Poland confiscates half of private pensions

[cx3]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-09-06/poland-confiscates-half-private-pension-funds-cut-sovereign-debt-load

Didn't notice this being reported in major media.
I think it would be prudent to atleast consider that this could possibly happen here in the States as well.

[razz]

I doubt that this story will get much response unfortunately as it is a very serious warning of the future unless governments starting trimming their budgets.
Thanks for posting.

[Yossarian]

Bury gold in the backyard? Stuffing the mattress with cash won't help if there is hyperinflation.

[befree]

This is nuts - Sometimes it seems you just can't win for losing. Survivalists are looking less crazy every day.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Bury gold in the backyard? Stuffing the mattress with cash won't help if there is hyperinflation.

Realize that money is fundamentally worthless perhaps. I mean I deal with money pretty ordinarily, earn it, spend it, save some of it (not very consumerist but). But scratch me for what I really believe - it's the basic worthlessness of it all. What is saved today may or may not be there tomorrow. You really think you're in control ....

IF money depends on trust (so we are told) - is not the web of trust basically broken in our society? And I don't just mean because you don't know your neighbor, the basic corruption in the financial system that wasn't held to account after 2008 for instance.

I went to meet with a financial adviser, one who will make investments for you, it wasn't for me but I have to protect even more naive people than me see :). I went with all the skepticism in the world. It was the financial advisors opinion that confiscation of depositors money is the new plan to deal with the banks being bankrupt. There conclusion was banks weren't safe. And so they have some perfect safety to sell? Oh heck no! They were selling instead strategic risk-taking, investments in things with somewhat higher yield than savings accounts, that yes carry some risks but so do savings accounts (you may say savings accounts are not yielding what they should for their risks).


This is nuts - Sometimes it seems you just can't win for losing. Survivalists are looking less crazy every day.

Well the essence of suvivalism is non-dependence on external systems. So if no external systems can be trusted .... But if no external systems can be trusted it's the breakdown of society. Of course for survivalism I prefer community level survivalism (like Zoebird has mentioned with the green power grid).

[redfox]

Wow. Well, sadly, I got nuthin' to seize....

[gimmethesimplelife]

My question is this - do you'all think this could happen here in the US? I wonder as I have recently read online that the laws were changed in Canada - a country I have held so much respect for for so long - to allow for bail-ins of the kind that happened earlier this year in Cyprus. That really surprised me as I have viewed Canada for so long as being so much more human that the US in many ways - looks like I'm going to have to update that that view. I'm OK with being taxed quite heavily personally BUT once I've been taxed heavily, the government needs to keep it's hands off what remains. I do wonder if this isn't coming to many other countries somewhere down the line. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

This is nuts - Sometimes it seems you just can't win for losing. Survivalists are looking less crazy every day.I've been thinking this myself. I don't know that I would want to become a survivalist per se but living off the grid and being more independent in a world that seems to becoming more unstable every day is an idea that works for me. Rob

[danna]

Any thing is possible with the government we have voted in for the last 7 years.
Massive budget bills (over 400 pages) changes to everything we ever felt made us Canada.
Everything from rights to protection of waterways.

[ApatheticNoMore]

My question is this - do you'all think this could happen here in the US?

It's possible, I had to really dig to find this link but:
"In the US, depositors have actually been put in a worse position than Cyprus deposit-holders, at least if they are at the big banks that play in the derivatives casino. The regulators have turned a blind eye as banks use their depositaries to fund derivatives exposures. And as bad as that is, the depositors, unlike their Cypriot confreres, aren’t even senior creditors. Remember Lehman? When the investment bank failed, unsecured creditors (and remember, depositors are unsecured creditors) got eight cents on the dollar. One big reason was that derivatives counterparties require collateral for any exposures, meaning they are secured creditors. The 2005 bankruptcy reforms made derivatives counterparties senior to unsecured lenders.
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/03/when-you-werent-looking-democrat-bank-stooges-launch-bills-to-permit-bailouts-deregulate-derivatives.html

So hence why I think the financial advisor (it was one you pay to invest too, sleezy eh?) might be right when he says the whole world is making Cyprus the new bank bailout model. So one can try to invest other places where risk is at least recognized as risk I guess (and call for financial reform - oh good luck with that). But other than that if you can't do a darn thing about it (bury gold in the backyard I guess), then worrying about it is just the serenity prayer you know. Or else it's just fear fear fear, fearmongering, fear fear fear. Remember: be vewy afraid!

[bae]

My question is this - do you'all think this could happen here in the US?

Of course it can. You might not even see it coming until too late.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-8N0ShIjtsjw/UEfIT6SieGI/AAAAAAAAGNM/V5kSJS_WEFc/s720/Awesomized.jpg

[Yossarian]

"In the US, depositors have actually been put in a worse position than Cyprus deposit-holders, at least if they are at the big banks

Well, only if they are big deposit-holders, yes? If you are a big time depositor you have to manage your FDIC coverage.

[Packratona!]

This is nuts - Sometimes it seems you just can't win for losing. Survivalists are looking less crazy every day.

Yeah but they can tax survivalists' land and confiscate their animals and buildings for taxes too.

[iris lilies]

.... I'm OK with being taxed quite heavily personally BUT once I've been taxed heavily, the government needs to keep it's hands off what remains.... Rob

I found this amusing. So, Rob, the gov can take from you without quibble until--they can't take from you? So you DO have a line in the sand but it appears to be only terminology. If they call it a "tax" you're fine with throwing money their way but taking your money under another guise you are not fine.

Can you be happy with the ACA mandate because Justice John Roberts decided to call it a "fee" and not a tax? To me it paves the way for more robbery, call it what you like. I'm not invested in labels, when the government takes my money, they are taking my money.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Well the difference is pretty obvious between taxation and a pension being confiscated to anyone doing any kind of financial planning but ok.

[jp1]

My question is this - do you'all think this could happen here in the US?

Absolutely. First they'll try to get people to participate voluntarily like with the new My RA plan. What better than to get people to put their money in treauries than a voluntary plan where they lose money because inflation is higher than the paid interest rate. The Federal Reserve is cutting back on its money printing QE program. THey have to find a way to keep it going somehow, and this is obviously the initial plan. The problem is that there's not likely enough money to be sucked up that way so they'll have to find a less voluntary way to get more money into treasuries at some point.

[iris lilies]

Well the difference is pretty obvious between taxation and a pension being confiscated to anyone doing any kind of financial planning but ok.

Maybe. Your Social Security pension will likely be confiscated. Is that ok because you've already written it off as unlikely to come your way? (I'm assuming that you have done so.)

Perhaps the question is really "when is your money your money?" The Supreme Court's action to declare it legal under the ACA to charge people for simply existing in the U.S. seems crazy to me. Other crazy fees can't be far behind.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Maybe. Your Social Security pension will likely be confiscated. Is that ok because you've already written it off as unlikely to come your way? (I'm assuming that you have done so.)

with the status quo Social Security is probably sustainable for a very long time, with payroll tax increases if necessary, but really Social Security has been used since the Greenspan reforms to fund the general budget, so the general budget could be used to partly fund it. But that's IF there was the political will and demands to keep social security funded. And "with the status quo". I sometimes regard all "with the status quo" arguments about the longer term future as pretty much irrelevant, since they all kind of depend on humans not screwing up the ecosystem so much that they become irrelevant. So say humans aren't quite crazed enough to drive themselves extinct, any significant degradation of natural capital ("land") means greater scarcity in the future probably with all the implications of that. Having no crystal ball I haven't cashed out my retirement funds, but there's plenty that is troubling.


Perhaps the question is really "when is your money your money?" The Supreme Court's action to declare it legal under the ACA to charge people for simply existing in the U.S. seems crazy to me. Other crazy fees can't be far behind.

taxation is one thing, penalties for not buying a for profit private product was a bad road to go down. I become more and more convinced of the harm of that part of the bill ( if that's a change of mind, it's subtle, since I mostly regarded the bill as corporatism for the longest time, though I guess I more strongly see both the good and bad in it now).

[cx3]

http://www.simplelivingforum.net/showthread.php?7741-Is-the-Cyprus-bank-theft-coming-to-the-USA

MyRA ???
Here is a thread from 10 months ago where we were discussing this.
We are so cutting edge here.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I honestly don't think the myRAs are worth stealing. Really to think one's 15k (that's the lifetime limit before it must be rolled over into another retirement account) is worth stealing to anything with money (the Fed gov, the banks, the 1%, whatever) is kinda precious (look at the kind of wealth D.C. has built up (for the few) - many of the richest suburbs in the entire country around D.C., look at a chart of income inequality, and then think about 15k lifetime limit ....). But it could happen anyway? Well I suppose so. Hard to argue anything absolutely couldn't happen.

What I think the myRA is? An insignificant program to throw out to appear like they're doing something for you, while they destroy everything you have and love with their real policies (like the TPP). Money managers will probably also make some bucks for those who exceed the 15k, yes well money mangers want to make money on our money, I'm shocked ... but to contextualize even that, many money managers WILL NOT manage the accounts of those without significant assets, many firms are moving to a million at the very least, so money managers, yea I'm sure that's someones cheap bulk businesses, but many wouldn't even want to touch that.

[cx3]

Its about encrementalism ANoMore. The S&P 500 returned 32.39% in 2013.It wouldn't have looked good to have announced a more aggressive MyRA after such a good performance from the markets.When the markets disappoint again,I'm sure MyRA's will become more intrusive to protect us from "those greedy Wall Street people".

[cx3]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-05/countdown-nationalization-retirement-savings-has-begun