View Full Version : people/parents accept this?
I guess I am old fashioned or conservative or something. I lived for over a decade in a hippy town and have been vegie for years but I am really strict on some things.
So the story of my kids kinda aside, I got one moved out and am working on another who needs to move. I need counseling or other help to get her actually out but that is another story, basically some of the mental issues are making it so she does not seem to understand and I need help to find more effective ways. However what has shocked the crap out of me is the response of other adults who have had reason to know what is going on. First of all a fair number of adults figure everyone smokes pot. Um no, And then I thought we had the boyfriend issue handled but I saw him sneaking out this morning. I have been checking the neighborhood for his car but at least last night he was here against my rules. I was talking to my friend who has a similar issues with her son and her opinion was that since I knew they were sleeping together I might as well let them do this in our house. H** no!
Okay when did I miss the message that if your kids keep on doing things you have said no to then it is time to cave in. When do I care more about what my kids think of me than my standards? And when is it that the overall society thinks it is okay for alcohol to be at my house with underage kids in my house, pot not even hidden and a boyfriend sleeping in my daughter's bedroom! I am in shock, (yes I am dealing with this, and getting help because they just got sneakier) . These things were kinda cool and I thought were acceptable when I was younger (of course not at my parents house) but now I am a grownup and I need to act like the parent. Please if you are a parent who holds the line tell me.
We don't "hold the line" in our household. We set expectations, early on, and people meet them, and everyone is more-or-less happy.
I could say 'set expectations' as well, that is how I talked to my daughter about the last thing. I guess I am just surprised at not so much the idea that other families have different standards but that after my child has been sneaking to do something against my household expectations I am encouraged to let it go rather than keep holding them to that and the natural consequences
Well, I guess part of the question is -- what are the natural consequences?
And, do strive to get whatever help you need to move her out, if she should be out on her own.
I only have a five year old, I don't know what the situation will be when he's older. Right now, we are struggling with tidying and helping out with things. It's a bit annoying, because asking him to do it returns with "it's nto fair!" which is his answer for everything from "time to get in the car to go get ice cream treats!" to "lets put the dishes in the sink so that I can wash them!" All of his life is seriously not fair becuase it's largely interrupting his lego playing.
I get it. Lego is awesome.
iris lilies
9-4-13, 11:19pm
But don't you "accept" it? Hasn't this daughter been behaving in, well, less than a stellar manner for a long time? She's still in your home. To me, that's "acceptance."
If this kid isn't a minor, and if you don't like what she is doing, Kick. Her. Out.
My heart goes out to you ZG and I wanted to be another voice to encourage you to Stand Your Ground.
Because alcoholism runs in my family and my dad is in recovery and we are on the traditional side of the spectrum... it was just an unspoken understood that if I wanted to act like a yahoo, it was going to be in my own space on my own dime. My dad provided for us handsomely through college, as long as we towed the line. Once we were educated we have been on our own ever since.
I one time borrowed some $$ from him for an apt. down payment in my late 20s, which I promptly paid back.
Cushy situations have never brought about real, lasting change for me. I have only learned through the pain of consequence of my decisions.
I'm reading This is How by Augusten Burroughs right now. I'm cherry picking the parts that perked my interest, and came across the following this morning... (on pg. 54)
Here's what he writes in a chapter about experience getting to know fellow patients at mental facilities that were suffering from eating disorders. Instead of the constant monitoring, etc.....
"I would kick her out of the house. I would give her a credit card and an ATM card attached to a bank account that held the money I'd saved for her college along with anything else I had planned on giving her.
I would tell her I loved her. Then I would tell her I was finished raising her. That she would have to take over from now on.
I would explain that I was no longer going to be part of her treatment. I was no longer going to be part of her life.
She could be a part of mine, if she wanted and if she made all the effort. But she was free to make no effort at all; I had accepted the loss. I no longer wanted anything from her or for her.
I would say these things even if saying them brought me four inches away from death by heartbreak.
But an exaggerated, magnified - even savagely abrupt- removal of anything that could even remotely be distorted into 'guidance' might be the very thing needed to save her."
I will admit openly that this process is not one I am skilled at (telling my children to leave). It has brought me through a lot of learning and in my case it is not as simple as telling the kid, setting a date and turning my back. I suppose that this works for others and in my search for a support system I find it does work for some others and then there are parents who give up, but I have found few that fall in the middle. Who are setting the standard and holding to that but then basically life happens. The job needs 60 hours for a few weeks or the water heater breaks and you spend a week with the family showering at the gym while you wait for repairs, or the car needs a repair, and you saw the improvement you asked for. However I have always stuck to my resolve that certain behaviors are not acceptable in my house or around me in general. I don't just say that it is not okay, I just say that this is harder than I ever expected and I am not very skilled at many of the things I need to do.
Do you have a support group that is good and results oriented that you can go to on a regular basis?
I go to a support group for a condition that I have to deal with on a daily basis and it's cathartic just to hear people talk about the same things and how they cope both successfully and unsuccessfully. And to have a systematic plan of action that I can work when I choose.
I know you're not long on time these days with your work schedule and all that you have going on.
No one is skilled in telling their children to hit the bricks. No one.
But don't you "accept" it? Hasn't this daughter been behaving in, well, less than a stellar manner for a long time? She's still in your home. To me, that's "acceptance."
If this kid isn't a minor, and if you don't like what she is doing, Kick. Her. Out.
This is what it really comes down to - you are allowing another adult to live in your home. If they can't abide by the rules you have set, they need to leave and lead their life the way they choose elsewhere.
I have adult children. There comes a time when both sides have to let go of the "parent/child" thing and move on. Not the relationship, but the part where they are the child and you are the parent raising them - because these are not the roles you should be in when they become adults.
You sound like you have perpetual 15 year old - and it sounds like you will need to push to get her to move forward. But you can't do it by treating her like she's still 15.
rodeosweetheart
9-5-13, 10:48am
This is what it really comes down to - you are allowing another adult to live in your home. If they can't abide by the rules you have set, they need to leave and lead their life the way they choose elsewhere.
I have adult children. There comes a time when both sides have to let go of the "parent/child" thing and move on. Not the relationship, but the part where they are the child and you are the parent raising them - because these are not the roles you should be in when they become adults.
You sound like you have perpetual 15 year old - and it sounds like you will need to push to get her to move forward. But you can't do it by treating her like she's still 15.
I think it varies so much from child to child. My oldest sounds like what you describe here--he was the one pushing to have the girlfriend sleep over, pushing to be sort of in the nest and out at the same time. The younger two hit the bricks on their own, by 18 and 19, and have lived independently successfully--the oldest has been on his own now for 8 years, but he seemed to have more trouble separating and taking responsibility for himself. Not sure why, a different personality.
So yeah, I think it varies by the personality of the child, what it takes to grow up, how much separation feels right, etc.
Each situation is different, but obviously, you need to support yourself and your values as you work through the process. Maybe those who tell you how it should be, on either end of the spectrum, aren't facing the same reality that you are--it may work well for them, but not so well for your family.
And come on, I heard the latest statistic that 40% of males from 18 to 40 are living at home with their parents?! So obviously, you are not alone in a new social reality here, and things have changed a lot since I could not wait to get out of the house once I came from college!
For a slightly different perspective from a non-parent?
You are teaching her, by your actions and how you allow your boundaries to be broken, an important lesson about how to be an adult.
Namely that she does not have to honor others' boundaries, it's alright to abuse others, and that she doesn't have the right to protect her own boundaries either (as obviously you are modeling for her). It does not seem like you're doing her any favors by letting her abuse you (and let's face it - she is).
You may not have the skillset, Zoe Girl, but we aren't born with all the skillsets we need. We learn them as it becomes clear we need them, and it can actually be a tough-joyous-growing process to flex those new muscles.
Good luck with this!
ToomuchStuff
9-5-13, 6:28pm
First of all a fair number of adults figure everyone smokes pot. Um no, And then I thought we had the boyfriend issue handled but I saw him sneaking out this morning. I have been checking the neighborhood for his car but at least last night he was here against my rules. I was talking to my friend who has a similar issues with her son and her opinion was that since I knew they were sleeping together I might as well let them do this in our house. H** no!
Okay when did I miss the message that if your kids keep on doing things you have said no to then it is time to cave in. When do I care more about what my kids think of me than my standards?
What message?
And when is it that the overall society thinks it is okay for alcohol to be at my house with underage kids in my house,
Since the passage of the 21st amendment. Having it at your house, is no different then a firearm, or your car. You have access, but are not to provide access to underage, simple as that.
pot not even hidden and a boyfriend sleeping in my daughter's bedroom!
Pot isn't legal in most places, so your involved in a crime. As for the boyfriend sleeping in your daughters room, there are a few things to take care of that.
I am in shock, (yes I am dealing with this, and getting help because they just got sneakier) . These things were kinda cool and I thought were acceptable when I was younger (of course not at my parents house) but now I am a grownup and I need to act like the parent.
History repeating itself. (as it does at a certain age) Have you talked to your parents? (now that your seeing things from their point of view)
Please if you are a parent who holds the line tell me.
Not a parent, came close to being a step, but there are reasons I didn't want biological kids of my own.
You are and need to be a parent. A parent is NOT a friend. Too many people try to confuse the two. You didn't mention her age, but talked about getting her ready to get out, so she may be close. If she is paying rent, then you have a whole different (legal landlord/tenant) dynamic.
Since your talking about getting her ready to move out, you need to be prepared!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would pack up a suitcase of her stuff and leave it in the vehicle's trnk. Catch them at your house,and drive her over to his parents house (assuming he is young enough to live at home). If you haven't met before, this is a sure fired way to meet and discuss, catching them, and that your here to drop her off, since they are playing house (and it isn't acceptable in yours). At the minimum, this will cause embarrassment (a great weapon at that age). At the worst, they accept her, and you get your house back. (and a daughter that won't talk to you for who knows how long)
Another option, that will not be popular and should be checked with a lawyer, is make her wear a chastity belt. (also embarrassing and you don't have to make her wear it out, just at home) This will also speed up her desire for freedom.
Around here, you would have families sitting around, cleaning their guns when a date comes to pick up someones daughter. Mothers, might use a stun gun and say they thought their daughter was being attacked.
IshbelRobertson
9-5-13, 6:51pm
Maybe it's a case of different cultures, but there is no way that I would allow any child of mine to ride rough-shod over my standards.
I 've read a number of your threads and read, Open-mouthed about your children's attitudes... What we in Scotland would call 'a swift skelp to the back of the legs' should have been administered many years ago.
Your children appear to run rings around you.
Another option, that will not be popular and should be checked with a lawyer, is make her wear a chastity belt.
I would hope my daughter would slay me with her bare hands if I was so abusive as to do something like that.
Though I'm pretty sure she'd use tools...
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-rVGUcWV1sog/T1u8-bhXT3I/AAAAAAAAErQ/Eksf54YbKGo/s720/IMG_0386.JPG
iris lilies
9-5-13, 9:52pm
For a slightly different perspective from a non-parent?
You are teaching her, by your actions and how you allow your boundaries to be broken, an important lesson about how to be an adult.
Namely that she does not have to honor others' boundaries, it's alright to abuse others, and that she doesn't have the right to protect her own boundaries either (as obviously you are modeling for her). It does not seem like you're doing her any favors by letting her abuse you (and let's face it - she is).
You may not have the skillset, Zoe Girl, but we aren't born with all the skillsets we need. We learn them as it becomes clear we need them, and it can actually be a tough-joyous-growing process to flex those new muscles.
Good luck with this!
I am gobsmacked by how wise this is, these are words of gold! The thing about not knowing that she has a right to enforce and protect her own boundaries is really, really important.
I wrote this long winded thing and i found it boiled down to one thing, all stories of how I held boundaries over the years aside (btw I did do a great job). My daughter is wired her own way and she is responsible for her actions. I am responsible for mine even if my life has not been perfect, I am responsible for my actions even during an emotionally abusive marriage. So to me saying that I taught her this is counterproductive. It gets me into a place where I question myself to the extent I am not as effective. For whatever reason that my daughter is this way it has taken an immense creativity and resolve to get this far. And I am in no way, shape or form a boundary-less person! I have dropped my kids' friends at a homeless shelter, I have removed bedroom doors for teenage girls, I make my kids talk to their teachers alone when they screw up, I stopped dating someone when he got very strange no matter how much I cared for him. I just got tired ya know and she got better at hiding things.
Really I just wanted to talk about how as I get some time now and really dig into dealing with the big picture I realize I don't have a lot of support. So I go out and start exploring that support. Then I find out how many adults/parents are just fine with things like pot and sleepovers. Well that cuts down the available pool of support now doesn't it. So i went to al-anon last night, I figure at least there they are not saying these things are okay. The discussion was on making amends which I don't feel connected to right now. I may go again and ask if anyone wants to talk after the meeting about how to pace the process of having the talk, packing for her if needed, changing locks, I don't know these things. And I figure a parent a little less stubborn and skilled than i would be at a loss to deal with some of these things. Would they just have no idea how to manage this in a society of helicopter parenting, really poor economy, and acceptance of substances like pot?
it might be somewhat helpful to learn some negotiation skills. Getting Past No and Getting to Yes are two really great mediation books that can help you out in terms of a specific skill.
I'm just suggesting it because I feel like you actually don't want your daughter to move out (economics, she's not ready emotionally, etc), but you want to make sure that you can live peaceably together until those situations change. And that makes sense.
Right now, it seems like you see it in a binary -- she either follows your rules or she's out. I think there's probably some middle grounds that you can discover.
The thing about mediation that's really cool is that you can do the first exercises to find out what you can live with. You determine your ideal -- this is what would be ideal for you -- and then you go backwards from there to what would be good, what would be ok. And maybe you don't go any further 'back' than ok. That's your best offer, and then you hit the binary.
The other side of mediation is that you get to hear her out. She might also feel the economic/emotional thing, but also want to be an adult in certain ways. And those could be negotiated.
And, in this, you can negotiate a time to move -- what attributes of readiness to both of you need to see/think/feel so that you know what it is when it arrives? what things can you set in motion now that can create the opportunity when that feeling arises (this is how we planned our baby)?
I think a good negotiation skills book will do you good. Most libraries ahve it. They are short reads, too.
Really I just wanted to talk about how as I get some time now and really dig into dealing with the big picture I realize I don't have a lot of support. So I go out and start exploring that support. Then I find out how many adults/parents are just fine with things like pot and sleepovers. Well that cuts down the available pool of support now doesn't it.
Well, at least you're barking up the right tree here with us. I don't think any of us here are signing off on the Ganja Sleepovers! :)
Keep looking... all kinds of things present themselves when you let go and open yourself up to new solutions and work towards them.
I just want to say that one meeting of AlAnon cant give everything you might need. Sound like they were on one topic and your idea of seeing whether there is a subset of parents there is a good one. I know my friend found great info and skills at AlAnon and she was dealing with a daughter who drank and got DUIs. PS: she was a skilled lawyer who still needed to find ways to deal with her daughter through the issue of being a parent and setting boundaries.
I love Zoebird's post also.
I'm just suggesting it because I feel like you actually don't want your daughter to move out (economics, she's not ready emotionally, etc), but you want to make sure that you can live peaceably together until those situations change. And that makes sense.
Right now, it seems like you see it in a binary -- she either follows your rules or she's out. I think there's probably some middle grounds that you can discover.
Yes definitely. I feel that I cannot talk about the conflict or the good things she has been doing because of these real issues, that somehow I am a worse parent because I do support her when she does the right things. I wonder about this idea there is of 'escorting' your child out more than laying down the law. I just spent months working through having her sister leave, her sister lived through trauma but in not dealing with that did not do any work around the house. This caused exhaustion for me and conflict with her siblings over basic home care. I now have pretty much no relationship with her. We have all been looking forward to getting our house clean and making it cute when the oldest child left, then this hits the fan! That is what we have been negotiating, and I am having a hard time with giving that up instead of working through this to the place we all wanted to be, middle child taking college classes, youngest in high school, oldest visiting for dinner and laundry, and a home that is relatively peaceful and comfortable for all.
Gardenarian
9-6-13, 1:46pm
I was talking to my friend who has a similar issues with her son and her opinion was that since I knew they were sleeping together I might as well let them do this in our house. H** no!
Why not? It sounds like this particular issue is causing a lot of friction with your daughter - maybe to the point of destroying your relationship.
What would happen if you said her boyfriend could sleep over? How would things change?
Yes, you are the parent, but it is her home too. And she should have some say in how she runs her life.
I think you need to be looking for peace and common ground.
flowerseverywhere
9-6-13, 2:02pm
Only you can decide what is best for your family regarding things like sleepovers, drinking, and drug use. One of my big things was tattoos. I said no way as long as I am supporting you. some of my friends thought I was nuts but I thought that it was something they might definitely regret. They never had opposite sex sleepovers, no alcohol until they were age 21, no exceptions. No drugs. we had friends who smoked pot with their kids and let them drink. My feeling was that by doing so I would be saying breaking the law is OK. Even if the law is stupid it still is the law. If sleeping over is not allowed in your house, so be it whether it is for moral or religious or for that matter any other religion. You have gotten some great advice, some of it pretty harsh. I am glad you have a place to vent but just remember if you keep doing the same thing over and over you will get the same results. Also, I am sorry your oldest has little contact with you. Sometimes kids behave like that no matter how much we try to be good loving parents.
We seized DSS's pot stash when he was 15, telling him that as long as it was illegal, it was not going to be in our home. We were very clear that our objections were not moral, they were legal & health based. He moved out the weekend of his 18th birthday, and DH returned the stash to him as promised, with the suggestion that he have a legal retainer in savings as a precaution.
He still smoked pot, but always left the house to do so, taking a walk with a blunt (pot inserted into a cig - yuck!) so he respected the limit. He was also clear that if he was arrested, we would not be bailing him out. Of course, this is Seattle, where the SPD took the stance that marijuana infractions were at the bottom of the list, so we all knew he'd not be under any risk. I am the daughter of an attorney, and the rule of law is important to me.
I love the way you/DH handled that, redfox.
The whole issue of what you accept at home is an interesting question. With my kids, we did NOT accept, therefore we did not get, disrespect. Nor did we accept or get flagrant disregard for our values (i.e., sleeping in the same bedroom with a member of the opposite sex IF they were under 21. Over 21, that changed).
If my kids tried to hide it, but weren't smart about it, I tended to turn a blind eye. For instance, once I found a roach clip in my shag carpeting (which tells you how long ago that was). Who cares. I certainly didn't raise that as an issue. Also, if there was a time when you could see soot above the window of my sons' bedroom--meaning they were smoking but puffing outside so I wouldn't smell it inside. Did I make a big point of the soot? No. As a matter of fact, I interpreted their efforts at hiding certain activity as respect--they wanted to smoke, but they didn't want me to know. Also, they were in their late teens. If they had been 12-13, I definitely would have spoken up about it.
My 33 year old son has JUST started smoking in front of me. He was always embarrassed/ashamed to do so in my presence. I never speak of it. I'll let him deal with it as he desires. My daughter JUST got a tattoo. We always prohibited permanent body changes. She went through all kinds of emails to us justifying it before she actually went through with it. That was almost TOO MUCH effort to please. She's 27--I respect her right to do as she pleases.
I think lack of respect for the person whose house you are living in is totally unacceptable, but it's up to the individual to draw that line.
Yes definitely. I feel that I cannot talk about the conflict or the good things she has been doing because of these real issues, that somehow I am a worse parent because I do support her when she does the right things. I wonder about this idea there is of 'escorting' your child out more than laying down the law. I just spent months working through having her sister leave, her sister lived through trauma but in not dealing with that did not do any work around the house. This caused exhaustion for me and conflict with her siblings over basic home care. I now have pretty much no relationship with her. We have all been looking forward to getting our house clean and making it cute when the oldest child left, then this hits the fan! That is what we have been negotiating, and I am having a hard time with giving that up instead of working through this to the place we all wanted to be, middle child taking college classes, youngest in high school, oldest visiting for dinner and laundry, and a home that is relatively peaceful and comfortable for all.
The little or no relationship with the oldest may very well be temporary. Sometimes kids in their late teens and early 20s need to stay well away from their family of origin until their separate identity has time to gel.
Thank you all, I am working on finding more IRL support. That is rare and special but I won't give it up trying to create it. The disrespect, I don't know. I work with a LOT of kids and middle schoolers. I have no problem creating a respectful environment. My speciality is the kids most people give up on. I think the middle one is on the edge still, she could still make a choice to work within my rules and I like the idea of mediation (actually I am looking into doing mediation for a career since I am really good at it in work environments according to feedback from schools and supervisors). She won't do counseling but mediation may be a good choice.
My oldest, maybe just give some time to grieve. It took a lot to go through the process of having her leave this time but it is to clear the home for new energy. I think we are so used to the way it has been. I appreciate the talking about it here, if anyone wants to check in I am open to personal messages but I will try to keep it off the forum since I can see how it looks
iris lilies
9-6-13, 9:19pm
Why not? It sounds like this particular issue is causing a lot of friction with your daughter - maybe to the point of destroying your relationship.
What would happen if you said her boyfriend could sleep over? How would things change?
Yes, you are the parent, but it is her home too. And she should have some say in how she runs her life.
I think you need to be looking for peace and common ground.
Believe it or not, I had the same thought. An adult child having a lover stay over is not the worst thing in the world. Smoking pot is not the worst thing in the world. Alcohol--not the worst...you get it. I see it as the sum total of what's going on in the child's life. If they are in full time school or full time job and doing well at those things, that mitigates recreational fun.
I think the moms who have commented here about battles to fight and ones not to fight are on the right track and that includes Zoebird's advice, too.
But the OP presented this sitch as: these things not allowed under my roof. And her past posts have talked about exactly this same thing from this or her other daughter. I take the OP at her word when she says that she doesn't want this stuff in her house. She gets to decide, she's a grown up woman. It's not my business to cajole her out of her standards.
But I think this thread is so good to point out how standards for behavior can change so much in the teen years. What one doesn't allow for a 14 year old is tolerable even if not ideal for an 18 year old.
Back in the day I still lived with my parents, worked full time, and went to school. I smoked some dope had boyfriends stay over and other stuff (but didn't play with alcohol, I didn't like the taste.) My mother always said "whatever ch*t my kids pulled, they both got themselves out of bed every day and to their jobs, so I figured that was pretty good. "
But the OP presented this sitch as: these things not allowed under my roof. And her past posts have talked about exactly this same thing from this or her other daughter. I take the OP at her word when she says that she doesn't want this stuff in her house. She gets to decide, she's a grown up woman. It's not my business to cajole her out of her standards.
. "
Thank you, I think considering the respect issues I need to stick to this for now. it may change if this is a longer term relationship and when we have the respect from which to negotiate.
iris lilies
9-6-13, 10:55pm
Thank you, I think considering the respect issues I need to stick to this for now. it may change if this is a longer term relationship and when we have the respect from which to negotiate.
ok Zoe, do you remember when one of your daughters wanted to paint her room black? What was that, a zillion years ago?
I posted that I thought it was fine, what's the big deal (although probably it's a bitch to paint over later.) I just did not see the big deal IF you were going to let her paint the room. The color doesn't matter in the big picture.
Also I will add that my father painted one of our bathrooms black. That was before it was fashionable, um about 48 years ago. Then he stenciled gold stars all over. It was quite special. My friends would always ask to go into the bathroom each time they visited so that they could see the crazy bathroom.
He wasn't a hippy, he was a regular dad, but he and my mom had some pretty out-there decor.
But don't you "accept" it? Hasn't this daughter been behaving in, well, less than a stellar manner for a long time? She's still in your home. To me, that's "acceptance."
If this kid isn't a minor, and if you don't like what she is doing, Kick. Her. Out.
As harsh as this sounds, it is a point of self reflection. You don't accept it. So what are you going to do about it? I know you are asking for ideas and some discussion. Sometimes it does however come down to an ultimatum. And the inevitable self reflection and question: Can I do this? Will I do this? if not, what else can happen? What else are you willing to try?
rodeosweetheart
9-7-13, 7:58am
But I thought this daughter was a minor. So how can she "kick. her. out"?
I also think that before a parent does that, the parent really need to look at whether the behavior in question is worth losing the relationship over. And that answer varies from parent to parent, obviously. Premarital sex--not what I wanted my kids doing in my house, but we had the same issues when they were home from college with SO and I think at first I held the line and then caved as they went off and lived together, and now they are married to the people that I did not want them staying with at the house. So it gets complicated there, as then you have this history of them feeling that you persecuted them in some way.
Illegal drug use, different for me. They seemed to respect my stance on that and on alcohol at least as far as I know.
So it is a personal decision and you have to weigh the pluses and minuses of whatever stance you take on such issues. And no late adolescent is going to say, "thanks for preserving your standards"--nor will any adult, either, as far as I can tell. I guess you just have to get clear on what you will accept and what you won't, but then you need a backup plan if you are parenting a minor, since kicking them out to the curb is not an option.
I do think that you are quite right to concentrate on the basic relationship--it sounds like with all the sibling drama and trauma, that the middle child might need more attention than she had been getting--isn't that always what happens with middle children? It is very easy to overlook the compliant one that is not causing any problems.
I know a lot of parents know, with kids in their middle 20's and 30's,who wish they had not pushed so hard to get the child out of the nest, and not been quite so inflexible in their parenting. So you can have regrets there, too.
I think there is a huge difference if you have always followed thru with what you said. Like, if you hit your brother one more time with that, I will take it away from you for the rest of the day. If you did actually take it away when brother was hit, the kid learns that you mean what you say. If nothing really happens, they learn that too. To expect a late teen to somehow see that this is different than all the other times you've threatened and not carried thru is unlikely.
ok Zoe, do you remember when one of your daughters wanted to paint her room black? What was that, a zillion years ago?
I posted that I thought it was fine, what's the big deal (although probably it's a bitch to paint over later.) I just did not see the big deal IF you were going to let her paint the room. The color doesn't matter in the big picture.
Also I will add that my father painted one of our bathrooms black. That was before it was fashionable, um about 48 years ago. Then he stenciled gold stars all over. It was quite special. My friends would always ask to go into the bathroom each time they visited so that they could see the crazy bathroom.
He wasn't a hippy, he was a regular dad, but he and my mom had some pretty out-there decor.
Oh we did paint the room, 2 walls black and 2 walls gold and a large border at the top deep burgundy. It had a nice asian tone to it. We worked that out because I was very concerned that painting it over would be a huge job, and she and her dad agreed to help with that (I have painted the interiors of houses a few times). It worked out until we had to paint it in the middle of the divorce so I did not want her dad over to help, but that was not her issue. She really liked the room, I just had a strong premonition I would be doing the paint over alone. That period of time, the divorce, going to school, and prepping the house for sale was brutal. I think I was exhausted to the point my body hurt for 2 years, I mean it took 2 years for the divorce and school. I don't regret letting her do the room, I had forgotten about that, but it reminds me of how much work the last 8 years have taken. If you have not gone through times of overwhelming physical and mental work then it sounds trite, it was hardly that. So then you think of course this hard work is worth something, the child will love her room and have some level of appreciation that she got choices with her space, other kinds of support like years of counseling. And she hates me, not at 16 but at 23. I just invited her to do a craft show with me next month at our church since she is a talented artist and she complained to her sister. I don't understand.
I had a bit of a break through on understanding the last 2 days. Sometimes at this age the communication is still really garbled easily. I brought the boyfriend into it, I have been talking just to my daughter because I really don't know this kid yet (the reason for no sleepovers).I think he understood more than my daughter and they came and asked if he could sleep on the couch since basically he is living out of his car. I am okay with that since he is working. I did drop one boyfriend of her sister years ago at a homeless shelter and that was a good choice for that situation. I can feel the house smoothing out a bit more, getting towards the type of home we have been talking about, when we got clear on my 3 rules. Also I came into some more information about my oldest that I am not ready to talk about but explains why having her here was so toxic, we may need to give ourselves some time to get to the home we want.
Someone mentioned that kids have to get used to you meaning it and following through, oh dear. It does look like from my stories that I just decided a year ago to really mean it and have not followed through before. Actually my kids say I never change my mind when I decide on a consequence. I am cautious to have a consequence until I know it is enforceable, is logical and I generally know the story. Then I do not change my mind. We have been back in school 9 days and I am suspending a kid from my program for a second time on Monday, I am the meanie!
I was just talking to one mother who said her son in his teenage years was impossible. The police got involved and told her what she could and could not do. She could not lock him in his room at night, could not prevent him from leaving because anyway she thought of was not "allowable". Her son kept running away and getting into trouble.
I asked her now how he is and she said he is 37 and a wonderful man, husband and father. It can take years for children to grow up and "figure out life". If you are the constant, eventually they can see that you were the stable and loving influence even if they can not see it now. Sounds trite now that I write it but this is a constant story I hear from parents. You just have to be strong, honest, and available. Nothing ever said you have to be a doormat or the police.
I don't think kids "get it" until they are responsible for providing their own roof, food, and entertainment.
My sister's son, the heroin addict, pulled a knife on her when he was 16; that was prior to the heroin. Thank goodness she called the cops & had him arrested. She had been tolerating abusive and destructive behavior for years, first from his Dad, then from him. She finally did kick him out when her daughter revealed that he had been forging her checks, stealing for her college bank account (I think he should have been arrested on theft charges personally, but he's not my son, and I am kind of a hard a$$). So he slept under the apple tree in their front yard, and she supervised him taking bathroom breaks, so he couldn't access anything to steal. He was allowed back in one he got a job & made restitution, which he did, all while sleeping outside. He's back in the house, in treatment, and clean it appears.
What to do with acting out teens... A hard matter. No easy or obvious choices. I mean, my sis kicked him out. And he went as far as the apple tree. She could have gotten a restraining order to get & keep him off the property, but that seemed extreme. In the long run, she has chosen to keep relationship with him, and bear the economic and emotional wear & tear on herself. I think she feels guilty for marrying an abuser & not protecting her kids from him, and wanting to right that wrong. Each parent has their own circumstances to weigh.
Yeah, rough. I am glad when I hear some stories that my kids stopped short of some other serious actions. My cousin was in rehab at 16, another went to jail and dad thought the whole time he was going to the rehab program ordered to keep him out of jail until the court date with the judge. Broke my uncles heart for awhile. Both cousins are doing very well, and I think my aunts and uncles are good enough parents. I say enough with perfect parenting, helicoptering or tough love to extremes, I think good enough parenting is respectful to everyone ya know.
BTW I went to visit and walk with a friend who needs to after a surgery and at some point realized this may be something I want to more deeply journal on and write about from a parenting/buddhist perspective. I mean the parenting books don't even touch this, the buddhist ones deal with other things. Just an idea
iris lilies
9-7-13, 1:34pm
So clarify: how old is this daughter? And, has she graduated from high school?
Drugs would not be tolerated in my home, period. The sex would be her business but I would insist that she be on birth control. Can she go live with her dad?
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