View Full Version : My experience with ObamaCare thus far.....
gimmethesimplelife
10-1-13, 9:45am
Well. Today is the day. October 1st, and the exchanges open. I have spent about forty minutes on it so far and was finally able to make an account but was not able to get on the exchange. I think this is to be expected - seriously. It's kind of like camping out for three days in front of Best Buy around Black Friday - you want to swoop down and be the first to get at what you want as you have no faith what you want will last that long. There's a part of me that wonders if this is all for real. Seriously. If this doesn't pan out or somehow is destroyed by the Republicans, I don't think I can morally or ethically remain in the United States - it would just be too much at that point. I'm hoping for the best. By the way, the exchange site is down now as I post this - I'm guessing from the number of folks trying to get signed up. Rob
iris lilies
10-1-13, 11:19am
...There's a part of me that wonders if this is all for real. Seriously. If this doesn't pan out or somehow is destroyed by the Republicans, I don't think I can morally or ethically remain in the United States - it would just be too much at that point. I'm hoping for the best.
That "part of you" is putting out here a ridiculous assertion that the main ACA site is being sabotaged. Stop it, it's silly.
Iris, I didn't get that assertion at all from Rob, rather that he worries that the entire program, Obamacare, will be terminated for whatever reason and his efforts are for naught. Rob, is that accurate?
gimmethesimplelife
10-1-13, 12:00pm
Iris, I didn't get that assertion at all from Rob, rather that he worries that the entire program, Obamacare, will be terminated for whatever reason and his efforts are for naught. Rob, is that accurate?Bingo! You got it KayLR. Rob
That "part of you" is putting out here a ridiculous assertion that the main ACA site is being sabotaged. Stop it, it's silly.
If they get through without a few hacking attempts or denial of service attacks, I'd be really surprised.
I wish we could just cut all the carp and have a universal, single payer system.
gimmethesimplelife
10-1-13, 12:52pm
I wish we could just cut all the carp and have a universal, single payer system.Me too....me too. Rob
It's not just the fed site. The IL exchange site is having issues, as well, local radio is reporting.
I figured it would be best to stay off the site today, because it might crash due to all the people trying to use it. Plus, if there are any glitches, they might be ironed out in a few days.
Well. Today is the day. October 1st, and the exchanges open. I have spent about forty minutes on it so far and was finally able to make an account but was not able to get on the exchange. I think this is to be expected - seriously. It's kind of like camping out for three days in front of Best Buy around Black Friday - you want to swoop down and be the first to get at what you want as you have no faith what you want will last that long. There's a part of me that wonders if this is all for real. Seriously. If this doesn't pan out or somehow is destroyed by the Republicans, I don't think I can morally or ethically remain in the United States - it would just be too much at that point. I'm hoping for the best. By the way, the exchange site is down now as I post this - I'm guessing from the number of folks trying to get signed up. Rob
2/3 of the government is controlled by the Democrat's, and we have drones attacks killing american citizens without trial. NSA spying on everyone without warrent's, American embassy's being attacked and brushed under the table. And Obamacare that was put together in backroom deals and voted on without most even knowing what was in it. But because Republicans are doing what the majority of the people that voted for them want, you again want to leave the country.
You have been leaving for quite a while. Let us know when you get there and how things are.
I wish we could just cut all the carp and have a universal, single payer system.
+1000
Not even looking at the site yet. (lalalalalala):confused:
(haven't had insurance in 4 years now - saved minimum of $30,000 in monthly premiums (not counting deductibles) by being healthy, good luck, and a lot of prayer that the kids wouldn't impale themselves in a tree - that really happened to our oldest when he was 5 and we had good insurance)
Looking forward to having insurance again but I can wait a few days or months until the sites are sorted out.
gimmethesimplelife
10-1-13, 4:16pm
2/3 of the government is controlled by the Democrat's, and we have drones attacks killing american citizens without trial. NSA spying on everyone without warrent's, American embassy's being attacked and brushed under the table. And Obamacare that was put together in backroom deals and voted on without most even knowing what was in it. But because Republicans are doing what the majority of the people that voted for them want, you again want to leave the country.
You have been leaving for quite a while. Let us know when you get there and how things are.If I may, two things stand out for me here.
A. Given everything you have mentioned here, perhaps you can understand why it's so important to have some humanity thrown your way, in this case the ACA, and
B. I've read online over 70% of Americans do not want the government shut down. So at the moment anyway, the Republicans look worse. If you were to mention the numbers polling for Americans favoring the ACA, the numbers would not look all that great, I admit this. The Obama Administration has done a piss poor job of educating the general public of the ins and outs of ObamaCare and for that I do hold them accountable. It's almost like he thought Hey, here's access to insurance, now leave me be and enjoy it. That message works for me as I have never really believed in any country anyway, and I've stated before citizenship to me is all about what's in it for me as far as a social welfare, what's the tax rate, and how much debt is there per capita.
When you think this way, you are not going to look down on something like ObamaCare.
Unfortunately for society, most Americans do not think this way and I will admit the reason I do is partially due to the fact that I was raised to see things this way, something for which I am very grateful.
Whether or not I leave, I'm not yet sure. Even if ObamaCare pans out I may leave anyway so that I don't have to work longer than I care to. To me, there is nothing at all wrong in doing such, to do so shows a great deal of common sense. But then again, iike I said, I was raised this way. Rob
and I've stated before citizenship to me is all about what's in it for me as far as a social welfare....
When you think this way, you are not going to look down on something like ObamaCare.
Unfortunately for society, most Americans do not think this way
I don't think that's unfortunate at all. We get that for you it's all about how much Free Cheese you can force others to buy you. But I'm glad the whole country doesn't think that way.
gimmethesimplelife
10-1-13, 4:27pm
I don't think that's unfortunate at all. We get that for you it's all about how much Free Cheese you can force others to buy you. But I'm glad the whole country doesn't think that way.No, its not about Free Cheese. It's about how much does society care about human life.....but I grant most Americans don't think this way. To get this kind of thinking you need to go to Western Europe, or to a lesser degree Canada, but I understand things are changing in Canada these days. Maybe a better example would be Australia and New England for English speaking examples. To care about the collective society as a whole is something America is not very good at overall, and there's nothing wrong for calling it on that. At least not in my view. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-1-13, 4:32pm
I don't think that's unfortunate at all. We get that for you it's all about how much Free Cheese you can force others to buy you. But I'm glad the whole country doesn't think that way.Came back to add - the "Free Cheese" as you call it - you would be eligible for it, too. And without the stigma to it that it has in America. In Western Europe this is not considered welfare, but rather the way a civilized society does things. And I have agreed with this thinking from about the age of 12 onwards. Rob
try2bfrugal
10-1-13, 5:25pm
Came back to add - the "Free Cheese" as you call it - you would be eligible for it, too. And without the stigma to it that it has in America. In Western Europe this is not considered welfare, but rather the way a civilized society does things. And I have agreed with this thinking from about the age of 12 onwards. Rob
I still don't get the way some people in the U.S. think universal care or any program a step towards it is some novel social experiment that will never pan out. Universal care is the norm in almost all developed countries except for the U.S. -
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/06/heres-a-map-of-the-countries-that-provide-universal-health-care-americas-still-not-on-it/259153/
The U.S. stands alone on issues like having 5% of the worlds population yet 25% of the world's prison population and health care costs that are many times higher than all other countries, universal care or not.
I just don't get why there isn't more empathy in the U.S. for lower income people instead of this lock them up and no free (or even marginally affordable) health care for you kind of attitude.
Well Rob I guess it was the different way we were raised. When I was a kid I was always expected to work and pull my own weight. I was told that if things didn't turn out the way that you had planned. Maybe you didn't plan very well. You saved for a rainy day and you invested your money for it to grow. We were charitable, but never expected anyone to take care of us. If someone was doing better than us, good for them. We didn't expect them to give part of their earnings to us.
You make choices and you have to live with them. No one else is out to get you. And no one should be expected to take care of you.
And we even had guns at an early age and except for a few birds, rabbits, and squirrels, no one got hurt.
You state that your only here because of what you can get. That's the free cheese. You have made a choice in your employment. But want others to subsidize you. I understand it, but don't understand your claiming the moral high ground when you just want someone else to pay your way.
I just don't get why there isn't more empathy in the U.S. for lower income people instead of this ... no free (or even marginally affordable) health care for you kind of attitude.
I don't think that's the case at all. Everyone I know believes in providing some kind of assistance. Of course, I don't know everyone, so there very well may be those kinds of people out there, but I don't think the view is prevalent.
The difference I was alluding to (and the one Rob seems to have no problem with) is the entitlement mentality, i.e. the degree to which people who want things but can't afford them should expect others to pay for them. It's one thing to look at the system in the abstract and say "how can we design this so it works for everyone." Few people would object to that. More people object when they perceive others to be manipulating the system for personal benefit. I personally prefer a system where people are motivated to be productive, not just see how much they can extract from others whenever they can't pay for what they want. I think that has been the national character for some time. We don't cotton to freeloaders.
Off the current vein of conversation, but here is something that happened this morning in my office that has me shaking my head:
A car has been disabled in our parking lot for a few days. One of the men who volunteer here talked to the owner yesterday, and he said he was working on getting it out of the parking lot. Ok. No biggie.
Today the owner came by the office to profusely apologize for the car still being here. He was very polite and well-spoken. He said this couldn't have come at a worse time. His employer just laid him and 2-3 other co-workers off last week because he was freaked out that he would "have to provide them ALL health care benefits." So he just cut them all loose. This poor man has a 2-1/2 yr old and now, a car with a cracked head---and no job. All because his boss wouldn't listen to explanations how it really works.
So...yes, the administration has done a poor job of educating the public how ACA is supposed to work, AND, there are too many talking heads out there giving anyone who will listen bad information.
... get there and how things are.
Things are actually really nice. Yes, like everywhere, there are problems, struggles, etc. BUT, at the end of the day, you know, it's actually just as nice living here in NZ as it is living in the US.
And, I would have stayed here had immigration decided that we could stay (policy change, so we can't). So, we're heading back to the US.
Luckily, DH is now juggling two interview processes (he's at step 3 of both of these), and just got an interview for a third job (first interview). So, we are excited that things are starting to sort out a bit.
I'm also glad that we can afford health care. I wrote in the other thread that before the exchange, we found a good coverage for our family for $335/mo, and then when I checked that same web site after the exchange opened, the price is now $270/mo. So, positives all around for us. Havent' checked the exchange yet because it was overloaded and I couldn't make the account, etc.
So, yeah, there we are.
try2bfrugal
10-1-13, 6:27pm
We don't cotton to freeloaders.
Freeloaders! Off with their heads!
I guess that is one way to characterize close to 50 million people, one fifth of those children -
http://www.nclej.org/poverty-in-the-us.php
I am glad most other countries take a kinder view, and that the tide seems to be changing in the U.S. for the better starting with more affordable health care, especially for those hard workers who are trying to support themselves and maybe their families as well on minimum wage pay.
I don't think that's the case at all. Everyone I know believes in providing some kind of assistance. Of course, I don't know everyone, so there very well may be those kinds of people out there, but I don't think the view is prevalent.
The difference I was alluding to (and the one Rob seems to have no problem with) is the entitlement mentality, i.e. the degree to which people who want things but can't afford them should expect others to pay for them. It's one thing to look at the system in the abstract and say "how can we design this so it works for everyone." Few people would object to that. More people object when they perceive others to be manipulating the system for personal benefit. I personally prefer a system where people are motivated to be productive, not just see how much they can extract from others whenever they can't pay for what they want. I think that has been the national character for some time. We don't cotton to freeloaders.
This!
Things are actually really nice. Yes, like everywhere, there are problems, struggles, etc. BUT, at the end of the day, you know, it's actually just as nice living here in NZ as it is living in the US.
And, I would have stayed here had immigration decided that we could stay (policy change, so we can't). So, we're heading back to the US.
Luckily, DH is now juggling two interview processes (he's at step 3 of both of these), and just got an interview for a third job (first interview). So, we are excited that things are starting to sort out a bit.
I'm also glad that we can afford health care. I wrote in the other thread that before the exchange, we found a good coverage for our family for $335/mo, and then when I checked that same web site after the exchange opened, the price is now $270/mo. So, positives all around for us. Havent' checked the exchange yet because it was overloaded and I couldn't make the account, etc.
So, yeah, there we are.
Happy things are working out for you. I'm sure you'll land on your feet.
try2bfrugal
10-2-13, 12:42am
I suggest people here check out the exchange for their state and see if they are eligible for subsidized coverage -
"A survey last week by the Kaiser Family Foundation found that three out of four Californians who earn modest incomes and could buy government-subsidized private coverage wrongly believe they’re not eligible for federal assistance or they simply don’t know if they qualify.
The survey found only half of newly eligible low-income Californians are aware that they will qualify for expanded Medi-Cal in California — the government program for the poor."
http://www.scpr.org/programs/take-two/2013/10/01/33980/faq-navigating-covered-california-s-health-insuran/
Don't just believe the Fox News and Tea Party disinformation campaigns. Check it out for yourself and see. You might be pleasantly surprised.
try2bfrugal
10-2-13, 1:27am
I don't think that's the case at all. Everyone I know believes in providing some kind of assistance. Of course, I don't know everyone, so there very well may be those kinds of people out there, but I don't think the view is prevalent.
The difference I was alluding to (and the one Rob seems to have no problem with) is the entitlement mentality, i.e. the degree to which people who want things but can't afford them should expect others to pay for them. It's one thing to look at the system in the abstract and say "how can we design this so it works for everyone." Few people would object to that. More people object when they perceive others to be manipulating the system for personal benefit. I personally prefer a system where people are motivated to be productive, not just see how much they can extract from others whenever they can't pay for what they want. I think that has been the national character for some time. We don't cotton to freeloaders.
A few more interesting finds in regards to your freeloaders comment -
"Almost two-thirds of uninsured Americans have a full-time job, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation (http://kaiserfamilyfoundation.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/8488-key-facts-about-the-uninsured-population.pdf). A further 16 percent are employed part time.
The Department of Health and Human Services recently estimated (http://aspe.hhs.gov/health/reports/2013/MarketplacePremiums/ib_marketplace_premiums.cfm%20) that nearly six in 10 uninsured Americans could qualify for health coverage in the insurance market for less than $100 per person per month.
According to an analysis by the Urban Institute (http://www.urban.org/uploadedpdf/412267-america-under-aca.pdf), 28 million Americans would gain health insurance under Obamacare. Of these, eight million earn more than twice the poverty level of $47,100 for a family of four. A majority of those would get a subsidy to buy a plan.
As it turns out, the core Tea Party demographic (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/us/politics/15poll.html) — working white men between the ages of 45 and 64 — would do fairly well under the law. "
From the New York Times -
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/02/business/economy/why-the-health-care-law-scares-the-gop.html?partner=yahoofinance&_r=0
gimmethesimplelife
10-2-13, 1:40am
Well Rob I guess it was the different way we were raised. When I was a kid I was always expected to work and pull my own weight. I was told that if things didn't turn out the way that you had planned. Maybe you didn't plan very well. You saved for a rainy day and you invested your money for it to grow. We were charitable, but never expected anyone to take care of us. If someone was doing better than us, good for them. We didn't expect them to give part of their earnings to us.
You make choices and you have to live with them. No one else is out to get you. And no one should be expected to take care of you.
And we even had guns at an early age and except for a few birds, rabbits, and squirrels, no one got hurt.
You state that your only here because of what you can get. That's the free cheese. You have made a choice in your employment. But want others to subsidize you. I understand it, but don't understand your claiming the moral high ground when you just want someone else to pay your way.We were both raised very differently, I can see that now. I'm not saying that I am against the way you were raised per se - but I am against this kind of thinking. And I don't believe anyone is out to get me, either, I really don't understand where you deduced that?
To sum it up - I was raised to believe in the collective good of society and not so much that of the individual. Being raised in such a way, you don't mind being taxed much, as you understand that taxation is a price tag for living in a civilized society. You don't mind generous social welfare either - as everyone participates in it. Case in point - one of my relatives in Austria two years ago was granted a weeks stay at a health spa due to work stress - completely paid for by the government. This is not considered abuse of the system or gaming the system, and this person in America would be considered pushing upper middle class. There are many such other perks that are underwritten by the government, and everyone can get them at one time or another. I understand that this is not going to happen in America - which I think is so, so, so sad. I am grateful I chose not to see things the way most Americans do.
I don't really think the way you described being raised is wrong per se, but the thinking it can lead to seems to lead to the justification of inequalities in society, and that is something very much I am not OK with. Basically in many ways America has never really worked for me, and the latest is this government showdown which to me anyway, proves how little human life is valued in this country - due to the fact that it is over a law granting health insurance to more people. I don't see that as gaming the system - I see covering more people as taking care of the collective society, so to me a government shutdown over such really shows me how little the collective society means in America. And I don't see this as "someone taking care of me", I see it as a moral obligation to cover all citizens for the collective good of society.
So, really the way you think, at least as exhibited here, and the way I think are - to be put nicely - very widely divergent. I don't even think you are wrong per se - certainly I support your right to think this way - I just don't care for the kind of society this kind of thinking seems to produce. It just doesn't work very well overall for me. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-2-13, 1:57am
Well Rob I guess it was the different way we were raised. When I was a kid I was always expected to work and pull my own weight. I was told that if things didn't turn out the way that you had planned. Maybe you didn't plan very well. You saved for a rainy day and you invested your money for it to grow. We were charitable, but never expected anyone to take care of us. If someone was doing better than us, good for them. We didn't expect them to give part of their earnings to us.
You make choices and you have to live with them. No one else is out to get you. And no one should be expected to take care of you.
And we even had guns at an early age and except for a few birds, rabbits, and squirrels, no one got hurt.
You state that your only here because of what you can get. That's the free cheese. You have made a choice in your employment. But want others to subsidize you. I understand it, but don't understand your claiming the moral high ground when you just want someone else to pay your way.It's about much more to me than "free cheese". Its about the collective good of society and our duty to each other in continuing to make a civilized society work. In Western Europe, basically everyone subsidizes each other and there is a long list of social welfare benefits all can take advantage of, of which there is no stigma, no thoughts of no one should be expected to take care of you.
It goes much much much further than being here because of what you can get. For me, it's also about how much does society care about the collective good? How much does society value persons who are downtrodden for some reason? How much do we care about our fellow man/woman/child? Gotta tell you as far as in America, the answer for most seems to be not very much. I've got mine - go away and get yours. I'm not OK with that kind of thinking and never have been and hope never to be.
NOW AS FAR AS WORK GOES = I do believe to get all these perks one should be contributing some kind of value to society to justify the perks. I am not talking of sitting on your butt and collecting checks. If no work is available, I am not against able bodied folks planting trees or working at a food bank full time to justify their social welfare. Why is it that when many Americans hear of how I think, they seem to think I am OK with people doing nothing to collect checks? That's not in my line of thinking. One of my relatives in Graz, Austria is disabled and can't really do a standard office job or physical work but does stay at home watching children in the neighborhood and also does some painting of tacky touristy items for a program to keep her productive to some level to justify the generous checks she gets. I see nothing wrong with this arrangement.
As to folks getting something like food stamps here, the five months I was on them I was not required to work for them and (DONT DROP DEAD OF SHOCK HERE) I think that's wrong. I am not against a requirement to work at least P/T at a foodbank to justify collecting the foodstamps - I was getting $200 a month at the time and to me some work requirement to stay at this level, in some kind of environment such as a food bank - this would be fair and just in my line of thinking.
Something else I believe about ObamaCare - I would not be against ObamaCare covering herbal medicine, and I don't think it's wrong to require those of us with some yard space such as myself to grow a plot of herbs to donate to covering herbal medicine. Or maybe requiring a few hours a month of work at a public garden that grows herbs for herbal medicine. To me, to require such would be good for the collective good of society, and would run counter to the image of folks collecting checks/getting generous social welfare for nothing. Rob
"Gaming the system" related to healthcare suggests to me that you willingly get sick so that you can "cash in" on treatment.
So to "earn" the right to actually get treated for your condition under the current system without being considered a freeloader you have to:
a) Sign up for the golden handcuffs of employee-based insurance. Now you are tethered to your job, with little "incentive" for the "productivity" of entrepreneurship. You are a cog in the wheel, dreams dashed, because your family depends on Daddy Corp for affordable healthcare
b) Buy healthcare on your own through private companies. Oops. You had a diagnosis once that suggests to the profit-making insurance companies that you might actually COST them money. Sorry. No insurance for you. Or, yes, you "get accepted"! Happy day! You now have earned the privilege of paying more than your mortgage payment on a monthly basis for your insurance.
c) Go without healthcare. Why not "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and simply save up the money for a little rainy day of cancer or diabetes? You do have that American Dream of a McMansion--just go sell it. It MIGHT cover your medical expenses as long as you're not underwater on your mortgage.
Gee, now that Obamacare is here, I can't WAIT til I get sick so I can finally abuse the system and live off of you healthy taxpayers. Life is good!
gimmethesimplelife
10-2-13, 8:04am
"Gaming the system" related to healthcare suggests to me that you willingly get sick so that you can "cash in" on treatment.
So to "earn" the right to actually get treated for your condition under the current system without being considered a freeloader you have to:
a) Sign up for the golden handcuffs of employee-based insurance. Now you are tethered to your job, with little "incentive" for the "productivity" of entrepreneurship. You are a cog in the wheel, dreams dashed, because your family depends on Daddy Corp for affordable healthcare
b) Buy healthcare on your own through private companies. Oops. You had a diagnosis once that suggests to the profit-making insurance companies that you might actually COST them money. Sorry. No insurance for you. Or, yes, you "get accepted"! Happy day! You now have earned the privilege of paying more than your mortgage payment on a monthly basis for your insurance.
c) Go without healthcare. Why not "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and simply save up the money for a little rainy day of cancer or diabetes? You do have that American Dream of a McMansion--just go sell it. It MIGHT cover your medical expenses as long as you're not underwater on your mortgage.
Gee, now that Obamacare is here, I can't WAIT til I get sick so I can finally abuse the system and live off of you healthy taxpayers. Life is good!This. Yes. I get your points and very much agree! Rob
Yossarian
10-2-13, 10:51am
We need an icon for "going over your head".
It's not about who's covered. I'm on record for supporting single payer universal care. But no one owes you health care in the sense that others should be compelled at gun point (which is what the force of law and taxation really means) to pay for it when you demand it. I see it as a benefit that we collectively have decided that we want to give to others, and receiving it is a privilege of citizenship.
Again, most people support designing a rational, fair system. But I think personal initiative and responsibility should remain part of our national character. I don't think we should all adopt Rob's approach of just seeing what you can squeeze from the system, e.g. "citizenship to me is all about what's in it for me as far as a social welfare". Citizenship to me is about creating a fair and equitable society that provides opportunity and advancement for the most number of people.
YMMV.
ApatheticNoMore
10-2-13, 11:21am
Gee, now that Obamacare is here, I can't WAIT til I get sick so I can finally abuse the system and live off of you healthy taxpayers. Life is good!
Well if your income is too low you'll just end up on Medicaid where people are driving two hours to see doctors (if your income is low enough you don't even have a choice to benefit from subsidies on the exchanges - it's just Medicaid for you). But it's better than nothing? That may be. But ANYONE WITH AN OUNCE of sanity is going to choose the golden handcuffs and keep the employer provided medical care instead of that! I mean come now. Where's your revolution now? Not possible in a system where the main purpose was to satisfy the existing entities like the insurance companies, the hospitals, pharma. But Medicaid is what socialized medicine would look like? Uh I hope not, it's the lowest common denominator. I would hope it would be more Medicare. And that it wouldn't claw back from your estate if you are over 55 and use it.
I'm for single payer because it eliminates the greed factor of for-profit "care," which not only removes any incentive to actually heal people--it's much more profitable to keep them sick and on drugs indefinitely--but costs us twice as much as other countries pay for more effective treatment. And handcuffing people to their employers for healthcare is a terrible idea.
gimmethesimplelife
10-2-13, 11:37am
We need an icon for "going over your head".
It's not about whose covered. I'm on record for supporting single payer universal care. But no one owes you health care in the sense that others should be compelled at gun point (which is what the force of law and taxation really means) to pay for it when you demand it. I see it as a benefit that we collectively have decided that we want to give to others, and receiving it is a privilege of citizenship.
Again, most people support designing a rational, fair system. But I think personal initiative and responsibility should remain part of our national character. I don't think we should all adopt Rob's approach of just seeing what you can squeeze from the system, e.g. "citizenship to me is all about what's in it for me as far as a social welfare". Citizenship to me is about creating a fair and equitable society that provides opportunity and advancement for the most number of people.
YMMV.Please read my last few postings. I tried to make it clear that for me it is much more than what I can squeeze from the system - unless as in the case of Western Europe, pretty much it is everyone "squeezing from the system." And I don't think personal responsibility and initiative are bad things - they just feel out of place in a society that is so inequitable and is only getting more so since the economic meltdown. Were the deck not so stacked against the average person, I myself might buy into the concepts of personal responsibility and initiative - as a matter of fact, in some ways I have because I have been on public assistance for less then seventh months of my adult life overall - unless you consider Pell grants for college not taking responsibility and initiative.
I will grant my way of thinking is very different from yours. That does not make it any less valid, however. Just as my not agreeing with your thinking doesn't make your thinking any less valid, either. Whatever works for you, if it does not hurt me, is your thing. I merely mean to present an alternative view towards looking at these issues. I am not here to convert anyone and rest assured, at this late date, given what I have experienced and what life has taught me, I am beyond being converted myself. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-2-13, 11:44am
Yossarian - came back to add that you lost me a bit on fair and equitable. I hazard to guess a lot of folks out there who are not at the very top would agree that America is less fair and equitable than it once was. I also believe that how unfair and unequitable folks consider the US has at least partially to do with social class and where folks stand with that. Rob
Well if your income is too low you'll just end up on Medicaid where people are driving two hours to see doctors (if your income is low enough you don't even have a choice to benefit from subsidies on the exchanges - it's just Medicaid for you). But it's better than nothing? That may be. But ANYONE WITH AN OUNCE of sanity is going to choose the golden handcuffs and keep the employer provided medical care instead of that! I mean come now. Where's your revolution now? Not possible in a system where the main purpose was to satisfy the existing entities like the insurance companies, the hospitals, pharma. But Medicaid is what socialized medicine would look like? Uh I hope not, it's the lowest common denominator. I would hope it would be more Medicare. And that it wouldn't claw back from your estate if you are over 55 and use it.
I'll be gaming the system in that I have been moving enough money to cash that I won't have to show as much income per year. This will enable me to get the subsidies along with those who have to still work for a living. I'll get a very nice return on the cash just by the tax credits.
Some here want us to be more like Europe. How much longer till Europe goes bankrupt? What happens then when you have a population that expects the government to take care of them?
Yossarian - came back to add that you lost me a bit on fair and equitable. I hazard to guess a lot of folks out there who are not at the very top would agree that America is less fair and equitable than it once was. I also believe that how unfair and unequitable folks consider the US has at least partially to do with social class and where folks stand with that. Rob
Whats not fair? Whats holding you back?
Now I may think its not fair that I can't play golf like Tiger Woods, but that's life.
America is less fair and equitable than it once was.
Maybe it's less comfortable if you are unskilled labor, but I would not agree that it is less fair if you are gay, black, a woman, or entrepreneurial middle class.
I also believe that how unfair and unequitable folks consider the US has at least partially to do with social class and where folks stand with that.
Rob, we've beaten this one up pretty hard elsewhere so I am reluctant to rehash it here. But since I don't really buy into social class to start with I wouldn't know where to begin. Suffice to say I would base it on the system you would design before knowing when or where you would land in it. My personal view is that we provide a safety net floor but don't unduly inhibit activities that allow the whole system to rise and improve living standards.
ApatheticNoMore
10-2-13, 2:05pm
But since I don't really buy into social class to start with I wouldn't know where to begin.
I may buy into it. But you need good definitions not the arbitarary stuff floating around, someone is not suddenly poor because they don't have one thing they want (although healthcare is at least a basic fundemental thing - so I could see it as being part of a definition). And pretty much everyone who has to work for an employer for a living is working class in my book.
try2bfrugal
10-2-13, 2:52pm
IWhat happens then when you have a population that expects the government to take care of them?
They score higher than the U.S. on happiness and life satisfaction surveys?
http://unsdsn.org/happiness/
Or you could ask people in Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Norway, Belgium, Switzerland, Japan, and just about every other developed country if they would like to drop universal care and change to the U.S. model of the highest health care costs in the world, 37th ranked health care system by WHO and 28 million people uninsured.
Or ask the Heritage Foundation -
"Consider Heritage's "Index of Economic Freedom (http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking)," which measures how friendly countries are to business, investors, and property rights.
The countries that rank the highest on the list are: Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, Canada, Chile, Mauritius, Denmark, and the United States.
Of those ten [non-U.S.] countries, nearly every one has a universal healthcare system or mandates that individuals pay into medical savings accounts. Australia and Canada both have single-payer systems. Denmark's system is pretty much government controlled. Switzerland's system is similar in many ways to Obamacare. Among the top twenty nations on the list are Ireland, the U.K., Germany, Sweden, and Finland -- other countries that also have universal healthcare systems. "
From Universal Healthcare and Economic Freedom Go Hand in Hand -
http://www.demos.org/blog/universal-healthcare-and-economic-freedom-go-hand-hand
They score higher than the U.S. on happiness and life satisfaction surveys?
http://unsdsn.org/happiness/
Or you could ask people in Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Norway, Belgium, Switzerland, Japan, and just about every other developed country if they would like to drop universal care and change to the U.S. model of the highest health care costs in the world, 37th ranked health care system by WHO and 28 million people uninsured.
Yes, try to get to a developed country that has not recognized the value of universal health care and you might wind up like the subject of this New Yorker piece (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2013/10/millions-flee-obamacare.html?utm_source=tny&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=borowitz&mbid=nl_Borowitz+%28176%29).
try2bfrugal
10-2-13, 3:16pm
Yes, try to get to a developed country that has not recognized the value of universal health care and you might wind up like the subject of this New Yorker piece (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2013/10/millions-flee-obamacare.html?utm_source=tny&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=borowitz&mbid=nl_Borowitz+%28176%29).
Too funny. Thanks for posting.
I wish we could just cut all the carp and have a universal, single payer system.
+1
They score higher than the U.S. on happiness and life satisfaction surveys?
The Human Development Index has the US as #3 in the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
Gallup says the tops in happiness are Panama, Paraguay and El Salvador: http://www.gallup.com/poll/159254/latin-americans-positive-world.aspx#2
So I don't know what you really get from all that.
The Human Development Index has the US as #3 in the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
Gallup says the tops in happiness are Panama, Paraguay and El Salvador: http://www.gallup.com/poll/159254/latin-americans-positive-world.aspx#2
So I don't know what you really get from all that.
Actually, the Gallup poll measured positive attitude. That's different from happiness.
try2bfrugal
10-2-13, 4:39pm
The Human Development Index has the US as #3 in the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index
Gallup says the tops in happiness are Panama, Paraguay and El Salvador: http://www.gallup.com/poll/159254/latin-americans-positive-world.aspx#2
So I don't know what you really get from all that.
The Better Life Index has 13 countries ahead of the U.S. in life satisfaction -
http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/life-satisfaction/
The World Happiness Report 2013 didn't rank the U.S. in the top ten overall -
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/09/world-happiness-report-happiest-countries_n_3894041.html
Overall the U.S. was ranked 17th -
http://cir.ca/news/world-happiness-report-2013
The countries with the strongest social support programs tend to rank very high on most life satisfaction / happiness surveys. Look at where countries like Sweden and Norway rank. They are always at the the top of most of these surveys. In the 2013 Happiness Survey the top countries were Denmark, Norway, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Sweden. And they all have strong social support programs including some type of government supported, affordable health care.
On the Human Development Index, Australia and Norway rank higher than the U.S. and they have some form of universal health care, plus both countries are known for having minimum wage jobs people can actually live off on. Strong social service programs are not impediments to healthy economies.
gimmethesimplelife
10-2-13, 7:25pm
Whats not fair? Whats holding you back?
Now I may think its not fair that I can't play golf like Tiger Woods, but that's life.Seriously? You ask what's holding me back?
Certainly I'm nothing special and I'm not being singled out. What's holding me back is what's holding most people back these days. Rapidly rising prices, stagnant wages, health care spiraling out of control - though I have a fix for that one by going to Mexico as I have posted many times - and hopefully the ACA will slow down price increases but that remains to be seen. That fact that the money is sifting up to the top and the rest of us are getting less and less of the scraps. The fact that the fabled upward mobility of the US is now so non-existent for most of us that Denmark, a country with very high taxes that I very much approve of, has more upward mobility than the US does. As does Canada if you can handle the climate there. Certainly someone as knowledgeable as yourself - and there is no sarcasm here, you do seem very well read and intelligent - knows the truth of what I have posted here. Maybe you are at the top, I don't know? But if you are not, how could you not know this and not see this around you? Basically, what holds me back as is what America has become, just as this is what holds most of us back today. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-2-13, 7:30pm
Maybe it's less comfortable if you are unskilled labor, but I would not agree that it is less fair if you are gay, black, a woman, or entrepreneurial middle class.
Rob, we've beaten this one up pretty hard elsewhere so I am reluctant to rehash it here. But since I don't really buy into social class to start with I wouldn't know where to begin. Suffice to say I would base it on the system you would design before knowing when or where you would land in it. My personal view is that we provide a safety net floor but don't unduly inhibit activities that allow the whole system to rise and improve living standards.I was twelve when I understood about social classes and the basics of how they work in America. No one had to tell me anything - growing up poor yet being somewhat intelligent I was able to figure this out on my own. I bet you never ran across another 13 year old who would spend time at the library - this was in the days before the Internet - spending hours doing research comparison shopping their citizenship against other countries. But yes, I was thirteen when I started doing this. This is not a function of intelligence, just a function of seeing things with no loyalty and being able to cut through all the BS to what's at the core. Unfortunately in some ways I have been cursed with this ability, it's not the most pleasant thing to have, trust me on this. Rob
Actually, the Gallup poll measured positive attitude.
Not exactly. And they frame the questions like this because asking are you "happy" is pretty meaningless. It's the same methodology used in some of the other indexes mentioned above.
Gallup measured positive emotions in 148 countries and areas in 2011 using five questions. These questions ask people whether they experienced a lot of enjoyment the day before the survey and whether they felt respected, well-rested, laughed and smiled a lot, and did or learned something interesting.
The average percentage of respondents worldwide who said "yes" to these five questions reflects a relatively upbeat world. Gallup found that 85% of adults worldwide felt treated with respect all day, 72% smiled and laughed a lot, 73% felt enjoyment a lot of the day, and 72% felt well-rested. The only emotion that less than half of people worldwide reported experiencing was getting to learn or do something interesting the previous day, at 43%. Despite many global challenges, people worldwide are experiencing many positive emotions.
This illustrates the fallacy of these types of studies. Gallup measured positive feelings. I don't know how you separate disposition from circumstance. So you can people who objectively have it good but have a culture of cynicism rate low or people who have it bad vice versa. It illustrates my point that you have to take happiness surveys with a big big grain of salt.
Australia and Norway rank higher than the U.S. and they have some form of universal health care, plus both countries are known for having minimum wage jobs people can actually live off on. Strong social service programs are not impediments to healthy economies.
Especially when you are a commodities economy in a commodities boom. The margin of error on these things is huge, particularly when you add self reported subjective factors. You are kidding yourself if you think they prove any thing.
I was twelve when I understood about social classes and the basics of how they work in America. No one had to tell me anything - growing up poor yet being somewhat intelligent I was able to figure this out on my own. I bet you never ran across another 13 year old who would spend time at the library - this was in the days before the Internet - spending hours doing research comparison shopping their citizenship against other countries. But yes, I was thirteen when I started doing this. This is not a function of intelligence, just a function of seeing things with no loyalty and being able to cut through all the BS to what's at the core. Unfortunately in some ways I have been cursed with this ability, it's not the most pleasant thing to have, trust me on this. Rob
Yep, it's just The Man keeping you down. If you told me you studied hard, got a scholarship to college, majored in electrical engineering with honors and no one would hire you because you grew up in the wrong neighborhood I could maybe see your point. Getting an early start in making excuses isn't as persuasive.
gimmethesimplelife
10-2-13, 10:09pm
Yep, it's just The Man keeping you down. If you told me you studied hard, got a scholarship to college, majored in electrical engineering with honors and no one would hire you because you grew up in the wrong neighborhood I could maybe see your point. Getting an early start in making excuses isn't as persuasive.From what I understand, engineers can't find work these days either as this is getting offshored now, too. Also I did not get an early start in making excuses - I luckily got an early start in questioning everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, and had an early start in seeing through things with no loyalty whatsoever. I'm probably the worst kind of citizen America could have, worse than even a terrorist - I ask the hard questions and spare no person or institution. Rob
try2bfrugal
10-2-13, 10:47pm
Especially when you are a commodities economy in a commodities boom. The margin of error on these things is huge, particularly when you add self reported subjective factors. You are kidding yourself if you think they prove any thing.
I think the thing to keep in mind is that some form of universal health care is the norm in almost all developed countries, and not some sure to fail social experiment leads will lead us all down a path of hell fire, misery, evilness and economic collapse.
No one else is moving to the failed model of health care in the U.S. We're finally starting to catch up to the rest of the developed world by moving towards affordable health care for all.
Yossarian
10-2-13, 10:51pm
I think the thing to keep in mind is that some form of universal health care is the norm in almost all developed countries, and not some sure to fail social experiment leads will lead us all down a path of hell fire, misery, evilness and economic collapse.
No one else is moving to the failed model of health care in the U.S. We're finally starting to catch up to the rest of the developed world by moving towards affordable health care for all.
I don't know what your goal is here. I'll repeat it AGAIN- I'm on record supporting universal single payer. I don't know why you can't take yes for an answer. If you feel you need to argue that you need to direct your points to someone else.
Yossarian
10-2-13, 10:55pm
I ask the hard questions and spare no person or institution.
Great. What was your answer when you asked yourself why you ended up being a middle aged man doing transient menial labor? What was your career or occupational training that proved so fruitless and how did you isolate class as the objective cause of your economic under achievement.
try2bfrugal
10-2-13, 11:05pm
Great. What was your answer when you asked yourself why you ended up being a middle aged man doing transient menial labor? What was your career or occupational training that proved so fruitless and how did you isolate class as the objective cause of your economic under achievement.
I don't know what your point is in being a bully. Not cool.
Yossarian
10-2-13, 11:13pm
I don't know what your point is in being a bully. Not cool.
I don't know what your point is acting like Rob is a little kid or an idiot. He's done a good job of explaining his current economic situation. He has not done a good job of explaining why it's someone else's fault. He's a big boy, by his own admission he likes to deal with the hard questions. So there's one on the table. Just because he works as a waiter doesn't mean he needs some smarty pants sheltering him. Give him some credit, we don't need the prejudice of low expectations seeping in here.
gimmethesimplelife
10-2-13, 11:20pm
I think the thing to keep in mind is that some form of universal health care is the norm in almost all developed countries, and not some sure to fail social experiment leads will lead us all down a path of hell fire, misery, evilness and economic collapse.
No one else is moving to the failed model of health care in the U.S. We're finally starting to catch up to the rest of the developed world by moving towards affordable health care for all.And it's long, long, long overdue too! Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-2-13, 11:23pm
I don't know what your point is in being a bully. Not cool.Thanks! I thought that last statement of Yossarian's crossed the line, too. I think I'll just back off now so it does not escalate. It would not be cool for me as a moderator to participate in escalation. And I don't think to continue on this way is going to shed any light on this topic, which was my experiences with signing up on the health exchange in Arizona. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-2-13, 11:27pm
Back to the topic if I may - today I once again tried twice to sign up on the health exchange in Arizona. Arizona is one of the states that has opted to expand Medicaid but also opted to let the Feds do the exchange. So far I am not able to get onto the exchange as there seem to be too many people all wanting to sign up at once - can you blame them? I am just going to be patient and one of these days I will be able to get through. I think I read that if you are signed up by 12/15, coverage is supposed to begin next January 1st. I will post more as I have more experiences with the exchange and anyone else is welcome of course to post their experiences, too. Rob
try2bfrugal
10-2-13, 11:41pm
I can't sign up either. I got less far into the process today that I did yesterday. Today I couldn't even get to the rates screen.
gimmethesimplelife
10-2-13, 11:52pm
I can't sign up either. I got less far into the process today that I did yesterday. Today I couldn't even get to the rates screen.You have gotten further than I have.....I have only been able to set up an account and have since not been able to get further.....I'm going to be patient though and not knock it - who knows many other hundreds of thousands of people are out there right now trying to sign up at 8:52 PM as I type this? Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-3-13, 1:18am
Here's an update on my experience with ObamaCare. I found out there is a toll free # you can call to do an over the phone application which I just did. I am supposed to find out what I qualify for - probably Medicaid - by December 1st. I am not worried about identity theft even though I gave my SS# out over the phone as due to an identity theft issue last year I am frozen with the 3 credit reporting agencies - something I am more and more glad for. So we'll see how this goes, I'm done for now with dealing with the online glitches it looks like. Rob
... we don't need the prejudice of low expectations seeping in here.
I have never understood this phrase.
"Arizona is one of the states that has opted to expand Medicaid but also opted to let the Feds do the exchange."
Rob - I'm thinking this was the simplest, most efficient way to get this done in AZ. I'm interested in your thoughts on that idea ...
And I don't think to continue on this way is going to shed any light on this topic
That's cool, but you were the person who introduced class into this discussion. You were the person who said your understanding of class was the result of your ability to deal with hard questions. The only line we are trying to cross is the one between vague insinuations and some actual explanation. So for now I guess we'll just be left The Man keeping you down as your explanation. Rock on.
Here's an update on my experience with ObamaCare. I found out there is a toll free # you can call to do an over the phone application which I just did. I am supposed to find out what I qualify for - probably Medicaid - by December 1st. I am not worried about identity theft even though I gave my SS# out over the phone as due to an identity theft issue last year I am frozen with the 3 credit reporting agencies - something I am more and more glad for. So we'll see how this goes, I'm done for now with dealing with the online glitches it looks like. Rob
Did you have to hold a long time to get through to one of the phone reps? I still haven't tried the website or phone.
gimmethesimplelife
10-3-13, 9:52am
Did you have to hold a long time to get through to one of the phone reps? I still haven't tried the website or phone.No, amazingly I was on hold for less than two minutes.....but it was after 10PM, so maybe that had something to do with it. I'm thinking this is a good way to go.....Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-3-13, 10:05am
"Arizona is one of the states that has opted to expand Medicaid but also opted to let the Feds do the exchange."
Rob - I'm thinking this was the simplest, most efficient way to get this done in AZ. I'm interested in your thoughts on that idea ...My thoughts.....lol....you asked for it...J/K. Seriously. I am still amazed that Jan Brewer not only championed Medicaid expansion but also stood up to members of her own party in doing so.....I consider this a class act and find myself having respect for her even though she has since made a few decisions I am two thumbs down on - she did tackle the big one and that's what matters to me.
I think she was right too in how she marketed the expansion - doing the math, it is not wise to not let this huge inflow of an estimated 1.6 billion federal dollars into the state in the first year, creating more health care jobs and increasing the amount of state tax revenue due to more jobs, some of which actually pay enough to be worth your time to do. She also stated that if Arizona didn't sign up for this money via expansion, it would just go to some other state. Gotta say I have respect for people who can do the math and go against the grain of their party when it's so practical to do so.
I also think she was wise to let the Feds do the exchange. This way if there are any frustrations with glitches in the system or difficulties at all in folks getting enrolled, the fallout will not visit her office at the State Capitol. She can just wag her finger in the face of reporters and place the blame on the Feds, but still get credit for expanding Medicaid in the state. Wise on her part I think.....Though I'd much rather Arizona had developed it's own exchange, I think how she handled this was politically wise for her and maybe even got her the support of the few Republicans that stood up with her to expand Medicaid.
At any rate, I have now applied via the phone for coverage and am waiting for mail to arrive with my results. It's looking very much like Medicaid at least to start until such a date as my income increases. Rob
Came back to add - this is why I stay in Arizona, or at least one of the big reasons I do. This state is so funky - it can get liberal on you out of nowhere and completely blow you away, and then a week later it resembles the media stereotype for a bit. Never a dull moment in Arizona politically - at least not for very long.
The Storyteller
10-3-13, 11:17am
Today, a coworker who is a conservative Republican came to me about a concern about his daughter possibly losing her job. She has cancer and he is afraid she will be denied insurance when she gets another job or tries to get her own insurance. I printed up a fact sheet that showed because of the ACA, she can't be denied coverage or charged higher prices for premiums.
Him: "But they're about to overturn that, aren't they?"
Me: "No, Obama and the Senate won't let that happen."
Him: "Good. Well, thanks. That's a load off my mind."
Because my grown kids, wife, and I already each have excellent insurance coverage, I haven't been been paying much attention to the bruhaha. This was my first experience with recent events. I'm glad it is going to take care of his daughter, even though he has been against it from the beginning.
I'm convinced a lot of people are going to find out they like it once they get to know it. There is a popular jpg floating around Facebook of the curmudgeon in Green Eggs and Ham about to finally take a bite of the egg with the caption "I do not like it here or there, I do not like Obamacare".
Only they forget how that story ends. After he takes that bite, he finishes up by saying, "I do so like green eggs and ham. Thank you. Thank you, Sam I Am."
Not only is their little picture likely true in the present sense, it is also quite prophetic.
I'm convinced a lot of people are going to find out they like it once they get to know it.
And I think that is exactly why there is such a monumental push to try to derail it.
ApatheticNoMore
10-3-13, 12:39pm
How I learned to stop worrying and love the insurance companies, I guess.
(well those are the dogs you lie down with at the end of the day).
Thanks Rob. I've lived here almost 4 years. Still getting used to the state in all of its contradictions. :) libertarian, conservative, wild west, and eady going south with a tiny liberal belly button in the middle. Ha.
gimmethesimplelife
10-3-13, 10:47pm
Thanks Rob. I've lived here almost 4 years. Still getting used to the state in all of its contradictions. :) libertarian, conservative, wild west, and eady going south with a tiny liberal belly button in the middle. Ha.Something I like about Arizona is that you can go to Kingman, which is very conservative, or you can go to Bisbee, which is extremely liberal. You can go to Tuscon which is basically Portland, OR, set in the desert (but without the incredible mass transit), or you can go to Phoenix which is an overgrown conservative cowtown kind of unsure of it's identity since so much liberal money has moved in over the past 20 years. Not only can you have all different kinds of climates, you can have all different kinds of thinking, too. Rob
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