View Full Version : Government shutdown
flowerseverywhere
10-1-13, 9:32am
Well, my son with two small children is about to be furloughed. Thank goodness we can help him if need be. Of course that will take money we had earmarked for discretionary spending but i am happy to give things up for my grandkids. All he wants to do is go to work, do a good job and support his family. What will people do? And why is this necessary?
gimmethesimplelife
10-1-13, 9:51am
I am thankful that I am not working in the National Parks at the moment as they are all getting closed and since not too long ago I was a "Parkie", I know a lot of people in a bit of a bind right now. Funny though, the ones that spent every night in the bar are the ones scrambling now, the ones who mostly stayed alone and did their own thing - those are the ones embracing it and making travelling plans. There is a lot to be said for having a grip on your finances/cash flow. But I digress.
I really can't answer why this is necessary without taking some pretty low shots at this country and I'd rather not do that so I'll pass on that. I just hope this is not going to be a prolonged nightmare. And I hope that the economic effects will be minimal. I'm hoping this isn't going to be like the 40 days in 2000 when we did not have a Presidential winner declared - remember that fiasco with Gore and Bush? I'm all for this ending soon with minimal drama. Rob
I think it's interesting watching government at work as it gives you an opportunity to see how things are NOT supposed to work, as well as the spin that interested observers will put forth.
If you consider the House as representatives of the people, the Senate as representatives of the States and the President as representative of the Federal Government, you can see just how little the latter two care for the will of the people.
Plus, when the President says that he will not negotiate, the Senate refuses to negotiate with the House through multiple squashed ammendments and the popular message is that the House majority will not compromise, cognitive dissonance anyone?
gimmethesimplelife
10-1-13, 10:43am
I think it's interesting watching government at work as it gives you an opportunity to see how things are NOT supposed to work, as well as the spin that interested observers will put forth.
If you consider the House as representatives of the people, the Senate as representatives of the States and the President as representative of the Federal Government, you can see just how little the latter two care for the will of the people.
Plus, when the President says that he will not negotiate, the Senate refuses to negotiate with the House through multiple squashed ammendments and the popular message is that the House majority will not compromise, cognitive dissonance anyone?I'm trying to understand here. You don't consider the fact that Obama let parts of ObamaCare take another year to take effect, spefically the part about employer coverage? You don't see this as having negotiated already? Where I come from compromise is about giving a little and getting a little in return - Obama has already given a little - it's time for him to get a little back. Thank God he's got some kind of spine and is willing to stand up to the Republicans and what they stand for. Rob
iris lilies
10-1-13, 11:04am
I'm trying to understand here. You don't consider the fact that Obama let parts of ObamaCare take another year to take effect, spefically the part about employer coverage? You don't see this as having negotiated already? Where I come from compromise is about giving a little and getting a little in return - Obama has already given a little - it's time for him to get a little back. Thank God he's got some kind of spine and is willing to stand up to the Republicans and what they stand for. Rob
The Prez had to give up the bits about employer mandate because it was a chaotic mess of regulation. He (and the minions, of course) were unable to carry out their own mandate because WTF is the mandate? Businesses that intended to comply couldn't figure it out.
Please cite your evidence that show President Obama backed this off due to Congressional pressure from Republicans.
No, he backed out because he is unable to perform. Now, I don't think that's a bad thing. This ACA is a massive regulatory glob of words and as such is, well, complex. It's gonna take some time. Even if I'm embracing the whole thing, I realize that difficulty ranging from bumps in the road to out and out byzantine stupidity will characterize the implementation of this thing.
The GOP shutting it down is probably what the country needed to witness their extremism. It's a profound failure of leadership in Boehner's part in my view.
I'm trying to understand here. You don't consider the fact that Obama let parts of ObamaCare take another year to take effect, spefically the part about employer coverage? You don't see this as having negotiated already? ....
No, that actually wasn't compromise, that was a probably illegal, political reaction to the negative reality that the Affordable Care Act will have on employment numbers prior to the mid-term elections in 2014. I say it's probably illegal because I'm not aware of any President having the ability to rescind or change a duly enacted law through executive fiat, without Congressional approval. It seems to me that no one person should be able to approve selective enforcement or relief from penalty of existing laws. It sets a frightening precedent for abuse.
If rescinding the employer mandate through executive fiat was a good thing, how would a temporary recision of the individual mandate, properly approved by Congressional legislation, not be equally as good? In the end, the failure to even consider it resulted in today's government shutdown.
The GOP shutting it down is probably what the country needed to witness their extremism. It's a profound failure of leadership in Boehner's part in my view.
I would respectfully disagree with that assessment. If one house of Congress presents three separate options to keep the government funded, and the Democrats in the Senate and Oval Office refuse to negotiate those options, how can the blame be shifted to the only group with an approved plan to prevent it?
Remember Conjunction Junction, I Am A Bill? The law passed, so get over it and let those of us who need affordable health care PAY a reasonable price while the mega-corps pay for their employees. It is stupid that insurance companies charge an extraordinary premium for those who need individual policies while employers pay a reduced rate. Sell me Health Insurance like I buy Auto Insurance and allow Insurance companies to operate nationwide instead of by state so the market can determine the price.
As for the original poster and the furloughed employee, does the furloughed person not have an emergency fund?
Because, Alan, the GOP has been throwing tantrums over ACA for far too long. Wasting taxpayer dollars floating obviously losing votes on an already approved law, affirmed by SCOTUS, reveals them as a bunch of children. This stupid refusal to approve the budget in order to de-fund that which they could not shut down any other way is simply irresponsible.
I would respectfully disagree with that assessment. If one house of Congress presents three separate options to keep the government funded, and the Democrats in the Senate and Oval Office refuse to negotiate those options, how can the blame be shifted to the only group with an approved plan to prevent it?
It seemed to me more that they offered the same option three different ways.
And the "delay for a year" thing was completely disingenuous - what the House was really offering was giving themselves a year off on this issue before they resumed trying to kill it.
When the two sides of an issue is continuing Obamacare on schedule and not continuing Obamacare on schedule, there's not a whole lot of room for negotiation.
gimmethesimplelife
10-1-13, 12:04pm
The GOP shutting it down is probably what the country needed to witness their extremism. It's a profound failure of leadership in Boehner's part in my view.+1000 Rob
According to this poll, the GOP does not represent "the people" with their intransigence, as a few claim.
http://www.quinnipiac.edu/institutes-and-centers/polling-institute/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=1958
gimmethesimplelife
10-1-13, 12:07pm
Remember Conjunction Junction, I Am A Bill? The law passed, so get over it and let those of us who need affordable health care PAY a reasonable price while the mega-corps pay for their employees. It is stupid that insurance companies charge an extraordinary premium for those who need individual policies while employers pay a reduced rate. Sell me Health Insurance like I buy Auto Insurance and allow Insurance companies to operate nationwide instead of by state so the market can determine the price.
As for the original poster and the furloughed employee, does the furloughed person not have an emergency fund?Hi lac. Thanks for the laugh, this is all so serious and your post made me laugh as I was thinking of a simpler time - the 70's - when Schoolhouse Rock was on the Saturday morning cartoons. Rob PS I agree with the rest of your post, too.
gimmethesimplelife
10-1-13, 12:08pm
Because, Alan, the GOP has been throwing tantrums over ACA for far too long. Wasting taxpayer dollars floating obviously losing votes on an already approved law, affirmed by SCOTUS, reveals them as a bunch of children. This stupid refusal to approve the budget in order to de-fund that which they could not shut down any other way is simply irresponsible.+1000 again, Redfox. You stated this much better than I ever could. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-1-13, 12:16pm
There's a part of me that wonders how this is all going to turn out - we can envision what might happen all day here but none of read the future here (at least that I'm aware of lol). I find this shutdown stressful personally but perhaps in some ways it is long overdue. We have two ideological stances here in each other's face refusing to back down.
I think this shutdown is important as my gut is telling me this is going to decide the future in some important ways. What kind of country are we going to be going forward? How will we treat our less fortunate, and is life to be all about money and nothing but? Is health care a right or a privilege? We all know where I stand on this and how the regulars here stand on these issues and I don't mean to get into them again here. I do think, however, that the results of this standoff are going to decide the future for a lot of people. And maybe not right now, but when they look back on the decisions made here after the consequences - good or bad - at some later date.
I for one wish whatever drama is to transpire, could it just hurry up and be done? Rob
+1000 again, Redfox. You stated this much better than I ever could. Rob
FWIW, I mourn the death of the centrist GOP. I hold hope that a secular, educated, civil GOP rises out of the ashes of the disaster that this party has become. We need robust parties to compete; I prefer four or five of them! The long-planned and now executed über conservative religious take over of the GOP by the US version of the Taliban is doing no one any good. Except maybe the Koch bros.
gimmethesimplelife
10-1-13, 12:23pm
FWIW, I mourn the death of the centrist GOP. I hold hope that a secular, educated, civil GOP rises out of the ashes of the disaster that this party has become. We need robust parties to compete; I prefer four or five of them! The long-planned and now executed über conservative religious take over of the GOP by the US version of the Taliban is doing no one any good. Except maybe the Koch bros.I'm no Republican, but I don't disagree with you, either. I find the GOP has become much more extreme than they once were and by extreme I mean in a scary kind of way. The kind of way that if I had kids I'd want to shield them from it if possible until they were older. I can remember a time that the political process was not so - what's the word I'm looking for? - nasty? hostile? aggressive? I'm not sure. It would be nice if the GOP were not so extreme so possibly compromises could be reached and this brinksmanship and now this shutdown would not be part of our nation's reality. Rob
Congressman Derek Kilmer-
"Today I announced I will give up my pay for the duration of a government shutdown.
I am dead set against a shutdown because it will have serious effects on our economy and because many people rely on services provided by federal agencies.
The fact that some in Congress would risk a shutdown in order to score political points demonstrates why Congress is currently held in lower regard than head lice. Should the government shut down, I will give up my pay to lead by example in the hopes that Congress will stop the dysfunction, stop the self-imposed crises, and start working on a balanced, bipartisan, long-term budget."
Class act.
Will Rep. Boehner & his people do the same?
I was wondering this too.........how many people in their states do some of these GOP representatives actually represent?
These seem to be the evangelical types.........the religious people who are so dogmatic and inflexible about all their beliefs, in every aspect of their lives.
I thought requiring people to work without paying them is slavery. I also thought we fought a civil war and added a constitutional amendment to end it. So what's up with requiring essential employees to work without pay and not allowing them to use earned PTO if they are sick or injured? Why not stop paying Congress until they get their sith together??
As much as I understand (or don't understand) the Affordable Care Act, I am pretty much middle of the road on whether I favor it. However, my humble read on the budget is that the people elected the President and the Senate majority knowing health care was on the table. The system of democratic rule passed the law. I can see negotiating on other issues, but the health care act is now law and seems to be the will of the people. What the polls are saying is that something like 50% of the public favors (or disfavors) the affordable care act, but only one in three think the government should be shut down over it. I say let the people rule.
What is happening is a sign of a broken system and it's too bad so many have to pay the price of our dysfunctional congress.
Much involved with my job (customs broker) is affected. Of course, Customs stil wants their.duty payments, but Customs' website is one of the.few fully functional websites.
Passenger and cargo clearance is still happening normally, although maybe a bit slow. But any of my customs clearances that have to deal with FDA, USDA, EPA as well as Customs are delayed, as the shipments need the OK of these other agencies before.they can be released. Fish and Wildlife enforcement officers for imports are still.working for the time being as I had to call this morning.
Customers are not happy.
Many of the.federal websites are down. Good thing I'm still used to looking up stuff in the paper tariff book. I know too many brokers who use tbe online one and that is unavailable.
This could get interesting. Nearly.all customs clearances.are.done electronically, so basic ones.will.go through without a.problem.
ToomuchStuff
10-1-13, 1:26pm
No, that actually wasn't compromise, that was a probably illegal, political reaction to the negative reality that the Affordable Care Act will have on employment numbers prior to the mid-term elections in 2014. I say it's probably illegal because I'm not aware of any President having the ability to rescind or change a duly enacted law through executive fiat, without Congressional approval. It seems to me that no one person should be able to approve selective enforcement or relief from penalty of existing laws. It sets a frightening precedent for abuse.
If rescinding the employer mandate through executive fiat was a good thing, how would a temporary recision of the individual mandate, properly approved by Congressional legislation, not be equally as good? In the end, the failure to even consider it resulted in today's government shutdown.
I am confused about how this is a precedent? I thought the whole precedent thing went back to not enforcing immigration laws, either by the order that is being fought over by the ICE union, or further back when Arizona was being sued for telling illegal immigrants that they had to go back to where they are legal, when in the courts, because the state didn't have the right to take them there, but couldn't order them to violate the law by staying as well.
Personally, I think the government shutdown could be a good thing. It makes agencies look at trimming the fat, getting rid of unneeded people and positions (has already been happening with positions not being filled) and teaches those that work for them, that they are not the government in their personal lives and they do need to save for a rainy day.
It isn't like there wasn't problems with them before the shutdown, why would now be any different?
I am confused about how this is a precedent? I thought the whole precedent thing went back to not enforcing immigration laws, either by the order that is being fought over by the ICE union, or further back when Arizona was being sued for telling illegal immigrants that they had to go back to where they are legal, when in the courts, because the state didn't have the right to take them there, but couldn't order them to violate the law by staying as well.
That's a good example, I'd forgotten about that. I guess in my mind the precedent is that the executive branch seems to believe that it has the power to do such things by fiat, without concern for consequences. The danger is that once we accept that the rule of law can be selectively enforced, we really don't have the protections that laws are meant to provide. If a law needs to be repealed or modified in some way, there are methods in place to change the underlying legislation. Not following them should not be an acceptable option.
ApatheticNoMore
10-1-13, 2:14pm
As much as I understand (or don't understand) the Affordable Care Act, I am pretty much middle of the road on whether I favor it. However, my humble read on the budget is that the people elected the President and the Senate majority knowing health care was on the table. The system of democratic rule passed the law. I can see negotiating on other issues, but the health care act is now law and seems to be the will of the people. What the polls are saying is that something like 50% of the public favors (or disfavors) the affordable care act, but only one in three think the government should be shut down over it. I say let the people rule.
What is happening is a sign of a broken system and it's too bad so many have to pay the price of our dysfunctional congress.
+1 yea pretty much. And of course it's not just the ACA, if it wasn't that it would be the debt ceiling etc.. But apparently these government shutdowns are not unusual historically in the 20th century - so it's not that rare even if it is a very strange way to run a government indeed.
And by the way noting what gets funded and what doesn't in government shutdowns will tell you everything you need to know about what the real priorities are (NSA - too important to cut funding for ... food stamps OTOH ...) - wow that's worth a dozen books of discourse on politics just that awareness right there, just knowing what gets funded and doesn't when push comes to shove. You find out who your friends are ...
Whats going to happen when the debt gets so high no one will loan us any more money? How long can the Fed keep printing money? Our money now is only backed by our Military. How many wars are we willing to fight?
Many have probably lost a job at one time or another and that is the reason to have an emergency fund. The government will not be shut down forever, but it is way to large now. I bet the world wont come to an end. And no one is being forced to work for no pay.
Well, I am out of a job. My husband works for the association and is also out of a job. Thankfully we have other sources of income but the most horrible part of it all is that we are not on "vacation". We can't go anywhere really because we have no idea when we will be back at work. We are in a state of flux and I think that is what will really harm most government workers. They might ultimately decide that working for the federal government is not for them. I do not know. Hardest part. Not Knowing When.
ApatheticNoMore
10-1-13, 2:57pm
Whats going to happen when the debt gets so high no one will loan us any more money? How long can the Fed keep printing money?
Yea, you can't answer those questions in a vacuum though. So does QE represent money printing to bail out the banks (and prop up the stock market or whatever). See I've heard lots of different answers on this so I'm not really sure. I've also heard a lot of different answers on whether the Fed is or is not monetizing the debt now, so I'm not sure of that either. But back to QE, if so where is the justice in printing money to prop up corrupt, exploitive institutions, like banks, that seems to mostly lead to a transfer of wealth upwards, and not to fund programs that will help the vast majority? See that's why it doesn't make sense to anyone else in this country either and nobody believes any of the nonsense we are fed anymore about how the system allegedly works.
Beyond money printing, there's always taxes, part of the solution to the debt could always be raising taxes.
Our money now is only backed by our Military. How many wars are we willing to fight?
This is partially true, I mean at this point we may be at the point of no return, at the same time our money was massively wasted on the military. Come on now several unnecessary wars wasn't a massive money drain and didn't massively increase the deficit? Of course it was. I am not willing to let this country fight ANY more wars. I will see you in the streets protesting the next one and I mean it. By the way I remain unconvinced the average person in this country benefits from these wars, by propping up their money or anything else, because wars may indeed have financial benefits but they also have massive financial costs. A select group (the MIC) probably benefits more than it costs them but I'm unconvinced this applies broadly to the citizenry. A bankrupt country could be said to be the inevitable result of a country that keeps fighting wars for which it gets little benefit (or which it loses of course). So this obvious point was made to me, when reading a book by someone way to smart to be making obvious points, and it was just like a revelation - that yea in the 70s inflation was the inevitable result of Vietnam, our bankruptcy is the inevitable result of these wars.
flowerseverywhere
10-1-13, 3:08pm
As for the original poster and the furloughed employee, does the furloughed person not have an emergency fund?
of course. They live below their means but stuff happens. They are among the lucky ones who can pay their bills and have parents to help if necessary. But all he wants to do is go to work and do his job. Not sit home and let his work pile up and his ef drain down.
ApatheticNoMore
10-1-13, 3:14pm
But all he wants to do is go to work and do his job. Not sit home and let his work pile up and his ef drain down.
if only there was a way to trade leisure time with these people :). If I could spend down my emergency fund and get a real vacation, and they could go to work (as long as I can go back to work when I'm done with that of course - a security true unemployment could never offer me).
Whats going to happen when the debt gets so high no one will loan us any more money? How long can the Fed keep printing money? Our money now is only backed by our Military. How many wars are we willing to fight?
I've wondered this, too. My best estimate is that the Fed can print money to try to stimulate the economy as long as inflation is under control or below it's long term average. As much as I've thought about it, that is the big issue to me. I think the danger is that inflation or hyper inflation will lag the stimulus which will be bad for the economy on it's own, but will also cause the feds to raise interest rates.
As far as people loaning us money, even though the ratings agencies have raised the risk on US treasuries, we are still considered one of the safest havens in the world for people for people to park cash. One of the dangers as the debt grows is that the interest we pay on debt will hinder the economy. But interest rates are darned low now.
As counter intuitive as it seems, theoretically I think we have a long ways to go before reaching any sort of limit. Not that I agree with more debt and monetary supply. And like ANM mentions, we have the power of taxation if things get bad.
flowerseverywhere
10-1-13, 3:31pm
if only there was a way to trade leisure time with these people :). If I could spend down my emergency fund and get a real vacation, and they could go to work (as long as I can go back to work when I'm done with that of course - a security true unemployment could never offer me).
You can't go anywhere. You sit and wait until you are told to go back. And you can be sure many are experiencing significant stress
Gardenarian
10-1-13, 3:38pm
I love this article on Slate.com on the shutdown - a feature in which American events are described using the tropes and tone normally employed by the American media to describe events in other countries.
If It Happened There ... the Government Shutdown (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2013/09/30/potential_government_shutdown_how_would_the_u_s_me dia_report_on_it_if_it.html)
An excerpt:
"But the pleasant autumn weather disguises a government teetering on the brink. Because, at midnight Monday night, the government of this intensely proud and nationalistic people will shut down, a drastic sign of political dysfunction in this moribund republic."
ApatheticNoMore
10-1-13, 3:45pm
You can't go anywhere. You sit and wait until you are told to go back. And you can be sure many are experiencing significant stress
yea many probably do, if they live paycheck to paycheck they will be stressed. Still someone somewhere must be enjoying it. I'd take a staycation.
"Due to the lapse in appropriated funds, all public lands managed by the Interior Department (National Parks, National Wildlife Refuges, Bureau of Land Management facilities, etc.) will be closed. For more information, FAQs, and updates, please visit ww.doi.gov/shutdown."
There's a National Park on our main island in this county. It has no real services, its roads are county roads, and indeed, some of those roads need to be traversed to get from one part of the island to another.
In the Federal Government's haste to show us how much trouble we are all in, they sent out someone to close the roads today:
http://www.islandguardian.com/archives/ig_NPS_ClosedParks-02.jpg
Mind you, this isn't Federal land, our county tax dollars build and maintain that road and some of the others they close, and the beach at the end of the one pictured is county, not state or Federal.
The Sheriff shortly thereafter decided the Feds weren't welcome to seize our road, and is sorting out the mess...
So here, in the most liberal county in this liberal state, I think quite a few people woke up today.
We had a wee incident a couple years ago in this same park in which a Federal park ranger decided it was appropriate to draw a weapon on a man who was walking his dog off-leash, and hold him at gunpoint until the Sheriff arrived for "backup".
As for the original poster and the furloughed employee, does the furloughed person not have an emergency fund?
Here's the thing. Very few people actually have emergency funds. Maybe they are bad with money. Maybe where they live has a high COL. Maybe they aren't paid much. Maybe all of these.
When DH and I were first starting out, we were living in a relatively high COL area earning very little (under $40k combined). We had student loan debt, mortgage, and a modest car loan. We put a small amount into the 401k, too. So, we lived within our means, but there wasn't a savings account, and there certainly wasn't an EF.
It wasn't until DH's car and student loans were paid off (happened at the same time) that we were able to put away into our EF, and many of our peers just didn't have one. It still took us two full years to get a 3 month emergency fund, and then another year after that (with raises and everything), we were able to get up to 6 months.
I have no doubt that there are some families in the situation of being within their first 10 years of work and don't have an emergency fund that could sink them.
One of my online friends is in this boat -- lives very simply. Her daughter is disabled, and their copays on medical costs are high. Because of the disability, too, mom (friend) stays at home and her husband works for government. They have very little savings or emergency fund -- even though they are debt free otherwise (no medical debt, no credit card debt, rent their home, etc). So, the government furlough is going to hit this family really hard, and those of us around here are circling the wagons as best we can.
But there are lots of families like this. And to be honest, it stinks for them. These folks are happy to continue to work, and need to to keep going forward. But all this over a fuss?
.... The danger is that once we accept that the rule of law can be selectively enforced, we really don't have the protections that laws are meant to provide. If a law needs to be repealed or modified in some way, there are methods in place to change the underlying legislation. Not following them should not be an acceptable option.
You're joking, right?? Really??? "IF A LAW NEEDS TO BE REPEALED OR MODIFIED IN SOME WAY, THERE ARE METHODS IN PLACE TO CHANGE THE UNDERLYING LEGISLATION..."
And...I suppose hostage taking is one you approve of, apparently. Along with a list of demands that essentially declares Obama out and , Mitt Romney in?
The ACA is LAW. Period. Do you dispute that? The republicans tried, have tried, to repeal it. They failed in that. Period. Do you dispute that? Was Obama elected President on this law? yes. Did SCOTUS confirm the CONSTITUTIONALITY OF IT? Yes. Do we negotiate with terrorists, or hostage takers? No. We do not. Nor do we blame the authorities when the hostage is killed because all the terrorists DEMANDS weren't met.
The Tea Party Taliban, and you are a good little foot soldier Alan, are trying to put this on the President/Democrats because they aren't capitulating to THEIR list of demands. They even ISSUED it as a list of demands!!
They are saying, "It's your fault we killed the hostage cause you could have simply given us everything we wanted."
Nice try, and it will probably work on those lacking critical thinking skills. But even a dullard eventually realizes that the way to keep from getting hit by the falling bricks is to simply take a few steps to the left.;)
We have a friend who is working in the State Dept as an anti-terrorist expert. He's furloughed. Yup, bottom of the priority list. My work depends on federal grants which were in place before the shut down, so my workplace sent an email that implied they *think* I will get paid for the duration of the shut down, but the federal govt did not make that clear before the shut down. According to my workplace, I may be taking a financial risk by continuing to work. That's a fun email to get.
I have out of town guests coming tomorrow, and they would probably like to see Rocky Mountain National Park. Too bad. The same park that just recently opened about 93% of its terrain, the other 7% flooded and either needs work or has unstable areas or trails completely washed out. Said trails are not being assessed or repaired. Never mind the roads to the park, all but one of which are now closed thanks to either the shutdown or the floods in Sept. The National Guard isn't certain whether they are authorized to work on said roads, one of which needs 85% of its length repaired before Dec 1. The weather is already turning toward winter (supposed to snow Friday) so it's not something that will be improved, or maybe even possible, with much of a delay. I'm pretty angry about all this.
However, that's not life and death. For these children with cancer and possibly the last chance for hope who had to be turned away from clinical trials at the NIH, it could be a matter of life and death. (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/10/the-saddest-paragraph-youll-read-about-the-government-shutdown-today/280174/) So no, I do not think the government shutdown is a good thing. It's real pain, for real people. It's not about "trimming budgets" which has been happening anyway with the sequester. It's a considerable amount of money, (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-01/shutdown-would-cost-u-s-economy-300-million-a-day-ihs-says.html) everything from actual lost work from federal workers to hidden lost money such as a drop in foreign tourists or a decrease in spending by people and businesses due to uncertainty. Good for almost no one. As for Obamacare, yeah there may be problems with it but it's the law, passed *constitutionally* and vetted *constitutionally* so holding up the entire federal government for a constitutional law is, or should be, unconstitutional.
On the other hand, the FAA paper-pusher who was harassing my local airport to close the dog park and community garden that is on some of their land because they were "incompatible uses"(*) is nowhere to be seen. Plenty of dogs and gardeners seem happy.
(*) light industrial warehouses OK, dog parks - not so much...
I used to think the meme "governing by tantrum" was an unfair assessment of the Republican party's actions of the past few years.
No longer. The government shutdown is doing real damage, hurting real people, opening real security loopholes in everything from ports to securities fraud.
All because the extremist wing of one party is unhappy about laws passed by a *legal* majority of the citizens' elected officials in Congress. Evidently they are so out of touch with what real life in America is like, and need not care about the repercussions (they, after all, won't be missing any paychecks) THIS is how they choose to throw their tantrum.
If I allow myself to think about it much, I am so ashamed, so angry. As it is, I hope some sort of cooler head will prevail, and we'll see some kind of movement back toward sanity soon. I have many friends and family members being affected as well, flowers. Bless you for being there for them.
ApatheticNoMore
10-1-13, 11:42pm
We have a friend who is working in the State Dept as an anti-terrorist expert. He's furloughed. Yup, bottom of the priority list.
Oh could it be? The war on terror is finally over, and who even cares who won anymore? Ticker tape parade. The whole terror complex is insanely overfunded so massively reducing it would be a very very good thing. We might actually get something resembling our civil liberties and our country back (RIP 2001). Or well it's one good first step, necessary if not sufficient.
Ditto, Pug.
This -- http://www.upworthy.com/a-senator-bluntly-says-what-were-all-thinking-about-the-awful-and-obnoxious-government-shutdown
-- says it all.
gimmethesimplelife
10-2-13, 2:03am
Well, I am out of a job. My husband works for the association and is also out of a job. Thankfully we have other sources of income but the most horrible part of it all is that we are not on "vacation". We can't go anywhere really because we have no idea when we will be back at work. We are in a state of flux and I think that is what will really harm most government workers. They might ultimately decide that working for the federal government is not for them. I do not know. Hardest part. Not Knowing When.I'm wishing you the best and hope that the shutdown does not make your life too too too stressful. As I said to other folks I know that are up in the air - mostly folks who work for park concessionaires - hang in there. Just keep swimming, eventually you will reach the other shore - I.E. this has to end. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-2-13, 2:04am
I used to think the meme "governing by tantrum" was an unfair assessment of the Republican party's actions of the past few years.
No longer. The government shutdown is doing real damage, hurting real people, opening real security loopholes in everything from ports to securities fraud.
All because the extremist wing of one party is unhappy about laws passed by a *legal* majority of the citizens' elected officials in Congress. Evidently they are so out of touch with what real life in America is like, and need not care about the repercussions (they, after all, won't be missing any paychecks) THIS is how they choose to throw their tantrum.
If I allow myself to think about it much, I am so ashamed, so angry. As it is, I hope some sort of cooler head will prevail, and we'll see some kind of movement back toward sanity soon. I have many friends and family members being affected as well, flowers. Bless you for being there for them.+1, especially the part about government by tantrum. I could not agree with you more. Rob
flowerseverywhere
10-2-13, 9:19am
Ditto, Pug.
This -- http://www.upworthy.com/a-senator-bluntly-says-what-were-all-thinking-about-the-awful-and-obnoxious-government-shutdown
-- says it all.
excellent speech. This whole episode reminds me of when people were willing to tear apart a country for the right to own slaves. Now to most (but not all) it seems unbelievable. It seems unbelievable to me that any elected official would go for this self serving shutdown. And to those who think those laid off are lucky to get time off or who are at fault if they do not have their financial house in order enough to endure a pay holiday, be careful, you could be next the way this economy is going. Don't worry, a mortgage to pay or utilities? blame the victim. and to Bae, your pics reminded me of that old movie "the Russians are coming". Panic about nothing.
and thanks to all who sent good wishes. It is very stressful for them.
I think Pug used the best words for what many of us have said. Trying to look at this objectively, I have to think that this is what the majority of Americans think and it just seems like the conservatives are shooting themselves in the foot by causing so many problems that people will remember. Beyond the problems caused it actually seems like a glitch in the system that allows a minority to override the will of the people.
I'm not sure I completely understand all of the issues, but this article caught my attention.
"This week's government shutdown could be just a warm up for an even bigger budget battle in a couple of weeks."
http://www.npr.org/2013/10/01/228158870/beyond-the-shutdown-theres-a-bigger-battle-brewing
gimmethesimplelife
10-2-13, 9:31am
I am of the opinion that October 2013 is going to be a roller coaster ride....not the kiddy coaster they have at Hispanic markets from time to time here in Phoenix but the real thing - like that one in Ohio I think it is - the world's highest roller coaster drop. Maybe not quite that dramatic but definitely twists in turns in the plot akin to a Mexican telenovela. But this is just my hunch, and I'd be very pleased to be wrong. Rob
Brilliant article.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2013/09/30/potential_government_shutdown_how_would_the_u_s_me dia_report_on_it_if_it.html
ApatheticNoMore
10-2-13, 11:47am
The speech seemed to go off into irrelevancy, I lost interest in watching it, yea be hard on me, but I don't like video as a means of information delivery anyhow, and it's only a politician talking and politicians are hopeless seasoned liars. The irrelevancy: I don't think the shutdown is primarily about birth control for goodness sake, I mean really is that even an *accurate* portrayal of things, in terms of basic accuracy? Ok correct me if it is. But I think the shutdown is mostly about the ACA. I've even heard that it is being fought over the individual mandate although that's hard to collaborate too. Now the Republicans will cherry pick anything they can to fight the ACA over. Accepted. But the individual mandate is very unpopular (not that people want the govt shut down over it). It's needed to make people buy from a private company to make this form of healthcare "reform" work. Yea probably is.
Trying to be fair I'm not so sure there is a lot I haven't heard. Like I dont' think governance by means of government shut down is some great idea (yes it may illustrate some *PARTS* of government should be shuttered permanently (and throw away the key) like the terrorism complex) but nonetheless governance by means of government shutdown is not a good idea (but did you know it's not such a new idea, it hasn't happened recently until Republicans but it happened in the 20th century a bit). I'm prepared to blame it mostly on Republicans. Mostly because the arguments that I have heard otherwise have been absurd - but Obama could print a trillion dollar coin. I mean come on when that's what one resorts to, I conclude it's not Obama's fault. But whose decision is it what agencies are shut and what are kept open? They can't ALL just be declared emergency agencies that need to be kept open? What would that involve to do so? That's a real question. I don't' know. Passing some budget would also be preferable to this, although there are some things I don't think should be compromised just to get a budget (i.e. you don't gut SS just to get a budget, any budget).
..
I have out of town guests coming tomorrow, and they would probably like to see Rocky Mountain National Park. Too bad. The same park that just recently opened about 93% of its terrain, the other 7% flooded and either needs work or has unstable areas or trails completely washed out. Said trails are not being assessed or repaired. Never mind the roads to the park, all but one of which are now closed thanks to either the shutdown or the floods in Sept. The National Guard isn't certain whether they are authorized to work on said roads, one of which needs 85% of its length repaired before Dec 1. The weather is already turning toward winter (supposed to snow Friday) so it's not something that will be improved, or maybe even possible, with much of a delay. I'm pretty angry about all this.
..
I'm wishing you the best and hope that the shutdown does not make your life too too too stressful. As I said to other folks I know that are up in the air - mostly folks who work for park concessionaires - hang in there. Just keep swimming, eventually you will reach the other shore - I.E. this has to end. Rob
Yes, the concessionaires, the guides (river, hiking, 4 wheeling), the hunters (can't get onto federal lands to hunt now and elk season is upon us!), the communities surrounding parks and monuments with the retailers, restaurants, hotels, motels, gas stations, convenience stores, grocery stores, rv parks, utilities, snow plowers, recreational stores and outlets, and more. Billion dollar industry in tourism shut down.
I feel for those folks. They live paycheck to paycheck.
This is not a "staycation" nor a vacation. For the student conservation association young adults (18-26) whose first or second job is interning at federal lands and only get paid when they work - those are the ones that are hit just as hard as the tourism industry. They don't pay for housing but don't get paid much for their work. With the parks and monuments shut down, they do not get paid at all. They can not go for unemployment because it is an internship and shorter timeframes. These kids are under their parents health care because they do not get it from an internship. Even if Congress gets us back to work, we rangers may or may not be paid but these kids definitely WILL NOT get paid. Yet they too have to wait around for the end of their appointment because if they leave, it will be a ding on their next job.
My husband and I will be OK. We have enough emergency fund and investments to go for a year without pay. We were planning to take this winter off from volunteering and check out the deserts of Utah, Nevada, and Texas. Of course, most of those are on Federal Lands. So who knows what will happen next.
However, I do believe that this crisis will go into the next crisis, the Debt Ceiling. But by then, the crazed will have shot themselves in the foot. There will be so many people extremely angry with Congress that something will come to a head.
Until then, I will keep a positive outlook on life, as I look out my window, see the rain falling down, and watch the trees turn red.
So - who thinks the shut down will continue until the debt ceiling vote - when basically the same "deal" will come out of the House again?
Here is an interesting table on our spending.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=200
My husband and I will be OK. We have enough emergency fund and investments to go for a year without pay. We were planning to take this winter off from volunteering and check out the deserts of Utah, Nevada, and Texas. Of course, most of those are on Federal Lands. So who knows what will happen next.
It's my understanding that only National Parks, National Wildlife Refuges, and National Monuments are totally closed. That leaves a WHOLE lot of federal land available for travel and recreation that would include National Forests, National Grasslands, BLM land, though some government services and campgrounds may not be available. Some of the campgrounds run by concessionaires in these places may remain open. There will be some impact on tourism for sure, but hunters will still have places to hunt and rafters places to raft. I think most or all National Parks are closed to hunting anyway.
Locally, Estes Park is just barely starting to recover from floods. They are pretty much the gateway to Rocky Mountain National Park and it's attractions are a big part of their tourist business. Right now is normally a popular time for seeing the falls colors and elk watching in the park. They are having a rough time.
There's a National Park on our main island in this county. It has no real services, its roads are county roads, and indeed, some of those roads need to be traversed to get from one part of the island to another.
In the Federal Government's haste to show us how much trouble we are all in, they sent out someone to close the roads today:....
Hopefully the Democrats will reverse themselves soon and your orange cones and tape barriers will go away. Last night, the House began piecemeal legislation to restore funding to the District of Columbia, veterans affairs and national parks, although it needed a two thirds majority and the Democrats shot it down.
I think the plan is to try it again today on a simple majority vote, which should sail through the majority easily. Of course, getting it through the Senate may be a whole nother battle since closing things and keeping them closed seems to be the primary objective.
gimmethesimplelife
10-2-13, 7:41pm
Hopefully the Democrats will reverse themselves soon and your orange cones and tape barriers will go away. Last night, the House began piecemeal legislation to restore funding to the District of Columbia, veterans affairs and national parks, although it needed a two thirds majority and the Democrats shot it down.
I think the plan is to try it again today on a simple majority vote, which should sail through the majority easily. Of course, getting it through the Senate may be a whole nother battle since closing things and keeping them closed seems to be the primary objective.Alan, I can't say this being 100% certain but my gut instinct is that the Republicans are going to have to knuckle under on this one. Something I'm grateful for is the polls continue to show that Americans are blaming the Republicans for the government shutdown. I so hope this continues and puts pressure on the GOP so that eventually they cave and basic human rights can prevail. (Basic human rights in this case being more people covered with health insurance due to the ACA). Rob
Alan, I can't say this being 100% certain but my gut instinct is that the Republicans are going to have to knuckle under on this one. Something I'm grateful for is the polls continue to show that Americans are blaming the Republicans for the government shutdown....
Yes, I know that most people blame the Republicans, and they are to blame for part of the problem, although the Democrats have been determined to force the shutdown in order to put their people, including the President, on TV a hundred times a day blaming the Republicans. The fact that most people fall for it is one of the great shames of our country.
Today, a CNN reporter asked Harry Reid why he would reject a Republican plan to fund the National Institute of Health which would allow many children to continue cancer treatments. He replied "Why would I?" and then continued on in the vein of Republicans this, Republicans that, damn Republicans, etc., and the only thing most people remember is the 'damn Republicans' schtick. If a Republican had responded in that manner we'd never hear the end of the War on Children.
See it for yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0lFyFJeZSY
I so hope this continues and puts pressure on the GOP so that eventually they cave and basic human rights can prevail. (Basic human rights in this case being more people covered with health insurance due to the ACA). Rob
I know we've had the 'basic human rights' discussion many, many times here so I won't elaborate other than to say that rights are not something conferred by governments, believing otherwise will ensure that you'll always feel victimized, and wrongly so.
I so hope this continues and puts pressure on the GOP so that eventually they cave and basic human rights can prevail. (Basic human rights in this case being more people covered with health insurance due to the ACA). Rob
You have what is in my opinion a fundamentally flawed conception of rights and liberties, that leads to evil.
Positive vs. Negative Liberties, as per Berlin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84wJlDC8--o&feature=player_embedded
http://www.wiso.uni-hamburg.de/fileadmin/wiso_vwl/johannes/Ankuendigungen/Berlin_twoconceptsofliberty.pdf
gimmethesimplelife
10-2-13, 8:32pm
I'm sorry Alan and Bae, to me access to health care is a basic human right as far as I am concerned. I am only very sorry that for most of us it has been granted through the workplace - I am so excited to see this basic human right become more independent of the workplace so that not as many people will be shackled to jobs they hate due to terror of lack of health insurance. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
10-2-13, 8:39pm
I am so excited to see this basic human right become more independent of the workplace so that not as many people will be shackled to jobs they hate due to terror of lack of health insurance
So they'll be shackled to jobs they hate due to terror of lack of money to pay their rent (homelessness) instead. There's a whole bunch of bills one works to pay, healthcare isn't even the most expensive.
try2bfrugal
10-2-13, 8:41pm
I'm sorry Alan and Bae, to me access to health care is a basic human right as far as I am concerned. I am only very sorry that for most of us it has been granted through the workplace - I am so excited to see this basic human right become more independent of the workplace so that not as many people will be shackled to jobs they hate due to terror of lack of health insurance. Rob
Yes, the whole tie with health insurance to employment is an archaic leftover form World War II wage controls. There is no logical reason for it to be in place today.
Bae - I guess all the other developed countries in the world are pure evil, because they have health care as a basic human right plus often many other social support programs lacking in the U.S.
Bae - I guess all the other developed countries in the world are pure evil,...
That's not what I said, is it?
gimmethesimplelife
10-2-13, 8:47pm
Yes, the whole tie with health insurance to employment is an archaic leftover form World War II wage controls. There is no logical reason for it to be in place today.
Bae - I guess all the other developed countries in the world are pure evil, because they have health care as a basic human right plus often many other social support programs lacking in the U.S.+ 1,000,000 Exactly, especially your last sentence.....Rob
You have what is in my opinion a fundamentally flawed conception of rights and liberties, that leads to evil.
Positive vs. Negative Liberties, as per Berlin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84wJlDC8--o&feature=player_embedded
http://www.wiso.uni-hamburg.de/fileadmin/wiso_vwl/johannes/Ankuendigungen/Berlin_twoconceptsofliberty.pdf
So would you place the Constitution as a document of positive liberties - or negative liberties?
So they'll be shackled to jobs they hate due to terror of lack of money to pay their rent (homelessness) instead. There's a whole bunch of bills one works to pay, healthcare isn't even the most expensive.
I know there's some IRL, but also thought there were even people on this forum who were working ONLY for health care: because they have a pre-existing condition and could not get any health insurance without a job. Otherwise, they could afford to retire, but didn't want to risk a car accident or bout with cancer or whatever to the tune of hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. That is one of the things the ACA fixes. We could debate the merits and detractions of the ACA, but the fact remains that the law was passed by Congress, signed by the President, challenged in the Supreme Court and upheld. If the law sucks, well it shouldn't be all that difficult in the next two years or by 2016 to get a whole bunch of people into the upper echelons of government who will repeal it, legally. Shutting down the federal government is helping no one, and saying "well it needed some trimming" is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If there needs to be trimming, fine, let's figure that out but doing it this way is totally disruptive and expensive.
It's my understanding that only National Parks, National Wildlife Refuges, and National Monuments are totally closed.
Incorrect. Forest Service, BLM, National Grasslands (part of USDA) are all closed.
Those campground run by concessionaires, some are still open.
Nope, there are not as many places to hunt now, not legally.
There will be some impact on tourism for sure, but hunters will still have places to hunt and rafters places to raft. I think most or all National Parks are closed to hunting anyway....
SOME? Yeah, try a $1 Billion a year industry. That is not chump change. And yes, the National Parks do not allow hunting. But some of the 401 sites are recreational areas, and seashores, and rivers which may allow some form of hunting. Most hunters that I know are going in the national forests or on private lands surrounding NF.
And it is not just national parks that are closed but national museums and centers, and other places too.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/contingency-plans (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/contingency-plans)
gimmethesimplelife
10-3-13, 12:12am
I know there's some IRL, but also thought there were even people on this forum who were working ONLY for health care: because they have a pre-existing condition and could not get any health insurance without a job. Otherwise, they could afford to retire, but didn't want to risk a car accident or bout with cancer or whatever to the tune of hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. That is one of the things the ACA fixes. We could debate the merits and detractions of the ACA, but the fact remains that the law was passed by Congress, signed by the President, challenged in the Supreme Court and upheld. If the law sucks, well it shouldn't be all that difficult in the next two years or by 2016 to get a whole bunch of people into the upper echelons of government who will repeal it, legally. Shutting down the federal government is helping no one, and saying "well it needed some trimming" is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If there needs to be trimming, fine, let's figure that out but doing it this way is totally disruptive and expensive.I agree. If changes need to be made to ObamaCare, fine, let's roll it out and see what the glitches and bugs are and go from there to improve it. I wasn't around in 1965 when Medicare rolled out, and I know that was a much less less hi tech time, but I'm guessing that major roll out was not without its bugs and glitches, too. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
10-3-13, 1:24am
If changes need to be made to ObamaCare, fine, let's roll it out and see what the glitches and bugs are and go from there to improve it.
If I believed benign course corrections were possible in institutions as rigid, and ossified, and corrupt, and unaccountable as the U.S. govt. without massive pressure being applied, well then I'd have a very different view of how things worked wouldn't I :). Not that I don't' favor an experimental approach to life, but there is just no point in imagining institutions that can't do it can. Perhaps the lack of course correction for anything is the scariest thing imaginable.
It will roll and we'll be stuck with it good, bad, or ugly. I do think the government shut down is silly.
Otherwise, they could afford to retire, but didn't want to risk a car accident or bout with cancer or whatever to the tune of hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. That is one of the things the ACA fixes.
The ACA fixed the preexisting conditions thing, it doesn't fix medical bankruptcy. And I'm not sure it caps out of pocket maximums for out of network providers, which of course would leave open the door for crushing medical bills (even capped out of pocket maximums are too much for many).
If the law sucks, well it shouldn't be all that difficult in the next two years or by 2016 to get a whole bunch of people into the upper echelons of government who will repeal it, legally.
Maybe if you just mean voting for Republicans and that they will still oppose it. But it seems we get a lot of bad policy that we can't easily turn around. For instance: we get outsourcing of jobs, but we can't get any momentum to stop it.
So they'll be shackled to jobs they hate due to terror of lack of money to pay their rent (homelessness) instead. There's a whole bunch of bills one works to pay, healthcare isn't even the most expensive.
Yes, living in fear of not having the ability to provide for one's basic human needs is immoral.
Incorrect. Forest Service, BLM, National Grasslands (part of USDA) are all closed.
Those campground run by concessionaires, some are still open.
Nope, there are not as many places to hunt now, not legally.
...
LJ, I'm not sure of your source, but the National Forests and BLM lands are still open for recreation, even though their offices are closed.
"National Forest and BLM lands, he says, "would nearly be impossible to close because there are so many access points. Secondly, those lands are open to a wide range of public activities."
http://www.npr.org/2013/10/03/228719015/national-parks-close-as-other-public-lands-stay-open
"U.S. Forest Service stations, information offices and programs are closed, but recreation (such as hiking) on the forests remains open. Many of the campgrounds were closed for the season prior to the government shutdown. Many of the other campgrounds that stay open during hunting season are still open, if they are operated by concessionaire. Campgrounds without a gate would remain available for use."
http://www.oregonlive.com/travel/index.ssf/2013/10/us_forest_service_national_par.html
flowerseverywhere
10-3-13, 9:37am
Yes, living in fear of not having the ability to provide for one's basic human needs is immoral.
I thought about this statement and I am not sure I agree with you 100%. People work hard to be able to own a nice house in a good neighborhood, buy good food, and save for a rainy day. Others show less personal responsibility. What I find so crazy about all of this is many who complain think nothing of going out to eat a few times a week, drive nicer cars than I ever did, drink alcohol etc. yet don't want to pay for healthcare. It is a service, with many people who work hard to provide it. There is a huge spectrum of people in all kinds of circumstances so broad generalizations don't fit, and many people have tried to do the right thing and in the old insurance world were priced out or were denied insurance altogether no matter how hard they were willing to work. the basic problem I think with healthcare and many things are all the middlemen. If you could go to the md and pay for a visit with cash, it would remove all the people in between that need to be paid. Insurance companies have to support huge buildings full of workers with telephones, computers etc. MD offices have staff specifically to deal with insurance companies, and much time is spent figuring out what is covered, complex billing and referrals. It is all just so complicated. Although I disagree with many of the positions and tactics of the tea party, I can at least understand the basic premise that a system cannot give everything to everybody. One only need to look at some of the European countries to see their budget woes and realize that most systems have some flaws that are causing countries to have severe financial woes. All of this posturing is hiding the really big problem, we have to get our financial houses in order, from the citizens house to the county, state, up to the White House. I don't think this is the way to do it, but we at least have to face up to the reality that living on borrowed money is not very smart.
Posted by Alan:
"The republicans, being reasonable kidnappers, offered to only cut off 4 fingers and a foot of the hostage if the democrats give in to their ransom demands. Said Alan, What do the democrats want? The whole hostage? Without giving us anything? We offered not to stomp on the dead body and drag it though the streets? The fact that the hostage has been 'damaged' was the democrats fault cause...cause...they should have paid us some ransom! Gee...it's sooo unfair that people blame us!"
!Splat!
Posted by Alan:
"The republicans, being reasonable kidnappers, offered to only cut off 4 fingers and a foot of the hostage if the democrats give in to their ransom demands. Said Alan, What do the democrats want? The whole hostage? Without giving us anything? We offered not to stomp on the dead body and drag it though the streets? The fact that the hostage has been 'damaged' was the democrats fault cause...cause...they should have paid us some ransom! Gee...it's sooo unfair that people blame us!"
!Splat!
LOL Peg, I've always admired your ability to bypass reason, no matter how pervasive, and entertain us with outrageous, oftentimes hilarious hyperbole (or is it satire? I often can't tell).
Good job! :+1:
Incorrect. NPR is wrong: http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/contingency-plans When you look at the contingency plans, most of the BLM folks are furloughed. All visitor centers within BLM are closed as of today. Forest Service lands are closed. If you go on them you are doing so illegally.
From the USDA Forest Service Site:
Due to the lapse in agency funding, the sale of all types of permits (i.e., recreation, firewood, forest products, mineral materials for example) are suspended, recreation.gov reservations are suspended, and all federally owned recreation sites are closed. All offices are closed. These services will be available once funding is restored.
Law enforcement, fire suppression, and other essential services will continue without interruption.
This web site will remain available for public safety announcements and updates such as for wildfire, floods, and so forth. We will attempt to make timely updates about public health and safety on these web pages as appropriate. We sincerely regret this inconvenience.
And I would not want to be hiking in the forests right now anyway. TOO many near misses from hunters even when you wear bright orange and talk loudly. No thanks. Give me trails in the urban areas right now (except everything is a soppy mess as we have had rain for a week. Can't wait for the sun. It was only out for a couple hours today.
So, the government has been shut down?
I haven't noticed.
flowerseverywhere
10-3-13, 11:30pm
So, the government has been shut down?
I haven't noticed.. Lucky you. I have a son furloughed out of work and a brother in law working at a VA serving veterans who don't know when their next paycheck will come.
gimmethesimplelife
10-3-13, 11:36pm
. Lucky you. I have a son furloughed out of work and a brother in law working at a VA serving veterans who don't know when their next paycheck will come.And I know a lot of folks out of work now, too. It is not just federal government workers and contractors. Also due to the National Parks being closed, the concessionaire employees - the front desk clerks, restaurant employees, housekeepers, etc. are all out of work now, too. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
10-4-13, 12:08am
Unfortunately I've had to go to work. I could have really used a good furlough, alas I don't work for the government.
flowerseverywhere
10-4-13, 9:03am
Unfortunately I've had to go to work. I could have really used a good furlough, alas I don't work for the government. or even better you might have to go to work and not know if you will get paid. You can bet the mortgage company is still expecting to get paid as well as the taxman and don't forget you have to put gas in the car, buy groceries maybe pay for childcare and keep the lights on.
ApatheticNoMore
10-4-13, 11:37am
Yea I'm just being annoying at this point :). I don't think it needs much debate that if one needs every penny for survival being without a paycheck hurts (ALTHOUGH it seems in most states they can go on unemployment and if this is true, does it really hurt that much?) Unemployment isn't all that generous, but surely it hurts no more than the average bout of unemployment and actually probably MUCH less as it is without the psychological uncertainty of whether one will ever work again - which is THE major psychological pain of unemployment - the government is unlikely to stay closed forever afterall.
http://money.cnn.com/2013/10/01/news/economy/shutdown-federal-unemployment-benefits/index.html
Meanwhile I think many of us would gladly trade a little more time for a little less money if the opportunity arose, and not just decades from now when we are retired or whatever, but in the here and the now we actually live in. Sequester me a few days a month :) This shutdown is a little more unknown and uncertain (how long it will last I have no clue), but there wasn't a time I heard of days being cut back for government employees, they now get a couple extra days off a month, that I wasn't kinda jelly (jealous).
Rent would still be due for me if I was furloughed, and taxes well NO INCOME = NO TAXES pretty much so no I would not have to continue to pay taxes if furloughed (they aren't taxing the money they aren't paying them are they?). Although they do tax unemployment benefits. Oh well .. hi ho, hi ho ...
Yossarian
10-4-13, 12:30pm
So would you place the Constitution as a document of positive liberties - or negative liberties?
Negative. Do you think otherwise?
This is part of the reason I stopped coming on these forums. The snarky comments. Really folks, the OP was talking about something different:
Well, my son with two small children is about to be furloughed. Thank goodness we can help him if need be. Of course that will take money we had earmarked for discretionary spending but i am happy to give things up for my grandkids. All he wants to do is go to work, do a good job and support his family. What will people do? And why is this necessary?
I guess I will stick to the financial forums only. Getting into Public Policy (even though I work for the public) doesn't work for me.
gimmethesimplelife
10-4-13, 1:29pm
This is part of the reason I stopped coming on these forums. The snarky comments. Really folks, the OP was talking about something different:
I guess I will stick to the financial forums only. Getting into Public Policy (even though I work for the public) doesn't work for me.Ya gotta kind of have a thick skin I think to wander into Public Policy - that or a very strong personal belief in what you are posting, such as I do with health care issues. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
10-4-13, 1:43pm
If we keep saying it's always better to be working than not, and that more money is always better than getting some time off (even when we are virtually guaranteed we will get our jobs back eventually), how are we ever going to get more free time?
Now they may not openly say so, but frankly if the people in my office were to not have to work without pay for a few days, I'd bet a lot of them would secretly be quite happy about it. Why do I think so, oh just a feel shall we say. It's not a happy vibe they give off coming to work around here. I don't start anything at work, not even complaining, I mainly just observe quietly like I always do.
But I agree everyone just wants to fight around here lately, it's pretty draining. Even if someone is just stating a self-evident truth (SOME, KEYWORD *SOME*, not *ALL* but *SOME*, I didnt' even claim it was the majority because really how would I know, people are probably happy to get the time off - why is that even controversial?).
Negative. Do you think otherwise?
Unless I misunderstand the concepts entirely, yes.
If we keep saying it's always better to be working than not, and that more money is always better than getting some time off (even when we are virtually guaranteed we will get our jobs back eventually), how are we ever going to get more free time?
Now they may not openly say so, but frankly if the people in my office were to not have to work without pay for a few days, I'd bet a lot of them would secretly be quite happy about it. Why do I think so, oh just a feel shall we say. It's not a happy vibe they give off coming to work around here. I don't start anything at work, not even complaining, I mainly just observe quietly like I always do.
But I agree everyone just wants to fight around here lately, it's pretty draining. Even if someone is just stating a self-evident truth (SOME, KEYWORD *SOME*, not *ALL* but *SOME*, I didnt' even claim it was the majority because really how would I know, people are probably happy to get the time off - why is that even controversial?).
I quit going to work years ago. I highly recommend it. It did take some planning though.
And Ive also helped my kids for time to time. I figure that's part of being a parent. If that cost me some of my play money, so be it. Hopefully they are old enough now to not need any more assistance. But its always will be there for them in an emergency.
I quit going to work years ago. I highly recommend it. It did take some planning though.
And Ive also helped my kids for time to time. I figure that's part of being a parent. If that cost me some of my play money, so be it. Hopefully they are old enough now to not need any more assistance. But its always will be there for them in an emergency.
Don't disagree with your parental approach, DMC, but I am curious about something. What happens when those people who need assistance in a similar manner to your kids, simply don't have a parent with play money to assist? Who helps then? How should that need of assistance be managed in society?
Don't disagree with your parental approach, DMC, but I am curious about something. What happens when those people who need assistance in a similar manner to your kids, simply don't have a parent with play money to assist? Who helps then? How should that need of assistance be managed in society?
I have no problem helping those truly in need. But, like my kids I don't expect it to be an ongoing flow of money. I expect them to make good choices. An illness keeping them from work is understandable. But I also expect them to live below their means at least a little bit so missing a few days is not an emergency.
Having a population living on handouts from the government may be great for those who control the purse strings. But wouldn't it be better to encourage them to be on their own. I saw a report where there was a company looking for employee's in the Chicago area. The pay was $12 to $13 an hour, and there was raises after training. The problem at the time was thats not much more than unemployment, and they couldn't find enough people to hire. Most would rather sit at home and draw unemployment for two years. Then they would worry about getting a job.
Generational poverty is becoming a lifestyle. You learn how to get housing and food stamps and whatever else is available. You live like your parents and friends so you see nothing wrong with this.
gimmethesimplelife
10-5-13, 1:36pm
I have no problem helping those truly in need. But, like my kids I don't expect it to be an ongoing flow of money. I expect them to make good choices. An illness keeping them from work is understandable. But I also expect them to live below their means at least a little bit so missing a few days is not an emergency.
Having a population living on handouts from the government may be great for those who control the purse strings. But wouldn't it be better to encourage them to be on their own. I saw a report where there was a company looking for employee's in the Chicago area. The pay was $12 to $13 an hour, and there was raises after training. The problem at the time was thats not much more than unemployment, and they couldn't find enough people to hire. Most would rather sit at home and draw unemployment for two years. Then they would worry about getting a job.
Generational poverty is becoming a lifestyle. You learn how to get housing and food stamps and whatever else is available. You live like your parents and friends so you see nothing wrong with this.I have thought about what you have posted here and I don't entirely disagree with you. I myself am against generations of people doing nothing and collecting welfare checks. If you have followed my posts you will notice that I am going back to school full time in January and am hoping the Medicaid will be a one or two year thing for me at most, with myself hopefully being forced onto the exchanges due to income growth - a good thing. I also have mentioned how in Austria, where I have family, one is entitled to all kinds of social welfare one can't get here in the US - BUT BUT BUT there is the expectation that you contribute something to society somehow. Sitting on your butt collecting checks does not cut it there for very long and you will get cut off most of the benefits if you don't contribute somehow. I don't have a problem with that at all, and it amazes me that when I discuss social welfare with Americans, this is the picture they get - sitting on your butt doing nothing and getting checks. This is not what I am talking about at all! Seriously.
That being said, I'm glad you are willing to help out your kids if they need it and I can understand that you don't want the assistance to be ongoing. I get that. What I would say in response is that the youth of today don't seem to be having the opportunities to launch into a fairly stable world of rising wages over time where they can save and invest and do all those wonderful things that tend to make for financial stability. I'm not criticizing you here, ok? I'm just saying that for those of us not considered young anymore, the world was a different place when we were young and I don't hold it against you that you seem to have made the most of it - good for you and I mean that sincerely. I guess I'm saying - things have changed, and when I deal with conservatives I often don't seem to get the sense that they grasp this. But bravo to you overall. And I hope my definition of social welfare is a little bit clearer with this post. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
10-5-13, 3:43pm
I don't believe most people have a desire to do nothing (don't confuse my desire for a furlough from a job I dislike with wanting to do nothing). But who would do the distasteful jobs? I believe if truly necessary they'd mostly get done, though it depends, trash would get collected, toilets would likely get unclogged, but maybe noone would want to work in a mine - you know TRULY HORRIBLE jobs that give people health problems and so on, but that's what the robots are for. :)
But some people are just hopelessly lazy? Yea. And you can hate on them if you like, they sure are annoying, oh don't get me started on how annoying they are! But I don't think they represent a particularly large percentage of the population at all. They aren't even the "entitled" people I sometimes think about with advanced degrees who throw away opportunities, because those people usually do do some work and are productive even in a conventional sense to some degree, they just don't own their choices. The people who want to do nothing are kind of a rarity.
IOW people don't need to be ruled by iron fists of any sort. People don;t need to faced with cruel consequences in order to do anything - like even maintain a half functioning society - you know one where the trash gets collected (though of course it should mostly be composted anyway :)).
So now it's "about pride". Get your messaging straight, boyz.
Representative Dennis A. Ross, a Florida Republican who was also elected in the 2010 Tea Party wave, said the party risked losing a fight over the scale of government while waging a quixotic war against the health care law. Though much of the government is shut down, he said, the Affordable Care Act, which is financed by its own appropriations, is moving forward unimpeded.
“Republicans have to realize how many significant gains we’ve made over the last three years — and we have, not only in cutting spending but in really turning the tide on other things,” Mr. Ross said. “We can’t lose all that when there’s no connection now between the shutdown and the funding of Obamacare.”
“I think now it’s a lot about pride,” he said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/us/politics/in-an-upside-down-week-some-conservatives-find-favor-for-government.html?hp&_r=0
Well, I was supposed to spend the day at a severe weather spotter training class put on by the National Weather Service, but at the last minute, it was called off because of the shutdown. Hilariously, we only found out about that second-hand, as the email and web site also had their plug pulled.
Yay...
So I spent the day routing emergency radio traffic, outside the auspices of the federal government.
http://www.ktnv.com/news/local/Lake-Mead-Property-Owners-Forced-Out-Until-Gov-Shutdown-Ends-226557661.html?lc=Smart
Meanwhile, in my little county, the Federal folks are still busily trying to block off *county* roads, and beaches owned by the *county* and the people of the State of Washington. Apparently the yahoos the Feds sent out here at great expense to close our national park are untrained in the art of map reading.
Meanwhile, in my little county, the Federal folks are still busily trying to block off *county* roads, and beaches owned by the *county* and the people of the State of Washington. Apparently the yahoos the Feds sent out here at great expense to close our national park are untrained in the art of map reading.
As applied in my neck of the woods this has been absurd. They barricaded the parking lot for the local national rec area. All that did is make it inconvenient and cause people to park on the street. What money does it cost to leave a parking lot open? It cost more to ship in the big logs to block the way (simply closing the gate apparently wasn't enough). Plus they had a ranger hovering over the entrance. We never see them when the park is open, but somehow we are saving money to have them here when it is closed? The park still has plenty of people in it - it has like 10 other access points via trails - so I don't know what they think they accomplished. This seems more about being spiteful than actual budget issues.
The park still has plenty of people in it - it park has like 10 other access points via trails - so I don't know what they think they accomplished.
Oh, here they warned us they would be ticketing anyone who dared trespass on park lands, and sent over some guys with guns to guard over the place.
The park looks like this, you can see there is plenty to guard:
http://www.simply-san-juan.com/images/american-camp-historical-park-trail-san-juan-islands-washington.jpg
They are just trying to justify their jobs. They don't want anyone to think that maybe we don't need so many government employee's.
They now are just on paid vacation. I don't understand that either.
It does seem a little unfair that the Fed employees get back pay and all the businesses subject to the trickle down, like the tourist businesses, get nada.
I have wondered if the illegal pottery hunters in Utah have dusted off their backhoes and are doing a little "exploring" in the endless acres of BLM land. http://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/when-the-cats-away-environmental-enforcement-takes-a-hit
The entire shut down is ridiculously stupid. Boehner preserving his role at the expense of our economy. What an a$$.
Boehner preserving his role at the expense of our economy.
Well, if our economy is based on the federal government providing jobs and $$$ to the citizens, I think we have bigger long-term problems on the horizon.
Might be better to tear it all down now while there is something left to rebuild with, as per Derrick Jensen...
Oh, I know Derrick. A more gloom and doom dude I have never met. Boehner just wants to preserve his Speakership, so he's bending to the gang of 30, as is the bulk of the GOP in The House. Truly buffoonish. Perhaps this will wake the moderate in the GOP.
Our economy is based upon economic growth, by whomever provides the most opportunity. I prefer a steady state economic system, so I view growth as damaging, as a generality. Seems to me that the bulk of our economy is built upon private sector growth. The gov't has assumed a large role in keeping that going, which is logical in the short term. Still a bad model.
Once Boehner either gets a backbone or is deposed, perhaps the lunatic Tea Partiers will slink home to their regressive states and turn back into the trolls that they are.
. Lucky you. I have a son furloughed out of work and a brother in law working at a VA serving veterans who don't know when their next paycheck will come.
My VA disability check came in right on schedule via direct deposit. So I think disabled vets will continue to receive their pensions and all VA benefits. The VA hospitals are still opened and I haven't heard anything about them be short-staffed as of yet. However the VA employees aren't getting paid but will receive their back pay once the govmint opens back up.
ApatheticNoMore
10-7-13, 2:08am
Well Social Security checks are going out as I understand it. Because if the Tea Party dare messed with those they'd have an old person's riot on their hands (yea there's long term bipartisan attempts to gut SS but noone is going to immediately start withholding the checks).
Meanwhile the military is open again -even the civilian workers, because it's bipartisan. Yes some social programs will be held hostage but the military continues - furlough is over. What you didn't really expect the "anti-government" types to apply that to the military did you?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/10/06/pentagon-orders-400000-furloughed-civilian-employees-back-to-work/
Yes some social programs will be held hostage
There may be technical reasons for some of it but whenyou see that the letsmove.gov website is still up but the amberalert.gov website is down it makes me think there is more to it than just what is being held hostage. Still looks like an attempt to incite a reaction is mixed in there somewhere too.
flowerseverywhere
10-7-13, 10:32am
There may be technical reasons for some of it but whenyou see that the letsmove.gov website is still up but the amberalert.gov website is down it makes me think there is more to it than just what is being held hostage. Still looks like an attempt to incite a reaction is mixed in there somewhere too.. It seems to me that the more I watch the news that there is a lot of game playing going on. Of course we all think government should rein in spending and cut fraud and waste. Isn't that the base of most people's simple lives? It is the method that is ridiculous. With real people getting hurt. Think of small businesses near a lot of government workers who see a downturn in business. Just stupid
At this point it seems to me like both parties are backed into a corner with no escape contingency to save face. Who ever backs down not only looses the budget battle but admits it's strategy and maybe the entire platform it represents is weak. As sad as it seems, I don't think it is about the budget or people's welfare anymore, but about winning or loosing. One thing I see as a bargaining point is the medical device tax that is a part of the ACA, but doesn't make good sense to me. It is probably too much compromise for one party and not enough for the other, but would be a reasonable escape valve.
iris lilies
10-7-13, 10:50am
. It seems to me that the more I watch the news that there is a lot of game playing going on. Of course we all think government should rein in spending and cut fraud and waste. Isn't that the base of most people's simple lives? It is the method that is ridiculous. With real people getting hurt. Think of small businesses near a lot of government workers who see a downturn in business. Just stupid
We aren't goign to "rein in spending" without a lot of "real people" getting hurt.
ApatheticNoMore
10-7-13, 11:29am
I think it will probably hurt the country economically especially long term (the obvious), but ... well this country does need to be taken down economically (and thus hopefully otherwise) more than a peg or two, it's mis-ruled the world in so many ways for more than a couple decades - it needs to cede some power to the rest of the world. If you were doing scientific research here say, would you put up with your paycheck being randomly withheld willy nilly in partisan battles? Now career wise you might decide the grass is greener elsewhere .... (not because every single thing and everyone in this country is bad, but just for your career you know ...) The government shut down is not the only thing that will lead to economic decline, so the NSA destroyed the U.S. cloud market and long term maybe much of U.S. technology. Besides nothing truly creative in general comes of a police state long term. Yea that's the future :)
There's politics on both sides of it in what is kept open and what is not, some things are likely closed for maximum effect. I'm not one of those "it's all bad" people. Because it's slowing a few things that need to be stopped like some trade agreements (my main issue there is political control and sovereignty not trade as such) but long term it will reduce the country economically.
flowerseverywhere
10-7-13, 3:27pm
We aren't goign to "rein in spending" without a lot of "real people" getting hurt.you are of course right. But a much more sensible way of doing it is to identify lowest performing workers to let go, identifying and eliminating redundancy, not willy hilly telling everyone to go home. And then to make it worse to pay the workers to not perform the services to then punish the taxpayers. I have been in several downsizings and usually the first to go are the problems.
Well, then, get taxes back up to where they were during the Nixon, Ford, or Reagan years.
Well, then, get taxes back up to where they were during the Nixon, Ford, or Reagan years.
Make sure to compare *effective* rates when you do that, and not just look at marginal rates... Which is tricky to do, as tax laws varied quite a bit between then and now.
As a customs broker, I'm seeing a different side of the shutdown than the average person.
Basic vanilla customs entries are getting through, since they are almost always paperless. However, if something is also subject to OGA (Other Government Agencies) oversight, then there are issues: FDA, EPA, CPSC, ATF, USDA, Fish & Wildlife are all operating with significantly reduced staff and/or handicapped because online tools, such as Fish & Wildlife's eDecs system are down. FDA here in Chicago has 45% of its staff on furlough. They can't communicate with the trade community directly, via the usual email list. They send notices to the local brokers association, who then distributes them on an email list.
As of last Monday, FDA Chicago had 2000 entries to review. Priority was being given to perishables expiring within 30 days and medically necessary items. So, the preserved food products from China a customer of mine brings in took 5 days to get FDA clearance (they were already released by CBP), but the latex gloves another customer brings in were released within 24 hours
The big problem is EPA. Over 85% of their staff was furloughed. There is no one to deal with imports. Period.
I can't tell you how many people, both customs brokers and importers, rely on the internet version of the HTSUS (Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the US) - that's part of the monster book you might remember me posting pictures of that before my exam. They have NO paper copy in their offices. The International Trade Commission's website is down for the count. These brokers/importers were dead in the water. Several companies in either international trade resource publishing or electronic providers of such data (through a subscription service) provided PDFs of the entire 3500 page HTS free, you just had to cough up your name and email address.
Export/import licenses are not be issued, and a whole host of other things. From a trade website:
1. Fish & Wildlife Service (FWS) - is open and processing shipments. All Declarations must be processed manually as the Electronic Declarations web site is down.
2. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) - personnel are not available to process Notices of Arrival of Pesticides and Devices Form 3540-1. National Customs Broker and Forwarders Association of America (NCBFAA) is in communication with U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) and EPA for guidance
3. U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) - delays are possible as Import Operations will remain open with limited resources to continue to perform critical functions: Entry review, field examinations, sample collections, compliance, exports, and destructions.
4. Steel License Office - is closed and entries are being processed with temporary license number to be used is "STEELX103".
5. Exchange Rate - receipt of currency exchange rates may be interrupted/sporadic. Entries should be prepared using the last applicable rate available until regular processes resume. Entries should be corrected before the filing of entry summary, where possible. For entry summaries not able to be corrected, we will work with CBP to find the most efficient process including possible correction at liquidation.
6. Tariff Rate Quota Entries - these entries are automatically put on hold by the CBP system. Until automated processing resumes, CBP has instructed the ports to manually release the entries and suspend liquidation for ultimate liquidation at the proper rate.
7. Tariff Preference Levels - the International Trace Commission (ITC) OTEXA license system is down. In the interim a solution would be to file the entries as entry type code 01. If the license is available before finalization of the entry, the entry could be amended to entry type code 02. If not able to be corrected, a PEA would be filed to correct the entry.
8. The ITC World Wide Web site, at www.usitc.gov is down – access to the United States Harmonized Tariff Schedule (USHTS) can be obtained from Customs Info Global Data Mining. You can download your copy at: http://hub.am/17oA99a
9. Exports - U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) certificates that are required by the governments of importing countries as a condition for importation could be impacted.
This is severely impacting some businesses. They are paying extra for rail/ocean terminal storage while their shipments are stuck because of OGA issues. Others are getting charge backs from retailers due to late delivery of goods, although this has nothing to do with the importer. Walmart doesn't care if something isn't released due to the shutdown, even though there's not a danged thing the importer and/or customs broker can do.
CBP is actually one of the least affected agencies. Only about 6,000 of approximately 58,000 employees are furloughed (mostly administrative, folks at HQ in DC, and IT folks). Customs duties are the second largest source of revenue for the federal gov't, so you can be sure they want to keep that money flowing.
My retired dad called to tell me the Feds shut him down. I completely forgot that the forestry work he bids on is for is a Federal program. He and his partner were hoping to get a huge project finished before dad and mom head to OR for a few weeks to see my brother's family. Now the deadline will be extended and will probably overlap a couple of winter bids he got. At least that will mean he'll be able to hire a few Amish guys to get the jobs done once they can start up again.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/dk-production/images/51506/lightbox/TMW2013-10-09color.png?1380806450
We're still in a democracy, right?
We're still in a democracy, right?
Were we ever?
Were we ever?
Nope, purposely so.
ApatheticNoMore
10-8-13, 11:59am
I wouldn't mind trying a parliamentary system or something (not that I've given it much thought as it has zero chance of happening), but I think it's pretty obvious this way of running a government doesn't work. One of those for the historical dustbins I guess.
I feel for the folks on the trickle down from the shutdown, and not to be too selfish, but if we start defaulting on debt interest rates are going to rise. It will mean and extra risk to invest in the US and the government will have to pay an new premium for people to accept the risk of loaning us money. I'm a conservative investor and it is going to hit the NAV of my bond funds and I suspect will affect the stock market. Or it could be much worse if there is panic. I guess I will then be on the trickle down.
In the continuing game of "harass the locals", the Park Service last night strung a *steel cable* disguised with tape across a county beach access road - in a manner contrary to accepted road control practices and highly likely to cause injury. And threatened to ticket a county councilman who was inspecting.
Not federal land, county land.
http://www.islandguardian.com/archives/ig_NPS_ClosedParks-04.jpg
http://www.islandguardian.com/archives/ig_NPS_ClosedParks-07.jpg
Luckily, the Sheriff carries a good set of bolt cutters in his car. But this is getting old quick.
Some locals are grumbling that the county should put up a toll booth on the county side of the park entrance, and charge the hundreds of thousands of tourists a year that visit that national park some $$$ to compensate us for the wear and tear on our road system to access it, and for the costs of our emergency services that we provide to the park for free, or did until this week...
We signed up to volunteer for some USFS land restoration this coming weekend, and find out tomorrow if it's cancelled, again. The first time was for flooding. It may be too late to reschedule this year since the winter is coming. No idea if the money for supporting the project will still be there in 2014.
Colorado is paying its own National Guard troops to continue to work, so they can fix roads that desperately need fixing before winter. Some of this type of work is stuff only the military has the capacity to do, since it's a hurry-up temporary road in many cases: the kind they quickly build during warfare. The money that this is going towards was supposed to go toward building our own state firefighting aircraft fleet, so that we'd be less dependent on the fed's fleet during bad fire years such as 2012. No idea where that stands at the moment.
I have a friend who interviewed for a job at FDA but who obviously won't know where that stands until the shutdown ends. His grant money ends by Dec and he's not sure what he'll do if he doesn't have something lined up.
Various aspects of my work are not getting updated, or there isn't clarity because we have some things that need to be reported to the federal government.
I can't find it at the moment, but the things that were to be considered "non-essential" were outlined already before the shutdown. So no, it's not just political posturing. People could potentially die if they miss a tornado warning by the NWS, but will not die by failing to go on a hike in Grand Canyon. Less tangible things are lost with the latter, though, such as loss of tourist visits from foreign tourists, loss of business for small business owners impacted in various ways by the shut down, and on and on. Never mind the >$1 billion so far. Good job on that fiscal conservativeness.
Tradd and RosieTR, I appreciate your detailed explanations of what's happening in your immediate sphere.
It bears repeating because while the meme of the worthless bumbling bureaucrat has really taken hold in this country, the reality is that millions of intelligent dedicated people go to work every day for our city, county, state and federal governments so we can continue as the first world country that we are. Their workplaces include:
The National Science Foundation.
The National Institutes of Health.
The National Weather Service.
Social Security.
The Smithsonian.
The National Archives.
Security and Exchange Commission.
The National Transportation Safety Board.
NASA.
Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Federal Emergency Management Agency.
Department of the Interior.
State Department.
Interstate Commerce Commission.
Patent Office.
National Endowment for the Arts.
etc.
Does anyone really want to revert back to not having these? Because we're watching it happen due to a temper tantrum from the minority wing of the minority party. "The party of personal responsibility is not wanting to take responsibility for this one!" Jon Stewart/Daily Show 10/8/2013
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/republican-extremism-and-the-lessons-of-history-20131010
" The Republicans have now joined a relatively small number of major American political parties that became the captive of a narrow ideology and either jettisoned or silenced their more moderate elements. The Democratic Party suffered this fate in the 1840s and 1850s, when Southern slaveholders took command of the party's levers of power. So, temporarily, did the Republicans in 1964, when Barry Goldwater's presidential campaign claimed the party for extremists on the right, an augury of things to come. But today's Republicans, whatever their pretensions about channeling the Founding Fathers, are so contemptuous of American history and institutions that they cannot learn from even their own recent past."
I tuned into the BBC world service yesterday just in time to hear the words, "....a dangerous minority...who had tried to secure enough votes in congress to have him dismissed. When they failed to bring down the government through democratic means, they resorted to the use of force..."
Not our country -- but the parallels are frightening.
In a world where we spend a huge percentage of our public funds on our military, teaching the rest of the world (at the barrel of a gun) the superiority of a democratic system, how do we spin the hijacking of our government by a minority who, failing to overturn the policies they hate through democratic means, brings such suffering down on so many citizens until they get their way?
It's sad to me. It seems -- on the surface -- like we should be so much smarter than this.
From a friend...
Sedition: "If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both." Sounds about right.
"By force" Redfox...
Charging a member of Congress with sedition for lawfully exercising his/her vote in the House, and following the rules of order adopted by the body seems a bit extreme...
A slightly lighter look...
"So, imagine that the company you work for held a poll, and asked everyone if they thought it would be a good idea to put a soda machine in the break room. The poll came back, and the majority of your colleagues said "Yes," indicating that they would like a soda machine. Some said no, but the majority said yes. So, a week later, there's a soda machine.
Now imagine that Bill in accounting voted against the soda machine. He has a strong hatred for caffeinated soft drinks, thinks they are bad you you, whatever. He campaigns throughout the office to get the machine removed. Well, management decides "OK, we'll ask again" and again, the majority of people say, "Yes, let's keep the soda machine." Bill continues to campaign, and management continues to ask the employees, and every time, the answer is in favor of the soda machine. This happens, lets say... 35 times. Eventually, Bill says "OK, I'M NOT PROCESSING PAYROLL ANYMORE UNTIL THE SODA MACHINE IS REMOVED," so nobody will get paid unless management removes the machine. What should we do???
Answer: Fire Bill and get someone who will do the ****ing job.
Bonus: Bill tells everyone that he was willing to "negotiate" to come to a solution where everyone got their payroll checks, but only so long as that negotiation capitulated to his demand to remove the soda machine.
Bill is a ****ing jackass."
~Brian Krewson
Comedian
The comedian left out the part where management forced Bill to purchase sodas for himself, under penalty of firing, while providing wavers to favored departments and forcing Bill to subsidize his fellow employees who'd rather spend their snack money on Twinkies.
And even though he complied while advocating resistance, they still considered him a ****ing jackass.
One thing I just realized - there's probably an explanation out there - why is the TSA working? Do they get special consideration outside of a shutdown? Or are they being forced to work for no pay like many others are?
One thing I just realized - there's probably an explanation out there - why is the TSA working? Do they get special consideration outside of a shutdown? Or are they being forced to work for no pay like many others are?
Essential service. Probably working with no pay.
I've noticed that CBP is being slower with turning around paperwork for entries that have to have documents manually signed off on. Some of the admin types that would pass paperwork around, etc., aren't there, so the officers pretty much just sit at their desk plowing through huge piles of paperwork. They don't hit the mailbox where the paperwork is turned in as often as would be.
FDA releases are happening quicker. I don't know what to make of that!
Anything EPA-related is simply not getting through. Period. We have one customer whose cargo falls under EPA-oversight. It's just sitting at the port, accumulating tons of storage.
I'm scratching my head over the re-opening of certain national parks as long as the states agree to foot the bill. A number in Utah and the RMPN in Colorado are re-opening at the state's expense. But aren't the federal employees already receiving furlough pay? Is someone double dipping on this? I'm sure that there are certain operating expenses, like say gas for vehicles. But there is also a revenue loss if the parks are closed, not to mention the fact that the facilities probably get run down without maintenance.
One thing I just realized - there's probably an explanation out there - why is the TSA working? Do they get special consideration outside of a shutdown? Or are they being forced to work for no pay like many others are?
Most security, law enforcement, military, etc... services are still functioning as normal with many of the people work. No pay though - at least at the beginning. I imagine they with be back-payed once a budget is in place. We go try this every year in CA with weeks of no budget and no pay and cries that the world will end :-)
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