We are hoping to keep her loans under 10,000. I had a dream that she could get by with no loans, but we have another kid in college, so she will have to take loans. I guess that is another reason I am concerned, because we are contributing thousands of dollars to this degree.
$10K in loans is pretty darn reasonable these days. I had thoughts of $75K or some other exorbitant amount since it's a private school.
Most schools have a foreign language requirement, yet almost no one actually learns to speak the language well.
Maybe that's your experience. Again, students can get majors/degrees in fields in which they may not learn the subject so well in real-world terms. At least at the large public university I attended, fulfilling the foreign-language requirement did not take nearly the time and effort it did to achieve a minor in that language. Getting any minor without significant skill and interest would, I think, be far more effort and trouble than its value at the end.
Here is a link on the fatwallet forum with advice for someone who is posting that he has a BA in history and hasn't found a decent job in 2.5 years you might find of interest -
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/1230284/?start=0
This blog also has some good points on developing a rare and valuable skill vs. following your passion -
http://calnewport.com/blog/2013/04/10/in-choosing-a-job-dont-ask-what-are-you-good-at-ask-instead-what-are-you-willing-to-get-good-at/
I am okay with my kids studying history if that is what they want to do, but I think they can do that on their own dime, except for electives and required classes. Personally I am trying to get them to think more along the lines of job training and being self supporting in a lifestyle they are happy with for their formal education, at least the parts we are funding. I just read the following quote from the book, Hacking Your Education, which I borrowed from the library -
"You wasted $150,000 on an education for $1.50 in late fees at the public library?" - Matt Damon in Good Will Hunting
Hmmm, you know, a while back I'd attempted to argue that it's all well and good for people to "follow their passion," but running up large tuition bills wasn't the way to do it - or something along those lines. I got hammered for daring to suggest people get an education in something that might, essentially, crush their spirit.
Glad to see you're trying to get your kids thinking practically.
I'm a liberal arts major who has been steadily employed in my field since college and have been over 30K for a number of years now. I am not in academia. I will never make what technology, business or medicine folks do but I pay my bills and like my work.
First of all, Paige, $10,000 or so in debt is pretty reasonable even with a higher-risk major like English. I graduated with more than that when salaries were lower and never had trouble making payments and also paying living costs. It sounds like your daughter is hard-working and enterprising and should be able to make it work if anyone can.
If I were to give advice to someone considering a liberal-arts major or career, I would say this...Humanities studies and careers can be incredibly rewarding. But they are also higher-risk than, say, a technology job. You may not find a job right after graduation, or a full-time job in your field, ever. You need to be able to compete hard for what you want and make some sacrifices. For instance, you might not get to live in your ideal city. You should probably have a side hustle, and be prepared to live frugally. Do not rack up a lot of debt or monthly financial commitments early on. If you aren't suited for that kind of life, it's OK...everybody wants different things. But if you're OK with it, come on in and give it a try...
Humanities studies and careers can be incredibly rewarding. But they are also higher-risk than, say, a technology job. You may not find a job right after graduation, or a full-time job in your field, ever. You need to be able to compete hard for what you want and make some sacrifices. For instance, you might not get to live in your ideal city. You should probably have a side hustle, and be prepared to live frugally. Do not rack up a lot of debt or monthly financial commitments early on.
AmeliaJane, tech jobs are not that safe these days either. As software performance engineers, we were constantly "benchmarked" against outsource companies in India and, increasingly, China and Vietnam. Many hospitals have outsourced overnight X-ray reviews to radiologists in India, who are awake during those hours and -- bonus! -- much cheaper than U.S. radiologists. Anyone who has called a tech manufacturer's support line in the last few years knows what has happened to first-level support.
Technology moves quickly: accounting principles and teaching methods haven't changed much in the last 10 years, but computers and medicine sure have. And, increasingly, tech job-seekers have to possess exactly the right skills. It's not enough that you may know SQL Server really well and would have no trouble adapting to using MySQL. If "MySQL" is not on the resume as a "strength", your chance is lost. And if your resume indicates you're older than 45 or 50, good luck. Even if you know it, you're considered old-school and incapable of keeping up.
I have no problem at all with your advice. I think it's quite sound. But I would not say people in tech careers will have a much easier time of it these days.
ApatheticNoMore
8-4-13, 12:35pm
Tech careers are less risky at this exact moment in time than a liberal arts degree. But with the H1B increases in the new immigration bill if it passes (really ugly piece of legislation that), who doesn't see the death of tech as a sure career bet in the future?
But they'll always be *some* demand? Maybe, but I can't help but think that tech may be what manufacturing was a few decades ago - the writing is on the wall. So you want to get a degree that will maybe be good for the next 5 years or do you want more for your youthful investment of once in a lifetime time and money than maybe if you are lucky 5 years of good employment prospects until all the jobs get filled by high skilled immigrants? Of course I wouldn't expect that to dissuade anyone with a great passion for tech but for people just seeking a sure thing - haha - good luck with that! And yea I agree about needing to possess the exact right skills (you may very well get in without 5 years of having done the exact same thing until your so bored with it you want to smash your head into your computer - but you'll have to persuade - because doing the same thing is what they are looking for. That the situation actually amounts to assuming really smart people can't learn ... well yea - crazy ain't it?).
There are no absolute rules you won't get a job doing something different than you've done the last 5 years in tech, just as there are no absolute rules you can't get a really good job without a college degree period, or absolute rules that a liberal arts degree never pays off - people assume there are these kind of rules but we don't live in some absolute command economy where such rules could apply (it may be plenty crony capitalist in it's overall framework, but there are no absolute rules when it comes to hiring decisions - there are merely tendencies and individual employers). The tendency in tech is to push people to keep an extremely narrow focus, to prefer not hiring older people etc.. And yea the long term economic trends in tech mean the future is almost certain to be a considerably less favorable job market than the present.
AmeliaJane, tech jobs are not that safe these days either. As software performance engineers, we were constantly "benchmarked" against outsource companies in India and, increasingly, China and Vietnam.And Lebanon, Latvia, South Africa, Romania.
In my experience.
If you want a discipline to pursue that will truly offer a greater chance of staying well-employed throughout life, focus on healthcare.
try2bfrugal
8-4-13, 12:59pm
I am fine with our kids following a passion of history, English, woodworking, macrame, or stamp collecting but I wouldn't pay tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for them to do it. They can follow their passions at the library or meetup groups for free. I know too many parents and kids who spent $100 - $200K on degrees, sometimes from life savings or sometimes with loans, and the kids can't find jobs. In some cases now they can't get minimum wage jobs because they are over qualified.
I'd rather spend $100 - $200K on houses for them and teach them sustainable living skills. Then they can live inexpensively and mortgage free, get low stress jobs and follow their passions at work or in their free time.
We have one child that has a dream of having a fun but low paying, not in demand type job. We are fully supportive of him trying that first, but he also plans to have fall back degrees in a science major from schools where we can pay for the expected family contribution and students costs without either him or us going into debt.
Very true on technology careers carrying risk these days as well!
I do think humanities careers have changed a lot in 20 years. Even when I was in college we knew that an arts career (artist, musician, etc) would be challenging, require side work, not carry benefits, etc but it seemed like teaching, journalism, non-profit work etc were pretty steady plus as mentioned above, there were opportunities in business also. Now I would counsel a new-comer to be prepared for a lot of uncertainty and volatility. But as I say, that's not good or bad, it's just a matter of preference.
I do feel bad when I see new grads starting out with a ton of debt in my field (like 50K plus). That's going to be tough to overcome.
try2bfrugal
8-4-13, 2:30pm
We know families who have spent close to $200K on college and their kids can't get jobs. They do option 1. They could have done option 2. I don't see any career counselors at our kids school even remotely bringing up anything like option 2 as a career / life choice.
Option 1: Follow your passion by spending $200K on college and not be able to get a job in his / her desired field anyway.
Option 2: Spend $175K on an energy efficient house with edible landscaping, live mortgage free, spend $25K on a Prius, get an AA degree at a community college in a licensed trade or health care field, follow your passions in your free time for the rest of your life. Reach financial independence early because your costs are so low and you have no mortgage or student debt.
I have a PHD in English and got good teaching jobs in places I hated. I wish I had gone into something practical; I agree that healthcare and tech are good for the long haul, but the politics in hospitals can be really grinding. You could let her read our answers, if that's ethical, but I would leave the decision to her, including the financing of it. The community college in Santa Fe offers better career-future options than any of the several four-year colleges in town or nearby.
I remember a girlfriend mentioning to me that her father had a major in his low-paying passion (let's say basket weaving) and minored in chemistry. After his family came along and he realized basket weaving wasn't putting food on the table, he switched over to his chemistry minor, and got some sort of well-paying job at Dupont(?). I can't recall the details, but I did tell that story to a co-worker recently who's daughter was accepted to Princeton, and decided to major in Russian(!). She obviously had BIG concerns about that decision.
Seems like best chance of employment is for jobs that cannot be out-sourced: auto mechanic, highway repair, nursing, home remodeling, child care, cosmetology, park ranger, miner, etc.
Even with that, who knows where robotics are going, and how fast they'll be replacing even jobs like these?
As someone who doesn't think it's wise to try and determine what we should dedicate our entire lives to at such a young age, I would suggest she study whatever she's interested in now. Worry about the never-ending quest for a petfect job later.
ApatheticNoMore
8-14-13, 5:58pm
I remember a girlfriend mentioning to me that her father had a major in his low-paying passion (let's say basket weaving) and minored in chemistry. After his family came along and he realized basket weaving wasn't putting food on the table, he switched over to his chemistry minor, and got some sort of well-paying job at Dupont(?).
When was this? There was a time this was possible in the U.S. because chemistry was actually in demand. That was when the U.S. had manufacturing (and that was why it was in demand), that was a long time ago, it hasn't been true for several decades, so I get the impression it's not a good market for chemistry grads even with PhDs (and they'll probably get em cheap due to immigration too, for the tiny demand they need to fill). Biochemistry however, maybe, still I'd imagine they want more than a minor.
I can't recall the details, but I did tell that story to a co-worker recently who's daughter was accepted to Princeton, and decided to major in Russian(!). She obviously had BIG concerns about that decision.
Oh she'll be fine, first of all Ivy League probably opens doors that no state college graduate (and most college grads don't go to prestigious colleges) can even dream of. Second especially when added to the first point: hard foreign language, doesn't sound like a useless major to me.
Our primary focus is teaching DS entrepreneurial skills. Basically, there is always an underserved market that a person can find.
I have discovered three in the last three weeks that extends the reach of what we already do anyway. Luckily, two of them I can carry forward into the new incarnation in PGH; the other will benefit the new owner here (which is also great).
Beyond that, I have about 10 other ideas that I would love to get off the ground (though it would be tough to do now that we are moving -- such as a farmer's market here in our suburb, etc).
truthfully, the only reason these things don't happen is because people don't know how to get from idea to business. it's the entrepreneurial skills that allow you to see that. So, that's what we work on with DS (and ourselves).
iris lilies
8-15-13, 9:48am
... so I get the impression it's not a good market for chemistry grads even with PhDs (and they'll probably get em cheap due to immigration too, for the tiny demand they need to fill)...
My friend with a PhD in chemistry has been able to get several jobs in this city so it's worked for him. He works at a senior level in industrial research.
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