The benefits of Obamacare [Archive]

gimmethesimplelife

10-15-13, 1:01pm

try2bfrugal

10-15-13, 1:32pm

Great article, thanks for posting. In our city DH had just commented the other day how the hospital system seems to be taking over all the office space - way beyond the hospital itself. The sprawl seemed out of control, especially after reading Time's Bitter Pill article on why health care costs in the u.S. are ridiculously high.

So just recently same hospital has sold off at least one unit and has been cutting staff. They are actually doing studies on proper staffing levels and realized they had much more staff than comparable hospital systems for similar functions. Like they have blood draw stations all over town that would have staff sitting around half the time waiting for a patient to show up. Even I had noticed that in the past and I'm not exactly a hospital administrator. So the lab part is what they sold off and they only expected a fraction of the employees to be rehired. One of the reasons they gave for the cuts was Obamacare - that more of their rates would be set for them and they had to be more efficient in order to not lose money from now on - they couldn't just pass costs onto their patients as easily.

redfox

10-16-13, 9:33am

Fact-checking the so called exemptions:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2013/10/16/did-obama-exempt-1200-groups-including-congress-from-obamacare/?tid=sm_fb

dmc

10-17-13, 4:42pm

I clicked on a link someone provided a few days ago which takes you to a page where you can see what is on offer in your state on the exchanges, assuming you make more than the magical 11K and whatever number and assuming you don't qualify for Medicaid in a state that is expanding it.

In Arizona, a platinum plan can be had for $250 a month through Health Net.....That is a huge reduction in price over what was offered before - assuming you could qualify, which I couldn't due to pre-existing conditions. So my hat's off to Barak Obama.....I will always be grateful to him for this, even if I end out leaving the country, as I know many people who will now benefit.

Rob

I just went to a calculator and pluged in a few numbers for what I would consider a fairly low income, $63000 for a couple. 57yr old and 53 non smoker. This was from Kaiser.

The silver plan premium is $966 a month with an out of pocket limit to a additional $12,700 for a total cost of $24,291 if you do need the insurance.

Spartana

10-17-13, 5:00pm

I did the calculator based on my income and age and, being low income enough to qualify for medicaid, it wouldn't let me look at the premiums. Don't know how to see that other then putting in a higher income level, or if I can even buy insurance on the exchange since I don't want to go on medicaid (and I can't get the subsidies). I did down load an application but it seems it also will only allow me to go on medicaid. So can a person just buy a policy directly from the exchanges irregardles of income if they aren't asking for subsidies or medicaid? I got a letter from my current insurance carrier saying that they are dropping my coverage and I had to apply via the exchanges. Similar policies were about 3 times higher than I paid but I'd like to look at more. Since I can use the VA hospital I currently have chosen not to buy a new private policy but am feeling that might not be prudent given the government shutdown potential.

try2bfrugal

10-17-13, 5:03pm

ApatheticNoMore

10-17-13, 5:09pm

Fact-checking the so called exemptions:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...are/?tid=sm_fb

Congress can enroll in the SHOP plans and ALL the SHOP plans congress is able to enroll in on the exchange are GOLD level plans (no silver or bronze for them). The rest of us, of course, probably can't afford gold level plans. Especially as the subsidy level is based not on the gold but the silver level plans! So we're getting the exact same plans as congress. Yea right. Let them eat high deductables.

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/house/326409-obamacare-requires-congress-staff-to-buy-gold-level-insurance-plan

dmc

10-17-13, 5:27pm

That is less than half of what we pay now in premiums for a couple in their fifties with kids, for the best policy we could get with pre-existing conditions. Our out of pocket max is currently 17K. This is great news for us.

For a household without subsidies, the Bronze plan is probably a better deal in terms of total potential cost because the out of pocket maxes stay the same while the premiums are lower.

BTW - The median household income in the U.S. is around $50K, so $63K would not be considered by most to be a fairly low income except maybe in high COL areas.

Are you factoring in the deductables and out of pocket? I'm currently paying $1300 a month, but my deductable is $2000 for the family.

dmc

10-17-13, 5:28pm

Spartana

10-17-13, 5:33pm

dmc

10-17-13, 5:38pm

I think at that income level you would qualify for subsidies at least for the monthly premiums as I don't believe they offer subsidies for the deductible. I'm curious how a low income person can afford to pay $10k or more out of pocket each year. My current plan cost around d $200/month with a max $5k a year out of pocket. Friend had Health net at $225/month with a $4k out of pocket max and that included 4 free drs visits a year. She said a bronze plan would cost her much more in premiums and she'd have an out of pocket that was much much higher.

Nope $62,000 get you a subsidy, $63,000 get you nothing. That's for a family of 2. Just think, your boss can do you a favor and cut your pay if your on the line. Or better watch out for that bonus or overtime check, it may cost you thousands.

Spartana

10-17-13, 5:40pm

Just lie about your income. Tell them you have some gambling winnings and work for tips also.

You mean my tips from striping? I think I have to be the one tipping nowadays :-) Well I'm still on the fence about even buying insurance once the ACA kicks in so will look at the various plans an costs to see what's available first.

gimmethesimplelife

10-17-13, 5:47pm

I just went to a calculator and pluged in a few numbers for what I would consider a fairly low income, $63000 for a couple. 57yr old and 53 non smoker. This was from Kaiser.

The silver plan premium is $966 a month with an out of pocket limit to a additional $12,700 for a total cost of $24,291 if you do need the insurance.DMC, there is a great deal of difference between our incomes....barring that, as I said this rate I quoted was in Arizona was BEFORE any subsidies were factored in, is the fact that I live in a state that is fairly competitive (by American standards) for healthcare anyway, due to the large senior citizen community here and the increasing numbers of folks fleeing across the border for healthcare as it just doesn't work for them in the US. Regardless of your take on this, I do believe one reason the number is so low in Arizona is that there are competitive forces at work here that are not so much at play in other states. Rob

PS And I agree those rates you are quoting SUCK! OTOH I don't consider 63K for two people to be low income. In my world two full time workers average around half that, and imagine $31,500 with kids....No offense, I'm just trying to politely let you know that 63K for two people for a good chunk of the US population, especially after the adjustments from the 2008 financial meltdown took place - and are continuing to take place - IS A REAL BIG PILE OF MONEY that seems attainable only by leaving the US these days, perhaps for somewhere in Asia if you want to make work your life. But I still would agree the rates you have quoted are obnoxious. Rob

dmc

10-17-13, 6:25pm

DMC, there is a great deal of difference between our incomes....barring that, as I said this rate I quoted was in Arizona was BEFORE any subsidies were factored in, is the fact that I live in a state that is fairly competitive (by American standards) for healthcare anyway, due to the large senior citizen community here and the increasing numbers of folks fleeing across the border for healthcare as it just doesn't work for them in the US. Regardless of your take on this, I do believe one reason the number is so low in Arizona is that there are competitive forces at work here that are not so much at play in other states. Rob

PS And I agree those rates you are quoting SUCK! OTOH I don't consider 63K for two people to be low income. In my world two full time workers average around half that, and imagine $31,500 with kids....No offense, I'm just trying to politely let you know that 63K for two people for a good chunk of the US population, especially after the adjustments from the 2008 financial meltdown took place - and are continuing to take place - IS A REAL BIG PILE OF MONEY that seems attainable only by leaving the US these days, perhaps for somewhere in Asia if you want to make work your life. But I still would agree the rates you have quoted are obnoxious. Rob

Here is the calculator
http://kff.org/interactive/subsidy-calculator/#state=&zip=&income-type=dollars&income=63000&employer-coverage=0&people=2&alternate-plan-family=individual&adult-count=2&adults[0][age]=56&adults[0][tobacco]=0&adults[1][age]=54&adults[1][tobacco]=0&child-count=0&child-tobacco=0

The rates I posted were for the national average. Put in your zip code and see what you come up with. But put in an income for two working people. I don't think its that unreasonable for many to make $31,500 each. Thats just over $15hr. And the quotes are for people in there 50's, not kids just out of school. I use to pay kids over $12hr for summer help, they would all make much more once they went full time. And the last time I stopped by my old office they have still been getting raises since I left in 2007.

dmc

10-17-13, 6:34pm

I do agree that the time will come that many will be going to other countries to get some medical procedures done. My wifes family is from Canada and they came to the US to get medical care in the past.

It would probably be best to just get the cheapest plan you can find to cover an emergency, and then go somewhere else if you need something done. It will be interesting to see how this really works out. I don't think many are adding up all their possible out of pocket cost.

It will definatly be cheaper for those with little income or expensive pre existing conditions. And something needs to be done to address that. But having insurance company's writing laws that we then must follow under penalty of law is just not right either.

dmc

10-17-13, 6:38pm

You mean my tips from striping? I think I have to be the one tipping nowadays :-) Well I'm still on the fence about even buying insurance once the ACA kicks in so will look at the various plans an costs to see what's available first.

There are many ways to get tips. You could tell them you got the money from begging on the street corner. You could carry a sign that says help me make enough to get off medicare.

ApatheticNoMore

10-17-13, 6:45pm

In my world two full time workers average around half that, and imagine $31,500 with kids....

Around here their employers could be prosecuted for violating the minimum wage laws if that's all they got paid. California minimum wage is $8 an hour * 40 * 52 = 16640 * 2 wage earners = 33,280. So around here two full time workers earning 31,500 who work full time the full year isn't EVEN LEGAL. So either they're working for tips or being paid under the table, both of which of course exist.

By the way the 63K though a bit high is a heck of a lot closer to the median household income around here than the 31.5k. So I found the assumption an entirely reasonble income assumption.

try2bfrugal

10-17-13, 6:45pm

Are you factoring in the deductables and out of pocket? I'm currently paying $1300 a month, but my deductable is $2000 for the family.

I am not sure what you mean by factoring - into what calculation?

Our medical expenses for this year 27K for premiums for the year, 2K assorted bills, 5K hospital deductible, and counting. One family member will reach the one person out of pocket max so that will be another 3.5K (8.5K one person out of pocket max, separate out of pocket max for prescriptions - I think ~$7.5K.)

$37.5K and the year isn't over, all the hospital bills aren't in yet and we know there will be some out of network charges not subject to the out of pocket max. We will go over $40K easy this year on medical costs and we have insurance. And we are relatively healthy. Just one family member having a one time type of surgery is really our only major medical issue right now, plus some random other stuff. We could have bought a cheaper guaranteed issue policy through our home business, but it would have had higher out of pocket maximums and cost more in total, given the planned surgery we knew was coming up.

Next year we will most likely get a Bronze plan for under $200 a month and have a 6/12 out of pocket max. I think the OOPM for next year is for both care + prescriptions, not separate out of pocket maxes like we have now.

If the ACA was in place this year we would have saved around $30K off our medical expenses.

dmc

10-17-13, 6:55pm

I am not sure what you mean by factoring - into what calculation?

Our medical expenses for this year 27K for premiums for the year, 2K assorted bills, 5K hospital deductible, and counting. One family member will reach the one person out of pocket max so that will be another 3.5K (8.5K one person out of pocket max, separate out of pocket max for prescriptions - I think ~$7.5K.)

$37.5K and the year isn't over and all the hospital bills aren't in yet and we know there will be some out of network charges not subject to the out of pocket max. We will go over $40K easy this year on medical costs and we have insurance. And we are relatively healthy. Just one family member having a one time type of surgery is really our only major medical issue. We could have bought a cheaper policy but with the planned surgery the out of pocket limits were even higher and we knew we would max those out this year.

Next year we will most likely get a Bronze plan for under $200 a month and have a 6/12 out of pocket max and I think that is for both care + prescriptions, not separate out of pocket maxes like we have now.

Yes, it will definatly be cheaper than your present plan. I assume you do not have insurance through your job and have to by it on the open market. There are some that will obviously benefit. Many will not.

ApatheticNoMore

10-17-13, 7:05pm

Yes, it will definatly be cheaper than your present plan. I assume you do not have insurance through your job and have to by it on the open market. There are some that will obviously benefit. Many will not.

I think that pretty much sums it up, some benefit, others get hit pretty hard by it (and not just the rich or something, some middle class people who happen to be in unlucky situations get the shaft (usually those without employer provided and beyond the subsidy).

And me, well I just hope my employer provided doesn't get more expensive is all (but it always does - every year). Shrug.

bae

10-17-13, 7:13pm

In my world two full time workers average around half that, and imagine $31,500 with kids....

You live in an odd world. $15,750 for a full-time wage? 2080 work hours in a year, so they are getting paid $7.57/hour. Your world is made up of just-barely, or not-even minimum wage workers? Very odd.

My county often has nearly the lowest wage income in the state, and people here are making considerably more than $15,750/year. $41k/year on average for government jobs here, private industry about $31k/year.

try2bfrugal

10-17-13, 7:17pm

I think that pretty much sums it up, some benefit, others get hit pretty hard by it (and not just the rich or something, some middle class people who happen to be in unlucky situations get the shaft (usually those without employer provided and beyond the subsidy).

The subsidies for a family of four go all the way up to an modified adjusted gross income of $94.2K, and that isn't gross but income after some deductions like 401K and IRA accounts. So in general they do try to cover the lower and middle class income-wise.

There is a chart here -

http://www.familiesusa.org/resources/tools-for-advocates/guides/federal-poverty-guidelines.html

try2bfrugal

10-17-13, 7:21pm

You live in an odd world. $15,750 for a full-time wage? 2080 work hours in a year, so they are getting paid $7.57/hour. Your world is made up of just-barely, or not-even minimum wage workers? Very odd.

My county often has nearly the lowest wage income in the state, and people here are making considerably more than $15,750/year. $41k/year on average for government jobs here, private industry about $31k/year.

The majority of the uninsured in the U.S., 48 million, are low income working families.

bae

10-17-13, 7:30pm

The majority of the uninsured in the U.S., 48 million, are low income working families.

That may well be the case, but they aren't earning as little as Rob indicates if they are full-time workers, as he mentions...

In my state, minimum wage is $9.19/hour. That'd be $19,115/year.

So, he's either wrong about their income, or wrong about their full-time status, or his world is entirely made up of people just barely making minimum wage in some of the lower-wage states.

try2bfrugal

10-17-13, 7:49pm

That may well be the case, but they aren't earning as little as Rob indicates if they are full-time workers, as he mentions...

In my state, minimum wage is $9.19/hour. That'd be $19,115/year.

So, he's either wrong about their income, or wrong about their full-time status, or his world is entirely made up of people just barely making minimum wage in some of the lower-wage states.

The federal minimum wage is $7.25 an hour. Many states do not have higher minimum wages than that. The federal minimum wage for people who receives tips is $2.13. Some lower income groups like farm and home health care workers are not even covered by minimum wage laws.

From the Bureau of Labor Statistics -

"By major occupational group, the highest proportion of hourly-paid workers earning at or below the Federal minimum wage was in service occupations, at 13 percent. About 6 in 10 workers earning the minimum wage or less in 2011 were employed in service occupations, mostly in food preparation and serving related jobs."

bae

10-17-13, 8:44pm

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2012.htm

gimmethesimplelife

10-18-13, 2:11pm

You live in an odd world. $15,750 for a full-time wage? 2080 work hours in a year, so they are getting paid $7.57/hour. Your world is made up of just-barely, or not-even minimum wage workers? Very odd.

My county often has nearly the lowest wage income in the state, and people here are making considerably more than $15,750/year. $41k/year on average for government jobs here, private industry about $31k/year.I can't speak for your world Bae where you are - I think in WA state, where there is a juicy 9.19 hour minimum wage, but in Arizona - and Texas - and New Mexico - low wage border states - this is a common world. A very common world. Rob

gimmethesimplelife

10-18-13, 2:12pm

The federal minimum wage is $7.25 an hour. Many states do not have higher minimum wages than that. The federal minimum wage for people who receives tips is $2.13. Some lower income groups like farm and home health care workers are not even covered by minimum wage laws.

From the Bureau of Labor Statistics -

"By major occupational group, the highest proportion of hourly-paid workers earning at or below the Federal minimum wage was in service occupations, at 13 percent. About 6 in 10 workers earning the minimum wage or less in 2011 were employed in service occupations, mostly in food preparation and serving related jobs."Exactly. Thank You for making this point here and beating me to it.....Rob

gimmethesimplelife

10-18-13, 2:18pm

Its very interesting to me, that even on this polite discussion board here, that opinions seem to be drawn along the lines of social class as to how everyday people actually live. And I am guilty of this too - but I am stepping up and admitting it. I think there are a few posters here who are aware of my points, not everyone is totally in the dark as to my side of the equation - but it really amazes me that there are folks who actually believe that many working people are going to make $15 an hour these days. I'd love to get citizenship in that country, it's sure not mine. Enough said. Rob

Spartana

10-18-13, 2:38pm

There are many ways to get tips. You could tell them you got the money from begging on the street corner. You could carry a sign that says help me make enough to get off medicare.

Oh geeze - I'll just get a real job instead if it comes to that :-) . This may be the delimma many early retirees who have low incomes by choice - us simple frugal types - face. Having our insurance rates go up but Not qualifying for subsidies but not wanting to go on medicaid. Fortunately I have the financial assets to pay for my own insurance or will just use the VA.

ApatheticNoMore

10-18-13, 3:05pm

This may be the delimma many early retirees who have low incomes by choice - us simple frugal types - face. Having our insurance rates go up but Not qualifying for subsidies but not wanting to go on medicaid.

Ah too low income to get subsidies, but not really wanting to rely on medicaid for all your healthcare needs, in a state it's as poorly funded in as this one. Yea it's a problem. And yes then you earn too little to go on the exchanges even if you really really wanted to, and if you buy in the open market it WILL HURT because non-exchange rates are going up (whether or not due to Obamacare I dont' know, as some was happening all along, but the skys is the limit - no cost controls - and health care inflation more or less entirely unaddressed in so called healthcare reform).

I think there's a lot of people for whom: keep a job or get Medicaid only for your healthcare, or if they are in a higher income bracket: keep a job or get no subsidy because you earn too much - where keeping a job is a no-brainer. I dont' particularly want employers to start dropping coverage, not because employer coverage is a sane way to run a healthcare system, but otherwise health insurance would be completely ridiculous costing the way things actually are (are we really supposed to pay for it the same as a months rent?)

bae

10-18-13, 3:08pm

I can't speak for your world Bae where you are - I think in WA state, where there is a juicy 9.19 hour minimum wage, but in Arizona - and Texas - and New Mexico - low wage border states - this is a common world. A very common world. Rob

The BLS link I provided above speaks to the number of people earning minimum wage, and their demographics...

Alan

10-18-13, 3:22pm

.... but it really amazes me that there are folks who actually believe that many working people are going to make $15 an hour these days. I'd love to get citizenship in that country, it's sure not mine. Enough said. Rob
I guess it's simply a matter of which world you choose to live in. In my world, everyone who applies themselves meets the threshold you seem to think is un-attainable.
If you're interesting in having hope, consider broadening your horizons and join the majority.

Spartana

10-18-13, 3:29pm

Ah too low income to get subsidies, but not really wanting to rely on medicaid for all your healthcare needs, in a state it's as poorly funded in as this one. Yea it's a problem. And yes then you earn too little to go on the exchanges even if you really really wanted to, and if you buy in the open market it WILL HURT because non-exchange rates are going up (whether or not due to Obamacare I dont' know, as some was happening all along, but the skys is the limit - no cost controls - and health care inflation more or less entirely unaddressed in so called healthcare reform).

I think there's a lot of people for whom: keep a job or get Medicaid only for your healthcare, or if they are in a higher income bracket: keep a job or get no subsidy because you earn too much - where keeping a job is a no-brainer. I dont' particularly want employers to start dropping coverage, not because employer coverage is a sane way to run a healthcare system, but otherwise health insurance would be completely ridiculous costing the way things actually are (are we really supposed to pay for it the same as a months rent?) And there's the ethical/moral issue of not wanting to go on medicaid or even get subsidied when you are young, healthy and able bodied enough to work but are choosing to retire early with the plan to pay for your own insurance in full. But when your costs increase and you see others who may earn 5 or more times the amount you do, and perhaps have more in assets, getting much lower costs via subsidies...well it becomes harder to do what you feel is the moral thing.

Eta- in any case I'm happy that obamacare is here even if I have issues with how it's implemented. Happy to know that those who truelly need assistance will get it, and happy to know that the middle class and higher earners don't have to pay exorbitant prices or descend into poverty due to a medical issue in their family. And I can always go back to work if needed to pay my higher premiums.

bae

10-18-13, 4:15pm

...it really amazes me that there are folks who actually believe that many working people are going to make $15 an hour these days. I'd love to get citizenship in that country, it's sure not mine. Enough said. Rob

Come on up to my county, Rob. I'm paying two guys this week $20/hour for ditchdigging, and I'd be happy to give you that. I can even provide you a place to pitch a yent or yurt. You can make $25/hour housecleaning or gardening all day long, $35/hour for any sort of electrical/carpentry/roofing/handyman work. It is perhaps the most temperate climate in America, and people manage to live year-round in yurts and converted schoolbuses, and food grows on trees here.

Businesses here cannot hire at $15/hour, nobody takes the work. If you want a dishwasher for a restaurant, you have to pay more than that.

try2bfrugal

10-18-13, 5:29pm

Come on up to my county, Rob. I'm paying two guys this week $20/hour for ditchdigging, and I'd be happy to give you that. I can even provide you a place to pitch a yent or yurt. You can make $25/hour housecleaning or gardening all day long, $35/hour for any sort of electrical/carpentry/roofing/handyman work. It is perhaps the most temperate climate in America, and people manage to live year-round in yurts and converted schoolbuses, and food grows on trees here.

Businesses here cannot hire at $15/hour, nobody takes the work. If you want a dishwasher for a restaurant, you have to pay more than that.

I have a friends who owns a housecleaning service and no one there is making anywhere close to $25 an hour. She pays what she can but the people she employs are among the working poor, with kids, and struggle to make ends meet.

bae

10-18-13, 5:52pm

I have a friends who owns a housecleaning service and no one there is making anywhere close to $25 an hour. She pays what she can but the people she employs are among the working poor, with kids, and struggle to make ends meet.

Well, if your friend is in my county, which I was referring to, perhaps your friend isn't conveying the situation accurately to you, or perhaps you misinterpreted their data.

The county economic data is pretty solid and substantial, and I believe I have conveyed the flavor accurately. I was a member of the County's Housing Commission for years, worked at one of our quite substantial Community Land Trusts for years, am currently head of the County Planning Commission, and am an elected official for a district with the full powers of a first-class city in this state charged with economic development. I look at this issue every single day.

There are people here not making it, true. There are a lot more who are. Of course, because of our unique circumstances, you generally have to juggle multiple jobs - such is the trade-off you make when *choosing* to move to a remote spot that bases its economy on seasonal tourism.

My offer of $20/hour for ditch digging or other relatively-unskilled labor remains open to Rob. He can also have access to the same free health care anyone on the island has - they can walk into one of our non-profit medical clinics that has a sliding scale of charges (that extends to $0).

(On edit - I also have a 4 week job coming up that simply involves moving furniture and goods around inside of a building, so painting and trim repair to deal with our recent flooding can happen. That labor pays $40/hour.)

try2bfrugal

10-18-13, 7:16pm

Well, if your friend is in my county, which I was referring to, perhaps your friend isn't conveying the situation accurately to you, or perhaps you misinterpreted their data.

The county economic data is pretty solid and substantial, and I believe I have conveyed the flavor accurately. I was a member of the County's Housing Commission for years, worked at one of our quite substantial Community Land Trusts for years, am currently head of the County Planning Commission, and am an elected official for a district with the full powers of a first-class city in this state charged with economic development. I look at this issue every single day.

There are people here not making it, true. There are a lot more who are. Of course, because of our unique circumstances, you generally have to juggle multiple jobs - such is the trade-off you make when *choosing* to move to a remote spot that bases its economy on seasonal tourism.

My offer of $20/hour for ditch digging or other relatively-unskilled labor remains open to Rob. He can also have access to the same free health care anyone on the island has - they can walk into one of our non-profit medical clinics that has a sliding scale of charges (that extends to $0).

(On edit - I also have a 4 week job coming up that simply involves moving furniture and goods around inside of a building, so painting and trim repair to deal with our recent flooding can happen. That labor pays $40/hour.)

I am not questioning what you say are the rates where you live. I am just saying those rates are not the norm everywhere, and there are working poor families struggling to get by doing house cleaning, retail and fast food work on minimum wage incomes. I know what the minimum wage jobs around us pay from our kids and their friends jobs, and there are adults with families at the same places of employment in similar positions.

bae

10-18-13, 7:21pm

... and there are adults with families at the same places of employment in similar positions.

And from the BLS statistics I provided above, that is not the mainstream. Of course there are *some* people in that situation, but the demographics of the minimum-wage worker in America don't support the conclusions that some here seem to be selling...

try2bfrugal

10-18-13, 8:42pm

And from the BLS statistics I provided above, that is not the mainstream. Of course there are *some* people in that situation, but the demographics of the minimum-wage worker in America don't support the conclusions that some here seem to be selling...

Well, the BLS data says there were 10.5 million working poor in the U.S. for 2010 (http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2012/ted_20120405.htm) - those with incomes below the poverty level. I don't think those people are turning down $25 an hour jobs left and right, but you can think what you want.

bae

10-18-13, 8:53pm

Full-time workers were less likely to be among the working poor than were part-time workers. Among persons in the labor force for 27 weeks or more, 4.2 percent of those usually employed full time were classified as working poor, compared with 15.1 percent of part-time workers.

Rob's point, which I was commenting on, was concerning full-time workers.

A very low percentage of the population manages to have a full-time job and earn as little as Rob claims is his world. And the BLS data provides information as to what the demographic of that population is.

You keep trying to draw some broader conclusion, which is unsupported by the data.

Meanwhile, here in our local community notice board, there's been a guy trying all week to hire workers at $15/hour to help with some light cleanup work in his garage and yard, no takers.

try2bfrugal

10-18-13, 8:58pm

Rob's point, which I was commenting on, was concerning full-time workers.

A very low percentage of the population manages to have a full-time job and earn as little as Rob claims is his world. And the BLS data provides information as to what the demographic of that population is.

You keep trying to draw some broader conclusion, which is unsupported by the data.

Meanwhile, here in our local community notice board, there's been a guy trying all week to hire workers at $15/hour to help with some light cleanup work in his garage and yard, no takers.

Data like this?

"Raising the minimum wage to just $10.10 per hour would pull more than half of the nation's working poor out of poverty, according to a new study.The study, by the Restaurant Opportunities Centers United (http://rocunited.org/), a national organization focusing on racial equity in the restaurant industry, discovered that nearly 58 percent (http://rocunited.org/files/2013/06/ROC_racialjustice_revfinal1.pdf) -- or roughly 6 million -- of the 10.4 million U.S. workers living below the federal poverty level (http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2011.pdf) in 2011 would be pulled out by such an increase. (Proposed legislation introduced to Congress earlier this year by Rep. George Miller (D-Calif.) (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/15/gop-minimum-wage-increase_n_2884912.html) called for just that.) The Bureau of Labor Statistics defines the working poor as those who either had jobs (http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2011.pdf), or were looking for at least half the year and still fell below the poverty line.
The federal minimum wage -- currently set at $7.25 (http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/wages/minimumwage.htm) -- was last increased in 2009. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/04/minimum-wage_n_2807440.html)"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/20/10-minimum-wage_n_3474024.html

bae

10-18-13, 9:00pm

You are clearly trying to miss the point.

gimmethesimplelife

10-18-13, 9:14pm

I guess it's simply a matter of which world you choose to live in. In my world, everyone who applies themselves meets the threshold you seem to think is un-attainable.
If you're interesting in having hope, consider broadening your horizons and join the majority.If only such were even possible or achievable as you imply.....Sometimes when I have these types of wage inequality discussions with folks who see it your way, Alan (and certainly you are far from the only one, I'll give you that), I often marvel that we are both in the same country and you don't need a passport to come and see my world and vice versa, even though they are two totally different and separate realities from one another.....Rob

gimmethesimplelife

10-18-13, 9:17pm

You are clearly trying to miss the point.Bae, your stance here - and I am not attacking you, you get to see things how you wish in my book - is a big reason why there will always be social class lines in the US - not due to the stance, but due to the thinking and beliefs behind it. It amazes me that I could visit your world without needing a passport and vice versa.....From your stance at any rate it might prove to be a Foreign Exhange Visit or something akin to that nature.....Rob

bae

10-18-13, 9:22pm

Bae, your stance here - and I am not attacking you, you get to see things how you wish in my book - is a big reason why there will always be social class lines in the US - not due to the stance, but due to the thinking and beliefs behind it.

It's not really "social class", it's facts, from the most liberal and often poorest county in this state.

It amazes me that I could visit your world without needing a passport and vice versa.....From your stance at any rate it might prove to be a Foreign Exhange Visit or something akin to that nature.....Rob

All you need is a ferry ticket to come on over. I'd throw in one as part of the employment deal, if you want that ditch digging job.

People with almost no capital manage to find their way over here every year, roll up their sleeves, and become productive and valued members of the community, even with the difficulties of living in this remote spot. Wonder how?

try2bfrugal

10-18-13, 10:19pm

Bae, your stance here - and I am not attacking you, you get to see things how you wish in my book - is a big reason why there will always be social class lines in the US - not due to the stance, but due to the thinking and beliefs behind it. It amazes me that I could visit your world without needing a passport and vice versa.....From your stance at any rate it might prove to be a Foreign Exhange Visit or something akin to that nature.....Rob

Ten million working poor in this country and the solution for some seems simply to give lectures to roll up their sleeves, worker harder and don't soak up any of my tax dollars. I don't get it either, Rob. It is like all those stories on the news on Walmart and fast food workers not getting living wages don't exist. Ten million people is the equivalent to the entire population of Portugal.

gimmethesimplelife

10-18-13, 10:22pm

Ten million working poor in this country and the solution for some seems to be lectures to worker harder and don't soak up any of my tax dollars. I don't get it either, Rob. It is like all those stories on the news on Walmart and fast food workers not getting living wages don't exist.+1 Rob

bae

10-18-13, 10:23pm

As expected Rob.

gimmethesimplelife

10-18-13, 10:32pm

I have family in the suburbs of Boston who live in the other America....the one I am amazed I don't need a passport to visit and don't have to deal with customs officials to enter. I no longer speak to them for various reasons that have nothing to do with my point. I can't speak for everyone in that other America, only my relatives. I have never run across people who were more in direct competition with their neighbors materially and financially than these people. Also among the biggest gossip hounds I ever met, and always peeking through their curtains spying on their neighbors.

And very quick to call the city with any suspected code or ordinance violations.....including a discriminatory call to the city to report a neighboring house being rented to Puerto Ricans, the kids of which kindly offered me a soda. I'm very strong in my belief that not all better off Americans are like this - I have met some over the years who are not - but these people really made me think at a very young age and I owe them gratitude for that. My point is that other America is not without its rot, either. Rob

PS I just thought of a good example of the two Americas. Maybe this will help get my points across better? Some years ago my Aunt outside of Boston had her dentist crown all her teeth. No biggie there, I've got lots of crowns myself. One of her crowns fell out a few years later and there she is suing her dentist - including for emotional suffering. At the time I found out about this I was having toothaches off and on myself as there was no money for a luxury like a dentist. Thank goodness for Mexico is all I can say is that is how I was able to solve the problem. But slowly over time and with suffering. And my Aunt - no pain from what a cousin told me other than "emotional strain and trauma." Phrases I was told that were in her lawsuit.

Definitely two Americas. I am lucky to have discovered this young. And it's coming in useful, too, as I won't have to make the painful adjustments mentally as the standard of living continues to decline as I never really believed in the system to begin with. Ironically, that may actually help me in the future. Rob

bae

10-18-13, 10:34pm

Wow Rob.

gimmethesimplelife

10-18-13, 10:34pm

As expected Rob.Yes indeed, I am very familiar with the America of which Try2BFrugal speaks. And will always stand up for those living in that America. Rob

flowerseverywhere

10-19-13, 5:38am

I can't speak for everyone in that other America, only my relatives. I have never run across people who were more in direct competition with their neighbors materially and financially than these people. Also among the biggest gossip hounds I ever met, and always peeking through their curtains spying on their neighbors.

And very quick to call the city with any suspected code or ordinance violations.....including a discriminatory call to the city to report a neighboring house being rented to Puerto Ricans, the kids of which kindly offered me a soda. I'm very strong in my belief that not all better off Americans are like this - I have met some over the years who are not - but these people really made me think at a very young age and I owe them gratitude for that. My point is that other America is not without its rot, either. Rob

Amazing. I live in a wonderful middle/upper middle class neighborhood and I have not seen any behavior like that. Just nice people who are helpful, kind and generous. I am amazed at how many charities are helped, the huge number of families that benefit from the generosity of my neighbors. Regardless of your income level you can be a jerk. Every day you can turn on the news and read about welfare cheaters, embezzlement etc. by those who have little money. There are good and bad people of all income levels.

iris lilies

10-19-13, 11:11am

gimmethesimplelife

10-19-13, 11:14am

Amazing. I live in a wonderful middle/upper middle class neighborhood and I have not seen any behavior like that. Just nice people who are helpful, kind and generous. I am amazed at how many charities are helped, the huge number of families that benefit from the generosity of my neighbors. Regardless of your income level you can be a jerk. Every day you can turn on the news and read about welfare cheaters, embezzlement etc. by those who have little money. There are good and bad people of all income levels.I would agree with everything you have said, actually. Rob

gimmethesimplelife

10-19-13, 11:15am

I am still trying to determine the benefits of Obamacare for my household. Haven't been able to look at exchange rates on Healthcare.gov site.

I wonder when that becomes an insurmountable problem for ACA supporters? I heard they dumped another 200 million into the web site. It's only money.IL - I agree with you also. Someone really has to get that website functional pronto - it's not helping the cause of the ACA for it to be dysfunctional this long, and seems to only feed into the stereotype that government can't do anything right. Rob

ApatheticNoMore

10-19-13, 12:05pm

If the website doesn't get fixed it's getting to the point they'll have to call off the *individual* mandate for a year, it's pushing that bad. And yea that is central to the program (btw if all people wanted was Medicaid expansion a few income levels up no that does not rest on the ACA or even the mandate really I don't think, it's the complicated insurance stuff does).

I heard they dumped another 200 million into the web site. It's only money.

It actually is only money which can't alone solve technical problems but is necessary (fast, good or cheap - pick 2. But time has run out on the taking it slow option). So expensive and good it has to be. But quite honestly solving huge IT problems like they've got in the time period they've got is just ugh not easy. And they probably should just take down the website. You can solve it by massive staffing of development but then you've really got to hire good people (not senior people at all necessarily, but say people who are good at debugging - meticulous, detail oriented, anal, it's a certain skill set and mindset). So in their time period maybe they should just put the focus on QA and hire whoever for development.

People say stuff like it's architectural issues and if true they've got even bigger problems because architectural issues are not fixed quickly, and inability to handle load may very well be an architectural issue, but the website seems like it might also have just a lot of plain old bugs. And what you hear about the back-end stuff may be even worse. Is it really true people are processing files by hand because the data is so bad?!? :0!

it's not helping the cause of the ACA for it to be dysfunctional this long, and seems to only feed into the stereotype that government can't do anything right.

OTOH the state exchanges while somewhat buggy don't seem to be the complete disaster the Federal exchanges are. Don't you wish your state had it's own exchanges like mine? So state government seems to be able to do things if not exactly right and exemplary, at least not a complete disaster. You could also say that technically it's government contractors that can't do anything right. So public-private partnerships don't work. I definitely believe that sentence. Unfortunately that's what the whole ACA is (except for the medicaid part pretty much).

ApatheticNoMore

10-19-13, 12:43pm

I can't speak for everyone in that other America, only my relatives. I have never run across people who were more in direct competition with their neighbors materially and financially than these people. Also among the biggest gossip hounds I ever met, and always peeking through their curtains spying on their neighbors.

At best this describes a few upper middle class people of a very certain type (busybodies with nothing better to do with their lives). When what I feel I know well (extremely well) is the white collar middle class. And I don't think that describes them, it's completely off base. And no most of them aren't racists. In fact while not racially diverse utopia (look I think racism exists in this country), it's a racially diverse crowd.

My point is that other America is not without its rot, either.

so everything about a person isn't solely a function of income. Obviously. And there's a certain struggle you struggle with if you have more income probably not to become materialistic etc (see camel, eye of needle). But if the desire is to paint everyone earning $15 an hour or more as busybody and racist uh ... the overwhelming majority of them probably aren't (or at least no more racists than those earning less if you want to argue racism is pervasive).

I don't think the dentist thing illustrates anything about class (in fact I don't even have enough information to take a side, someone said the suit wasn't justified, but maybe if I heard the other side of the story I would think it was) beyond maybe that it's easier to mount a suit if you have money to hire a lawyer! Ok, seems a plausible enough hypothesis on the face of it, though I don't actually know the breakdown of suits across income ranges. And I figure many suits are very much justified.

gimmethesimplelife

10-19-13, 12:54pm

Here is the calculator
http://kff.org/interactive/subsidy-calculator/#state=&zip=&income-type=dollars&income=63000&employer-coverage=0&people=2&alternate-plan-family=individual&adult-count=2&adults[0][age]=56&adults[0][tobacco]=0&adults[1][age]=54&adults[1][tobacco]=0&child-count=0&child-tobacco=0

The rates I posted were for the national average. Put in your zip code and see what you come up with. But put in an income for two working people. I don't think its that unreasonable for many to make $31,500 each. Thats just over $15hr. And the quotes are for people in there 50's, not kids just out of school. I use to pay kids over $12hr for summer help, they would all make much more once they went full time. And the last time I stopped by my old office they have still been getting raises since I left in 2007.I don't know anyone who has gotten a raise in the past three years. I know people who have taken pay cuts in order to remain employed, but no one I know has actually gotten a raise, even as the cost of everyday life keeps going up, up, up.....Rob

bae

10-19-13, 1:07pm

... no one I know has actually gotten a raise, even as the cost of everyday life keeps going up, up, up.....Rob

Up, up, up! That sure sounds like a steep rise!

Which inflation statistics are you using for the last three years?

Seattle-Tacoma-Bremerton CPI - All Items (1982-84=100)

Index: Year-over- Index: Year-over- Growth rate for
1982-84=100 year change 1982-84=100 year change preceding year

Feb-11 229.482 1.5% 225.790 2.1% 0.9%
Apr-11 231.314 2.1% 228.313 2.7% 1.2%
Jun-11 233.250 3.2% 230.072 3.7% 1.8%
Aug-11 233.810 2.7% 230.558 3.2% 2.2%
Oct-11 235.916 3.8% 232.697 4.3% 2.8%
Dec-11 234.812 3.5% 231.297 3.8% 3.3%
Feb-12 235.744 2.7% 232.081 2.8% 3.4%
Apr-12 237.931 2.9% 234.808 2.8% 3.4%
Jun-12 239.540 2.7% 236.222 2.7% 3.3%
Aug-12 240.213 2.7% 236.750 2.7% 3.2%
Oct-12 241.355 2.3% 237.947 2.3% 2.8%
Dec-12 237.993 1.4% 234.588 1.4% 2.4%
Feb-13 239.898 1.8% 236.542 1.9% 2.3%
Apr-13 240.823 1.2% 237.405 1.1% 2.0%
Jun-13 242.820 1.4% 238.963 1.2% 1.8%
Aug-13 242.767 1.1% 239.343 1.1% 1.5%

ApatheticNoMore

10-19-13, 1:12pm

Inflation of course seemed much worse to me before the crash (of course raises were probably also easier to come by then). Because the housing bubbliness was starting to drive up rents. Funny noone complained about how much damage the bubble was doing to people financially.

gimmethesimplelife

10-19-13, 1:13pm

Up, up, up! That sure sounds like a steep rise!

Which inflation statistics are you using for the last three years?

Seattle-Tacoma-Bremerton CPI - All Items (1982-84=100)

Index: Year-over- Index: Year-over- Growth rate for
1982-84=100 year change 1982-84=100 year change preceding year

Feb-11 229.482 1.5% 225.790 2.1% 0.9%
Apr-11 231.314 2.1% 228.313 2.7% 1.2%
Jun-11 233.250 3.2% 230.072 3.7% 1.8%
Aug-11 233.810 2.7% 230.558 3.2% 2.2%
Oct-11 235.916 3.8% 232.697 4.3% 2.8%
Dec-11 234.812 3.5% 231.297 3.8% 3.3%
Feb-12 235.744 2.7% 232.081 2.8% 3.4%
Apr-12 237.931 2.9% 234.808 2.8% 3.4%
Jun-12 239.540 2.7% 236.222 2.7% 3.3%
Aug-12 240.213 2.7% 236.750 2.7% 3.2%
Oct-12 241.355 2.3% 237.947 2.3% 2.8%
Dec-12 237.993 1.4% 234.588 1.4% 2.4%
Feb-13 239.898 1.8% 236.542 1.9% 2.3%
Apr-13 240.823 1.2% 237.405 1.1% 2.0%
Jun-13 242.820 1.4% 238.963 1.2% 1.8%
Aug-13 242.767 1.1% 239.343 1.1% 1.5%
That's not the rate of inflation I am seeing at the Hispanic grocery store chains (lowest prices overall in Phoenix) and at thrift shops, nor those few times I buy anything new. Electronics are getting cheaper, I do see that, but nothing else is and I do believe the government is cooking the book on these inflation numbers. Rob

bae

10-19-13, 1:15pm

... and I do believe the government is cooking the book on these inflation numbers. Rob

And what is your basis for that belief? How many people are involved in this effort to cook the books, and are any of them blowing the whistle? If not, why are they all remaining silent?

try2bfrugal

10-19-13, 3:20pm

And what is your basis for that belief? How many people are involved in this effort to cook the books, and are any of them blowing the whistle? If not, why are they all remaining silent?

They aren't remaining silent. It is a widely written about topic -

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-inflation-understated-due-to-trio-of-factors-pimcos-gross

http://business.time.com/2012/03/06/youre-already-the-victim-of-inflation/ (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-inflation-understated-due-to-trio-of-factors-pimcos-gross)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidmarotta/2013/05/01/cpi-inflation-rate-calculator-experienced-vs-reported/

bae

10-19-13, 3:32pm

They aren't remaining silent.

The "they" in Rob's post, the one I was responding to with my questions, was "the government"...

try2bfrugal

10-19-13, 6:05pm

The "they" in Rob's post, the one I was responding to with my questions, was "the government"...

Cooking the books in terms of most articles on CPI accuracy mean people suspect that the calculations used to create the CPI are fundamentally logic flawed, not that there are deliberate math errors as a result of criminal activity on the part those who calculate the inflation numbers, as in this article -

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/97apr/econhist.htm

gimmethesimplelife

10-19-13, 8:58pm

Cooking the books in terms of most articles on CPI accuracy mean people suspect that the calculations used to create the CPI are fundamentally logic flawed, not that there are deliberate math errors as a result of criminal activity on the part those who calculate the inflation numbers, as in this article -

http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/97apr/econhist.htmThis is what I was getting at, yes. Thanks Try2bfrugal. I also believe the unemployment figures are cooked much the same way - a case in point would be if one gets layed off, draws unemployment, looks for work but finds nothing, and ends out exhausting unemployment, that person is technically not unemployed if they stop looking for work due to discouragement. Similar kinds of logic apply to inflation figures, too. Rob

Bartleby

10-22-13, 2:29am

They aren't remaining silent. It is a widely written about topic -

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-inflation-understated-due-to-trio-of-factors-pimcos-gross

http://business.time.com/2012/03/06/youre-already-the-victim-of-inflation/ (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-inflation-understated-due-to-trio-of-factors-pimcos-gross)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidmarotta/2013/05/01/cpi-inflation-rate-calculator-experienced-vs-reported/

Bae, I assume you are famliar with the criticism of the CPI. Would be interested in hearing your views on this issue, if any.

B

Spartana

10-22-13, 5:24pm

I don't know anyone who has gotten a raise in the past three years. I know people who have taken pay cuts in order to remain employed, but no one I know has actually gotten a raise, even as the cost of everyday life keeps going up, up, up.....Rob I'm with you on this Rob. Not only have I seen many people move from higher paying jobs into lower paying jobs, it seems most haven't had any pay raises - and some have even had pay cuts or reduced hours (or both) in order to stay employed. Here in very expensive Orange County, CAa large number of people are on minimum wage - $8/hour - and often work several p/t jobs to make even a basic living. Some who work f/t and get benefits often have reduced hours of 30/week and have to pick up a large portion of their employer healthcare costs (Walmart is infamous for doing both). Often times the jobs are in the service sector with crazy hours so it makes it difficult to get a second job.

So that kind of thing - coupled with having to pay FICA and all the other employment axes people have to pay on their incomes - may account for why you know people who work f/t but have seemingly lower incomes.

However, and on this I agree with Bae, there are alot of well paying jobs out there that don't require advanced skills or education if people are willing to move. Places like the Keystone pipeline and Halliburton have hundreds (maybe thousands) of high paying jobs available. But, like generations past who had to move to improve their lives, people often have to be willing to do the same if needed.

Spartana

10-22-13, 5:37pm

OK here's what I found out my situation with obamacare would be. Because my taxable income is under $12k/year - out of a total income of around $18k annually (and my non-taxable income cannot be used when calculating for obamacare) - I can only get medicaid not subsidies. If I go back to work part time to increase my taxable income level, then I still wouldn't get subsidies if I continued to get my military service-connected injuries and disability treated by the VA and remain signed up with the VA since you can't have both the VA and subsidies. If I dumped te VA medical, and increased my taxable income to $16,000with employment, then I could get fully subsidized for all plans with a montly premium of just $1 and minimal out of pocket with a silver or higher plan. So, if I want to keep using the VA - and I do - but want other health insurance besides medicaid or the VA (and I do), I will have to pay for my own insurance at full cost - which, depending on the plan I choose - will be approx. $400 - $500/month with an out of pocket annual of approx. $4,000 - $7000

Bethers

10-24-13, 2:42pm

I can only get medicaid not subsidies.

Honestly, no one really knows what they'll make in 2014, it's estimated income. Personally, I would plug in the subsidy income amount and work it out on the tax forms in 2015 (ie paid too much - they owe you; paid too little - you owe them). If you get money back and don't feel good about it, maybe you could donate it to a charity or good cause.

Spartana

10-24-13, 3:36pm

Honestly, no one really knows what they'll make in 2014, it's estimated income. Personally, I would plug in the subsidy income amount and work it out on the tax forms in 2015 (ie paid too much - they owe you; paid too little - you owe them). If you get money back and don't feel good about it, maybe you could donate it to a charity or good cause.
Well I took an early retirement and so know exactly how much I'll get on my fixed income pension (taxable) and Veterans benefit (non-taxable). But even if I did get p/t job or fudged the numbers I can't get subsidies anyways because I use the VA hospital for my military service connected injuries/disability - and you aren't allowed to use both the VA as well as get subsidies. So I've decided to not buy any health insurance and will just use the VA for all my care whether service connected or not. Kind of scary though considering their not very good rep (although I've never had a problem) and the potential of gov shutdown or funding changes.

Bethers

10-24-13, 6:12pm

Spartana

10-25-13, 3:52pm

I understand you have ethical concerns with dual eligibility Medicaid and VA. Would you feel any different if you could somehow make a charitable contribution for the Medicaid benefit? It seems like a win-win for all involved.

I have a friend on VA. She’s been really happy with the service, but the facility is quite a distance away. She has an additional temporary policy (6-12 months) too as she’s concerned about possibly needing emergency treatment and it not being covered. She’s working and will probably shop the exchange for a policy after the temp coverage ends. I'm not on VA and have a temp policy too which ends in December. I had some trouble accessing my state (WA) exchange at the beginning of the month and need to try again soon.

You're right, I would feel guilty going on medicaid for the next decade or more until I was old enough for medicare as I do think of it as a welfare program to help the temporarily or permanently needy - and I'm far from needy even if I am low income by choice. But I after trying to buy a plan outside of the exchanges and seeing the costs, I have just decided to stay with the VA and hope for the best. As a veteran who was wounded and has a permanent disability while in the line of duty, I have less ethical qualms about using the VA - although I have qualms about using them for care - then I would going on medicaid. I do plan to keep looking for a private policy though but have had no luck so far. I guess rising costs and plan changes are becoming common as they have been talking about it on the news a lot. Apparently many people who can get subsidies will still see higher premiums and deductibles then they were paying even before the ACA due to the requirements of expanded coverage. Of course those who had preexisting conditions and very high premiums before the ACA will see much lower premiums and probably much more expanded care. The Blue Cross CEO was on TV the other night basicly saying that many people will see dramatic price increases and others will see dramatic price decreases and that thy, as well as most other insurers in CA will be dropping lower cost coverage for hundreds of thousands of their policy holders who will have to buy more expensive policies on the exchange starting Jan 1.