View Full Version : I have to agree with Australia's former deputy Prime Minister.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/23/20131976-us-gun-culture-is-corrupting-the-world-australia-ex-deputy-pm-says-after-okla-slaying?lite
I'm getting very sad for the U.S.
Note that US law already forbids the three minors who committed this crime from purchasing firearms. Or carrying them.
I believe murder is also against the law in Oklahoma.
Perhaps the problem lies more with uncovering how we manage to raise "teens" who decide killing someone for fun to relieve their boredom is just peachy....
Probably easier to blame guns though.
I agree Bae, that our culture is becoming really messed up. But the fact that people like this can so easily get guns should be considered also.
There are alot of things about our culture that are becoming very disconcerting. Its sick. But as long as everyone's personal rights are the main concern, I'm not sure we're going to change anything.
There are lots of factors that are making the U.S. sick. Sometimes I feel we're at the point of no return.
And like the former deputy prime minister said........he owns guns himself.
Its the violence everywhere in our culture..........movies, TV, and in reality. What's the deal???
I'm not sure its repairable. :(
Its sick. But as long as everyone's personal rights are the main concern, I'm not sure we're going to change anything.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident..." - our country from its foundation has intended to value the rights of the individual over the collective.
We have perhaps lost the concept of "responsibility" along the way. Where were the parents of these bored teens? What did they teach these murderous children?
I think we really need to look at the social issues that are part of this situation.
I think part of the reason is because we created this extended "teen" time where we don't allow them a real place in society. We create the boredom because we dont' provide them with specific opportunities for adult responsibilities (which would be supervised appropriately, of course).
As an example, when my GFIL was growing in a mining town (in a not great situation), when he was 14, he was already working (not in the mines). He was working sweeping the floor of the local company shop. At 16, he decided to leave home (abusive situation in his case), and by this point he'd gotten good at the numbers in the shop (book keeping), as well as managing stock. He moved into a larger town and got a job working as a shop assistant.
My FIL, mother and father all had some form of work from age 14 on -- whether it was helping out with parent's work or odd jobs (like baby sitting and lawn mowing, etc).
When I was a teen -- age 14 -- most of my friends and I were required to work and/or volunteer by our parents. We had summer jobs: baby sitting, dog walking, lawn mowing. When we could "legally" work at age 16, most of us worked in supermarkets, shops, restaurants/fast food joints, etc. My parents didn't want me to "work" -- so I volunteered in one of the poorest neighborhoods in our city, being involved in a summer camp program. I also helped clean and garden the place where this was housed. I did this outside of school, too, though most of my time there was during summers. My husband had a lawn and gardening business for the summers for 10 years (high school through graduate school).
I experience three kinds of teens: teens of parents who expect a lot of them, including work, etc; teens whose parents are completely hands off (which also tends to be among poorer families); and teens whose parents raise them in privilege and really don't expect much of them other than "normal teen stuff" like drinking, pranks and vandalism,a nd some will even turn a blind eye to rape. Shocking, but it is a social problem, IMO.
I am impressed with a LOT of teens. The majority of them are hard working, determined, and surprisingly mature.
But the ones who not -- nightmare. And definitely up to all kinds of antics. Murder is extreme, but . . . I think it's just part of this problem.
gimmethesimplelife
8-24-13, 6:26pm
Bae, I think you have hit on something here. This is one of my problems with the United States - I much more believe in the good of the collective over the rights of the individual. For better or worse, this is just how I am. I also think that the responsibility you speak of us having lost once served as a check and balance against the rights of the individual going too far - those days seem to be over for many, though, and I don't know how to get that back. But yeah, your post really made me open my eyes - call me Mr. Collective over the rights of the individual. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-24-13, 6:30pm
Zoebird - In the Arizona Republic recently (the Phoenix paper) there was an article that said that Phoenix had the highest percentage of disconnected teens of any major US city - I think the number was 22%. Disconnected in this case meaning not in school and not working - basically just not occupied in any way with typical activities/responsibilities of that age.
This is scary to me. That right there is a problem - we've got to get these kids constructively occupied somehow. But how, honestly? Rob
I think something like the civil service corps would be a great thing to reinstate because it not only takes care of national parks, roadworks and what not, but it definitely gets young people out and about and doing good, productive things. Yes, it's largely manual labor, but it's also communal, for the greater good of the people/society, and so on. And, it's underserved anyway.
And, you know, it would be a great way for them to develop skills of all kinds that could lead to jobs later in life or into more vocational training and so on.
There are lots of factors that are making the U.S. sick. Sometimes I feel we're at the point of no return.
It will be interesting to see if there is a tipping point somewhere in the national conversation. The GZ/TM incident obviously focused a lot on race, but I've see something of a backlash recently where some people have said, in effect, fine- if people want to talk about race and crime then let's look at the real problems.
But my guess is we still lack the national character to tackle the issue of violent subculture head on because it is so intertwined with other painful angles. So the problem will just drag out indefinitely until we find a leader who has the heart and skill to cut through the barriers while not cutting off any of the key constituencies.
But my guess is we still lack the national character to tackle the issue of violent subculture head on because it is so intertwined with other painful angles. So the problem will just drag out indefinitely until we find a leader who has the heart and skill to cut through the barriers while not cutting off any of the key constituencies.
Yossarian, what are those issues of the violent subculture, in your opinion? What are those painful angles? Would be interested in your take on that.
i don't know if it will take a single leader. I think it will take a more "grassroots" approach, honestly.
Note that US law already forbids the three minors who committed this crime from purchasing firearms. Or carrying them.
I believe murder is also against the law in Oklahoma.
Perhaps the problem lies more with uncovering how we manage to raise "teens" who decide killing someone for fun to relieve their boredom is just peachy....
Probably easier to blame guns though.
I'm with Bae.
And as for how "easy" it is to get a gun, I'll illustrate my experience in recently having purchased my first handgun.
I bought it off Gunbroker.com (think eBay for firearms). The seller was a gunshop in another state. It had to ship to a FFL (holder of a federal firearms dealer license) near me, whom I paid for the "transfer." This is federal law. They would not ship until my FFL sent them a copy of his license. However, I'm also dealing with Illinois law, which stipulates a 72 hour waiting period for handguns (24 hours for long guns). The waiting period begins when you make an agreement with the purchaser for the firearm. I went and filled out the paperwork for my background check the day after I purchased the pistol online. Due to some delays inherent dealing with people over email and shipping time, I didn't pick up my handgun until one week after I'd bought it online.
So if you consider that "too easy" to get a gun, that has me scratching my head.
Note: in the state of Illinois, you have to have a FOID (Firearms Owner ID) card before you can even buy ammo. This was instituted back in the late 60s. So I essentially have two background checks.
But note that the "bad guys" won't bother with any of this and will get their guns & ammo illegally, regardless of the gun control in place.
Also because of my work, I've been background checked/fingerprinted by DHS (Customs & Border Protection) (the FBI is involved with that one, as well) and a separate TSA background check. I've been very thoroughly checked out.
Yossarian, what are those issues of the violent subculture, in your opinion? What are those painful angles?
During one of our last debates here involving guns I did some research on gun violence. People talk about murder rates, but what became apparent to me is that the overall rate really doesn't tell the right story. To get the full picture you have to look at the distribution of the violence. Sure, you get a few headline cases in random places, but the vast majority of gun murders are committed in some very small parts of our society. On the other hand, there are vast swaths of the country that are brimming with guns but that have very few gun murders. I can't recite any statistical calculations, but it was anecdotally obvious to me the areas with high gun murder rates have many other social problems as well, from drug use to youth pregnancy to unemployment to low graduation rates etc.
Correlation is not causation, but this is one of the times I think you have to give a nod to common sense and assume these issues are related until someone proves otherwise. Certain part of our society have just become dysfunctional. They are broken, from the schools to the family unit to the local economies to politics. And IMHO it is a mostly a matter of a self-perpetuating dysfunctional culture that keeps these problems as acute and concentrated as they are.
The problem of course is that many of the people stuck in these horrible conditions are black or other minorities. So if you try to take a critical look at what's not working in these communities, it all too easily gets mistranslated into a racial issue. It's not of course, but that's a hard conversation. People get defensive. But we have to find a way to address the dysfunction notwithstanding the racial distribution of the problems or the problems aren't going to get any better. And who do you think suffers the most from that?
Have to chime in. In Toronto, Ontario there have been a number of recent shootings and almost invariably it is the black teen youngsters in subsidized housing projects at Jane and Finch. They interview the families after the shootings and the anguish is hard to watch. How does a family protect its youngsters when the social forces of that time of life (the teens) trigger so many problems?
Some individuals make a real dent in the problem but they can only reach a certain number. It is more than the US that is facing some of these issues, Cathy.
Google "thug culture", and you'll find plenty of discussion of part of the problem. It's not a race thing, it's a culture thing.
I googled 'thug culture' and was dismayed to see the ads that came up when I followed any suggested links. Ugh!
gimmethesimplelife
8-25-13, 10:27pm
As I have said before, my issue with guns is mainly my fear of their getting into less than stable hands. I have mentioned before that once my father in a drunken rage put a gun up to my mother's head - this was in 1974 - and there was this split second that seemed to be an eternity where it wasn't clear what was going to happen next. Whenever I hear any debate about gun laws or gun control, my mind goes back to that moment and I can't seem to shake it. Forever I will be anti-guns and very much for gun control. Interesting that I should live in a gun culture state, Arizona.....I know other people here who are also anti guns, it's not quite like the media portrays it here. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
8-25-13, 10:35pm
I though this was going to be about Australia, I clicked it thinking, well I don't really know much about Australian politics but let's see what's going on in Australia ... oh another gun thread.
I don't think we have too many rights, there's not an Amendment left standing at this point, besides the second, and I guess something about quartering soldiers :). Unless all you mean is the right to make money by hook or by crook and never be punished even if it is by crook. Well that's not what most civil libertarians actually mean by rights.
I was a bored teenager. I didn't work because dad didn't want us to. In my senior year I only went to school part time (because I'd done all my courses already even in the college track program). I practiced instruments hours a day, wrote really bad poetry, got so stinky drunk I passed out once, was sometimes self-destructive, sometimes drove badly, read, and though a lot about big questions in that teenage way. I'm not sure it served me well in life as I didn't become that professional musician (I should have been more practical of course), but I didn't commit a murder either - much less commit one because I was bored - geez! (though I did find reading Crime and Punishment at that age deeply psychologically disturbing :0! - really though they feed that stuff to young vulnerable nervous systems?!?)
I think if we have a civil service they should be paid, at least minimum wage, if people work they should get paid period (yes fine true volunteering is different - but working for a boss and stuff you should get paid) and it should be voluntary.
Due to some delays inherent dealing with people over email and shipping time, I didn't pick up my handgun until one week after I'd bought it online.
So if you consider that "too easy" to get a gun, that has me scratching my head.
not to cast any aspersions upon anyone, but as we know Bae owns a few, his daughter or a friend of his daughter's *could* get ahold of a gun and ammo and go do something ridiculous with it like kill someone out of boredom. of course, I think bae does a good job with his daughter and she probably falls into the category of "teens too involved to get bored" category. :D
The real issue in various urban areas is the accessibility of illegal guns -- which I don't know too much about but we do know that a black market exists -- and these youngsters could also simply be taking guns from various locations (legally or illegally owned), and then go and use these guns to fight boredom in stupid ways.
None of this is about how easy/difficult it is for someone to legally get a gun, but really the question should focus on "how easy is it to get a gun illegally?"
I don't really know. I mean, we have a cultural notion (via tv/movies) that it's relatively easy to buy a gun that way (illegally).
I think if we have a civil service they should be paid, at least minimum wage, if people work they should get paid period (yes fine true volunteering is different - but working for a boss and stuff you should get paid) and it should be voluntary.
I got the name wrong. It was the Civilian Conservation Corps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps). It employed single young men ages 18-25 while providing housing, clothing, training, work, food, and a monthly stipend (of which $5 spending money per month was given to them, and $25 sent to their families.
Obviously, the whole thing would have to be adjusted and open to women, but I think it would be a great way to revitalize the nation. And, I think if we opened it up to 16 yr olds, it might do a world of good.
My friend from AK started working with national parks (because they are hard up for people up there) when she was 16, and i think it was deeply formative for her. She's one of those people whom you trust with your life.
I got the name wrong. It was the Civilian Conservation Corps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps). It employed single young men ages 18-25 while providing housing, clothing, training, work, food, and a monthly stipend (of which $5 spending money per month was given to them, and $25 sent to their families.
Obviously, the whole thing would have to be adjusted and open to women, but I think it would be a great way to revitalize the nation. And, I think if we opened it up to 16 yr olds, it might do a world of good.
My friend from AK started working with national parks (because they are hard up for people up there) when she was 16, and i think it was deeply formative for her. She's one of those people whom you trust with your life.
Calif has long had a Conservation Corp for youths - both male and female working and learning together. They are often trained as firefighters amongst other jobs and are currently involved in Calif fighting our many wildfires. I think many other states have something similar.WWW.CCC.ca.gov
not to cast any aspersions upon anyone, but as we know Bae owns a few, his daughter or a friend of his daughter's *could* get ahold of a gun and ammo and go do something ridiculous with it like kill someone out of boredom. of course, I think bae does a good job with his daughter and she probably falls into the category of "teens too involved to get bored" category. :D
Aspersions.... and yet you mention me, my kid, and her friends.
I suppose my daughter *could* go get the cutting torch out of my machine shop, and cut open one of the gun vaults, might take her a few hours... Probably be quicker for her to make one from scratch while she's out there.
I like to think I raised her well enough that she wouldn't go killing people out of boredom.
I'm also pretty sure that given her AP scores in chemistry and physics, and her access to my HAZMAT educational materials, she could wipe out half a city if she had a mind to...
Bae,
No doubt, that science is dangerous stuff! :D
That being said, if you did read my statement, I did assert that you do a good job and your daughter wouldn't do that.
The point of it was to assert three things:
1. legal gun access really isn't where this question is answered.
2. illegal access is really what should be discussed.
3. kinds of illegal access are part of the picture.
I see four kinds of illegal access:
1. kids who live in homes where there are guns legally owned by parents (sandy hook -- admittedly, this is an adult shooter);
2. kids who live in homes where there are guns illegally possessed by parents or other adults in the household;
3. kids who acquire weapons through an 18 + yr old who legally acquires it and gives it to them (colombine case)
4. the black market which some kids may have access to through various unknown means.
So the real issue is about this illegal possession -- how they acquire it.
My grandfather never kept his guns in a safe; my mother and uncle had access, even though my grandfather kept them "up high." My friend, a hunter, has a safe, too. his 16 yr old has access to this safe because "her" guns are kept there, and when they pack up to go hunting, she often gets the guns out of the safe. :) Thankfully, like your daughter, none of them are or were bored/disengaged enough to do something so violent, ridiculous, and stupid.
Now, the other three? there's hardly any way to account for it. And, so far, I'm not finding any reports that the parents of the teens in this shooting had legal guns in their home.
Also, the parents do assert that the kids are in a "wanna be gang" in one article. Pointing to that 'thug life' thingy.
And to be sure, I really do think that we should reinstutite gun training and rifle clubs into schools. I think the more people know about and respect guns, the less cavalier about them they'll be -- teens included.
Calif has long had a Conservation Corp for youths - both male and female working and learning together. They are often trained as firefighters amongst other jobs and are currently involved in Calif fighting our many wildfires. I think many other states have something similar.WWW.CCC.ca.gov (http://WWW.CCC.ca.gov)
cool.
Miss Cellane
8-26-13, 8:15am
not to cast any aspersions upon anyone, but as we know Bae owns a few, his daughter or a friend of his daughter's *could* get ahold of a gun and ammo and go do something ridiculous with it like kill someone out of boredom. of course, I think bae does a good job with his daughter and she probably falls into the category of "teens too involved to get bored" category. :D
The real issue in various urban areas is the accessibility of illegal guns -- which I don't know too much about but we do know that a black market exists -- and these youngsters could also simply be taking guns from various locations (legally or illegally owned), and then go and use these guns to fight boredom in stupid ways.
None of this is about how easy/difficult it is for someone to legally get a gun, but really the question should focus on "how easy is it to get a gun illegally?"
I don't really know. I mean, we have a cultural notion (via tv/movies) that it's relatively easy to buy a gun that way (illegally).
The Newtown shooter used guns legally purchased and owned by his mother. She took him to shooting ranges to use those guns. Then he used one of them to kill her.
The ready availability of guns in the US is a part of the problem. The real problem, one that has no easy, band-aid solution, is why and how people get to the point where they think killing someone is fun, or they get to the point where they think killing someone is the answer to their problems.
Add in that many people who own guns don't really know how to use them and aren't trained in emergency response.Take the movie theater shooting last year. I'd have no problem sitting in a movie theater next to an off-duty cop with a gun, or a Special Forces military guy with a gun, or even Bae--I'd expect these people would keep their heads and not fire their weapons until and unless they could shoot at the shooter. But my co-worker, who brags about how safe he is now that he owns a gun? Heck, I've seen him fall to pieces when the alarm goes off for a scheduled fire drill at work. He drops things, panics, heads out the wrong exit (i.e. the main exit on the other side of the floor instead of the fire exit 20 feet from his desk). I would want to be very, very far away from him if he was carrying and any sort of emergency occurred. The chances of getting accidentally shot by him would be huge.
This society has many things that have brought us to this point..........too many freedoms to people who don't deserve them or can't handle them, too much "give me your tired, your poor, etc.....", too much capitalism, too much greed, too much procreation of children who aren't taken care of, etc., etc., etc., etc.
I honestly feel that we have, for the most part, too much freedom to do anything we want. We want to be fair to criminals, we want to be humane and fair to people who are not humane or fair, we want to say yes to everyone's wants. We allow people who have no other agenda than to put money in their pockets, while convincing the masses that we need all sorts of crap, and that what we need (as far as constant growth and development) is always more important than a quality of life, or taking care of our eco system. We have no foresight.
The constitution is good for some things, but doesn't really deal with the society of today.
How can we work together, when everyone is going in a different direction? When everyone wants their own demands met. When everyone demands to have their own idea of freedom? .........and they can use the constitution to say "What I want is guaranteed!!!"
Everyone is treated equally under the constitution...................and that perhaps is getting us into alot of trouble. People AREN'T equal. Some people can raise good kids, some can't. Some people can take care of their earth, some can't. Some people can handle guns, some can't. Some people can be trusted, some can't. Some people are good, some aren't.
But we keep saying we have to treat everyone equal. As far as we keep doing that and don't finally come out and say "Everyone ISN'T equal" and deal with that fact, we will continue to keep having our culture headed down the toilet.
i don't know if it will take a single leader. I think it will take a more "grassroots" approach, honestly.
I think we put way too much faith in electing the right leader or political party. What seems to be required are systems changes from the ground up. Treating the root cause instead of the symptoms.
I concur that we do have a violent culture - I grew up in a different era and am continually dismayed by the open violence and crassness (is that a word?) portrayed on mainstream media now. It worries me that over time I am no longer shocked by violent acts. And I think that is what is happening to all of us. After all, we have witnessed over a decade now of killing in foreign wars and whispered hardly a protest.
But yet........when some people try to censor/ban those incredibly violent video games that our youth "enjoy"........people start screaming "our constitutional rights!" Personal freedoms always trump the safety/health of the country.
iris lilies
8-26-13, 10:54am
But yet........when some people try to censor/ban those incredibly violent video games that our youth "enjoy"........people start screaming "our constitutional rights!" Personal freedoms always trump the safety/health of the country.
ahem, personal freedom IS the basis of the health of this country.
ahem, personal freedom IS the basis of the health of this country.
Up to a point.....then it starts to fall apart.
ahem, personal freedom IS the basis of the health of this country.
Up to a point.....then it starts to fall apart.
I disagree that personal freedom causes things to fall apart, it's the lack of personal responsibility that screws up the works.
I disagree that personal freedom causes things to fall apart, it's the lack of personal responsibility that screws up the works.
Exactly. +1
We seem to have less and less personal freedom (not to mention privacy), so Utopia is clearly at hand!
Agree totally with Alan and Gregg on the personal responsibility thing.
Any attempt to address the thug culture seems to result in screams of "racist!" in that the thugs are primarily black and Hispanic, to a lesser degree.
Even the one of the black community's own supposed leaders, Jesse Jackson, could only muster outrage enough to say that this shooting.was "frowned upon." Yet, he went full bore up in arms about the Zimmerman/Martin shooting.
But if you don't have the responsibility, then having the "rights" can cause more trouble.
How do you make people more responsible? At this late stage in the game, you can't force them........except by taking some of their rights away. The worst irresponsible people go to jail.....but there's a massive amount of people who don't reach that point of acting illegally, but are still at the point of having a really negative effect on the country. Our prisons are already so filled to the max that they have to let some out, who are in for lesser offenses. I don't know what the answer is. I just have this sinking feeling that its going to be fairly impossible to correct it.
I'm not very good at articulating my feelings. Tradd.......that's sort of what I'm talking about. We tiptoe around on eggshells, not to offend certain people because we're trying to be politically/constitutionally correct, when we should be coming down like a ton of bricks on them. I'm talking about any criminals of any race. We tolerate way too much, because we've got to be fair/unbiased.
ApatheticNoMore
8-26-13, 1:44pm
We seem to have less and less personal freedom (not to mention privacy), so Utopia is clearly at hand!
+1
It isn't all or nothing you know.
It isn't all or nothing you know.
What freedoms would you allow us, Cathy?
We tolerate way too much, because we've got to be fair/unbiased.
I agree that's what we do, but in reality there's nothing fair or unbiased about about holding people to lower expectations due to their race, gender or social status. If you're correct that the social fabric of this country is going to hell in a handbasket, and I think you are, I think the root cause is several generations of progressive ideology.
ApatheticNoMore
8-26-13, 1:59pm
I dont' think it's all or nothing, I just don't think the narrative of more and more freedom in general holds together (or at least not in terms of the government, if you are talking general social attitudes rather than politics - culture not governement - at least it's a stronger case, since ok the culture may be more tolerant in general).
The prisons that are releasing people because of overcrowding for instance, yes it exists. What also exists is the phenomena of for profit prisons, where the prison is guaranteed a certain amount of occupancy. So regardless of whether crime goes up or down, even if it went dramatically down (and that has been the trend), even if a bunch of things were legalized (I mean weed for instance), the prison system would still have to lock up a certain number of people. So we're randomly letting people go do to budget constaints or we're randomly locking people up due to profit constraints? Maybe many of the people let go were never genuinely dangerous in the first place.
Alan......what do you mean about progressive ideology?
Alan......what do you mean about progressive ideology?
The soft bigotry of low expectations coupled with the popular desire to assign victim status to those same groups based on nothing more than their race, gender or social status.
there is a case (http://www.wfsb.com/story/23256775/boy-accused-of-killing-caregiver-after-playing-video-game) of an 8 yr old shooting a caregiver after playing a violent video game.
now, people will argue that it's not about video games. others will argue that it's not about guns. I think it's about video games AND guns.
In this instance (this case), I see two problems: a child too young playing a video game that is too old for him; a child who has access to a gun (assume legally owned by parents). To me, these are "bad parenting" practices.
So the responsibility is not with the society to stop the video games or regulate the guns per se, but rather with the parents for not taking personal responsibility for the appropriate way to raise their child.
Though, they also have the freedom to choose how to raise their child, but they certainly did not set up their child for success.
But what do we do when way too many parents aren't parenting, and its affecting the whole society?
Well, I think a lot of that is grass roots as well -- call it a community based approach.
One of the things that's interesting about NZ is that there is a strong parenting culture. It's not homogenous, but it's interesting how much support exists.
It starts out with good maternity care, where midwives provide the primary care (you can opt to go with a doctor if you wish, but most people stick with the midwife. And you can do hospital or home birth with that midwife). Prior to birth, there are a lot of classes on different family and parenting needs, and these often are formed into "antenatal groups" -- or "due date clubs." Women due around the same time take these classes together, and then often become an on-going social network for these women.
From there, after the birth, the midwife continues to visit the mother and the "due date club" continues to meet. In addition, there are a lot of other meetings available for moms based on their own parenting interests -- breast feeding, baby french, whatever. Most of these classes and groups are free -- there's a huge network of volunteer moms who lead and plan these groups, and a lot of churches and community centers just donate their space to them, so there aren't really any overheads for the clubs.
After the midwife is no longer visiting, they mothers have their well baby visits with Plunket nurses. These visits include normal check-up things, but also include information on various topics. Plunket nurses call the women in their 'roll sheet' (or whatever it's called) each week between well-baby visits to ask if the parents have any questions or concerns, and of course, a parent can call the plunket nurse at any time. This is free of charge.
Plunket also provides low cost child care on a sliding scale (i've been to many plunket fundraisers), which allows parents to work or can provide support and relief to parents. Plunket also provides parenting classes of various sorts and has many social activities for children and families -- helping parents find means of support when they are navigating parenting.
In addition, there's a situation called "PlayCentre." Playcentre was designed during the world wars, when women were home with children but largely isolated. It is an community-based, pre-school educational center. it works nearly entirely on volunteers and fund raisers, with some modest government grants. The basic situation is that parents volunteer to run the center with each other. You volunteer 1 day a week there as a leader/guide, and then you can leave your child there for 2 play centre days. They run sessions similar to kindergarden (morning and afternoon sessions), and generally you have X number of parents "on duty."
In order to be able to leave your children at playcentre, you have to go through their training. There are many levels of training -- the highest level gets you to the administrative/directional elements -- but most parents just go through the basic training. This training covers play centre's philosophy and pedagogical methods, but also covers things to help parents (since play center parents do spend a lot of time together chatting and so on). So, as a play centre leader you might be called upon by another parent to provide advice or insight, which usually falls along the lines of playcentre's core philosophies.
The really amazing thing about playcentre is that it is entirely free, but it is customary to make a gold coin donation per session your child attends -- so $2. Most families attend 2-3/wk, so they might donate $6/wk for this great educational and social opportunity. And this program is really well loved in NZ.
In addition, there are several free publications that are all about children and families. One outlines all of the activities available to children and families (comes out monthly), and another focuses on parenting methods and ideologies. There is one that is entirely focused on the maori and pacific population as well.
Now, there is some government oversight of playcentre and plunket because they 1. receive government funding, but also 2. they are dealing within administrative ministry's particular purviews -- education and health respectively). But overall, it's mostly a matter of paperwork, and not specific mandates or programs (ie, if you run an educational program for children -- which we do -- then it must meet ministry of education guidelines. easy done, the curriculum is widely published. if ever they audit you and/or you seek some form of government funding, then they'll want to make sure that the program matches. It's not terribly difficult.).
In school settings, as well, not only are there all of the normal school things, but there are lots of parents nights which are not just "come and see the school" but opportunities to understand child development and their unique care needs at different ages.
The whole idea of all of this is to really give parents information and resources so that they can make positive choices.
And overall, I see that this is taken up in every aspect of society. I've been to groups that have rich and poor involved -- it's like it truly doesn't matter how much money you do or don't have in these groups. It's for everyone, and it's really designed that way and it functions that way.
What I find is that instead of the disconnect and "mommy wars" that we have in the US -- we have connected, engaged parents and families who are growing and learning together, supporting each other, and working hard to find a way forward.
And another thing that NZ has is some great organizations -- non governmental organizations -- that help people find ways to communally solve problems. Yesterday, a friend reported on facebook that a neighboring child was "smacked" (illegal in this country). But instead of calling the police or child protective services, a person recommended an NGO that could advise on how to approach and/or help the family if s/he felt it was safe. In the alternative, a trained mediator frm that organization would go to visit the family and see if they needed more services or support -- to really discern what the situation is.
Typically, if the child is in danger, then they are mandatory reporters. But it's a way to keep neighbors from being "bad guys" who are "calling the cops" to being "helpful members of your community who want you and your family to be happy." And they do a good job of that, too.
It also keeps the costs down in terms of child protective services at the governmental level -- they aren't handling every call that might be solved by simply providing more support to stressed out parents.
In the case of my friend, she discovered that her neighbors are very young (20 and 22), and they just weren't coping well. She just extended support to them, told them to come over and get help if they felt stressed, and she also taught them a few mommy tricks that she knew for children of that age (i think the child was 2-3?). They were new to the area, he had a new job/life, and far from family. She invited them to join her at her play centre, and basically it set the family on the right path (they were involved with both family and play center before moving to the Big Smoke).
Now, these organizations do have specific philosophical bents to them, but the real thing that they offer is support for families. This tends to create a better society, where parents are encouraged by each other to be "good parents" and they can learn methods of being good parents in fun, social settings where everyone in enriched.
Yes, there are social problems here too -- child neglect, abuse, and poverty that deeply affects children -- but I think that these systems are one of the many ways that NZ works to prevent these sorts of situations.
" ... support for families ..." - that is huge.
Another interesting program I heard about (maybe NPR?) was a focus on an urban area's elementary and middle-school kids in terms of training to anticipate and resolving simple conflicts. A few years of this made a big difference in the violence rate in the h.s. and neighborhood area.
I'm convinced there's a lot of casual unplanned violence that can be prevented when conflict resolution techniques are taught to youth and reinforced so it becomes second-nature in their brains.
The soft bigotry of low expectations coupled with the popular desire to assign victim status to those same groups based on nothing more than their race, gender or social status.
I know of no progressive person who says it's okay to lower expectations of someone based on their race, gender, or social status.
What progressives do say is that individuals don't succeed or fail in a vacuum - we all operate in society whose policies can affect success or failure. E.g., Zoebird's explanation of the NZ support of pregnant women, infants and children. Huge difference vs. U.S.
" ... support for families ..." - that is huge.
One of my personal hobby horses is the tremendous importance of *early* childhood education. A few hours and dollars spent early on can produce a hugely amplified return over the life of the child.
http://www.highscope.org/content.asp?ContentId=219
I find it shameful that our nation wastes so much human capital.
Imagine being a poor inner-city youth, engaging with today's educational system...
http://missriki.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/kozol-the-shame-of-the-nation.jpg
Jonathan Kozol is worth reading; he presents a view we don't often see. A depressing view, to be sure--of how crushing poverty is soul-deadening and difficult to escape.
iris lilies
8-27-13, 9:29pm
One of my personal hobby horses is the tremendous importance of *early* childhood education. A few hours and dollars spent early on can produce a hugely amplified return over the life of the child.
http://www.highscope.org/content.asp?ContentId=219
I find it shameful that our nation wastes so much human capital.
Imagine being a poor inner-city youth, engaging with today's educational system...
http://missriki.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/kozol-the-shame-of-the-nation.jpg
So what are your thoughts about the HeadStart program?
What progressives do say is that individuals don't succeed or fail in a vacuum - we all operate in society whose policies can affect success or failure.Yes, and our progressive society has promoted failure as a means of ensuring dependence.
So what are your thoughts about the HeadStart program?
My charitable answer would be that the Head Start people should look at how the High/Scope Perry Preschool people, and other successful programs, do things, as Head Start doesn't seem to produce similarly-successful outcomes, even though buckets of money are spent.
Yossarian
8-27-13, 11:08pm
What progressives do say is that individuals don't succeed or fail in a vacuum
One of the marginal talking heads I heard on the radio said something however inadvertent that was quite profound: education is a partnership between parents and teachers.
Quite true based on my experience. It's unfair to expect teachers to produce the intended results if they don't have the partners they need.
I think one of the big problems with the US culture that I see is there's a lot more community isolation than there is community building.
You see, *most* of these various services (outside of the medical care system ones/pregnancy) are *volunteer based, community organized, non-profits* that have some modest government oversight (based on what they provide) and might have some government grant funding.
The problem that I see from both sides is the idea is to continue to tax-and-spend, just how and where to spend.
In my mind, I think we need to forget about the government and start forming up our own community needs. See a need -- get together and get it started.
Playcentre started during WWII -- as far as I understand it -- entirely as a community created and driven organization with modest government funding, largely meeting in community halls and the like when they started. By 1948, it became a full fledged federated organization. People just DID it.
I think that a lot of americans spend a lot of time navel gazing and in-fighting about which political party or individual will "solve" these various problems. I don't think that's realistic or reliable. If we want better early childhood education, then perhaps we can create a community organization that provides good early childhood education. Maybe we can go to granting organizations (including the government) and get it rolling. If we want peace-studies and conflict resolution courses for kids ages 8-12, then we can probably figure out how to create a curriculum and get it out there in the schools or in other community organizations and groups.
I'm just saying we don't have to wait for some government action for things to happen. We can just get out there and get the ball rolling. Yes, it's difficult and probably frustrating and it's not going to add up to much in the short term. But guess what? Perhaps in 10 years, it will be something.
I don' tknow. I can't solve all the problems or whatever. But I think that if there is a problem, we should probably "muck in" and work together to fix it rather than simply waiting for the right leader/party to do it for us.
I don' tknow. I can't solve all the problems or whatever. But I think that if there is a problem, we should probably "muck in" and work together to fix it rather than simply waiting for the right leader/party to do it for us.
There is a variety of other situations in which that thinking could be beneficial as well. To bad our society has lost the ability to think/act independent of the government.
Yes, and our progressive society has promoted failure as a means of ensuring dependence.
A nonsensical Faux news talking point.
A nonsensical Faux news talking point.
LOL, and so it goes..;)
ApatheticNoMore
8-28-13, 3:05pm
I don' tknow. I can't solve all the problems or whatever. But I think that if there is a problem, we should probably "muck in" and work together to fix it rather than simply waiting for the right leader/party to do it for us.
There is a variety of other situations in which that thinking could be beneficial as well. To bad our society has lost the ability to think/act independent of the government.
I don't see it as a lost ability. Because there's always people involved in those types of things!!! But it's true if all mothers could afford to be stay at home or something like that there would be a set of people with a lot more time to devote to community activities than currently - so if one wants to get all nostalgic for the past there is that.
Time *is* a critical limit and bottleneck for most people! Everyone's is scarce. You'll get some volunteer time out of people and those who give too much time will hit a hard wall of burnout plus actual *need* to allocate some time to stuff that actually pays you know that money thing one needs to live (and as a generality: parents of young kids have much less time to devote to community stuff than those that aren't). Anyway when you reach the limits of non-paid volunteering, you'll need funding. But many non-profits that pay their workers already exist as well - the non-profit concept is as mainstream as can be right?
Maybe it's better in New Zealand, so then why is that? Just awareness? (ok I don't think the thinking is *mainstream* fwiw) Or structural factors? American society is a pretty tough nut to crack structurally (the long commutes, the long hours, the inequality etc.).
Maybe it's better in New Zealand, so then why is that? structural factors?
That. As generally turns out to be the case with these sorts of comparisons.
Structural factors are a part of it, but there are national organizations that provide support across multiple states and distances. Also, small towns tend to do well to create services for themselves that they need -- whereas in larger cities, it's tougher overall.
There's also the structural factor of longevity. When Playcentre started, it was new. Now it's just part of how the world works here. The socialized system of medicine has been around a long while, too -- which provides that sort of maternity care that I described. All of these are structures, too.
But they came about because the folks here were *isolated*. They are still isolated in many ways, and so they created these things for themselves -- just like small town americans did and do.
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