Perhaps a good side effect or two due to ObamaCare?

[gimmethesimplelife]

I'm wondering if some of the conservative rhetoric against ObamaCare is due to a wish to keep people chained to jobs so that employers retain control over employees - due to health care being offered on the job? I'm also wondering if one of the effects of ObamaCare will be a stream of people who have just had it starting up their own businesses due to being able to acquire affordable healthcare on their own, with no employer necessary?

I also read an article yesterday that stated that temp and P/T jobs are becoming the new normal - but the article didn't trash ObamaCare as a reason for this. It went on to praise P/T work in the sense that working P/T would give people more of a chance to start their own business and be free of the workplace and what it has become. I can see that this is not for everyone but for me this idea works.....Rob

[bae]

Doesn't seem reasonable, Rob. Having been a large employer, I'll tell you that dealing with healthcare policies and paperwork for employees is a royal pain in the bleep, and requires people, effort, and money to be applied to something that is outside the core competency of the company.

Most every company bigwig I've ever spoken to would love to have their companies out of involvement in the healthcare mess. Companies these days typically also don't like being on the hook for providing food, clothing, shelter, and entertainment to their employees. They instead provide their employees something called "money", which the employees then trade with the vendor of their choosing to purchase what they wish.

[try2bfrugal]

I'm wondering if some of the conservative rhetoric against ObamaCare is due to a wish to keep people chained to jobs so that employers retain control over employees - due to health care being offered on the job? I'm also wondering if one of the effects of ObamaCare will be a stream of people who have just had it starting up their own businesses due to being able to acquire affordable healthcare on their own, with no employer necessary?


I have wondered that, too. I also think once Obamacare is up and running, people will like it, just like Medicare and Social Security are popular, and it will create more Democratic voters that see the benefits of social welfare programs.

As a self employed person, I am very happy to have affordable insurance without having to get a full time job just for the insurance benefits. This frees up a regular job for someone else who might really need it. Not tying health insurance to a job should serve to make the employment market more efficient.

Before India and other less developed countries got into programming, for my last regular job I used to go to England to hire contract programmers. I realize now the UK had a good pool of contract workers to choose from because people there were not tied to salaried employment because of health care.

[lac]

I'm hoping the ACA is successful. It's a shame that full-time employment is the main option to access affordable health care insurance.

[IshbelRobertson]

The idea that healthcare is tied to employment is a really weird concept to most of us living outwith the USA -and quite frightening. If you need constant monitoring for permanent health concerns, this would give nightmares.

[Aqua Blue]

The idea that healthcare is tied to employment is a really weird concept to most of us living outwith the USA -and quite frightening. If you need constant monitoring for permanent health concerns, this would give nightmares.

It has given me nightmares, unfortunately one you can't wake up from. I am very thankful for Obamacare!

[gimmethesimplelife]

It has given me nightmares, unfortunately one you can't wake up from. I am very thankful for Obamacare!I started having nightmares about US health care when I was 12.....it was horrible to be so young and grow up so fast about such a basic human right and how the US is all about profits over people. Rob

[dmc]

I started having nightmares about US health care when I was 12.....it was horrible to be so young and grow up so fast about such a basic human right and how the US is all about profits over people. Rob

Why didn't you go into the Health Care field ? It pays well and maybe you could have made a difference.

[Spartana]

The idea that healthcare is tied to employment is a really weird concept to most of us living outwith the USA -and quite frightening. If you need constant monitoring for permanent health concerns, this would give nightmares. Health insurance isn't tied to employment in the USA as any one can purchase it directly from a private insurer. I did that when I quit my job as have many people I know - including my sister - when they became unemployed, self employed or early retired. It can even be very affordable if you don't have pre-existing health issues. Both my, as well as my sister's coverage she had prior to employment, was less expensive and more comprehensive then they would be under Obamacare. However, insurance companies often raise prices or completely drop coverage for any little medical condition making insurance very unaffordable or even unavailable for even well to do people. And they can choose to deny coverage to many people. This doesn't happen with employer sponsered insurance because employers contract for lower group rates which won't allow an insurance company to drop a person in poor health and also can keep rates lower for all emploees. Also employers usually pick up a portion of the monthly premium for it's employees as a benefit. The hope is that Obamacare will help those without employer medical insurance to be able to have both affordable coverage as well as not be able to be denied coverage or dropped if they have a medical condition.

[try2bfrugal]

Health insurance isn't tied to employment in the USA as any one can purchase it directly from a private insurer.

Anyone with pre-existing conditions preACA could not get private health insurance. The insurance companies cherry pick only the healthiest individuals. One in two Americans has a pre-existing condition -

http://aspe.hhs.gov/health/reports/2012/pre-existing/#Pre

And without the ACA or employer subsidies, many of the other 50% were uninsured because they couldn't afford the premiums.

So no, not anyone can purchase it from a private insurer preACA. Only a fraction of the uninsured were able to do that either due to cost or pre-existing conditions. Health insurance has been basically tied to employment in the U.S. since wage controls of WWII.

[Spartana]

Anyone with pre-existing conditions preACA could not get private health insurance. The insurance companies cherry pick only the healthiest individuals. One in two Americans has a pre-existing condition -

http://aspe.hhs.gov/health/reports/2012/pre-existing/#Pre

And without the ACA or employer subsidies, many of the other 50% were uninsured because they couldn't afford the premiums.

So no, not anyone can purchase it from a private insurer preACA. Only a fraction of the uninsured were able to do that either due to cost or pre-existing conditions. Health insurance has been basically tied to employment in the U.S. since wage controls of WWII.

I addresed all that in my post too but wanted to let Ishbel, who is from Scotland, to know that a person can buy - or at least try to buy - health insurance without having to be employed. Also both and and my sister had pre existing conditions and were able to buy fairly inexpensive plans so that is flexible depending on the insurance company.

[Alan]

Anyone with pre-existing conditions preACA could not get private health insurance. The insurance companies cherry pick only the healthiest individuals.
That's the nature of insurance. You're asking someone else to evaluate and then assume the cost of the risk you bring to the table. It's not cherry picking, it's a proper analysis of risk vs reward.

I wonder if the ACA mandates have put all the insurance company actuaries out of work since the analysis of risk seems to have been dis-allowed.

[bae]

I wonder if the ACA mandates have put all the insurance company actuaries out of work since the analysis of risk seems to have been dis-allowed.

It's not really insurance then, it's simple cost-sharing across the population.

I wonder how they solve the rationing problem?

[Alan]

It's not really insurance then, it's simple cost-sharing across the population.


You're right, it's no longer insurance.


I wonder how they solve the rationing problem?
That's a good question. Wish I had an answer.

[Rogar]

My biggest issue with the ACA was maybe 2 out of 3 of the folks I knew who could not afford health insurance could somehow afford cigarettes, booze, smart phones, cable TV, etc., or had a lack of employment motivation. Unfortunately, the third person of my informal survey was truely in need to avoid a catastrophic health financial or health problem. I guess that is all water under the bridge now and given time we will either grow to like it or will see how it is failing.

[Spartana]

It's not really insurance then, it's simple cost-sharing across the population.

I wonder how they solve the rationing problem? But it's what employer sponsered health insurance does. The insurance company gives the same rate to all employees across the board irregardless of their actual health risks and potential costs will be. I'm sure they assume some will use it more then others do thus off setting the costs and hey are willing to risk that they will still profit

[try2bfrugal]

My biggest issue with the ACA was maybe 2 out of 3 of the folks I knew who could not afford health insurance could somehow afford cigarettes, booze, smart phones, cable TV, etc., or had a lack of employment motivation. Unfortunately, the third person of my informal survey was truely in need to avoid a catastrophic health financial or health problem. I guess that is all water under the bridge now and given time we will either grow to like it or will see how it is failing.

Would you deny other social services to families who smoke and have cable, like public school educations, on the grounds that they should use that money to pay for school?

[try2bfrugal]

It's not really insurance then, it's simple cost-sharing across the population.

I wonder how they solve the rationing problem?

Death panels, of course, just like the ones they have in Denmark, Switzerland, Canada, Australia, France, the UK, and all the other developed countries in the world.

[Spartana]

Would you deny other social services to families who smoke and have cable, like public school educations, on the grounds that they should use that money to pay for school?

I think the difference is that public school is a true socialist service that everyone is entitled to iregardless of income and the ACA isn't. So that those who are footing the bill aren't able to partake of the program themselves.

[gimmethesimplelife]

That's the nature of insurance. You're asking someone else to evaluate and then assume the cost of the risk you bring to the table. It's not cherry picking, it's a proper analysis of risk vs reward.

I wonder if the ACA mandates have put all the insurance company actuaries out of work since the analysis of risk seems to have been dis-allowed.And this here, your last sentence, is a big problem I have with health care in America. To me it is unforgivable that health care has been done on a for profit basis with the underlying risk vs. reward model. To me as I have stated many many times, health care is a basic human right, not something that should be exposed to risk vs. reward criteria. I applaud ObamaCare for moving health care away from this model that puts profits over people, and I seriously wonder, how do I forgive America for all these years of making health care so non accessible to so many people? Rob

[Alan]

But it's what employer sponsered health insurance does. The insurance company gives the same rate to all employees across the board irregardless of their actual health risks and potential costs will be. ...
Not exactly, group rates are adjusted to reflect the overall cost of the group in the same way that individual policy holder rates are adjusted to reflect the historical costs per individual.

[Alan]

And this here, your last sentence, is a big problem I have with health care in America. To me it is unforgivable that health care has been done on a for profit basis with the underlying risk vs. reward model. To me as I have stated many many times, health care is a basic human right, not something that should be exposed to risk vs. reward criteria. I applaud ObamaCare for moving health care away from this model that puts profits over people, and I seriously wonder, how do I forgive America for all these years of making health care so non accessible to so many people? Rob
I think you're confusing insurance with health care, they're two separate things. Perhaps the real question is by what moral imperative can you justify transferring the cost of your services to someone else if you disallow the possibility of profit?

[bae]

Death panels, of course, just like the ones they have in Denmark, Switzerland, Canada, Australia, France, the UK, and all the other developed countries in the world.

Perhaps you are joking, I haven't looked into their solutions.

I do know that in the real world, absent unlimited resources, triage happens. I've had days on duty here where we had 3 critical patients needing transport, and only the resources to get 2 of them off, and you have to have a little discussion about who lives, and who dies. It's....educational.

http://www.propublica.org/article/the-deadly-choices-at-memorial-826

[try2bfrugal]

I think the difference is that public school is a true socialist service that everyone is entitled to iregardless of income and the ACA isn't. So that those who are footing the bill aren't able to partake of the program themselves.

I don't have any kids in public school yet I am expected to pay property taxes to support public education. I am not partaking of the educational system any more. We have neighbors that never had any kids that also pay property taxes and are expected to support public schools.

[try2bfrugal]

Perhaps you are joking, I haven't looked into their solutions.

I do know that in the real world, absent unlimited resources, triage happens. I've had days on duty here where we had 3 critical patients needing transport, and only the resources to get 2 of them off, and you have to have a little discussion about who lives, and who dies. It's....educational.

http://www.propublica.org/article/the-deadly-choices-at-memorial-826

I am mocking Fox News.

Other developed countries and government-involved health insurance and seemed to have solved the issue of rationing as many have higher rated health care systems than the U.S.

[Rogar]

Would you deny other social services to families who smoke and have cable, like public school educations, on the grounds that they should use that money to pay for school?
I guess that question, in principle, is the crux of many government programs some call entitlements. Where do you draw the line.

I think my point was that the perception that people without insurance can't afford it is not totally accurate. Many just choose to not have a basic high deductible policy and instead spend that money on vices or what I consider luxuries. As a result we all foot the bill with our taxes. Maybe there is no way separate out those who really do need help. If we were all crickets or ants it would be easier to tell who was fiddling away and who was saving up for winter.

[bae]

Other developed countries and government-involved health insurance and seemed to have solved the issue of rationing as many have higher rated health care systems than the U.S.

And what are their solutions?

[try2bfrugal]

And what are their solutions?

Something other than this -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_panel

[gimmethesimplelife]

I think you're confusing insurance with health care, they're two separate things. Perhaps the real question is by what moral imperative can you justify transferring the cost of your services to someone else if you disallow the possibility of profit?Human life is worth such to me.....To me this is pretty much non negotiable, and I could not live with myself if I thought differently. Rob

[bae]

Something other than this -


Not being a follower of Fox News, I re-ask: So what *do* they do to deal with the rationing problem? Resources are not infinite, yat demand for medical care tends to be nearly infinite, especially when cost isn't an issue to the person with the demand.

[Alan]

Human life is worth such to me.....To me this is pretty much non negotiable, and I could not live with myself if I thought differently. Rob
Human life is priceless to me. My question to you is, by what right can I expect someone else to pay that price for me?

[bae]

Human life is worth such to me.....To me this is pretty much non negotiable, and I could not live with myself if I thought differently. Rob

Are you a volunteer EMT/Paramedic/First Responder, Rob? Easy enough to do, and there's always a demand.

[Lainey]

Death panels, of course, just like the ones they have in Denmark, Switzerland, Canada, Australia, France, the UK, and all the other developed countries in the world.

:D

[Lainey]

I don't have any kids in public school yet I am expected to pay property taxes to support public education. I am not partaking of the educational system any more. We have neighbors that never had any kids that also pay property taxes and are expected to support public schools.

And of course most people here went to public schools themselves, so think of it as paying back what the earlier generation of taxpayers did for you when you were growing up.

[try2bfrugal]

Not being a follower of Fox News, I re-ask: So what *do* they do to deal with the rationing problem? Resources are not infinite, yat demand for medical care tends to be nearly infinite, especially when cost isn't an issue to the person with the demand.

I don't know what exactly what they do. But the other countries with state involved health care are already there to learn from and emulate. I have a lot of family in the EU and I am surprised at the heroic health care measures they get even in advanced ages. Maybe because they have cost controls in place it isn't as big an issue.

We still get rationing here. One of my family members had to have surgery and the insurance company refused one of the pre-hospitalization tests the surgeon ordered. They also approved X number of days for the hospital stay. I don't know what happens if the doctor wants a longer stay. I guess we fork over the money.

[try2bfrugal]

And of course most people here went to public schools themselves, so think of it as paying back what the earlier generation of taxpayers did for you when you were growing up.

That was my point with the ACA. With other social service programs like Social Security, Medicare and public schools, you don't necessarily get back what you put in, so why should the ACA be held to a different standard. I had a relative on Medicare with over $1M in medical bills. I don't see why he should get $1M of tax payer funded health care and 50 million other citizens pre-ACA would have zero health insurance.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Human life is priceless to me. My question to you is, by what right can I expect someone else to pay that price for me?To answer your question, Alan, in regards to health care, in America you can't. In every other country in the developed world you can. Doesn't say much for the United States, does it? Imagine seeing through this at the age of 12 as I did..... Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Are you a volunteer EMT/Paramedic/First Responder, Rob? Easy enough to do, and there's always a demand.Bae, I have thought of this. And you are right, there is always a demand. I am going back to school in January full time and will be studying Web Design and Development - I have decided this is where my interests lie and that I want to move towards self employment. But you do have a point, yes. Rob

[bae]

Bae, I have thought of this. And you are right, there is always a demand.


With just a few hours' investment of time, you can have up-to-date CPR training, learn to recognize the symptoms of a stroke, and develop 4-5 other high-priority skills. Which can, and does, save lives. Anyone who purports to value human life should at least invest this amount of effort, especially if they are talking about how "society" needs to take care of folks...

"Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one." - Marcus Aurelius Antoninus Augustus

[gimmethesimplelife]

With just a few hours' investment of time, you can have up-to-date CPR training, learn to recognize the symptoms of a stroke, and develop 4-5 other high-priority skills. Which can, and does, save lives. Anyone who purports to value human life should at least invest this amount of effort, especially if they are talking about how "society" needs to take care of folks...

"Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one." - Marcus Aurelius Antoninus AugustusFair enough, Bae. Good point. I don't disagree with you. Rob

[iris lilies]

:D

If there aren't death panels to put limits on what the gubmnt determines must be covered by insurance we are all doomed. 'Course they will be gubermnetal death panels. :doh:Bring on the death panels, that's what I say.

Oh wait, we are already pretty much doomed to financial insolvency by ACA and etc that Congress determines we must have.

[Spartana]

Not exactly, group rates are adjusted to reflect the overall cost of the group in the same way that individual policy holder rates are adjusted to reflect the historical costs per individual.
Probably one reason employers like younger employees - keeps their overall medical insurance and sick time down. Of course that same statistic can be used for the general US population as a whole and rates adjusted to reflect the group rather than the individual - especially when you consider we already subsidize/provide care for those elderly on medicare anyways. The under 65 population may pay more overall in premiums, deductibles and co pays then they use. For example - I paid premiums for 14 years to Blue Cross but never used them once.

ETA - of course I just realized that all those premiums, co pays and deductibles (plus any government subsidies) will all benefit private insurance companies rather than reduce taxes and government spending. Oops! More money to pay higher wages to their CEO's :-)

[Spartana]

I don't have any kids in public school yet I am expected to pay property taxes to support public education. I am not partaking of the educational system any more. We have neighbors that never had any kids that also pay property taxes and are expected to support public schools.
I also do not have kids and pay taxes towards public school gladly. Just as I would gladly pay more in taxes for public healthcare for all. However, unlike public schools, we don't have public healthcare only welfare for the needy who cannot pay for it themselves. And technically the ACA is a welfare program for low income people. Therefore I don't think there is anything wrong with questioning the spending on luxury items of those who are asking for public assistance to pay for things they claim they can't pay for themselves. I actually think it's the prudent thing to do.

[Spartana]

With just a few hours' investment of time, you can have up-to-date CPR training, learn to recognize the symptoms of a stroke, and develop 4-5 other high-priority skills. Which can, and does, save lives. Anyone who purports to value human life should at least invest this amount of effort, especially if they are talking about how "society" needs to take care of folks...

"Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one." - Marcus Aurelius Antoninus Augustus
All well and good and something of great value to others - and I've done my fair share :-) - but our current healthcare system (pre-ACA at least) doesn't really take care of many of the folks in need medically. At least without bankrupting themselves first in many cases. While I'm not a big fan of HOW the ACA is structured, at least it will allow a safety net for many middle-class folks who could plummet into poverty by just one illness or injury.