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razz
10-7-13, 1:58pm
I don't know how many of you receive John Mauldin's newsletter. I enjoy the perspective that he gives me of a fairly conservative, IMO anyway, view of impacts, economics etc of public The most recent letter was an eye-opener for me in understanding the impact Obamacare in terms of the Cleveland Clinic decision-making and planning. I offer just the highlights.

For the record, Canada is having a similar conversation re costs and changing the long-term view of healthcare.



"There is no doubt that the single most contentious topic I can bring up in a small group discussion or speech is the Affordable Care Act, otherwise known as Obamacare.
I will aim to dwell simply on the economic ramifications of the implementation of the bill as it exists today. We are changing the plumbing on 17.9% of the US GDP in profound ways. Many, if not most, of the changes are absolutely necessary.

This letter has grown out of a rather lengthy, ongoing conversation I have had with my very close friend and personal doctor, Mike Roizen, about his perceptions of changes that his institution, the Cleveland Clinic, and others like it have to make concerning the delivery of medicine in the near future, and the Clinic's expectations regarding the income they will receive for providing their services.
.

Mike first became famous for developing the RealAge concept of a healthier lifestyle today.
The views he expressed in preparation for this letter are his, not necessarily reflective of anyone else's at the Cleveland Clinic.

[B]We want to make something very clear right at the beginning. The US healthcare system as it stands is dysfunctional and can no longer continue as it currently operates. With or without Obamacare, profound change is required to deal with the dysfunctionality, and that change will happen, one way or another. Obamacare is simply one method for “encouraging” that necessary change.

The US currently spends 17.9% of its total GDP on health services (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS).
By contrast, the Netherlands spends 12% of its GDP on healthcare; Switzerland, Germany, France, and Canada about 11%; New Zealand 10%; Sweden 9.4%; and the United Kingdom 9.3%. As we travel through these countries, there is frequently a clear, if anecdotal, perception that people are healthier than in the US.

Dr. Jeff Brenner in Camden, New Jersey. found that 1% of the patients in Camden were responsible for 30% of hospitalization costs. By some estimates, 5 percent of these patients account for more than 60 percent of all healthcare costs.


Again, the fundamental changes that are necessary in the US healthcare system are going to happen with or without Obamacare. The system is simply dysfunctional. ACA is just accelerating the process. This is the business reality that hospitals all over America face, not just the Cleveland Clinic.

Over the next five years we will go from volume-based reimbursement in medicine (based on the number of procedures or patients a provider sees) to a value-based system (being paid the same amount per patient no matter how well or sick she is.

Thus, what is certain is that more people will be cared for and at a lower cost. There will also be a shortage of skilled medical providers. These shifts will occur irrespective of Obamacare but will be greatly influenced by it.


Take these factors.

1. The overall cost of medical care and the increased incidence of chronic disease: In 1960, the US spent 5.2% of GDP on medical care. By 1970, medical care claimed 7.2% of GDP, and its slice of the pie continued to widen, to 12% in 1990, and to around 17.5-18.5% now. Over the next six years, the projected increase in chronic disease stands to boost medical costs another 3% of GDP (if cost per process remains constant), and the aging of the population is likely to account for an additional increase of 1% of GDP. .

2. Cost transparency and reference pricing: A hospital system like the Cleveland Clinic currently bills about $18 billion for medical services and collect around $6 billion. (We do not know the exact numbers for the Clinic.) It costs such a system around $5.5 billion to provide all the services, and thus they are able to invest $500 million in plant, equipment maintenance, and new equipment at the Clinic. An institution like the Clinic gets this revenue by collecting from Medicare about $0.23 on the dollar billed, from Medicaid about $0.18 on the dollar billed, and about $0.38 on the dollar billed for the aggregate of commercially insured patients.


The present U.S. medical insurance: 1.concierge care for 1.5%, 2. Medicaid system- 5 to 15%, Medicare - 40% and a commercial system- 35 to 42% of the population uses. (About 15% are now uninsured.)


3. An increased government role in paying for care:
4. Increased coverage: 40 million more people will be covered nationally, at a reimbursement rate below our cost
5. Limited highly skilled medical workforce: The increase in the number of patients hospitals serve and a reduced reimbursement per patient will mean that hospitals need to re-engineer care in ways that impact personnel.

The prediction is these hospitals will be paid approximately 5% fewer total dollars next year and 25–35% fewer dollars in 2018, while treating a growing number of patients. Since more than 60% of their costs (in many institutes the figure is more than 80%) are for personnel,

Reduce the incidence of chronic disease. Since 70% of our healthcare costs are occasioned by the abuse of alcohol and other substances (especially tobacco!), physical inactivity, poor food choices and overly generous portion sizes, and unmanaged stress,.

There are many potential triggers to [deal with this] in Obamacare,

The Cleveland Clinic will have to reduce overall costs 5-10% (average 8%) per year for the next four years. That is no small feat.


This failure of health coverage is primarily due to the variations between states, as government coverage begins at different income levels in different states (26 states having rejected the expansion of Medicaid funded by Obamacare).

Hospitals will have fewer employees.

If you reduce the revenues of 18% of the economy by 6 to 8% every year for 4 years, you are forcing a reduction of about 1.4% of GDP over the entire economy.

Further, it is fairly evident that the US has too many hospitals.

While Obamacare incorporates many potential triggers that would accelerate incentives for wellness, it is not clear how quickly these will be deployed.

To put that in perspective, these are not small changes, as a system like the Cleveland Clinic will go from a system that now creates revenues of $6 billion a year to a system that is reimbursed around $4.4 billion for the same services; and other institutions are probably somewhere in that range of revenue reduction."

ApatheticNoMore
10-7-13, 2:20pm
We want to make something very clear right at the beginning. The US healthcare system as it stands is dysfunctional and can no longer continue as it currently operates. With or without Obamacare, profound change is required to deal with the dysfunctionality, and that change will happen, one way or another.

I really don't think almost anyone thinks it's not dysfunctional (though some have better coverage than others for sure), however, things can always get worse :)


Again, the fundamental changes that are necessary in the US healthcare system are going to happen with or without Obamacare. The system is simply dysfunctional.

This can go on for quite awhile at least if dysfunctional means not serving the end consumers who aren't even the ones who pay


Over the next five years we will go from volume-based reimbursement in medicine (based on the number of procedures or patients a provider sees) to a value-based system (being paid the same amount per patient no matter how well or sick she is.

how will this happen?


The prediction is these hospitals will be paid approximately 5% fewer total dollars next year and 25–35% fewer dollars in 2018, while treating a growing number of patients. Hospitals will have fewer employees.

This can't end well, not in a hospital system where hospitals are still expected to generate the same amount of profit. All I've heard is reports that hospitals are already understaffed. It will tend to be the most basic things that are cut, cleaning the bedpans etc.. Already hospital induced infections (MRSA etc.) kill way too many people. Let the existing staff be made to make up the work of more and more employees and expect it to get worse.

try2bfrugal
10-7-13, 3:14pm
This can't end well, not in a hospital system where hospitals are still expected to generate the same amount of profit. All I've heard is reports that hospitals are already understaffed. It will tend to be the most basic things that are cut, cleaning the bedpans etc.. Already hospital induced infections (MRSA etc.) kill way too many people. Let the existing staff be made to make up the work of more and more employees and expect it to get worse.

We don't have to reinvent the wheel to figure out how to reduce hospital costs. We just have to look at what is happening in the other countries where the health care systems are rated higher and the costs are lower, and there are a lot of those to look at.

The last time WHO did a survey, US health care was rated 38th in the world and number 1 in costs.

Florence
10-7-13, 3:22pm
It is amazing that there is so much antipathy toward providing affordable healthcare insurance to those who don't have it. I do think a Canadian style single payer plan would be better though.

creaker
10-7-13, 3:31pm
We don't have to reinvent the wheel to figure out how to reduce hospital costs. We just have to look at what is happening in the other countries where the health care systems are rated higher and the costs are lower, and there are a lot of those to look at.

The last time WHO did a survey, US health care was rated 38th in the world and number 1 in costs.

For a system whose primary purpose is profit, wouldn't that be a good thing?

Rogar
10-7-13, 3:51pm
We don't have to reinvent the wheel to figure out how to reduce hospital costs. We just have to look at what is happening in the other countries where the health care systems are rated higher and the costs are lower, and there are a lot of those to look at.

The last time WHO did a survey, US health care was rated 38th in the world and number 1 in costs.

I'm on the fence on some of the ACA, but without a more intimate knowledge of things behind the scenes, it seems like it is putting the horse before the cart. It would make good sense to me to first identify where our health care costs are excessive, failing, or inefficient, maybe using other successful programs as a learning point. And then target those areas with a public program. The ACA seems like a shotgun approach that has some good by providing affordable health care coverage, but not addressing inefficiencies in an organized fashion to reduce costs. Maybe I'm missing something?

ApatheticNoMore
10-7-13, 4:06pm
It is amazing that there is so much antipathy toward providing affordable healthcare insurance to those who don't have it.

if that's all it does we will be lucky - ie insurance companies and others like pharma won't use more government money coming their way plus forced enrollment to become ever more of a ripoff (yea there is a minimum they must spend on care but it leaves a hefty profit and no limit on things like pharma profits), insurance companies won't start offering junkier and junkier plans just to appear low cost (yea easy to be low cost if you have almost noone in your network - plans with much smaller networks are already appearing).


The ACA seems like a shotgun approach that has some good by providing affordable health care coverage, but not addressing inefficiencies in an organized fashion to reduce costs. Maybe I'm missing something?

I would think costs was the problem too. Maybe I'm missing something. Sure you acheive some cost savings with universal coverage (ACA gets closer but it's not universal coverage) but is that really the whole of the cost problem?

try2bfrugal
10-7-13, 4:18pm
maybe using other successful programs as a learning point.

Like Romneycare? (http://l.barackobama.com/press/release/president-obama-romneycare-was-the-model-for-obamacare/) I think that is exactly what they did.

Rogar
10-7-13, 5:55pm
Like Romneycare? (http://l.barackobama.com/press/release/president-obama-romneycare-was-the-model-for-obamacare/) I think that is exactly what they did.

I suppose. Most of the article is about providing health care and not much about how effective it is for an overall reduction of health care costs. Which I think was the issue of the OP. Did Romneycare have a significant impact on the over-all cost of health care? Or did it pass along the costs to the taxpayers and citizens without a big reduction? I don't know the answer, but it would seem like a national example might be a better template.

try2bfrugal
10-7-13, 6:48pm
I suppose. Most of the article is about providing health care and not much about how effective it is for an overall reduction of health care costs. Which I think was the issue of the OP. Did Romneycare have a significant impact on the over-all cost of health care? Or did it pass along the costs to the taxpayers and citizens without a big reduction? I don't know the answer, but it would seem like a national example might be a better template.

There is no way we are going to be able to go from what we have now to universal care like in some other countries. It is too big a jump. It is being fought tooth and nail as it is.

The Massachusett's model is a good place to start. For-profit corporations are already shifting their employees insurance either the public or private exchange model, which gives the insurance buyers more bargaining power and control over prices.

Rogar
10-7-13, 7:33pm
There is no way we are going to be able to go from what we have now to universal care like in some other countries. It is too big a jump. It is being fought tooth and nail as it is.

Here is a highlight of examples that other countries use to control health care costs that we could use as a template. An interesting article in it's entirety. It is what I was thinking should come before or along with implementing any ACA:

France and Japan demonstrate that it is possible to have cost-containment at the same time as paying physicians using similar tools to those used in the U.S. There are three key things that stand out when you compare these countries to the U.S.:


They use a common fee schedule so that hospitals, doctors and health services are paid similar rates for most of the patients they see. In the U.S., how much a health care service gets paid depends on the kind of insurance a patient has. This means that health care services can choose patients who have an insurance policy that pays them more generously than other patients who have lower-paying insurers, such as Medicaid.
They are flexible in responding if they think certain costs are exceeding what they budgeted for. In Japan, if spending in a specific area seems to be growing faster than projected, they lower fees for that area. Similarly, in France an organization called CNMATS closely monitors spending across all kinds of services and if they see a particular area is growing faster than they expected (or deem it in the public interest), they can intervene by lowering the price for that service. These countries also supplement lowering fees with other tools. For example, they monitor how many generic drugs a physician is prescribing and can send someone from the insurance fund to visit physicians' offices to encourage them to use cheaper generic drugs where appropriate. In comparison, U.S. payment rates are much less flexible. They are often statutory and Medicare cannot change the rates without approval by Congress. This makes the system very inflexible for cost containment.
There are few methods for controlling rising costs in private insurance in the U.S. In running their business, private health insurers continually face a choice between asking health care providers to contain their costs or passing on higher costs to patients in higher premiums. Many of them find it hard to do the former.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2012/10/health-costs-how-the-us-compares-with-other-countries.html

Bartleby
10-7-13, 10:19pm
I am in the Japan system. It works fine.

Health insurance a no brainer, a non issue. It is so freeing not having health insurance tied to my job.

That is what I would like to say to the self-proclaimed defenders of liberty.

iris lilies
10-7-13, 10:20pm
It is amazing that there is so much antipathy toward providing affordable healthcare insurance to those who don't have it. I do think a Canadian style single payer plan would be better though.

Really? You think it's ok to dictate that everyone must access their health care through the public option, there is no chance for private pay options? I think that stinks.

While personally I'd be fine using the public option, I don't pretend to tell others that they must do that as well. I don't believe for a moment that one size fits all.

That's why I like the British system. If you don't like what NHS has to offer, choose a private physician and hospital and pay for it yourself.

Options are good.

try2bfrugal
10-7-13, 10:37pm
Here is a highlight of examples that other countries use to control health care costs that we could use as a template. An interesting article in it's entirety. It is what I was thinking should come before or along with implementing any ACA:

France and Japan demonstrate that it is possible to have cost-containment at the same time as paying physicians using similar tools to those used in the U.S. There are three key things that stand out when you compare these countries to the U.S.:


They use a common fee schedule so that hospitals, doctors and health services are paid similar rates for most of the patients they see. In the U.S., how much a health care service gets paid depends on the kind of insurance a patient has. This means that health care services can choose patients who have an insurance policy that pays them more generously than other patients who have lower-paying insurers, such as Medicaid.
They are flexible in responding if they think certain costs are exceeding what they budgeted for. In Japan, if spending in a specific area seems to be growing faster than projected, they lower fees for that area. Similarly, in France an organization called CNMATS closely monitors spending across all kinds of services and if they see a particular area is growing faster than they expected (or deem it in the public interest), they can intervene by lowering the price for that service. These countries also supplement lowering fees with other tools. For example, they monitor how many generic drugs a physician is prescribing and can send someone from the insurance fund to visit physicians' offices to encourage them to use cheaper generic drugs where appropriate. In comparison, U.S. payment rates are much less flexible. They are often statutory and Medicare cannot change the rates without approval by Congress. This makes the system very inflexible for cost containment.
There are few methods for controlling rising costs in private insurance in the U.S. In running their business, private health insurers continually face a choice between asking health care providers to contain their costs or passing on higher costs to patients in higher premiums. Many of them find it hard to do the former.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2012/10/health-costs-how-the-us-compares-with-other-countries.html




I would love to see all that happen here. I think the ACA is a step towards universal care which will make the cost controls easier to implement in the future.

puglogic
10-7-13, 10:40pm
Since 70% of our healthcare costs are occasioned by the abuse of alcohol and other substances (especially tobacco!), physical inactivity, poor food choices and overly generous portion sizes, and unmanaged stress,.

This is the part that always gets to me. How on earth do we deal with THIS? Here in the land of the free and the home of the brave, where it's blasphemy to consider charging people more who make poor choices (or offering incentives for good choices)....where I have a RIGHT to those Cheetos, dammit, how does this ever get solved?

Bartleby
10-7-13, 10:41pm
Don't know much about the NHS in Britain, but in Japan health insurance is single payer, but the health care providers are various and sundry -- small family doctor offices, religious affiliated hospitals, university teaching hospitals, walk in clinics, etc. If you want a treatment not covered, you can pay for it. If you want supplemental coverage, you can have that too.
If you want to go to a major hospital with a specialist, there is a surcharge. If you get a reference from your local doctor, the surcharge is waived.
I guess people are required to sign up for the main govt program. I think it is okay. If you are poor, it is cheap. As a practical matter, I find it quite liberating.
Of course, anything of the sort is politically impossible in the United States. For those of us who would like it, our options are being dictated by the vociferous right.
I think it might be difficult for me to return to the United States owing to health care availability.
If I am not eligible for Medicare, it would be all but impossible for me to return in my old age permanently. No idea if Obamacare would help me in this case. Don't really care. If I get sick, guess I will come back to Japan …

Tradd
10-7-13, 10:41pm
I've wondered from the start why the ACA didn't seem to address any of the skyrocketing costs, especially where hospitals are involved.

try2bfrugal
10-7-13, 10:41pm
That's why I like the British system. If you don't like what NHS has to offer, choose a private physician and hospital and pay for it yourself.

Options are good.

Most of our relatives in the UK just use the public health system. I have been surprised at the heroic measure the NHS has taken for some of our elderly relatives, considering their advanced ages and sometimes low probability of any long term, sustainable recovery.

try2bfrugal
10-7-13, 10:44pm
I've wondered from the start why the ACA didn't seem to address any of the skyrocketing costs, especially where hospitals are involved.

Because the powers that be in health care have a strong lobby from all the current profits and they would have fought it tooth and nail.

Bartleby
10-7-13, 10:46pm
Don't know much about the NHS in Britain, but in Japan health insurance is single payer, but the health care providers are various and sundry -- small family doctor offices, religious affiliated hospitals, university teaching hospitals, walk in clinics, etc. If you want a treatment not covered, you can pay for it. If you want supplemental coverage, you can have that too.
If you want to go to a major hospital with a specialist, there is a surcharge. If you get a reference from your local doctor, the surcharge is waived.
I guess people are required to sign up for the main govt program. I think it is okay. If you are poor, it is cheap. As a practical matter, I find it quite liberating.
Of course, anything of the sort is politically impossible in the United States. For those of us who would like it, our options are being dictated by the vociferous right.
I think it might be difficult for me to return to the United States owing to health care availability.
If I am not eligible for Medicare, it would be all but impossible for me to return in my old age permanently. No idea if Obamacare would help me in this case. Don't really care. If I get sick, guess I will come back to Japan …

Bartleby
10-7-13, 10:50pm
I've wondered from the start why the ACA didn't seem to address any of the skyrocketing costs, especially where hospitals are involved.
Death panels!!!

gimmethesimplelife
10-8-13, 4:37am
Don't know much about the NHS in Britain, but in Japan health insurance is single payer, but the health care providers are various and sundry -- small family doctor offices, religious affiliated hospitals, university teaching hospitals, walk in clinics, etc. If you want a treatment not covered, you can pay for it. If you want supplemental coverage, you can have that too.
If you want to go to a major hospital with a specialist, there is a surcharge. If you get a reference from your local doctor, the surcharge is waived.
I guess people are required to sign up for the main govt program. I think it is okay. If you are poor, it is cheap. As a practical matter, I find it quite liberating.
Of course, anything of the sort is politically impossible in the United States. For those of us who would like it, our options are being dictated by the vociferous right.
I think it might be difficult for me to return to the United States owing to health care availability.
If I am not eligible for Medicare, it would be all but impossible for me to return in my old age permanently. No idea if Obamacare would help me in this case. Don't really care. If I get sick, guess I will come back to Japan …Pretty sad that once you see a better system - in this case regarding healthcare, you think twice about exposing yourself to the huge risks of living in the US, isn't it? For this same reason, every time I go to Mexico, I have a real hard time crossing the border and am depressed for days.

I don't when I'll be out to be honest. I worry for my aging mother and I do want to pick up web design and development skills while I am still here - starting classes for this in January 2014. And I do have faith in ObamaCare - we'll see if ObamaCare ends out justifying my faith, though. One wonderful thing about acquiring web skills is that you don't have to be tied down to one place, one health care system, or one cost of living. I would not have much problem with the idea of being a digital nomad, though I'm not exactly young. I read of one woman online leaving the US for Uruguay for a number of reasons and her struggles to start a new life in Montevideo, and how she has no interest in going back to the US now as her online business is starting to pull in enough money for her to be comfortably self sufficient. I could see that being me, too.

Rob Came back to add that the woman above is 54 years old - so this can be done if one is motivated to do so.